General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Rich46yo on April 29, 2015, 10:28:20 PM
Title: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Rich46yo on April 29, 2015, 10:28:20 PM
I find myself fascinated by this matchup.
Tell me how you would fight the one in the other. :salute
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Triton28 on April 29, 2015, 10:47:15 PM
The 38 needs to either get aggressive quickly, or keep the KI at arms length until a mistake is made. Most of what the 38 does well, the KI does better. Early in the fight is the biggest danger for the KI, since the 38 gets into flaps quicker and can sometimes get an angle if the KI is too fast.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: FBKampfer on April 30, 2015, 12:03:23 AM
I think a better match is the 38 vs the 109G2.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Delirium on April 30, 2015, 06:40:35 AM
Triton nailed it.
I remember having lots of duels against Gianlupo in his Ki84 and it gave me fits!
(I wonder how Gianlupo is doing, I haven't seen him in a long while)
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Slade on April 30, 2015, 07:02:20 AM
If OldCoot is in the P-38 you are a gonner. No point. Just bail. He has gotten crazy good in that thing.
I would like to see INK vs. OldCoot. Have a film of that.
Fighting OldCoot in planes similar to the Ki-84 almost makes me want to fly the P-38 more. Also when I encounter Mossy's that out turn me in turny birds. That seems to be happening more and more.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Randy1 on April 30, 2015, 07:09:16 AM
Perfect answer Triton.
The Ki is not only a large offensive threat, it takes a lot of damage to bring it down. The only weakness I know of from using the Ki is guns. They have plenty of hit power but loose accuracy fast with distance. A skilled Ki stick probably has less of a problem than I do with long shots.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Full Metal Jug on April 30, 2015, 07:19:22 AM
They're the same canons as on the zero, roll back your canopy and throw your 20mms.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Karnak on April 30, 2015, 08:21:32 AM
They're the same canons as on the zero, roll back your canopy and throw your 20mms.
They are not the same cannons as on the A6Ms. Much higher muzzle velocity and much higher rate of fire, but lower shell weight with less explosive. I'd like to see you throw a 20mm shell at 750m/sec.
A6M5b's cannons have similar muzzle velocities, but their rate of fire is even lower than the A6M2 or A6M3's.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Slade on April 30, 2015, 09:02:50 AM
Quote
A6M5b's cannons have similar muzzle velocities, but their rate of fire is even lower than the A6M2 or A6M3's.
Sorry to ask this really dumb question. Which Zero would you say has the most lethal gun package?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Karnak on April 30, 2015, 09:16:41 AM
Sorry to ask this really dumb question. Which Zero would you say has the most lethal gun package?
Thanks,
Slade :salute
A6M5b without question. The Type 99 Model IIs it carries are the second hardest hitting 20mm cannons in the game and it replaces one of the 7.7mm machine guns with a 13.2mm machine gun.
The Type 99 Model IIs also have more ammo due to a belt feed and a much improved muzzle velocity. Their weakness is their horrible rate of fire, much lower than any other 20mm cannon, even the Hispano Mk II's. That said, it is not nearly low enough for the Type 99 Model Is on the A6M2 and A6M3 to compete. The N1K2-J carries four of the Type 99 Model IIs with a boatload of ammo, really making the gun shine.
All that said, I find the A6M3 the most fun to fly and fight in of the A6Ms.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Rich46yo on April 30, 2015, 10:46:40 PM
But the P-38 is an even larger "offensive threat" aint it?
I know enough about it to know you never want to be in front of its guns no matter how or when. Even 600 away it can be deadly.
The Ki is not only a large offensive threat, it takes a lot of damage to bring it down. The only weakness I know of from using the Ki is guns. They have plenty of hit power but loose accuracy fast with distance. A skilled Ki stick probably has less of a problem than I do with long shots.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Devil 505 on April 30, 2015, 11:04:13 PM
But the P-38 is an even larger "offensive threat" aint it?
I know enough about it to know you never want to be in front of its guns no matter how or when. Even 600 away it can be deadly.
