General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: earl1937 on May 09, 2015, 02:37:28 PM
Title: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: earl1937 on May 09, 2015, 02:37:28 PM
:airplane: I have heard over the years, quite a discussion as to who were the best fighter pilots to ever fly in air to air combat. A lot of good men come to mind, both American, German, English and others, but who do you think were the best and why! I think as far as fighter to fighter, in a gun battle, The German pilots were good sticks, up until most of their experienced pilots were killed for a number of reasons. The 51D didn't really come into play until late 43 or so and by then they were flying against in-experienced pilots, and with having the quantity of fighters in he air, they of course pretty well dominated the Kruats. A good case can be made for the Israel Air Force, the 67 war pretty proved that! But how would they have faired in the air over Europe during the big war? There have been many other pilots of different countries who fought in the skies, which one do you think is best and why?
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: glzsqd on May 09, 2015, 02:56:33 PM
I'd say Alexander Pokryshkin. Revolutionized Soviet fighter tactics and score nearly all his kills in obsolete aircraft.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on May 09, 2015, 02:56:48 PM
The best might not even be the ones that survived. I'm sure they were incredible sticks that never made it to fame. :old:
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Rino on May 09, 2015, 03:11:36 PM
Best...hmmm..the ones that made it home?
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 09, 2015, 03:17:43 PM
Hans-Joachim "Jochen" Marseille. The Star of Africa.
His flying skills and marksmanship was second to none. Another flying ace and later General of the German fighter force, whom himself would be in the running for "best fighter pilot ever" had this to say about Marseilles:
"Marseille was the unrivaled virtuoso among the fighter pilots of World War 2. His achievements had previously been regarded as impossible and they were never excelled by anyone after his death." - Adolf Galland
He was a killer in the air, but he also had a heart, in a letter to his mom he wrote: "Today I shot down my first opponent. It does not sit well with me. I keep thinking how the mother of this young man must feel when she gets the news of her son's death. And I am to blame for this death. I am sad, instead of being happy about the first victory."
He claimed 158 enemy aircraft destroyed in little more than two years until his death. All against the Western Allies. 17 kills in one day. Unlike most other 100+ German aces Marseilles was never shot down and remains undefeated. His death came in the form of an engine malfunction and he did not survive the bail out.
What makes a great fighter pilot is perhaps also his popularity, Marseilles was an international icon in his time, much like the Red Baron in the previous war. He was every bit the ladies man in real life that Tom Cruise tried to be on-screen.
Johannes Steinhoff, another German ace who was Marseilles' commander at one time said this about him: "Marseille was extremely handsome. He was a very gifted pilot, but he was unreliable. He had girlfriends everywhere, and they kept him so busy that he was sometimes so worn out that he had to be grounded. His sometime irresponsible way of conducting his duties was the main reason I fired him. But he had irresistible charm."
And when he died his whole fighter wing (JG27) had to be withdrawn from combat for about a month because of the impact Marseille's death had on morale.
I don't know of anyone who can top that.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: bustr on May 09, 2015, 03:26:54 PM
In a strange parallel with AH and gunnery. Many of the best German pilots spent time shooting down large numbers of obsolete Russian aircraft before being moved back to the western front. They benefitted immeasurably from honing their shooting skills almost daily while risking their lives. Which was one of the greatest hurdles for any fighter pilot who has to go guns without a lead computing aiming system or rockets smarter than a college graduate.
A second parallel to AH. No matter how fantastic your flying and shooting abilities are, too many times exposing yourself to the enemy will eventually catch up with you. Attrition was the greatest enemy of German and Japanese aces. It would have been for the RAF if the US had not entered the war.
As knights of the sky, the German and Japanese pilots were better trained for that concept. Cultural history probably had something to do with the attitude. If the outcome of the war were to have been dictated by the prowess of individual combatants in the air. This conversation would not be in English.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Muzzy on May 09, 2015, 03:37:07 PM
I don't think this is easily quantifiable as the variables are hard to pin down.
Raw kill score, like RBI's in baseball, is dependent largely on circumstance and opportunity. Western Allied pilots generally never flew in the prolonged combat conditions that existed on the Eastern Front and the rotation system in the US services ensured that the best pilots would be rotated home as instructors. Japanese pilots were generally saddled with inferior rides for the latter half of the war, German pilots flew against inexperienced Soviet pilots in crappy aircraft for the first part of the Eastern Front battles, and the Americans showed up late. Kill score alone isn't an effective measurement on who would be the best pilot.
You could add difficulty factors like types of aircraft flown or flown against, but even then I think it would be really tough to judge each pilot fairly. Reputation and accounts of fellow pilots can help, but much of that is subjective. In the end, I don't think you could make a truly convincing argument on who was the very best, although you could probably narrow it down by nationality.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Vraciu on May 09, 2015, 04:41:00 PM
Marseille Sakai Vraciu Nishizawa
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: earl1937 on May 09, 2015, 07:10:05 PM
:airplane: These were all good fighter jocks, but the German fighter pilot in N. Africa was by far the best that I can think of right now. 17 kills in one day! wow!
