General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Xavier on May 11, 2015, 02:40:27 AM
Title: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Xavier on May 11, 2015, 02:40:27 AM
Since my recent comeback to the game I've been flying a bit more the 109K4, and I do enjoy it a lot. Does anyone have any tips on flying torque-zilla?
I've found compression isn't as much of an issue as I'd thought, turning off combat trim and easing on the throttle lets you recover quite nicely. I'm still getting used to the taters, deflection shooting those potatos is an art I haven't mastered yet :old:. I've heard that some people set the convergence to 150 on the MK108, is it useful? I've tried it but haven't had more success than with my standard 350 convergence (I use the same on all planes).
In contrast, the Luftwaffe used to set the convergence at 400m for both the MK108 and MG131 cowl guns.
So what's it good at? Besides going fast, of course :bolt:
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 11, 2015, 04:06:54 AM
I set convergence to 400 on all rides with nose mounted guns. It's a good average for most guns.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: glzsqd on May 11, 2015, 09:49:33 AM
K4 is fun. But i fly the g14 mainly to farm perkies :old:
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 11, 2015, 10:24:58 AM
I mostly fly the 109F because it's the best one, and a perk farmer to boot.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 11, 2015, 12:20:54 PM
Tips from someone who has flown it for 6 years, training grizz to be a monster, helped sunsfan become a monster and was the king of slow during my prime. I brag I brag, but listen up.
1. Fly it about 12 K, no point in going higher unless you are in FSO. Sometimes not even that high. You can't dive much so you have to spiral dive anyway to pounce on low con's. 12k is a good alt to keep the hi and low con's in check. The plane is one of the best defensive fighters in the game so don't worry about hi P51s or 190s diving you. You can typically avoid them and they will fly away.
2. Don't fly it like a BnZ plane and don't fly it like a turn plane. It is neither, it is a slash attack plane. Make quick pass attempts as close to your opponent as you can. You have to get in close, make a shot, and get away from the rest of the enemies.
3. Learn defensive ACM If you want to be successful in the K4. The plane lloves when the enemy overshoots and sets you up for a nice 30mm 200 yards away to the face. The whole key to the 109 is to set up attacks so that the enemy plane crosses your gunsight 100-300K away. You will have better luck making quick snap shots than you will trying to make lead shots (like how you would shoot a P51 is not the same position you'd want to be in shooting the 109k, generally)
4. Most Importantly, learn to fight with vertical ACM maneuvers like emmilmans and split S. The plane excels in the vertical loops and this is how you create angles in order to make a quick deflection shot with the 30. Also learn to keep your E so that you can rope planes (very valid tactic with the K4 since it has a poweful engine. The K4 is all about creating angles. It is not an easy as a plane some would like you to think. Also to battle the tourque when you desperately have to turn right, cut your throttle (not engine) and use lots of right rudder and aileron to turn right. When you cut throttle it cuts the torque and helps you get over to the right.
Go to the DA or TA and duel people with it. This is the best way to learn the K4 as you will get in many fights like it in the MA. You have to be very aggressive with your attacks but don't get too slow right off the bat. The style of 109s is very aggressive, much like a bullshark. Get in, make the shot, and get out without burning too much E, but you have to use slash attacks to keep the enemy on their feet.
I'll post a nice 109K sortie when I get off work that you can watch, which will identify exactly what I'm talking about here and hopefully help you have better luck with it.
There are other advanced tricks the K4 can do but just practice with that first and then we will hget to the hard stuff.
Also, I set convergence at 400. The bullet is heavy and you already have to lead far, so if you make it too short you will have to lead even further than normal. 400 shoots pretty straight and is easier to see the bullet shoot.
P.S the spiral dive and spiral climb are your best friends in the 109s. Learn how to use them effectively!
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Xavier on May 11, 2015, 01:36:47 PM
Thanks for the info, I'll put it to good use! :aok
Could you tell me about those more advanced tricks?
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 11, 2015, 03:08:17 PM
Thanks for the info, I'll put it to good use! :aok
Could you tell me about those more advanced tricks?
Performing a Barrel roll defense. ( very important move for the 109 or any defensive techniques) I'd highly recommend learning this.
The right snap roll to get the plane turned right extra quickly (may kill your E or lose a lot of E though) but this trick is very nice.
Timing is everything.
Using the canopy bars as measures of when to pull the trigger
Using the power of the engine to out rope planes who blow all their E trying to kill you during the fight. You scissor over the top, fly smoothly, and eventually they lose all their E while you gain some and then perform an emmilman over the top to get a shot. 109s are great at that.
Flying more aggressively rather than patiently while using the correct ACM in order to get the kill but not be stuck on the deck for you too get ganged after you get the kill.
The slash attack style in general is tough to learn because you have to be very cautious about your SA. Hopefully in the video I find later, it will show you a variety of these types of moves so that you can get kills effectively.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Someguy63 on May 12, 2015, 01:00:33 PM
Violator owned the summary of how to fly this thing. If you want I can post some films. I have a toejam load.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Coalcat1 on May 12, 2015, 02:56:04 PM
I'm working on editing down a vid of Anarchy and I in K4s in a 7 or 8 v 2 ( v 1 for most if it as Anarchy got ganged early on). :grin:
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Someguy63 on May 12, 2015, 04:07:57 PM
Violator rocks the g14 the best i believe, Anarchy is good also in the 109k4.
those 2 will rock anything they fly :cheers:
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: FBKampfer on May 12, 2015, 09:14:51 PM
Love it. Keep her fast and lose, be ready to change targets quickly as many will dive out on you and make pursuit imprudent.
Work the vertical as much as possible, if you get a Spit with a decent stick on your six, you're pretty screwed, so blow their wings off before that can happen.
Set the cannon for 150. Less vertical bias to deal with when shooting nose high or low (as you will do more and more often you fly the plane).
As long as you're not heavy on the trigger, those 65 rounds last longer than you would think, so don't be afraid to try for longer shots. You can't improve if you don't try.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: glzsqd on May 12, 2015, 10:55:06 PM
Love it. Keep her fast and lose, be ready to change targets quickly as many will dive out on you and make pursuit imprudent.
Work the vertical as much as possible, if you get a Spit with a decent stick on your six, you're pretty screwed, so blow their wings off before that can happen.
Set the cannon for 150. Less vertical bias to deal with when shooting nose high or low (as you will do more and more often you fly the plane).
As long as you're not heavy on the trigger, those 65 rounds last longer than you would think, so don't be afraid to try for longer shots. You can't improve if you don't try.
109 can out fight the Spit.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: The Fugitive on May 13, 2015, 09:30:05 AM
Take any 109 you want and go against Bruv. The only fights you'd win would be IF Bruv makes a mistake.
