Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: earl1937 on March 30, 2015, 08:45:06 AM
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:airplane: I got blasted for being weary of engineers and computer generated flight systems, lets re-visit the Lockhedd L-188 series of aircraft and its record of accidents. Wonderful aircraft, carrying 98 passengers and a joy to fly, but it had a flaw, which killed a lot of people until they figured out what the problem was.
Anybody care to tell us what the problem was and how they fixed it?
Again, the "chunky monkeys" sitting behind a desk with a pencil in his hand, had a lot to do with this fiasco!
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It was a harmonization problem that caused structural failure. The solution was to beef up just about everything on the wing--engine mounts, skins, etc.
I seem to recall a former Electra driver telling me certain power settings were also prohibited but that may have been another airplane.
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(http://www.dalefalk.com/Other/RV-Electra/i-PS6jTm8/0/L/frontview-L.jpg)
This happened in 1983. Reeve Electra out of Cold Bay noticed vibration on climb. Short time later the gearbox and prop came off #4, ticked the intake on #3 then saw a gash through the fuselage severing/jamming elevator and throttle cables. They diverted to Anchorage and landed on the second approach. As a young crash rig operator it was an eventful shift.
More photos here. (http://www.dalefalk.com/Other/RV-Electra/35518718_qRmTLd#!i=2982054005&k=PS6jTm8) I think the video of the landing is on the 'net as well.
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Kudos to the pilots :aok God bless the stick and rudder guys :airplane:
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Kudos to the pilots :aok God bless the stick and rudder guys :airplane:
:airplane: Don't mean to appear to rub anything in, but wonder how a computer would have handled this little deal?
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:airplane: Don't mean to appear to rub anything in, but wonder how a computer would have handled this little deal?
You aren't rubbing it in. You made the point about automation. There still has to be a pilot when the computer melts down, the gear box comes apart and starts the self destruction process. Stick and rudder are the bottom line basics.
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:airplane: Don't mean to appear to rub anything in, but wonder how a computer would have handled this little deal?
I don't think you are, heck that was the first thing I thought. It's why I typed in my praise for the stick and rudder guys. I thought the points you made were excellent ( and agree with them) I throughly enjoy reading your posts, expecially given your background :salute
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You aren't rubbing it in. You made the point about automation. There still has to be a pilot when the computer melts down, the gear box comes apart and starts the self destruction process. Stick and rudder are the bottom line basics.
Agree 100% well put.
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maybe for now..
you're kidding yourself if you think technology wont be able to do it in the future.
i wonder how many lives have been saved throughout the years because of autopilots, tcas, etc. etc. -- all the things that help prevent pilots from making mistakes and killing everyone on a daily basis.
remember, when all is said and done, pilot error is the cause of more than half of the fatal accidents.
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maybe for now..
you're kidding yourself if you think technology wont be able to do it in the future.
i wonder how many lives have been saved throughout the years because of autopilots, tcas, etc. etc. -- all the things that help prevent pilots from making mistakes and killing everyone on a daily basis.
remember, when all is said and done, pilot error is the cause of more than half of the fatal accidents.
:airplane: while I don't disagree with what you said, I think a lot of the so called pilot errors, you could trace back to something lacking in his or her training. The accident in Buffalo, N.Y. a few years back comes to mind. That guy had already flunked some check rides and other red flags over the years pointed out, he should have never been in the left seat to begin with. The gal in the right seat was more interested in impressing him than paying attention to what the aircraft was doing, according to the voice recorder.
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Locheed Electra's were/are beautiful aircraft IMO, both types....obviously the first more than the second....but still.
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(http://www.dalefalk.com/Other/RV-Electra/i-PS6jTm8/0/L/frontview-L.jpg)
This happened in 1983. Reeve Electra out of Cold Bay noticed vibration on climb. Short time later the gearbox and prop came off #4, ticked the intake on #3 then saw a gash through the fuselage severing/jamming elevator and throttle cables. They diverted to Anchorage and landed on the second approach. As a young crash rig operator it was an eventful shift.
More photos here. (http://www.dalefalk.com/Other/RV-Electra/35518718_qRmTLd#!i=2982054005&k=PS6jTm8) I think the video of the landing is on the 'net as well.
I'm sure many know the "air crash investigation" documentary series. This was IMO one of the most amazing incidents depicted in the series. Just amazing job by the air crew.
They sure earned their paychecks that day! :salute
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They sure earned their paychecks that day! :salute
Indeed! Pure stick and rudder skills at work.
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They sure earned their paychecks that day! :salute
They didn't have throttle control of the engines. To reduce thrust for the approach they shutdown #2. The first approach they were a bit high and much too fast which was obvious as they passed where I positioned in my crash truck. I was very afraid that I was going to witness them go off the end of the runway and crash so it was with relief, and amazement, when I saw the gear start back into the wells and the airplane started an ever so gentle climb for the go around.