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 09, 2015, 08:07:21 PM
Thanks to his stardom some news footage of him in Africa survives to this day.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: eagl on May 09, 2015, 08:28:20 PM
I'm the best fighter pilot.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: KgB on May 09, 2015, 08:37:19 PM
The one who flew the crapiest tighter, scored most kills vs being shot down.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Tec on May 09, 2015, 09:10:03 PM
Swede Vejtasa, but then again he was a bomber pilot so maybe he doesn't count.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: DREDIOCK on May 09, 2015, 09:22:44 PM
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 09, 2015, 10:04:32 PM
:rofl
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: FBKampfer on May 10, 2015, 01:26:41 AM
Marseille. Undefeated, monstrously effective in the air, and having an almost mythic status in the Luftwaffe. He wasn't simply a pilot, he was a legend, killer instinct and skill personified.
A case could also be made for Nishizawa as well, for much the same reasons.
B
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Copprhed on May 10, 2015, 01:27:13 AM
Hartmann 357 kills
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Krupinski on May 10, 2015, 02:57:54 AM
I don't think anybody can say for certain, but Erich Hartmann was also undefeated in a sense. He was technically 'shot down' once and bailed out on his own accord while multiple P51s were pursuing him, rather than face a cockpit full of .50 cals. He was also a hunter... and would venture off on his own or in an extremely small group towards Russian airfields. He shot down 352 + however many unconfirmed in just over 2 years, roughly the same amount of time Marsielle saw combat. I speak from experience. After all, I trained him, and he flew as my wingman. :banana:
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 10, 2015, 03:19:53 AM
Hartmann was never shot down, but he had to ditch 14 times due to damage.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: FESS67 on May 10, 2015, 03:53:36 AM
As many have said, it is very hard to qualify the response as it was not a UFC fight - too many other factors at play, from area of operations, relative numbers in the air, aircraft type...etc etc.
For me, the one I admire the most is Marmaduke 'Pat' Pattle.
The others were amazing fighter pilots - for some reason I gravitate to this man. I cannot define it, it simply is the way I feel
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Muzzy on May 10, 2015, 04:33:41 AM
Swede Vejtasa, but then again he was a bomber pilot so maybe he doesn't count.
Is this on the basis of the three zeroes he bagged at Coral Sea while flying an SBD, or the 7 bombers he got at Guadalcanal in a Wildcat? Both were pretty impressive feats, but again, it's hard to say how he would have fared in the more intense environments the Germans and other pilots faced. Probably fairly well, but we'll never know.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Karnak on May 10, 2015, 04:35:54 AM
:airplane: These were all good fighter jocks, but the German fighter pilot in N. Africa was by far the best that I can think of right now. 17 kills in one day! wow!
The problem with that claim is that the UK didn't lose 17 planes that day...
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 10, 2015, 04:47:38 AM
Except they did. According to RAF records, they lost 13 planes shot down, and 6 crash landed. Several other aircraft had various degrees of damage, but managed to RTB safely. Marseilles may have claimed some of the planes that were damaged but made it back thinking they were more badly damaged than they were. In any case a victory for Marseilles even if not an outright "kill".
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: DREDIOCK on May 10, 2015, 09:46:27 AM
Except they did. According to RAF records, they lost 13 planes shot down, and 6 crash landed. Several other aircraft had various degrees of damage, but managed to RTB safely. Marseilles may have claimed some of the planes that were damaged but made it back thinking they were more badly damaged than they were. In any case a victory for Marseilles even if not an outright "kill".
I'd agree with this statement. If we are in a fight and you give me such damage as it forces me to abandon the fight and go land. You have effectively won the fight even if you did not outright destroy me. You have though downed me and vise verse
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: DREDIOCK on May 10, 2015, 09:52:49 AM
As many have said, it is very hard to qualify the response as it was not a UFC fight - too many other factors at play, from area of operations, relative numbers in the air, aircraft type...etc etc.
This too I would agree with. For example. By 44,45 most of the best German pilots were long gone. I would put forth the sheer number of sorties German pilots flew as a primary cause. Eventually fatigue takes its toll and luck runs out
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Guppy35 on May 10, 2015, 10:39:38 AM
:airplane: These were all good fighter jocks, but the German fighter pilot in N. Africa was by far the best that I can think of right now. 17 kills in one day! wow!
There are those who have looked at that day and not come up with those 17 claims
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Phoenix3107 on May 10, 2015, 10:43:04 AM
It's a split call for me between Clarence B. Anderson and Robin Olds.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Zimme83 on May 10, 2015, 10:45:47 AM
Marseille, Juutilainen and Wind top 3. Juutilainen and Wind with 34 and 39 kills in Brewster, neither one of them crashed or were shot down a single time. Alldough Wind landed his 109 safely after a direct hit in the seat armour by a 37mm shell from a P-39 (BUGGY!! :old:)
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Puma44 on May 10, 2015, 11:29:34 AM
Pretty sure Hartmann would ditch so much because he would take damage from debris.