Now against the normal rabble in the MA, ya a good 109 stick would beat most spits. That is only because the majority of the players are rather poor fighter jocks, not due to the planes.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Someguy63 on May 13, 2015, 09:49:27 AM
Take any 109 you want and go against Bruv. The only fights you'd win would be IF Bruv makes a mistake.
Now against the normal rabble in the MA, ya a good 109 stick would beat most spits. That is only because the majority of the players are rather poor fighter jocks, not due to the planes.
Bruv surpasses the "decent stick" title by far.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 13, 2015, 10:06:27 AM
Who has the advantage depends on which 109 and Spit combination we're talking about.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: glzsqd on May 13, 2015, 10:15:55 AM
Take any 109 you want and go against Bruv. The only fights you'd win would be IF Bruv makes a mistake.
Bruv would open me up with nearly every plane in the lineup, getting smack around by him wouldn't prove a thing.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 13, 2015, 10:37:30 AM
Thanks for compliments fellas. The G14 is my favorite one to fly. The K4 is very fun but I use the G14 more only because of the ammo load out, plus the G14 can out turn the K4 :P
So let's get it straight. The only 109 that has a real chance at out turning or flying a good spit is the 109F, or maybe the 109E depending on the E status. All else though, the spit is just way more agile and responds much more quickly than a 109. You may have the best chance at out turning a Spit14 since that plane doesn't really fly the same as the others. The spit is much lighter, and vs a good pilot they will normally out maneuver you. The spit1, seafire, 5,8,16 will all completely domintate the 109s in a turn fight.
As fugitive said, you feel good because you can beat spits that most of the time don't know what they are capable of. Many pilots you come across in the MA don't have a lot of time flying the plane. It is easy to pick a spitfire, and a lot of times starting the fight with more E gives the good 109 sticks are strong advnatage. The key to beat spits and other planes that can turn better is to be extremely good at prediciting where you should create an angle vs the agile spit. So you should predict were they are going to fly and create an angle (from an emmillman) to get a shot. You create angles by using aileron, rudder, flap control, stall controll, and throttle control at the top of the emmillman to point the nose in the downward angle (predicting where they will fly to get a quick snap shot). If you have the E advantage this works very well. If you don't have more, it takes practice to set up this situation so that you can gain the angles to make the shot. The more times you go around the more E you lose, and vs a better turning plane, the more E you lose is deadly because they will roll inside you and you won't be able to get away or climb for another roll around. VS a spit or F4U, this is an dangerous position to be in.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: FBKampfer on May 13, 2015, 10:59:50 AM
I'd argue that the K and G-14 can handle a low E fight with the F4U's since they generally suck at building E. You don't want to get there, and you really don't want to stay there, but it's not catastrophic, unless the hog has a pretty significant E advantage.
Immelman up at around 200mph, accelerate to 200, repeat.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 13, 2015, 11:00:37 AM
Spitfires are not lighter than their contemporary 109 opponents. They're usually heavier in fact. It's more a matter of wing loading. Against the Spit8, 14 and 16 a 109K-4 can only use its speed and marginally better climb rate. The Spit14 is only marginally better at turning and doesn't have useful flaps, so the K-4 can beat it in a stall fight, but no good Spit14 driver is going to let him do that. The Spit8/16 is significantly slower, so the K-4 can easily build E in relative safety, but that is generally frowned upon in dueling circles. In the MA however co-E and co-alt the Spit8/16 would find itself on the defensive against a good K-4 driver making slashing attacks from a position of superior E. The G-14 is slightly slower than the K-4 so the advantage is more marginal. The 109G-2 and 6 are significantly underpowered compared to the Spit14 and 16 and will be at a disadvantage in every way. The G-2 might out turn the Spits using flaps, but both Spits can just climb away at will.
All earlier Spits are seriously outperformed by the 109G-14 and K-4, and matched by the 109F-4 and G-2/6.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: The Fugitive on May 13, 2015, 11:13:30 AM
Bruv would open me up with nearly every plane in the lineup, getting smack around by him wouldn't prove a thing.
It proves you can't make a sweeping statement like that because it is false. The Spit is one of the easiest planes to fight in as it is very forgiving. 109s, not so much.
I'm just trying to help keep the facts straight here.
And I'm still waiting of the films players promised. :devil
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Someguy63 on May 13, 2015, 11:16:43 AM
It proves you can't make a sweeping statement like that because it is false. The Spit is one of the easiest planes to fight in as it is very forgiving. 109s, not so much.
I'm just trying to help keep the facts straight here.
And I'm still waiting of the films players promised. :devil
I will post them today didn't know anyone was waiting. :old:
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: glzsqd on May 13, 2015, 11:21:54 AM
It proves you can't make a sweeping statement like that because it is false. The Spit is one of the easiest planes to fight in as it is very forgiving. 109s, not so much.
I'm just trying to help keep the facts straight here.
And I'm still waiting of the films players promised. :devil
Quote
The Spit8/16 are significantly slower, so the K-4 can easily build E in relative safety
Why don't you fly a spitfire against the great 109 sticks, any fight you'd win would be because of their mistake ;).
I don't mind rebuttals but telling me to "GO FIGHT BRUV!!!" is childish.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: The Fugitive on May 13, 2015, 11:30:31 AM
Why don't you fly a spitfire against the great 109 sticks, any fight you'd win would be because of their mistake ;).
I don't mind rebuttals but telling me to "GO FIGHT BRUV!!!" is childish.
Ok one last reply to you as you seem to be too butt hurt to understand.
You made a statement that was false as there are many good spit jockeys that could beat you in a 109. Your statement was based on what you believe is true due to your ego. You always win against spits when you fly a 109, so it means the 109 always win against spits.
I only pointed out that you were wrong. Just trying to keep the fact straight as in the 109 is NOT always going to beat a spit.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 13, 2015, 11:31:26 AM
DONT LISTEN TO FBKampfer
You don't know what you are talking about!!!
F4u will domintate any 109 besides maybe the 109 F in a turn fight. I mean seriously dude you cannot make training comments about planes when you have only been playing for prob less than a year.
And predator I'm sorry man but the 109g14 or K will lose in a heartbeat to a spit16 or 8. As soon as they get around on your 6 their is no extending away, the spit 8/16 will out zoom climb both of these planes all day long. You guys seriously don't fight that much in the DA to understand the significance. Just because you guys can beat newbs in the MA doesn't mean you have that much of an understanding about pushing the envelope of both planes to their max performance. And again like fugi said, the spits are much more forgiving, don't stall as hard, and are generally easier to fly in AH than 109s. The 109s are actually a pretty advanced plane to learn simply because you can't always out run from your opponent and because they cannot dive that well. This makes learning defense maneuvers a necessity and its one of the more harder concepts to learn in AH regarding timing, SA, plane performance, ACM, and aiming.
