General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ghi on April 28, 2015, 09:15:49 PM
Title: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: ghi on April 28, 2015, 09:15:49 PM
Interesting way to save the world from warming :rock :banana:
"Making e-diesel requires several steps, which are powered by renewable energy sources such as wind and solar. High-temperature electrolysis splits water, heated to form steam, into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen is released into the atmosphere while the hydrogen is fed into a reactor, where it reacts with CO2 to form a liquid long-form hydrocarbon known as “blue crude.” Audi says the efficiency of the overall process is “very high”—about 70 percent.
“The engine runs quieter and fewer pollutants are created,” says sunfire Chief Technology Officer Christian von Olshausen. He says the demonstration facility, which opened in November, can produce up to 160 liters (42 gallons) per day, but a bigger plant could follow."
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: Masherbrum on April 28, 2015, 09:39:17 PM
No thanks. They cannot even design an effective water pump for a 1.8L turbocharged engine.
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: pembquist on April 28, 2015, 11:44:27 PM
It seems to me the question is how much energy does it take to extract CO2 from the air and how much energy does it take to complete the reactions to produce the fuel vs how much energy it takes to make/charge a battery. I assume that a chief attraction of this system is that the density of power per Kg of fuel surpasses by orders of magnitude the equivalent performing battery or fuel cell systems. This may make sense for weight critical applications such as aviation but shouldn't the overall efficiency be the guiding light in more prosaic terrestrial applications such as motorcars or truck transport? Isn't the low efficiency heat engine (see Carnot) a technological dead end?
Have you ever had a good red Ale? I've had morenacouple.
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: zack1234 on April 29, 2015, 01:41:43 AM
Do you use this in your Il2?
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: rpm on April 29, 2015, 02:25:35 AM
Will it work in a fiberglass engine?
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: JOACH1M on April 29, 2015, 07:42:28 AM
Looks good on paper, doubt it will work as good as it sounds...
On another note, Porsche is working on an variable compression engine! Now that is cool! :rock
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: craz07 on April 29, 2015, 08:40:06 AM
Anything going in this direction is a good thing hopefully it will be a great thing...
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 29, 2015, 09:56:47 AM
It's an improved Fischer–Tropsch process. The same process Germany used to make avgas from coal during WWII. Apparently it is around 70% energy efficient and only need water (for the hydrogen) and air (for the carbon).
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: oboe on April 29, 2015, 10:41:47 AM
It's an improved Fischer–Tropsch process. The same process Germany used to make avgas from coal during WWII. Apparently it is around 70% energy efficient and only need water (for the hydrogen) and air (for the carbon).
That seems dubious to me - they don't say where they are getting the CO2, but you're saying they extract from the air? The concentration of CO2 in air is still pretty low, I mean, air is what, 78% Nitrogen, and they don't even use it as a source for Nitrogen when making fertilizer. I would think there have got to be some materials high in carbon and some chemical reaction could be employed on that material that would liberate CO2 as a byproduct.
You mentioned making avgas from coal - that's probably where the carbon came from, not air.
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on April 29, 2015, 11:16:53 AM
That seems dubious to me - they don't say where they are getting the CO2, but you're saying they extract from the air? The concentration of CO2 in air is still pretty low, I mean, air is what, 78% Nitrogen, and they don't even use it as a source for Nitrogen when making fertilizer. I would think there have got to be some materials high in carbon and some chemical reaction could be employed on that material that would liberate CO2 as a byproduct.
You mentioned making avgas from coal - that's probably where the carbon came from, not air.
For some time there have been efforts to dump CO2 from industrial processes into ground storages. There are probably a lot of sources of 'waste' CO2 that could be used. But that wouldn't be so hippy and 'environmental' if yet another green process would actually use byproducts of oil lol.
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 29, 2015, 11:22:58 AM
That seems dubious to me - they don't say where they are getting the CO2, but you're saying they extract from the air? The concentration of CO2 in air is still pretty low, I mean, air is what, 78% Nitrogen, and they don't even use it as a source for Nitrogen when making fertilizer. I would think there have got to be some materials high in carbon and some chemical reaction could be employed on that material that would liberate CO2 as a byproduct.
You mentioned making avgas from coal - that's probably where the carbon came from, not air.
In WWII they used coal. The article the OP linked to says: "Audi has been working on cleaner diesels since 2009, and the only raw materials needed for its newest synthetic are water and carbon dioxide. Its pilot plant in Dresden, operated by the German clean technology company sunfire, uses CO2 supplied by a biogas facility. Additional CO2 for e-diesel is captured from ambient air via technology from Audi’s Zurich-based partner Climeworks."
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: oboe on April 29, 2015, 12:54:33 PM
Thanks Predator for clearing that up. I don't know how I missed the link for the article!
Still seems crazy inefficient to me - CO2 is only .04% of air by volume (not that I want it any higher!).
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 29, 2015, 01:07:39 PM
I'm guessing the "green" aspect takes priority. Making "carbon neutral" diesel.
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: Dragon Tamer on April 29, 2015, 01:42:13 PM
That seems dubious to me - they don't say where they are getting the CO2, but you're saying they extract from the air? The concentration of CO2 in air is still pretty low, I mean, air is what, 78% Nitrogen, and they don't even use it as a source for Nitrogen when making fertilizer. I would think there have got to be some materials high in carbon and some chemical reaction could be employed on that material that would liberate CO2 as a byproduct.
You mentioned making avgas from coal - that's probably where the carbon came from, not air.
Have you ever heard of a gigantic chemical company called "Air Products"? All they do is freeze gasses out of the air. Molecular nitrogen is in very high supply in the chemical industry to prevent corrosion and control chemical reactions. 100% O2 is in demand for wastewater treatment plants for secondary (biological) treatment.
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: ghi on April 29, 2015, 08:28:50 PM
Anything going in this direction is a good thing hopefully it will be a great thing...
yep , and this seems to work like the CO2 /O2 natural cycle between plants and animals, but I believe the future is electric. All kind of technologies are popping on the market; Tesla is about to launch a battery for homes tomorrow, April 30th.I was listening on Bloomberg today, the utilities stocks holders are nervous; Same lithium ion technology they use in cars,
"the system is offered, currently, in 10 and 15 kwh configurations to solar customers who do not own electric vehicles or plug-in hybrids; the battery pack costs about $13,000, and Pacific Gas & Electric offers a 50% rebate for using the system (presumably because it can be used to decrease load on the grid during peak use hours); financing is set up for the customer to make an initial $1,500 payment, followed by $15 monthly payments for 10 years (at the end of which the battery is returned to SolarCity); more here; http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/apr/25/tesla-battery-home-elon-musk
This lithium ion batteris are getting better and better; i got a Samsung note 4 after 2 year on Droid Razor, cant compare the baterries; same with a Dyson dc34 cordless vacuum cleaner, love it for my truck, and .... this is the most impressive battery powered tool I purchased ,crazy powerful nut buster, more torque than 5 times larger air powered tools; :rock
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8810/17050863838_8fc99cb6eb.jpg) I can remove semi truck lugnuts with juicy 18V lithium ion powered impact wrench; :banana: :rock
Title: Re: Audi unveils a synthetic E-diesel ,made from water and CO2
Post by: icepac on April 30, 2015, 08:34:29 PM
Those "renewable resources" include a bunch of electricity.