Indeed... it's hard to miss at point blank. I'm pretty sure he was in a mid air collision too, and managed to make it home.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Zimme83 on May 10, 2015, 01:01:25 PM
Thats why he isnt on my list, his tactic depended too much on the lack of skill among his opponents. Marseille excelled in controlling his aircraft and used it to beat his opponents. He did also scored his kills against an equal opponent, unlike most others. RAF could match FW in both pilot and plane quality, a big different from the red army.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: glzsqd on May 10, 2015, 01:26:07 PM
mehh, Brewster pilots where shooting down Russian planes that couldn't break unless ordered to :P
I bet they even had commissar planes flying over head to dispatch any deserters!
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Zimme83 on May 10, 2015, 02:06:40 PM
mehh, Brewster pilots where shooting down Russian planes that couldn't break unless ordered to :P
I bet they even had commissar planes flying over head to dispatch any deserters!
:D that will eliminate all lw pilots, except Marseille, since they also flew against the same opponents as the Brews, except that LW had better planes...
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 02:10:36 PM
:D that will eliminate all lw pilots, except Marseille, since they also flew against the same opponents as the Brews, except that LW had better planes...
All? I didn't realize the Germans only fought on the Eastern Front. Who knew?
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Krupinski on May 10, 2015, 02:17:55 PM
Thats why he isnt on my list, his tactic depended too much on the lack of skill among his opponents. Marseille excelled in controlling his aircraft and used it to beat his opponents. He did also scored his kills against an equal opponent, unlike most others. RAF could match FW in both pilot and plane quality, a big different from the red army.
You speak almost as if you were there to witness both of their engagements yourself... Every ace was good in their own way, but unless you've witnessed them fly for yourself, it's hard to say who was better at what. Also, many of Hartmann's victories were La5's which were quite capable if flown by the right pilots.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 02:24:50 PM
There were a ton of great pilots. Godfrey and Gentile. Krupinski and Graf. Heck, even Rudel was an ace. It is an impossible task to come up with just one.
And even the greats point to others as better than themselves. Sakai pointed to Nishizawa. Vraciu pointed to O'Hare and Marion Carl. It is a fool's errand for us to pick.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Krupinski on May 10, 2015, 02:50:56 PM
Krupinski was a brave dude, from what I read about him he wasn't afraid to turn his 109, and often landed with some type of damage. He was shot down more than once, but survived the war with 197 victories. There was a time when he was forced to ditch in a mine field, without knowing of course. He got out of his plane and successfully walked across the field then was told later how close he came....
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Zimme83 on May 10, 2015, 02:52:02 PM
You speak almost as if you were there to witness both of their engagements yourself... Every ace was good in their own way, but unless you've witnessed them fly for yourself, it's hard to say who was better at what. Also, many of Hartmann's victories were La5's which were quite capable if flown by the right pilots.
Read his own words about he scored his kills. Of course Hartmann was an excellent fighter pilot. But since the tread was about answer the impossible question of who was the best i picked Marseille before Hartmann because imo its harder to pull of a front quarter shot compare to kill a a guy from 50 yards that doesnt even know he is attacked. None of us have even a slight idea of how it really was. Fact is that most top aces were just lucky, many of them were shot down but they were lucky to survive. Hartmann crashed 16 times, Marseille only one but Hartmann was the one that survive.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Krupinski on May 10, 2015, 03:08:34 PM
That's the thing, I doubt all of Hartmann's victories were point blank undetected shots. Same with Marsielle, probably not all of his victories were deflection shots, or from long range, but rather close up at 50 yards. The world may never know! :(
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Zimme83 on May 10, 2015, 03:14:28 PM
That's the thing, I doubt all of Hartmann's victories were point blank undetected shots. Same with Marsielle, probably not all of his victories were deflection shots, or from long range, but rather close up at 50 yards. The world may never know! :(
Hartmann himself stated that 80% of his victim prob never saw what shot them down. The question is only about personal opinions, the question will never get a final answer, atleast not on this board.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Krupinski on May 10, 2015, 03:23:30 PM
I don't believe there is a final answer. :aok
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: earl1937 on May 10, 2015, 03:26:46 PM
Yes, you're right but hence the quotes, those P51 pilots would probably say otherwise.
:headscratch: One of the things which stands out is on a year to year basis, 39, 40, 41, 41, 1/2 of 42, The German air Force were the masters of the skies! But when the industrial might of the U.S. begin to have a direct beariong ont he outcome of the war, its easy to see who won and why. I don't have any doubt that the American pilots were by far, the best trained during that time in history! However, again, the Israel air Force proved how well their pilots were trained during the 67 war. I think the one big advantage for any good fighter pilot is his ability to see before the attacker sees him! In almost every account of "Gabby's" kills, except in one instance, he saw the Krauts or Italian pilots before they knew he was anywhere around. I think Robert Olds proved that also. The Korean conflict was pretty much a "push", although we did manage to down more migs than they downed us. Of course if you read the North Korean version of what happened, we lost by a large number. I have talked to actual F-86 and F-84 pilots who fought those "Kooks" and all they would do is 5 or 6 would start a "merry go around" and when one of our guys when in to get a kill, he had someone on his "6". As soon as they, the Americans learned to attack on the "cardinal" points of the compass, that put a stop to that nonsense!