I didn't find a good Video I liked but I'll get one after work.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Someguy63 on May 13, 2015, 11:34:56 AM
Ok one last reply to you as you seem to be too butt hurt to understand.
You made a statement that was false as there are many good spit jockeys that could beat you in a 109. Your statement was based on what you believe is true due to your ego. You always win against spits when you fly a 109, so it means the 109 always win against spits.
I only pointed out that you were wrong. Just trying to keep the fact straight as in the 109 is NOT always going to beat a spit.
He did say a 109 can beat a spit. You must realize that can doesn't mean every single time no question. It only means it's possible.
Therefore both claims of his and yours have their pros and cons. Well, at least when an opposing party has something to say of course.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: glzsqd on May 13, 2015, 11:51:56 AM
Ok one last reply to you as you seem to be too butt hurt to understand.
You made a statement that was false as there are many good spit jockeys that could beat you in a 109. Your statement was based on what you believe is true due to your ego. You always win against spits when you fly a 109, so it means the 109 always win against spits.
I only pointed out that you were wrong. Just trying to keep the fact straight as in the 109 is NOT always going to beat a spit.
Butthurt? Are you 4 years old or just drunk?
All I said was "109s can out fight spits" lol. I believe that when it comes down to it, the 109 is the superior air frame in terms of fighter on fighter. It has nothing at all to do with my "ego" or because "I always win against spits" because that is false. To be quite frank, you pulled that all out of your arse.
And predator I'm sorry man but the 109g14 or K will lose in a heartbeat to a spit16 or 8. As soon as they get around on your 6 their is no extending away, the spit 8/16 will out zoom climb both of these planes all day long. You guys seriously don't fight that much in the DA to understand the significance. Just because you guys can beat newbs in the MA doesn't mean you have that much of an understanding about pushing the envelope of both planes to their max performance. And again like fugi said, the spits are much more forgiving, don't stall as hard, and are generally easier to fly in AH than 109s. The 109s are actually a pretty advanced plane to learn simply because you can't always out run from your opponent and because they cannot dive that well. This makes learning defense maneuvers a necessity and its one of the more harder concepts to learn in AH regarding timing, SA, plane performance, ACM, and aiming.
I didn't find a good Video I liked but I'll get one after work.
109s have much better stalling characteristics than the Spitfires, It's one of their chief advantages in a stall fight. Spitfires are easier to handle until they reach their stall speeds. I do agree, that the Spitfire has the advantage in a turn/angles fight, however the 109 has the advantage in the E fight.
DA fights are different from what you expect in the typical combat environment, and a combat environment allows the 109 to exercise its greatest attribute any plane can have over its opponent Speed ll co I really do love 109 vs spit debates because they are so evenly matched.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 13, 2015, 12:08:31 PM
109s have much better stalling characteristics that the Spitfires, It's one of their chief advantages in a stall fight. Spitfires are easier to handle until they reach their stall speeds.
It has a better flap structure that is for sure, but better stalling characteristics is a little overstated. The spit will easily out barrel roll the 109s, gains speed almost or just as quickly, and can hold its E very well during turns, plus reaction time and nose heaviness are much lighter on the spit which help it very much when going verticle. Gotta watch out for that upside down flat stall in the spit. The problem is that most people don't know how to use the flaps correctly on the spits. If you fight krupnski, or Joachim in a spit vs a 109, you won't beat them. Nor if ink were in a Ki84 or if I was In a F4U. The 109s simply cannot beat these planes in a rolling scissors.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: glzsqd on May 13, 2015, 12:24:43 PM
It has a better flap structure that is for sure, but better stalling characteristics is a little overstated. The spit will easily out barrel roll the 109s, gains speed almost or just as quickly, and can hold its E very well during turns, plus reaction time and nose heaviness are much lighter on the spit which help it very much when going verticle. Gotta watch out for that upside down flat stall in the spit. The problem is that most people don't know how to use the flaps correctly on the spits. If you fight krupnski, or Joachim in a spit vs a 109, you won't beat them. Nor if ink were in a Ki84 or if I was In a F4U. The 109s simply cannot beat these planes in a rolling scissors.
I believe the Spits biggest advantage over the 109 is their gunpackage, however the K4 will out run the Spit16 at nearly ever Altitude.
I like Flat scissors bettee :D
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: morfiend on May 13, 2015, 01:11:13 PM
This is not correct,the only spit that can out roll a 109,any 109 is the 16 all the rest have difficulties trying to roll at low speeds and high throttle settings.
I would add that while the spits can generally out turn a 109 there is a small speed window where the 109's can gain angles on a spit.
My favorite way to deal with a spit is to take it into a righthanded turn then start a spiral climb,if the spit still hangs in there I will start a rolling scissor to the right! Once speeds drop below 200 mph the spit wont have a chance at rolling with a 109.
YMMV!
:salute
PS: I would do the exact opposite with a spit 14.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 13, 2015, 01:25:47 PM
This is not correct,the only spit that can out roll a 109,any 109 is the 16 all the rest have difficulties trying to roll at low speeds and high throttle settings.
I would add that while the spits can generally out turn a 109 there is a small speed window where the 109's can gain angles on a spit.
My favorite way to deal with a spit is to take it into a righthanded turn then start a spiral climb,if the spit still hangs in there I will start a rolling scissor to the right! Once speeds drop below 200 mph the spit wont have a chance at rolling with a 109.
YMMV!
:salute
PS: I would do the exact opposite with a spit 14.
Well I meant more into the rolling scissors type of barrel roll.
The only 109 that would stand a chance vs the spits in a real stall fight is the 109F. Other than that, the spit really dominates all of the 109s in a sharp turning stall fight.
Unless you have a crucial E advantage from the start, I tripple dog dare y'all to try to rope a spit 16 or spit 8 with a G14, you won't out climb it. Even in a K you have to have a great speed advantage to rope the spit16 or 8. If you are in a 1V1 fight and go into the a rolling scissors you will get out scissored. If you try to rope the spit from the rolling scissors ( after a few go arounds) you will not rope it. It is like fighting the yak or P38 against a 109. The 109 barely out maneuvers both these planes even though they can gain a slight E advantage and may be able to try a rope. In any case there may be a small window speed of advantage for the 109 to get around on a spit but that takes years of experience to feel out and if you can't make the shot you are screwed. If the spit gains your 6, especially after a few rolling scissors, the 109K will not be able to get away.