The 38 is faster and dives better, so I suppose that gives it an offensive edge in certain situations. The 38 guns are the best in the game, IMO, so that's a bit of an offensive feather in it's cap too.
As much as I love the 38, if I were in a dogfight that I had to win, I'd rather be in the KI if everything was equal.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 01, 2015, 10:36:10 AM
The 38 is not faster below 8k, but it can hang on to its speed for longer with its 5 minute WEP. Below 8k the Frank is the better ride, and the closer to the ground the fight gets the bigger advantage to the Frank. As for turning the Frank has two thirds the turning circle of the 38 with or without flaps, so don't turn with him at all. If at all possible keep the fight above 8k and keep it fast and vertical. Use his torque against him in a rope if he lets you.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Mister Fork on May 04, 2015, 12:55:35 PM
I would strongly recommend against roping a Ki-84 as it has a lower stall speed and has much better excellent acceleration than the P-38. For example, if you both enter a climb - even with a 30-40 mph advantage, the Ki-84 will catch you as you stall out in your rope of a P-38 as the Ki has amazing energy building capabilities. Especially if he turns on WEP half-way into the climb. And if your rope doesn't work and you try to disengage, for the first 1000 or so yards before the P-38 can use its small speed advantage, it will out-accelerate your fat 38 butt and kill you before you have a chance to build speed.
IMHO - unless you can dive-bomb on an unexpecting Ki-84 pilot with 5-10k advantage and cherry pick, leave him alone. Otherwise it'll be a very short fight. And I speak on this personally for having flown the Ki-84 for years as my go-to for patrolling. Been jumped by almost everything and won most of the time...unless your Lazerr in his dang mouse-driven 38 fork-tailed devil. :D
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: JunkyII on May 04, 2015, 02:01:29 PM
KI84 should win everytime...like Triton said. 38 has to make mistake.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: ink on May 04, 2015, 02:44:40 PM
I would strongly recommend against roping a Ki-84 as it has a lower stall speed and has much better excellent acceleration than the P-38. For example, if you both enter a climb - even with a 30-40 mph advantage, the Ki-84 will catch you as you stall out in your rope of a P-38 as the Ki has amazing energy building capabilities. Especially if he turns on WEP half-way into the climb. And if your rope doesn't work and you try to disengage, for the first 1000 or so yards before the P-38 can use its small speed advantage, it will out-accelerate your fat 38 butt and kill you before you have a chance to build speed.
IMHO - unless you can dive-bomb on an unexpecting Ki-84 pilot with 5-10k advantage and cherry pick, leave him alone. Otherwise it'll be a very short fight. And I speak on this personally for having flown the Ki-84 for years as my go-to for patrolling. Been jumped by almost everything and won most of the time...unless your Lazerr in his dang mouse-driven 38 fork-tailed devil. :D
even Lazer or ACKACK or Twintail....any of the great 38 drivers...
like Junky said...even E and ALT the Ki wins every time....(well I added even E and ALT)
the only thing the 38 can really do is shoot from 1000 out and get that shot...
yes some guys really know the 38 and make for a great fight and may even win once in a while against my Ki...
but most often the 38 that tries to fight is dead in a very short time.
now if you get a guy who knows the 38 and knows E and angles..and has an ALT advantage...the 38 is more then capable of killing even a very well flown KI.
I have met some very good 38 drivers that are just awesome at making that bird dance....to me that is much more impressive to see.... than a 16 or LA or even a KI84 Dance.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: katanaso on May 04, 2015, 04:05:10 PM
Provided the fight is at a decent altitude, some tips versus a Ki84:
Be careful to avoid getting into a slower nose-down knife fight.
Use speed against it - the Ki handles worse at higher speeds, and the 38 can create reversals since it can get to flaps at 250mph.
Work at getting on top of the fight. The Ki can match the 38's climb, but force it to climb in a turn against it's torque. Regardless, be careful of the guns - they're excellent.
Force the Ki to fight in a spot where the 38 handles slightly better.
If the fight is on the deck, it's very hard. Even a relatively new player can outturn the 38 when the 38 doesn't have the vertical to use.