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: ink on May 10, 2015, 03:37:19 PM
Hartmann by far was the best at what he did..
and for the record he was never shot down...in 1307 sorties or 1303...it might be 1403 :headscratch:
he never went into his silk...14 times he was damaged to the point of having to ditch...NEVER from enemy fire.
his most proud fact was he never lost a wingman...except IIRC he lost a wingman on his very first sortie..but he wasn't in charge..
he has 352 kills not the number posted earlier....
he was the master hunter... SA unparalleled....perfect decision making (as humanly possible anyways)
in AH he would be the worst BnZ pilot ever hahaha but I never even remotely think of him like that...
of course this is MO and my memory is getting a bit old...but I know for sure (as sure as one can be without witnessing it yourself) he never got shot down...and he had massive amount of combat sorties...with 352 kills...that is insane....lotta respect for him and guys like him.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Guppy35 on May 10, 2015, 03:38:30 PM
Someone made the obvious point already. Too many extenuating circumstances to decide. Could be the best fighter pilot ever was flying an inferior plane into a mob of higher superior performance planes and didn't live to tell the tale.
When I was reading a lot on the 474th FG P-38 pilots flying ground attack with the 9th AF one name stood out with them. His name was Cpt. Earnest Nuckols. He engaged in air to air combat exactly twice. Both time he was leading 38s down low supporting ground troops. Both times they were bounced by 40+ 109s and 190s. On the first fight, August 25, 1944 the 38s were fighting from below against impossible odds. The 25th was calle Black Friday due to the losses they took that Day. Yet Nuckols survived it and claimed 3. The second fight was right at the beginning of the Bulge. Nuckols was leading 2 flights of 4 38s helping the ground troops. His flight was bombing with the second flight as cover. The 4 38s above were bounced by 40+ 109s that were joined by 20 190s. Nuckols again was forced to fight from below against overwhelming odds. He didn't hesitate but went to try and help the cover flight. He claimed a 109 and somehow got in and out of that mess alive.
Maybe he was the best ever but due to only 2 engagements in the air he didnt get the press?
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Zimme83 on May 10, 2015, 03:39:39 PM
Last years of the war the average USAAF and RAF pilot were far better than the average LW pilot. If the question was "what air force had the best pilots overall" i would say Finland. But of cource the pilot training in WW2 could not be compared to what modern day fighter pilots get. So a squad of modern rookie fighter pilots in WW2 planes would prob do better than a squad of rookies back then.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Zimme83 on May 10, 2015, 03:49:02 PM
Someone made the obvious point already. Too many extenuating circumstances to decide. Could be the best fighter pilot ever was flying an inferior plane into a mob of higher superior performance planes and didn't live to tell the tale.
When I was reading a lot on the 474th FG P-38 pilots flying ground attack with the 9th AF one name stood out with them. His name was Cpt. Earnest Nuckols. He engaged in air to air combat exactly twice. Both time he was leading 38s down low supporting ground troops. Both times they were bounced by 40+ 109s and 190s. On the first fight, August 25, 1944 the 38s were fighting from below against impossible odds. The 25th was calle Black Friday due to the losses they took that Day. Yet Nuckols survived it and claimed 3. The second fight was right at the beginning of the Bulge. Nuckols was leading 2 flights of 4 38s helping the ground troops. His flight was bombing with the second flight as cover. The 4 38s above were bounced by 40+ 109s that were joined by 20 190s. Nuckols again was forced to fight from elbow against overwhelming odds. He didn't hesitate but went to try and help the cover flight. He claimed a 109 and somehow got in and out of that mess alive.
Maybe he was the best ever but due to only 2 engagements in the air he didnt get the press?
The problem for him is that kind of encounters were no unusual for German and Finnish pilots in the east and there are quite a lot of stories of pilots being a0bounced by a superior number of enemys and still manage to get away with some kills. These two encounters doesnt make him standout against the others. Those LW pilots were most likley poorly trained rookies.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Zimme83 on May 10, 2015, 04:00:07 PM
USAAF and RAF pilots had far lower chance of becoming a top ace because they had fewer cons to kill and flew a lot less than their German opponents. However, LW at the end concisted of a small number of top aces that were still alive and a bulk of poorly trained rookies rushed into action to replace losses. (same for the Japanese). So there are probably some western pilots that could have made the list if they had fought under different circumstances, but we will never know that. USAAF and RAF could affort to give their pilots an extensive training, keep their time at the front fairly low and make the best ones instructors. Its a war winning concept but bad for making top aces.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 04:06:40 PM
Hartmann lost a wingman but the guy survived the bailout.