I'm talking about 2 great pilots pushing the envelope for both planes to their max level.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Rich46yo on May 13, 2015, 02:31:39 PM
I Love it. The K4 is a great airplane.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: FBKampfer on May 13, 2015, 03:49:36 PM
F4u will domintate any 109 besides maybe the 109 F in a turn fight. I mean seriously dude you cannot make training comments about planes when you have only been playing for prob less than a year.
I never said turn with him. There's a difference between being slow, and trying to out turn someone.
It's not like if you drop below 170 you automatically explode because the F4U is just that much better. If you think like that, then I'm sorry, but as good as you are, you're also an idiot.
Its preferable to be fast and high, but that also applies to every other opponent in the game, not just the F4U.
And the reality is that at some point, you're going to bump into a hog when you're low E. You seem to paint it as unwinnable, and I would argue otherwise.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 13, 2015, 04:56:10 PM
I never said turn with him. There's a difference between being slow, and trying to out turn someone.
It's not like if you drop below 170 you automatically explode because the F4U is just that much better. If you think like that, then I'm sorry, but as good as you are, you're also an idiot.
Its preferable to be fast and high, but that also applies to every other opponent in the game, not just the F4U.
And the reality is that at some point, you're going to bump into a hog when you're low E. You seem to paint it as unwinnable, and I would argue otherwise.
First of all, I wasn't referring to you with that statement. I was stating that FBkampfer doesn't have enough experience to judge which planes can do what yet. No offense.
Secondly, you are miss understanding my point. Sure it comes to down to how the pilot controls the aircraft. But on equal pilots the F4U is way more versatile than the the 109s in almost all aspects of fighting. The only thing the the K4 is better at is excelling and climbing. If the K4 doesn't start with an E advantage it will lose the fight if you attempt to stall fight after a few go arounds. The slower you get the worse off you are against a F4U in a turn fight. The only thing a K4 can do is extend away from the F4U and attempt to gain more E in order to attempt a spiral climb rope, which takes a lot of experience and understanding to perform. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to fight the F4U as it is a good challenge, just the odds of you winning vs a good F4U pilot are very slim in this situation.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: morfiend on May 13, 2015, 05:00:49 PM
Demon,
Look at roll rates of the spits vs the 109's and other than the 16 none compare!
As for the rest of your post,I never said anything about roping a plane,you did but I didnt,I merely stated how I would deal with a spit when in any 109.
I think the spits are easier to fly than a 109,have better views and dont suffer from a stiff elevator at high speeds but the 109 have their own advantages,looking mean is just 1 of those! :evil:
:salute
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: bustr on May 13, 2015, 05:08:50 PM
And you make sure your spit driver doesn't know when to stop turning to the right and reset the fight.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 13, 2015, 05:43:35 PM
And predator I'm sorry man but the 109g14 or K will lose in a heartbeat to a spit16 or 8. As soon as they get around on your 6...
You keep discussing as if it would become a turn fight. It wouldn't. Co-E, co-alt the Spit would not get an opportunity to get on the 109's six. The only shots a properly flown 109K will give is the occasional HO opportunity, and if the Spit driver is very good and sets it up, and survives the 109's attack, he might get a parting shot as the 109 flies by.
Even a well flown G-6 can give a Spit8/16 a good run for its money in a knife fight.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: ink on May 13, 2015, 06:11:25 PM
due to the nature of dogfighting...which IMO
requires a mental process to excel at...in other words the "tool" being used is only so good for success.
there are some natural abilities that play into it...but without knowledge of E and ACM itself your success will be very limited.
once a certain skill level is reached the tool/plane is not longer of great importance....
you take a fighting "vet" in a crappy plane he will kill the totally new guy in a spit16 even at a disadvantage every time.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 13, 2015, 07:14:33 PM
No 109 driver worthy of the title will turn fight a Spit, let alone a Corsair. 109's dominate the vertical E fight.
You keep discussing as if it would become a turn fight. It wouldn't. Co-E, co-alt the Spit would not get an opportunity to get on the 109's six. The only shots a properly flown 109K will give is the occasional HO opportunity, and if the Spit driver is very good and sets it up, and survives the 109's attack, he might get a parting shot as the 109 flies by.
Even a well flown G-6 can give a Spit8/16 a good run for its money in a knife fight.
You know I had a perfect 109K sortie I was trying the upload to films and screenshots but it is too big for the server. Dangit. Wish I knew how to post to YouTube.
I disagree a lot with what you are saying. You act like the 109 should always have the E advantage and always have the upper hand. The 109K has a great vertical when it has the advantage and against other planes on equal terms, true. This is not always the case though. The vertical is very different when you don't first start off with the upper hand. Any spit besides the 14 could turn inside on the 109 on a the merge and if the 109 doesn't keep the E or equals the merge, it will lose on the merge generally every time especially vs a spit16, the spit 8 and 9 also react much more quickly than the 109k. The spit16 even has a better vertical. Yes the 109s will give spits a very hard time, but equal pilots who can fly both planes to top tier the spit will always gain the angle and have a easier time doing it. It takes a lot more skill from a 109 pilot to beat a spit than vice versa. The 109 in the defensive vertical is only good if you can make the shot on a overshoot, this is a very advanced maneuver taken from the barrel roll defense. If you are fighting vs an opponent who is great at BnZ you will lose. It only excels in the vert if you can reverse E the opponent and attempt a rope which again is a very advanced move, and very difficult to perform on a spit no other. Fighting in the defense is where the K4 is great at, but vs a good opponent in a better turning plane who starts the engagement at a higher alt will always beat a 109 given equal pilots.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: FBKampfer on May 13, 2015, 07:45:53 PM
First of all, I wasn't referring to you with that statement. I was stating that FBkampfer doesn't have enough experience to judge which planes can do what yet. No offense.
Secondly, you are miss understanding my point. Sure it comes to down to how the pilot controls the aircraft. But on equal pilots the F4U is way more versatile than the the 109s in almost all aspects of fighting. The only thing the the K4 is better at is excelling and climbing. If the K4 doesn't start with an E advantage it will lose the fight if you attempt to stall fight after a few go arounds. The slower you get the worse off you are against a F4U in a turn fight. The only thing a K4 can do is extend away from the F4U and attempt to gain more E in order to attempt a spiral climb rope, which takes a lot of experience and understanding to perform. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to fight the F4U as it is a good challenge, just the odds of you winning vs a good F4U pilot are very slim in this situation.
I'm not that new, about 5 years total.
Second, as I said, it's obviously preferable to have the advantage. This is always true.
