Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on May 06, 2015, 11:26:32 AM
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What non-perk plane has the best E retention?
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That's a rather loaded question.
I'd have to go with the Ta-152 with the P51 being the runner up.
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A-20 P38 Mossie would be my top choices
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It's a misleading question. There's short-term energy retention and long-term energy retention.
Short-term energy retention (where there is either little deceleration or when the deceleration point is primarily at the end of the engagement) is based on mass, airspeed, and aerodynamics (i.e. the more aerodynamic the plane, the less E it loses to form drag). Planes such as the Mossie, P-38, and even some bombers excel here due to their mass and general lack of torque.
Over the long term, fights are rarely flown in straight lines and typically planes will go through several phases of acceleration, deceleration, climbing, turning, and so forth. Mass becomes a negative attribute in this light and starts to work against E retention as the plane slows down. Because of this, long-term energy retention depends on wing-loading, acceleration, climb rate, and top speed - very, very different from short-term energy retention. Planes such as the Spitfires, Yaks, 109's, and other low-to-medium wing-loaded aircraft excel here.
Overall, the Spitfires (especially the 16 and the 8) have the best e-retention, followed by the Ki-84. The 109's and Yak-3 fall shortly thereafter.
Since the Ta 152 was brought up: The Ta 152 doesn't really so much have great energy retention as much as it is simply fast, builds up speed well in a dive, and handles well at low speed (which are all useful traits, but not the same as e-retention). However, you'll find that it lacks low wing loading and acceleration - the things that matter most for conserving energy. The Ta 152 fits between the two types of fighters above, leaning more towards the short-term end of the spectrum. However, put it into an extended fight with a Spitfire or Ki-84 - especially from a co-E starting point - and its flaws become apparent. This isn't always noticed, though, because a pilot experienced with the Ta 152's guns can many times end fights before they become prolonged.
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I would have put the F4U1A near the top of the list for converting E to speed and climb.
The most efficient user of accumulated E would be the 51 I would think.
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p39, p40, and i16 have the best E Rentention
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I'd give the best to the spit16 for obvious reasons.
The P38 holds and retians E amazingly well.
P51 no doubt about it
yak 3
109K
Ki84
Brewster
TA152
N1K2
A6M
These planes are capable of gaining alt, going fast, turning sharply and still being able to climb back to alt or keep their E in order to rope or to catch the roper.
I wouldn't fly all of these planes the same way, but during a fight their E retention is very noticable and it makes it extremely hard to defend against them if they start with an atl advantage. Planes that have a lot of raw power with light frames that can lift the plane higher and higher are very dangerous during fights. Planes like the P38 can emmilman very well and out rope lots of planes while also being able to extend away in some instances.
If I get in a 1V1 fight with a 109K and you are in a spit9, I could reverse E you as you cut all your speed trying to shoot me. I'll pull a smooth scissors over the top of you and smoothly end up roping the spit 9 after he lost his E advantage. The 109K had the ability to gain speed quickly which gives it the ability to pull up and over on the rope, much like a P38 would. I wouldn't easily be able to do this in a P47 or 190A8.
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These planes are capable of gaining alt, going fast, turning sharply and still being able to climb back to alt or keep their E in order to rope or to catch the roper.
DmonSlyr yes that is what I was trying to put in words that you described even more clearly. Retaining and regaining E in short. I think ideally it is best not to lose E for it to have to be re-gained! I am not that good usually yet.
Was really wondering what planes, in this context, retain E best. Both to fly them and against them.
Great posts so far on this topic. :rock
EDIT: If the P-51 is that good at retaining E I wonder why more dont engage cons at co-alt with it instead flying it from orbit, i.e. as a boom-and-zoomer?
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Well the plane is generally a BnZ plane, although it can turn quite well, most don't fly it aggressively enough. Consider how well it can dive, fly straight for a minute and then regain alt back. It can do this far better than a P47 or a F4U. Notice how a lot of fights you get into with a P51 how they make a few turns, realize they won't out turn you, and then go into a shallow dive and out run you. This is how the P51 holds and retains E very well in one example. This is why you don't see them flying on the deck a lot. It isnt great at excelling or gaining E so if you catch it slow on the deck with no E to begin with, you can typically beat it. Turning planes use E and E retainment differently in different situations or fighting syles than BnZ planes and that style of fighting, which is why they can't dive very well but are typically better fighters on the deck.
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For curious sake; I'd be interested to know where in the spectrum the G-14 (no gondies) falls among our planes.
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For curious sake; I'd be interested to know where in the spectrum the G-14 (no gondies) falls among our planes.
With the Spit8 and La5. Nearly there but just lacking.
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Well the plane is generally a BnZ plane, although it can turn quite well, most don't fly it aggressively enough. Consider how well it can dive, fly straight for a minute and then regain alt back. It can do this far better than a P47 or a F4U. Notice how a lot of fights you get into with a P51 how they make a few turns, realize they won't out turn you, and then go into a shallow dive and out run you. This is how the P51 holds and retains E very well in one example. This is why you don't see them flying on the deck a lot. It isnt great at excelling or gaining E so if you catch it slow on the deck with no E to begin with, you can typically beat it. Turning planes use E and E retainment differently in different situations or fighting syles than BnZ planes and that style of fighting, which is why they can't dive very well but are typically better fighters on the deck.
I just run em down with the K4. It's a safe bet they've gone through a fair bit of wep by the time they realize they've lost. Keep close for a minute or two and they're screwed.
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E Retention.
To begin with a plane is loosing E only if its drag is more then its thrust.
This can happen in a few different ways.
1. Flying faster then the planes max level speed.
2 Increasing drag by turning .
3 A decrease in power.
So a general question about E retention is very difficult to answer with out giving a specific case I.E. plane v plane match up, and the specific case of the match up.
A faster plane will always loose less E in level flight below it's max speed, vs a slower plane flying above it's max speed.
Heavier planes will tend to loose more when turning vs lighter planes.
So a general answer to your question is difficult.
But if you are asking in a normal B&Z roll which planes perform the best,that question can be answered along with at what altitude qualifiers.
HiTech
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E Retention.
To begin with a plane is loosing E only if its drag is more then its thrust.
This can happen in a few different ways.
1. Flying faster then the planes max level speed.
2 Increasing drag by turning .
3 A decrease in power.
So a general question about E retention is very difficult to answer with out giving a specific case I.E. plane v plane match up, and the specific case of the match up.
A faster plane will always loose less E in level flight below it's max speed, vs a slower plane flying above it's max speed.
Heavier planes will tend to loose more when turning vs lighter planes.
So a general answer to your question is difficult.
But if you are asking in a normal B&Z roll which planes perform the best,that question can be answered along with at what altitude qualifiers.
HiTech
+1 on that.
Aircraft aerodynamics are a part of e-retention - best way to measure energy retention without consideration of engine power is to take a level flying aircraft and turn off the engine and see how long it takes it to reduce airspeed by 100mph maintaining flight level. That would give you the best indication which aircraft can maintain its energy (speed) the best when engine power is taken out of the equation.