Sakai never lost a wingman (even on a Kamikaze mission) and was able to out duel two dozen Hellcats in a battered Zeke with only one eye..........without a single round touching his fighter.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: ink on May 10, 2015, 04:20:54 PM
Hartmann lost a wingman but the guy survived the bailout.
Sakai never lost a wingman (even on a Kamikaze mission) and was able to out duel two dozen Hellcats in a battered Zeke with only one eye..........without a single round touching his fighter.
ahhh :aok
sounds like I should read about him Sakai that is......never have :o
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 04:33:43 PM
sounds like I should read about him Sakai that is......never have :o
"Samurai!" is his autobiography. I have read it five times. It is engrossing. Well worth the time spent.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: icepac on May 10, 2015, 04:48:20 PM
Akamatsu never had a bullet land on his plane the entire war and was surely a great stick but the truth of how many he won will really never be known.
The russian Poroshkin (sp) scored many victories in truly inferior aircraft and was responsible for many tactics that allowed the russians to be competitive.
Then we have shinohara who scored 10 kills on his first ever combat sortie and scored 58 victories in 3 months.
Like Akamatsu, he had more than 6 years flying experience before his first battle.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Rich46yo on May 10, 2015, 06:11:45 PM
Sometimes it seems the great IJN and IJA pilots get to little credit cause they ended up in a war again an allied juggernaut they had no hope against once it got rolling. Most of all the IJN. But they had some great fighter pilots.
But when you are unable to rotate your best back into training schools to train up your next top guns you are doomed to fail. Most of all when your CVs end up on the bottom of the ocean and your Industry has no hope of keeping up either numerically or technologically. The Luftwaffe got caught up in this losing battle as well, if not in material terms then in human ones. But in 1939 they were the best air forces in the world.
One day I may learn enough to say who was "best". But I sure dont have an answer now.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Vraciu on May 10, 2015, 06:23:33 PM
IJN was doomed in the Solomons meat grinder. Didn't take long either, really. Like you said, no replacements.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Guppy35 on May 10, 2015, 09:03:26 PM
The problem for him is that kind of encounters were no unusual for German and Finnish pilots in the east and there are quite a lot of stories of pilots being a0bounced by a superior number of enemys and still manage to get away with some kills. These two encounters doesnt make him standout against the others. Those LW pilots were most likley poorly trained rookies.
Exactly my point. There is no way to truly know as there are too many variables involved. Short of giving everyone equal aircraft, equal sorties and seeing who is the last man standing, it's nothing but opinion.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Karnak on May 10, 2015, 11:30:16 PM
Johnnie Johnson got hit once only. A reporter asked him why Hartmann, top ace, got 352 kills while Johnson, top Allied ace in Western Europe, only got 39 and Johnson told him that that he hadn't even seen that many enemy aircraft.
This is, ultimately, an impossible question to answer and any thing said on an internet forum is just going to be personal opinions and fanboy pissing contests.
There were many who might be a contender for "the best" and picking one is a fools errand.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Muzzy on May 11, 2015, 01:24:30 AM
Someone want to lay out an objective criteria for defining the best fighter pilot? Kill score can be factored in, but it shouldn't be weighted as heavily, much like slugging percentage.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Bruv119 on May 11, 2015, 02:03:02 AM
"Samurai!" is his autobiography. I have read it five times. It is engrossing. Well worth the time spent.
for a small battered second hand book I picked up off amazon for spare change it is one of my favourite reads in my collection. Should go find it Ink I'm sure you will appreciate it.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: earl1937 on May 11, 2015, 07:59:32 AM
Someone want to lay out an objective criteria for defining the best fighter pilot? Kill score can be factored in, but it shouldn't be weighted as heavily, much like slugging percentage.
:airplane: I think, when trying to decide the "best" fighter pilot is something I have not seen anyone mention in this thread yet! Not just the air kills he had, but the effect that he had on air to air combat and his leadership skills. When you look at it from that stand point, I think you have to re-think each of the high scoring aces which had a lot of air kills. It has certainly been an interesting discussion! More people are in tune with what happened in world events than what I thought! :salute :salute :salute to all who have weight in on the discussion!!
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: ink on May 11, 2015, 11:41:05 AM
for a small battered second hand book I picked up off amazon for spare change it is one of my favourite reads in my collection. Should go find it Ink I'm sure you will appreciate it.
:aok
thanx I am gonna look for it. :cheers:
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: -ammo- on May 11, 2015, 12:01:12 PM
I submit Robert S. Johnson and a few others from the 56th. Lt Johnson arrived in the ETO in the spring of 43 and fought against a well-equipped and battle-tested Luftwaffe without any experience other than USAAC training. He scored 28 air to air kills (later downgraded to 27) before transfer back to the states. He was up against some of the best the LW had on the Channel
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Arlo on May 11, 2015, 12:08:21 PM
If it was damage he received in combat .... wouldn't that mean he was shot down?
no.... he was damaged from running into his victims carcass's.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Gman on May 11, 2015, 12:47:55 PM
Buzz Beurling is up there IMO. Maybe not the highest overall kills, but for the time he did fly and the theaters he was in, he racked up quite a score on the Allied side in short order. He was also considered one of the most aggressive and crazy fighter pilots of the war, added to having the reputation of being one of if not THE best shot in the sky on the Allies side.