But you won't always have it, and it pays to know how to fight from an equal start, or even a disadvantage. The F4U has trouble with nose-high work when slow, so you've got to take the fight into the vertical, as I said. Chaining immelmans together works as a good interim if you can't pull off the spiral climb. It keeps the F4U working against gravity, and let's you keep out of his guns for the most part.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: bustr on May 13, 2015, 08:24:53 PM
That spit8 pilot was afraid to give up his E on the deck to take advantage of the 109 hanging there and bet the farm on his ability to shoot then get away. He looked to have reached a competent MA fighting skill level with the spit8 which tends to be reactionary to the con, then quickly bailing to reset or run away. The spit8's speed and E retention is it's worst enemy in slow 1v1. That is the hard lesson that spit8 pilots have to accept. It's not so bad in a 9 or 16.
So he was not getting to flaps speed very often to change the nature of his fight. He was probably on Mil and popping in and out of WEP much of the fight trying to change from flying like a spit, to suddenly trying to fly like a 109, then bailing to a reset. In a spit8 you cannot suddenly slow down to take a vertical shot at a 109, who has been flying near flaps speed to float vertical teasing you with the illusion of an easy shot.
You can fly with less throttle and stay closer, even dragging a lot of opposite rudder to help stay slow. The spit8 driver flew like he had lost a lot to 109's and knew what was coming next but, not quite there with the experience to counter it. And was allowing his fear of loosing one more time to a 109 dictate staying too fast trying to get around the circle and win with the spit's turn rate. The constant resetting after each failed rear pass while the 109 hung above him. And the obvious blowing out in front trying to scissors. He should have brought a 9 then. The spit8 can be unforgiving at slow speed in turns and trying to go vertical at slow speeds. Often making players opt for the more forgiving 16.
Also that spit8 driver was a horrible deflection shooter.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 13, 2015, 08:47:50 PM
Second, as I said, it's obviously preferable to have the advantage. This is always true.
But you won't always have it, and it pays to know how to fight from an equal start, or even a disadvantage. The F4U has trouble with nose-high work when slow, so you've got to take the fight into the vertical, as I said. Chaining immelmans together works as a good interim if you can't pull off the spiral climb. It keeps the F4U working against gravity, and let's you keep out of his guns for the most part.
Okay well never seen you before this year unless you changed your name.
If low n slow, this is the worst position for a F4U to be in. The 109 will eat it up all day long with the ropes and Emillmans, like you said. The exact same thing would happen if the 109 was low n slow, although I think the 109 is better at fighting against BnZers when on the deck. The F4U will out manauver any 109 easily given equal speed and alt. It wouldn't even be a close fight. If the F4U has equal or more speed than the 109, the 109 is dead meat. The flaps are dangerous, and just because the 109 can hang for 1 second longer, doesn't make the plane capable of being a better turner or positon fighter. It all comes down to situations, positions, and timing, but in certain terms it comes down to what the plane is actually capable of as well.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: MK-84 on May 13, 2015, 11:43:43 PM
I use 450/500 on the 262, 450 for all other 30mm planes.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: bustr on May 14, 2015, 02:30:35 AM
The few times I fly the K4 every year, I fly it up some con's kester at high speed. Pull the trigger, and put lots of air between me and anything else. Repeat it two more times and land. Convergence doesn't matter when you can smell what the other guy had for lunch. Now if you want four or more kills, you have to bother with learning ACM and how to aim in it. By the time you get three, the bad guys have decided to eliminate you for your success thinking you are a muppet.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 14, 2015, 07:02:46 AM
I disagree a lot with what you are saying. You act like the 109 should always have the E advantage and always have the upper hand. The 109K has a great vertical when it has the advantage and against other planes on equal terms, true. This is not always the case though.
There is an essential truth that you seem to be unaware of: Speed dictates the engagement. This is the problem for all agile, but slow fighters like the Hurricane and Zero. Tokyo Rose would call the Allied pilots cowards and dare them to stay and fight because the British and Americans would use their superior speed to avoid fighting unless they had the advantage. The result was that when the Japanese bounced the Allies, the Allied fighters would just walk away from the fight. When the Japanese were caught at a disadvantage they had no choice but to accept combat.
Whenever I'm flying the K4 and happen upon a lone Spit that has alt on me I simply keep my distance, equalize E, build some E over him, before engaging him. And he has no option but to fight me from a disadvantage. Given the excellent flying characteristics of the spit it is always dangerous to fight one. One mistake and you could be dead. However, if you fly right the 109 can always just walk away, never giving the Spit a chance to get on your six at anything less than 800 yards.
Also it is fun to pawn Spits, though this is obviously a matter of vastly different levels of pilot skill. K4 vs 8 spit8's :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecNF1K7c8pk
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 14, 2015, 07:47:20 AM
You know I had a perfect 109K sortie I was trying the upload to films and screenshots but it is too big for the server. Dangit. Wish I knew how to post to YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlxqk0iHp5w
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 14, 2015, 08:49:18 AM
I'll try to get my vid posted today, it was a really cool sortie.
There is an essential truth that you seem to be unaware of: Speed dictates the engagement. This is the problem for all agile, but slow fighters like the Hurricane and Zero. Tokyo Rose would call the Allied pilots cowards and dare them to stay and fight because the British and Americans would use their superior speed to avoid fighting unless they had the advantage. The result was that when the Japanese bounced the Allies, the Allied fighters would just walk away from the fight. When the Japanese were caught at a disadvantage they had no choice but to accept combat.
Whenever I'm flying the K4 and happen upon a lone Spit that has alt on me I simply keep my distance, equalize E, build some E over him, before engaging him. And he has no option but to fight me from a disadvantage. Given the excellent flying characteristics of the spit it is always dangerous to fight one. One mistake and you could be dead. However, if you fly right the 109 can always just walk away, never giving the Spit a chance to get on your six at anything less than 800 yards.
I'll try to get my vid posted today, it was a really cool sortie, I'll show it all from the cockpit.
That Video is pretty cool there.
Yeah I agree with you there. This is one of the reasons why I like AH so much. The planes actually perform close to real expectations. Many of the Jap planes in the game cannot dive well or hold speed very well and they will get out ran every time. I use to try to fight a6ms in my 109s instead of running, but that is one plane, along with the ki43, that I just dont even try to fight anymore unless I have E advantage. I always say the fastest planes in AH have the biggest advantage in the MA simply because they can extend away from the fight once they realize they cannot roll inside you. I proved that flying the tempest in tour 181, Jan 2015. The plane can get away from almost any danger and can easily roam around the map without too much catching it (this is to say if you keep it fast and don't try to get slow with the enemy).