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They didn't have throttle control of the engines. To reduce thrust for the approach they shutdown #2. The first approach they were a bit high and much too fast which was obvious as they passed where I positioned in my crash truck. I was very afraid that I was going to witness them go off the end of the runway and crash so it was with relief, and amazement, when I saw the gear start back into the wells and the airplane started an ever so gentle climb for the go around.
Want to tell your story of what happened when they landed? :x
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Want to tell your story of what happened when they landed? :x
Would love to hear it if you want to tell it sir!! :salute
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Well, they landed. :)
They touched down at about the mid-point of a 10,600' runway, shutdown all the engines and applied the emergency braking system which locked the main gear brakes, the sliding tires on both gear caught fire. They were able to keep it on the runway until slowing enough to lose rudder control where the airplane veered left going off the left side of the runway. As the burning main gear hit the soft dirt the wheel fires were mostly extinguished. Just as the aircraft was stopping the nose wheel dropped into ditch causing the airplane to jerk left and end up with the tail sticking up somewhat as you can see in the photos. The crew deployed the slides and all exited, no injuries. One of the photos I linked too shows the deformation on the interior of the fuselage above where the prop sliced through the belly. Those in the back said they could see the airplane flexing while in flight.
Link to video of the landing. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AUhpx_ucxc)
The sound is not synched correctly to the video. When the video is showing the first approach and go around you here radio traffic between the Shift Commander and I where I tell him I can see a large hole in the fuselage. That conversation was when they first arrived overhead at about 6000'.
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I beg forgiveness, I know this is an Electra thread but I couldnt help myself.
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/ConstellationBanking11oClock_zpspwknujet.jpg)
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3350s sound much nicer than them stinky Allison turbines.
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:aok
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I beg forgiveness, I know this is an Electra thread but I couldnt help myself.
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/ConstellationBanking11oClock_zpspwknujet.jpg)
What a beautiful plane, always will be. the fuselage curved from nose to tail, not a straight edge on it. I wonder if the fuselage acted as a lifting force with that shape and I also have to then wonder if the shape was that way to produce lift intentionally.
We had big fins on cars back then too!
No, not the ones that play Aces High and post naked hot tub pictures..................
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What a beautiful plane, always will be. the fuselage curved from nose to tail, not a straight edge on it. I wonder if the fuselage acted as a lifting force with that shape and I also have to then wonder if the shape was that way to produce lift intentionally.
We had big fins on cars back then too!
No, not the ones that play Aces High and post naked hot tub pictures..................
:airplane: funny thing happened when they started designing Jet aircraft for the airlines! all the beauty in the aircraft when away, except the 747!
I realize they started having to play with drag consideration with the jets, but the big "iron" engine aircraft should were a lot prettier!
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:airplane: funny thing happened when they started designing Jet aircraft for the airlines! all the beauty in the aircraft when away, except the 747!
I realize they started having to play with drag consideration with the jets, but the big "iron" engine aircraft should were a lot prettier!
i think the shorter 737's look great.
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/favvc10a.jpg)
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(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/de-havilland-comet_34838_zpsourzos3i.jpg)
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(http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-global/dims3/GLOB/resize/550x600/http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2012/05/02-belphegor.jpg)
We had a sign in the nose of the B-24: Jets are for kids
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/9837650_orig.png)
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/9837650_orig.png)
:airplane: Is this the "Wellington"?
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No, the Wellington was beautiful by comparison to that thing. The Armstrong Whitworth Whitley.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_Whitworth_Whitley
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No, the Wellington was beautiful by comparison to that thing. The Armstrong Whitworth Whitley.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_Whitworth_Whitley
:joystick: what ever it is, its "butt ugly"
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Just goes to show that while there were beautiful aircraft flying in yesteryears long gone, there were also many mongrels like the Whitley. Most planes today may seem bland, but that's because we're used to the sleek lines of modern planes that would have been considered outrageously gorgeous and futuristic in the 1930's and '40s.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/duke_4.jpg)
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Just goes to show that while there were beautiful aircraft flying in yesteryears long gone, there were also many mongrels like the Whitley. Most planes today may seem bland, but that's because we're used to the sleek lines of modern planes that would have been considered outrageously gorgeous and futuristic in the 1930's and '40s.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/duke_4.jpg)
:airplane: Is this a "Sweargian conversion of a King air?
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Compared to some French a/c of the same time period the Whitley is beautiful.
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:airplane: Is this a "Sweargian conversion of a King air?
Looks like a modernized version of a Beechcraft Duke.
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Yes it's a Duke.
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And yes, it's "modernized". More precisely a turbine conversion. The rest of the plane is the same as other late model Dukes. 4000 fpm climb rate and 300+ kts cruise speed.