He claimed a kill, and stated he fired exactly 5 20mm rounds into an Italian fighter, and the troops who found it found 5 holes in the cockpit. He also made several long range 800m deflection shots witnessed by others - he was known for his deflection shooting, as he worked on it tirelessly on the ground and in the air, and when his CO asked him to explain it and train him once, that CO the next flight after a few days instruction shot down 2 and got a damage as well, the very next flight.
27 Kills in Malta in 14 days, while sick with disease and down to 120lbs or less...He also shot down some of JG2's best 190 pilots in Europe in fights there for a total score of 32. His aggressive style got him shot down 4 times as well.
So, overall not a flashy high number, but as a ratio for "kills per time", he has to be one of the top few in the war for certain. He was a real nut too, his exploits on the ground are something hilarious to read about, but he was a dedicated student of primarily shooting accuracy, with flying ACM and tactics a close second, and studied them constantly to improve.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: ink on May 11, 2015, 01:01:05 PM
maybe not the best...but one who needs notice
Robert Lee Scott, Jr.
a "one man air force" flying by himself as cover and on ground attack missions...
a Bounty was placed on his head by the enemy :rock
22 victories.
I skinned his P40 in Honor of him.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: glzsqd on May 11, 2015, 04:28:00 PM
a "one man air force" flying by himself as cover and on ground attack missions...
a Bounty was placed on his head by the enemy :rock
22 victories.
I skinned his P40 in Honor of him.
I love that skin :D
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 11, 2015, 07:09:06 PM
Surprised that David McCampbell hasn't been mentioned. At the least, he was probably the United States best fighter pilot, the only US pilot to make "ace in a day" twice.
ack-ack
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: ink on May 12, 2015, 12:31:29 AM
Bishop Ball Georges Guynemer Rene Fonck Rickenbacker
The WW2 pilots walked on the shoulders of these giants
Korean War Aces anyone?
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: alskahawk on May 12, 2015, 10:17:50 AM
Calling out one pilot, of all who fought is difficult, if not impossible. Every combat situation is different. War is a learning curve for all the belligerents involved. In 1939 England was still using the Vic formation. Their lessons were definitely paid with blood. The US was still building and Army Air corps and their tactics were all theory until they arrived in the middle of 1942. They also paid a high price for their lessons. The Luftwaffe was a very experienced foe and had developed a lot of their tactics in the Spanish Civil War. These tactics are still used today by most air forces.
But anyway, Eric Hartmann's feat has to be near the top of the list considering he didn't even start until 1943! But you can argue that he had a target rich environment. My thought is that anyone who achieved ace status was a very competent skilled pilot. A pilot from WW1 had a whole different game to play, they were just as likely to die from an accident as from an enemy. They had to adapt their own rules of survival.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: -ammo- on May 12, 2015, 11:48:14 AM
The US was still building and Army Air corps and their tactics were all theory until they arrived in the middle of 1942.
I started to question you but realize you likely take into account the early days of the PTO (Coral Sea/Midway). USAAC fighter operations - excluding the Eagle Squadron - didn't start in the ETO or MTO until March of 1943, right?
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: morfiend on May 12, 2015, 12:12:12 PM
They only called him "Buzz" in polite company,many called him screwball and others had a name for him that would get me PNG'd!
When he was sent home to do a war bond drive he did exactly 1 meeting,then they shipped him back to England to teach pilots. His descriptions of aircombat were very graphic and the women's aux. were horrified as he spoke about shooting enemies in the head! A great pilot he may have been but taken as a whole,pretty far out there!
Picking the best fighter pilot is like picking the best fighter,too many variables and too many different styles.
:salute
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Oldman731 on May 12, 2015, 12:18:32 PM
Which USAAC unit(s) supported the invasion and from where?
33rd Fighter Group P-40s took off from carriers on November 10, 1942 and landed at Port Lyautey. Pretty famous picture showing them on carrier deck, which, of course, I can't find.
81st and 350th Fighter Groups flew P-39s in North Africa by the end of 1942. Can't quickly tell when the 38s from the 1st and 14th Fighter Groups got there, but I suspect it was well before March, 1943. Also the 31st and 52nd FGs had Spitfires.
- oldman
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Skull-1 on May 12, 2015, 02:20:26 PM
33rd Fighter Group P-40s took off from carriers on November 10, 1942 and landed at Port Lyautey. Pretty famous picture showing them on carrier deck, which, of course, I can't find.
81st and 350th Fighter Groups flew P-39s in North Africa by the end of 1942. Can't quickly tell when the 38s from the 1st and 14th Fighter Groups got there, but I suspect it was well before March, 1943. Also the 31st and 52nd FGs had Spitfires.