It is funny because it sounds like I am bashing the 109's. It is the plane I fly the most in AH, mainly because it can still put up a great fight but it still gives me challenge. I love fighting in the defensive and have practiced this art very well. I even got the most kills in the 109g14 in tour 182, Feb 2015. I have a lot of experience fighting planes and good pilots in the 109s. One of my best fights was vs KillnU in his 109k vs my 109g14. It was then I realized that the G14 has just a slight turning advantage against the 109k4. The spit is just much more versatile in terms of reaction times and pulling up the nose on a rolling scissors. I agree with bustr that that spit8 missed a lot of shots and wasn't pushing the plane as hard as he could have. I didn't particularly see many angles the spit was trying to pull, although Dolby still flew that very well, and you can see how much it takes him to work flaps and throttle for a position. The problems with the 109s are that they do not perform well at high speeds. This causes 109 pilots to get low n slow from trying to engage cons below them and chopping throttle to make a shot, it really puts people in a bad position when they cannot aim the plane correctly. They can't just BnZ because the plane can only go like 450 before you have to slow down to maneuver, this makes it easy to pick from higher cons. It is easy to stay fast in a 190D because you can dive down to 530 and still make a shot, then zoom away. In a 109 you cannot do that as easily because you have to manage speed, and it causes a lot of pilots to lose their E in low alts which makes it easy to pick and gang. In planes like the 109g2, staying fast is very difficult, especially when cons are coming in higher than you. The 109 has a lot of great attributes but it is still limited to an extent, the 109K is really the only 109 that may have a chance at extending away from most unbalanced fights. Many of the times in my g14 planes out run me. The g14 is a lot of fun to fly because aiming is much easier, it still keeps moderate performing speed in the MA, and can give a lot of pilots a hard time in any plane they are in.
The vert is very important in a lot of fights but lets consider this (you can disagree but I've fought this a LOT) the F4U out maneuvers the Ki84. The ki84 is better in the vert for sure, but the F4U has better flaps, can work the fight, can turn sharper, and is better in a slow stall fight. The F4U is brutal in a 1v1 fight, probably one of the best in the game. No one thinks so because it is poor on the deck, has poor excel, and takes patients to learn, and is also hard to stay fast in. It is not a beginner plane, but the dynamics of the plane make it more suitable for turning and setting up positions far better than most planes, and this is why the spit out maneuvers the 109 in most circumstances given equal E, it is so versatile.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 14, 2015, 09:19:10 AM
I agree that the F4U is a very good knife fighter, but with the exception of the monster -4, the Corsairs have that one glaring flaw: Acceleration/climb rate (same thing really). A Corsair with E to spare is a very dangerous foe, so the first thing that needs to be done is bleed him of E. When he's out of E he's done for and can easily be spiral climbed above and dominated by most 109s (perhaps even the Emil). Because of his poor acceleration he can't use his superior speed against early 109s because they will catch him before he gets up to speed. Of course the MA is not a dueling arena and the F4U is very effective in the multi-plane engagement when it has other E monsters in support.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: The Fugitive on May 16, 2015, 01:27:35 PM
Violator sent me the film and I up-loaded it to MediaFire. I've watched it a few times now and like his plane control at slow speeds as well as his aim. I hope he gives us a bit of a "play by play" about a couple of the fights to see how the maneuvers fit with his thoughts on the engagement.
Violator sent me the film and I up-loaded it to MediaFire. I've watched it a few times now and like his plane control at slow speeds as well as his aim. I hope he gives us a bit of a "play by play" about a couple of the fights to see how the maneuvers fit with his thoughts on the engagement.
All I said was "109s can out fight spits" lol. I believe that when it comes down to it, the 109 is the superior air frame in terms of fighter on fighter. It has nothing at all to do with my "ego" or because "I always win against spits" because that is false. To be quite frank, you pulled that all out of your arse.
Fixed.
According to these comparisons http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php Matching spitfires VS 109s, Like the spit8 vs the 109g2, the spit16 vs a g14 and a spit14 vs a k4 all are extremely close in performance. Close enough that it would really be hard to determine which could outfight the other. The only big enough differences to matter I noticed is that the spitfire will outturn a 109, and has better lethality. Additionally that comparison page doesn't show that spitfires have massively better handling in a dive. Roll rate also isnt shown but I'm pretty sure the advantage goes to the spit throughout most if not all speeds. So unless have a stupid match like a spit5 vs a 109k4, the performance is very close with the advantage going to a spitfire. This all assumes some bizarre scenario for a 1v1 where the energy states are equal and so are the pilots. This never happens
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 18, 2015, 03:09:17 AM
You got the match-ups wrong. The Spit8 and 16 are contemporaries to the G6/G14. The G2 is contemporary to the early Spit9. The Spitfire does not have useful flaps and very few Spit pilots use them. In AH all 109's will out turn a Spit16 by using flaps in the one circle fight. Even the K4. They also roll marginally better than all the Spits save the 16. In addition the 109's are always faster than their contemporary Spits, with the notable exception of the G6 which is slower than the Spit 16 and only match the Spit8 down low.
If the Spit uses flaps in desperation they add so much drag that the Spit can then be out circle-climbed fairly easy by a contemporary 109.
That said, the Spit is a very dangerous opponent to any 109. The Spit is easier to fly for noobs, but the margins are in favor of a well flown 109.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 18, 2015, 07:35:07 AM
You got the match-ups wrong. The Spit8 and 16 are contemporaries to the G6/G14. The G2 is contemporary to the early Spit9. The Spitfire does not have useful flaps and very few Spit pilots use them. In AH all 109's will out turn a Spit16 by using flaps in the one circle fight. Even the K4. They also roll marginally better than all the Spits save the 16. In addition the 109's are always faster than their contemporary Spits, with the notable exception of the G6 which is slower than the Spit 16 and only match the Spit8 down low.
If the Spit uses flaps in desperation they add so much drag that the Spit can then be out circle-climbed fairly easy by a contemporary 109.
That said, the Spit is a very dangerous opponent to any 109. The Spit is easier to fly for noobs, but the margins are in favor of a well flown 109.
Absolutely wrong man!!!!
The 109k4 will not out turn any spit besides the spit14 (maybe). There is no way in hell a 109k could outurn a spit16-9-8-V-seafire. The flaps on the 109s are great. As you can see how much I used flaps during my sortie, I use them for lift and also make it easier to roll over without going forward too much. During my sortie here, you can see that A. my 109k4 was not going to be able to out maneuver the spit 9 after we merged and B. I would not have been able to attempt a rope in this situation. I had to push the nose down and attempt another over shoot technique (during that speed part that Morfiend mentioned where the 109 may have a small speed window for blackout) very advanced move and I timed the roll over well. The 109K, G14, 6, 2 cannot out turn the spit, even with full flaps down.