The biggest mistake I see people make is getting too slow, and the Ki shines as soon as the fight gets into the 150-180mph range (where you see a lot of 38s trying to fight it.)
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: ink on May 04, 2015, 04:44:43 PM
Provided the fight is at a decent altitude, some tips versus a Ki84:
Be careful to avoid getting into a slower nose-down knife fight.
Use speed against it - the Ki handles worse at higher speeds, and the 38 can create reversals since it can get to flaps at 250mph.
Work at getting on top of the fight. The Ki can match the 38's climb, but force it to climb in a turn against it's torque. Regardless, be careful of the guns - they're excellent.
Force the Ki to fight in a spot where the 38 handles slightly better.
If the fight is on the deck, it's very hard. Even a relatively new player can outturn the 38 when the 38 doesn't have the vertical to use.
The biggest mistake I see people make is getting too slow, and the Ki shines as soon as the fight gets into the 150-180mph range (where you see a lot of 38s trying to fight it.)
you have to get the KI into the speed range of 450 + before the tightening up of the controls will be an advantage to the 38...
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: katanaso on May 04, 2015, 04:53:08 PM
you have to get the KI into the speed range of 450 + before the tightening up of the controls will be an advantage to the 38...
Not that. The 38 handles like crap at those speeds too. Higher speeds, and turning near the 6g blackout, where the 38 can dump speed in a manner that the Ki cannot. It's a matter of using that tool against the planes that retain E very well.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: ink on May 04, 2015, 05:34:10 PM
Not that. The 38 handles like crap at those speeds too. Higher speeds, and turning near the 6g blackout, where the 38 can dump speed in a manner that the Ki cannot. It's a matter of using that tool against the planes that retain E very well.
its just an unfair fight for the 38...
even sticks even aspects....the 38 will lose every time.
yes she can get skinny but she is just too damn big and unresponsive (comparatively to the Ki) to really put up and fight at typical MA ALTS...
she needs some ALT/E on the KI to be really competitive against it.
Ki84 is definitely one of the best actual fighters in AH....
the one thing she does not have is running away speed.....but who needs that when I am here to fight :lol
a good KI stick will be most often be de-throttled as soon as the nose goes lo...
I always found she dumps speed and gains it back very well.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Mongoose on May 04, 2015, 08:23:06 PM
This type of mismatch was why wingman tactics were used in the first place.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Oldman731 on May 04, 2015, 09:39:42 PM
This type of mismatch was why wingman tactics were used in the first place.
Good point.
We really see it in the early war era, typically in AvA, matching F4Fs and/or P40s against Zekes. One on one, there's no contest, which forces the US player to adopt cooperative tactics, and then things change. Just like The Real Thing.
- oldman
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: bozon on May 04, 2015, 09:51:25 PM
If the KI84 is so awesome, how come they drop like flies in the MA?
Specifically agaimt the 38, it is a bad match for the 38 since it cannot exploit the glaring weaknesses of the 84 like other planes can.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: JunkyII on May 04, 2015, 10:38:42 PM
The actual go/no-go line for the KI is closer to 20k. The climb/speed performance disadvantages the KI has between 10 and 20k are inconsistent and mostly negated by WEP use... an area the KI has an advantage in.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: JunkyII on May 05, 2015, 12:27:27 PM
Secret plane available to Luft dweebs, kinda like how SAAP members get access to the P-38K.
But it displays kills as a K model, like how SAAP planes detail to the J unless otherwise specified.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: Aspen on May 07, 2015, 02:50:08 PM
10K - 12K is a little sweet spot when fighting against a KI. In a typical lower alt MA fight, I would suggest getting the KI to expect the 38 will be keeping it fast and then surprise him by dumping to flap speed and getting the nose around. If the KI isn't dead or hurt quickly, extend before the fight gets down to the KIs flap speed. This applies to many fast birds that don't turn as well but can get flaps out before the KI can.
Title: Re: KI-84 vs P-38J
Post by: mbailey on May 07, 2015, 02:53:50 PM