- oldman
On Google Search type : P-40 operation torch carrier deck
Or
P-40 carrier deck 1942
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 12, 2015, 03:32:44 PM
Bishop Ball Georges Guynemer Rene Fonck Rickenbacker
The WW2 pilots walked on the shoulders of these giants
If you're going to toss in WW1 pilots, Douglas Campbell is another one to add. He only had 5 kills before being wounded and his war ended, he had only learned to fly 6 weeks prior. According to Eddie Rickenbacker, who wrote about Douglas in his book, he claims that Douglas, wanting to get into action quickly taught himself to fly in a Nieuport and quickly racked up 5 kills before being wounded in the back by a bullet. Rickenbacker considered Douglad Campbell to be one of the finest natural pilots he ran into.
ack-ack
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: FBKampfer on May 12, 2015, 05:52:44 PM
Hartmann may have had a target rich environment, but he was also coming in at a tough time. Luftwaffe was starting to lose control in the East, heavy fighting in the West, and by 1944, Germany was starting to feel the pinch with fuel and supplies.
I've read that ready rate for their fighter forces was only around 70% due to lack of spare parts alone by July.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Widewing on May 12, 2015, 07:23:04 PM
Surprised that David McCampbell hasn't been mentioned. At the least, he was probably the United States best fighter pilot, the only US pilot to make "ace in a day" twice.
ack-ack
McCampbell shot down 9, with two probables in a single sortie... All kills confirmed as crashing by witnesses. His wingman added 6 more.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Karnak on May 12, 2015, 07:42:50 PM
McCampbell shot down 9, with two probables in a single sortie... All kills confirmed as crashing by witnesses. His wingman added 6 more.
Masterful shooting no doubt, but at the same time we have to acknowledge that the quality of one's opponents does play a significant role in these things.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: FBKampfer on May 12, 2015, 09:07:02 PM
Masterful shooting no doubt, but at the same time we have to acknowledge that the quality of one's opponents does play a significant role in these things.
An enormous role. The Axis airforces, while incapable of competing numerically, and for the Japanese, technically, may have been losing, but they weren't a beaten force until lack of training caught up with them. After it did, it wasn't so much them finally losing the fight, as much as they simply collapsed from within.
I'd say quality of one's opponents should count for a great deal.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: icepac on May 13, 2015, 11:47:06 PM
Shinohara became a double ace on his first combat mission.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Flench on May 15, 2015, 02:53:11 PM
:aok for a great thread for a change .
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Kazan_HB on May 16, 2015, 11:35:59 AM
Witold Urbanowicz, during the war none of Witold Urbanowicz's planes were hit by a single enemy bullet.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: DaveBB on May 16, 2015, 01:01:49 PM
I have an entry for Worst Fighter Pilot:
Scott O'Grady, F-16 pilot. Caused his flight lead to miss out on being an ace because he fired his missiles incompetently. Sent back the U.S. for remedial weapons training. Returned to theater and was shot down on his first mission by a SAM. O'Grady did not maneuver his jet when he was fired upon, but instead flew straight and level. At the time of impact, his flight leader was pulling 8G's.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Arlo on May 16, 2015, 03:12:13 PM
He was top ten Ace Battle of Britain. Two times shot down through one day four enemy planes (Hurricane1), join as voluntary to Flying Tigers. Shot down 11 planes, need more Arlo?
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Arlo on May 16, 2015, 05:10:04 PM
He was top ten Ace Battle of Britain. Two times shot down through one day four enemy planes (Hurricane1), join as voluntary to Flying Tigers. Shot down 11 planes, need more Arlo?
I'm sorry, Kazan. Twas a joke ('a single enemy bullet' vs 'multiple'). Please don't be offended over that. ;)
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Someguy63 on May 16, 2015, 05:18:40 PM
Scott O'Grady, F-16 pilot. Caused his flight lead to miss out on being an ace because he fired his missiles incompetently. Sent back the U.S. for remedial weapons training. Returned to theater and was shot down on his first mission by a SAM. O'Grady did not maneuver his jet when he was fired upon, but instead flew straight and level. At the time of impact, his flight leader was pulling 8G's.
How did this guy get in the Air Force?
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Kazan_HB on May 16, 2015, 05:53:10 PM
for a small battered second hand book I picked up off amazon for spare change it is one of my favourite reads in my collection. Should go find it Ink I'm sure you will appreciate it.
Yep, Samurai, by Saburo Sakai is an exellent book. :aok
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: alskahawk on May 18, 2015, 06:36:00 PM
Here is a quick bad pilot story. My helo squadron was tasked with flying a young Lt to North Island. He was met outside the terminal by an Admiral. Admiral's don't meet Lt's at the airplane very often. Apparently this young Lt was responsible for bombing some farm fields outside of 29 Palms. Not the bombing range. The town! He narrowly missed hitting a farmer driving by in a pickup truck.