The spit should be getting their flaps out to slow down well enough to get inside the rolling scissors. The 109s do not beat the margins on the spit in close quarter flying. The spits simply dominate the K4s and G14s. The spit16 is a beast. There is no way a well flown 109 would beat a well known spit16. The G2 and G6 cannot out turn a spit9 or 8. The F model is the only 109 that can win against a spit fire. It still will not out turn a spit 5. I don't know where you get your engagements from, how many times you been in the DA or TA dueling and practicing planes. But you are way off on your vision that you can simply just rope a spit with a 109 in any circumstance or that if the flaps come down in a spit it is a desperate attempt. That is just wrong.
When was the last time you flew both these planes?
I know you think the 109s are all mighty and can perform the best out of any plane (if flown correctly) but that is wrong, especially against spits.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 18, 2015, 07:42:47 AM
Since my recent comeback to the game I've been flying a bit more the 109K4, and I do enjoy it a lot. Does anyone have any tips on flying torque-zilla?
I've found compression isn't as much of an issue as I'd thought, turning off combat trim and easing on the throttle lets you recover quite nicely. I'm still getting used to the taters, deflection shooting those potatos is an art I haven't mastered yet :old:. I've heard that some people set the convergence to 150 on the MK108, is it useful? I've tried it but haven't had more success than with my standard 350 convergence (I use the same on all planes).
In contrast, the Luftwaffe used to set the convergence at 400m for both the MK108 and MG131 cowl guns.
Good fighting training in the K4 there. I wouldn't have thought to use the flaps as much as he did - will have to try it next time out.
Thank you for posting this Fugitive.
I will explain in full detail when I get home from work some of the maneuvers I used, Why and How I used them, and also why I used the flaps so much. I cannot upload the film, watch it, and explain it at work.
Even though I missed a lot of shots... they were close. See how I set up shots by predicting where my enemies are going to fly.
Notice the defensive maneuvers I use on the spit and yak. I created a quick speed window to get the planes to black out while they are trying to chase me. When I get in the right position, I roll over the top get some flaps out, and try to roll around on their 6. The yak got picked right when I had em where I wanted him the second time. The key in defensive maneuvers is timing, and getting the enemy to black out and slow down as they are trying to make the shot. If they lose sight of you as you are rolling over you have the advantage now. Id recommend you watch this and gather how I use flap control, SA, throttle management, and ACM to dodge bullets and go from the defense to the offense.
Hope this helps, and again Ill explain a lot more of the video play by play on my personal computer later today.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 18, 2015, 09:32:35 AM
The 109k4 will not out turn any spit besides the spit14 (maybe). There is no way in hell a 109k could outurn a spit16-9-8-V-seafire.
Calm down now... :) A 109K-4 using flaps will out turn a Spit8/9/16 without flaps. And most Spit drivers don't use flaps. That's what I said. Both Mosq's turn list and GonZo's confirm this if you don't take my word for it. The Spit14 is completely outclassed.
Calm down now... :) A 109K-4 using flaps will out turn a Spit8/9/16 without flaps. And most Spit drivers don't use flaps. That's what I said. Both Mosq's turn list and GonZo's confirm this if you don't take my word for it. The Spit14 is completely outclassed.
The chart shows that the spit16 has a better turn radius with and without flaps vs the 109 with and without flaps.. So VS a spitfire who can fly correctly it will lose. I know the 109s have a lot of fighting potential, but they are outmatched vs a spit in a turn fight. They metrics there prove that. If you are fighting against a weak pilot on the spit16 who cannot use flaps, then you aren't fighting someone who knows the spit16 well enough to give you an accurate fight. If you are fighting against a spit16 who knows how to fly the plane properly, the 109k4 and G14 have absolutely no chance at winning a close quarter fight. I'd love to go to the DA or TA to prove my point. The spitfires are easier to fly and have a lighter nose to pull up after a rolling scissors, which is very important during a rolling scissors. The 109 has a lot of characteristics that allow it to be a great fighter in the MA, however it doesn't have the reaction time or the easy control feeling like the spits do. In the DA the fight would be over soo quickly in a 8-16 and if you get slow it wont beat a 9 or seafire. In the MA, if you don't have the E advantage you can do what I did in the video and attempt an overshoot, but other than that running away is difficult because they both gain speed quickly in a dive. You really should fly both the planes tonight in the MA and see for yourself how much easier it is to control the spitfire and turn inside planes while keeping E.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: bustr on May 18, 2015, 11:00:25 AM
Flying a spit against a muppet in a K4, you learned to use zoom to look for the state of the flaps. And it was a give away that was coming when they raised the nose.
Knowing sooner than later the flaps were out is the key to begin beating their K4. Still, unlike the K4, which has notches of air brakes(flaps), the spit has one chance at getting the flaps down and setting up that shot. Then it's a reset and you have to go through it again. The K4's great advantage in this game is it's WEP with it's flaps out and it's WEP with it's flaps in. Even if Hitech modeled as perked the spit14 on 150 octane, that would only mean it was faster Mil\WEP and climbing Mil and WEP. But not better with those flaps at slow speeds.
Then all 109's have that flaps out slow down and fad away ability to force everyone else not in a A6m to blow by. And since most players can't shoot, 109s rule.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 18, 2015, 11:06:07 AM
I've been flying mostly 109's (F being my favorite) and 110's since 2004, but currently I'm not playing AH (for the last year or so). I'm eagerly awaiting the new graphics update to give AH another go. In the 109F I regularly took on F4F's and FM2's and won knife fights. The Friedrich is truly a UFO.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 18, 2015, 11:49:49 AM
No wait, it was 2002... Jeez, time flies... I'm old. :old:
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 18, 2015, 12:31:32 PM
Found this old vid I made back almost a decade ago showcasing the 109F. I'm sorry to say I couldn't shoot worth a damn back then... Still cant. :cheers:
https://vimeo.com/128158680
The jerkiness is just the old film viewer being a bit dodgy.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 18, 2015, 02:39:25 PM
The 109f is a great plane and very fun to fly, however if you are in the late war MA, you better learn some defense ACM because 90% of the time you will be fighting against planes that are higher and/or faster than you.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 18, 2015, 03:23:42 PM
I don't know if the MA has changed a lot this past year, but it wasn't much of a problem before. You'd normally find me at 23-25k at 385 mph cruising around looking for prey. In a very shallow dive it would easily do 450+ mph for intercepts. With a little throttle management you can get an hour or more endurance out of the 109F with no droptank (clean is faster) just cruising around covering a lot of ground. It's a very nice little plane.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: ink on May 18, 2015, 03:32:53 PM
I don't know if the MA has changed a lot this past year, but it wasn't much of a problem before. You'd normally find me at 23-25k at 385 mph cruising around looking for prey. In a very shallow dive it would easily do 450+ mph for intercepts. With a little throttle management you can get an hour or more endurance out of the 109F with no droptank (clean is faster) just cruising around covering a lot of ground. It's a very nice little plane.