His job as flight leader was to navigate his flight of A7E's and A6's to the bombing range at 29 Palms, but he was off course by ....Just a bit.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on May 18, 2015, 06:43:29 PM
That is not something somebody worthy of the name "The Best Fighter Pilot" would do.
EDIT: I'm not familiar with this story, was he damaged when the 51s were chasing him?
He claims he wasn't damaged, also he made several turns with them while firing off the last of his MG's before he bailed. if I were stuck down low with no ammo and 8 P51s chasing me... I would most certainly do the same. Nobody in a single 109 could win that fight.
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Flench on May 19, 2015, 06:54:17 AM
BigHorn , period . HHAHAHHAA . No joke I bet he been bad backthen .
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: BBP on May 19, 2015, 07:33:00 AM
Yea! I like SNOOPY! LOL
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Flench on May 19, 2015, 07:44:11 AM
He claims he wasn't damaged, also he made several turns with them while firing off the last of his MG's before he bailed. if I were stuck down low with no ammo and 8 P51s chasing me... I would most certainly do the same. Nobody in a single 109 could win that fight.
So he bombed & bailed....
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: artik on May 20, 2015, 07:50:00 AM
I don't have any doubt that the American pilots were by far, the best trained during that time in history! However, again, the Israel air Force proved how well their pilots were trained during the 67 war.
I think you should distinguish between personal record of a fighter pilot and a general ability of the air force.
You can have some amazing aces with bad overall airforce performance/training and have a great airforce without some outstanding pilots (although the further is less likely)
Finally you need to get the overall picture - the combination of training, tactics, experience, command and control and at the LAST stage the equipment.
For example Japanese navy had one of the most trained pilots, they were very good, but... they flew without radio for a long period, many of them didn't use chutes(!!!) until they were given very-very explicit order and in general had no good training program to that allowed to bring new recruits to the business. They were very stubborn despite it costs lives. So they had experienced and well trained pilots but the overall system was in pretty bad shape.
If you take as an example Claire Lee Chennault and its AVG - they had crappy planes, horrible logistics problems and overall training wasn't comparable to the of IJAF but the system of early warnings, suitable tactics, good intelligence and finally ability to outsmart the enemy did the job.
Israeli Air Force had some interesting history and damn good overall performance... otherwise probably Israel wouldn't survive and we wouldn't talk about IAF...
I think if you describe IAF, in few words you would say as realistic with a "legs on the ground" an addition of lots of Chutzpah...
It started by a WW2 veterans who searched some action after a war during 1948 (also most of them left after the end of the war)... so it had a good opening position.
It always had a good emphasis on the training and being adopted to local realities. For example if not Israeli requirements the Mirage wouldn't get its 30mm canons which was the major weapon in 1967. They related to missiles in that period as mostly useless drag on wings (and indeed the first Shafrir I missile in 1967 was a horrible missile)... The Mirage radar had many problems as well and was barely used.
In contrast to USAF/USN in that period that believed that guns aren't for use any more... Russians designed strict interceptors (and accidentally created quite a maneuverable MiG-21 [1]) Later USAF "rediscovered" energy maneuverability theory...
So finally IAF had good realistic training good overall system that allowed to bring stuff like operation Moked. Ground crew is also very well trained to allow very high sortie generation and serviceability rate... (and that I can tell from a personal experience) IAF have had too many opportunities to "learn" so it had to. The dogfight was very important part of training and IAF related always on a close combat - but it is also due to a simple fact - that there is no "much of Israel" and you have to be proficient in close areal combat.
Of course IAF tries to keep technological edge and bring some innovations others dismiss, like it was the first western air force to operate HMD and have high off-bore-sight missiles - having them in operational way-way-way before USAF even started to think about them. The ECM is considered state of the art (but nobody really knows).
And finally Chutzpah factor... for example:
- Operation Moked... otherwise Israel wouldn't exist today - Operation Entebbe - Operation Opera - otherwise the Gulf war and the middle east in general would be very different place. - Operation Wooden Leg
But some of the Chutzpah come at price during many other operations.
Finally in general I think IAF was and still one of the best if not the best air force around with nice amount of aces relatively to its size [2]
[1] When MiG-21 arrived to the Middle East it had lots of problems of engine failures - much higher than in Soviet air force. When MiG test pilots were send to Syria they discovered that they fly MiGs at much lower speeds and higher AOA and higher engine settings then they thought it was designed for (i.e. dogfighting in it hardly rather than running intercepts)... So Russians were oblivious to importance of the dog-fighting as well. [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_flying_aces
Title: Re: Best fighter Pilot
Post by: Muzzy on May 24, 2015, 03:31:22 AM
For 1967 air war, its important to remember that IAF had better planes. :salute
By no means...
MiG-21 was more than match to Mirage III. There is a tendency to underestimate MiG-21 - it was and still is a great plane - there is a reason it still operational today in many air forces.
IAF had an edge of actually testing this aircraft and they new its strong and weak points.