:O
I come in at 15 and people call me an ALT monkey :rofl :rofl
I cant see how you would ever get many fights up there...I bet 90% of the MA is fighting under 10K and have been for as long as I have been here.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 18, 2015, 03:51:26 PM
A bird of prey looks down at its intended victim, not up. I'm an altmonkey and proud of it! :P
Anyways, 23k is the 109F's sweet spot for cruising speed and range. And in a 109 it's just a 5 minute climb.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: ink on May 18, 2015, 03:56:33 PM
A bird of prey looks down at its intended victim, not up. I'm an altmonkey and proud of it! :P
Anyways, 23k is the 109F's sweet spot for cruising speed and range. And in a 109 it's just a 5 minute climb.
:rofl
a true fighter can fight from a disadvantage...and will even give ya his hi 6 to fill you full of confidence...before he sends ya to the tower :cheers:
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 18, 2015, 04:06:41 PM
:D Sure, but only an idiot would do so on purpose! Would it surprise you that I mostly flew for the Rooks? :P
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 18, 2015, 04:30:12 PM
Its one thing to begin the fight that high and dive on lower players. It is another thing to quickly get the kill and regain back to hat alt without getting jumped by the faster P51D and 190Ds that are trying to pick you after you dive. Even when the plane dives, a lot of the MA rides will still catch the 109f. You can't really BnZ in a 109F bexuase it isnt fast enough. This plus the fact that it has terrible guns (makes you take a lot longer to get the kill) leaves you a lot lower than before and slower than before. So if any plane ends up higher than you, you will get jumped. That is why I said you better know some good defense maneuvers because most of the time you will be flying defensively in the 109F even though you started out with high alt. It is mostly the motion of the furball that takes the fights lower and lower, and if you are bad at aiming you run a huge risk of getting ganged in slow planes in the MA.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 18, 2015, 04:46:30 PM
Sure, that's where SA comes in handy. To successfully survive in a multi-con environment you need to know where everyone is, where they're going, and their relative E-states. It was much easier back in the day when we had accurate range icons. Knew a few guys who quit over that game change.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: ISux on May 19, 2015, 09:54:20 AM
Its one thing to begin the fight that high and dive on lower players. It is another thing to quickly get the kill and regain back to hat alt without getting jumped by the faster P51D and 190Ds that are trying to pick you after you dive. Even when the plane dives, a lot of the MA rides will still catch the 109f. You can't really BnZ in a 109F bexuase it isnt fast enough. This plus the fact that it has terrible guns (makes you take a lot longer to get the kill) leaves you a lot lower than before and slower than before. So if any plane ends up higher than you, you will get jumped. That is why I said you better know some good defense maneuvers because most of the time you will be flying defensively in the 109F even though you started out with high alt. It is mostly the motion of the furball that takes the fights lower and lower, and if you are bad at aiming you run a huge risk of getting ganged in slow planes in the MA.20
my typical play style, i fly the 190D a lot and sometimes the k4. typically with the d9 I take full fuel and a drop every sortie. I like to set myself to climb in a direction that will take me just out of the sector i'm going to. Then ill go afk and smoke a cigarette. when i come back I'm usually between 15 and 22k. if i think the fight is low ill drop to about 15k and pick up speed before i enter the fight. if i think there might be bombers around i'll head for the fight at 20k or so. I like to kill bombers so its nice to get to a fight at a good alt.
usually ill drop into the fight and slash attack until i get lower e. typically if i'm below 5k and slower than 400 it's time to extend and climb a bit. i've been pretty successful in the Dora not so much in the k4 :D
i really like the 190, because the cannons are great, lots of ammo and it takes just a few hits to get a kill. plus with the dora i can usually escape a bad situation, and it has enough fuel that i can leave climb and come back a couple of times.
I''ve just found that i can't get kills as easily in the planes with 6 .50 cals.
not really talking about the k4 that much i cant hit anything except bombers consistently with it yet. but that's my play style. i also like to use the TA-152 its a fun plane to fly. and 90 30mm is just great.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Triton28 on May 19, 2015, 11:25:08 AM
Both.
Love the K4 when I'm in the mood for overshoots, snapshots, and tourquey power moves. It has the potential to get you in and out of situations almost no other plane can.
Hate the K4 when my tater aim goes to hell and I can't hit the broadside of a barn. Some of my most frustrated times in AH have been in the toon cockpit of a Kurfurst clicking the trigger in desperation.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 19, 2015, 12:45:42 PM
My favorite med-high alt maneuver against more agile opponents. Wrong game and wrong plane set, but a very good demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahecxkZX7DE
Wish we had contrails like that. Would make SA and determining E-state easier.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 19, 2015, 03:09:33 PM
my typical play style, i fly the 190D a lot and sometimes the k4. typically with the d9 I take full fuel and a drop every sortie. I like to set myself to climb in a direction that will take me just out of the sector i'm going to. Then ill go afk and smoke a cigarette. when i come back I'm usually between 15 and 22k. if i think the fight is low ill drop to about 15k and pick up speed before i enter the fight. if i think there might be bombers around i'll head for the fight at 20k or so. I like to kill bombers so its nice to get to a fight at a good alt.
usually ill drop into the fight and slash attack until i get lower e. typically if i'm below 5k and slower than 400 it's time to extend and climb a bit. i've been pretty successful in the Dora not so much in the k4 :D
i really like the 190, because the cannons are great, lots of ammo and it takes just a few hits to get a kill. plus with the dora i can usually escape a bad situation, and it has enough fuel that i can leave climb and come back a couple of times.
I''ve just found that i can't get kills as easily in the planes with 6 .50 cals.
not really talking about the k4 that much i cant hit anything except bombers consistently with it yet. but that's my play style. i also like to use the TA-152 its a fun plane to fly. and 90 30mm is just great.
Maybe next time I see you on you can join my plane and I'll show you how to aim or at least set up the shots to aim the thing. It is very hard to be precise when aiming the K4 because no one really knows how exactly to aim it every time they set up for a shot. I use a 2 second burst on my shots.
What makes the K4 difficult is setting up for the correct shot without blowing all your E or losing all your alt. In a K4 you have to spiral dive on lower opponents to set up a nice deflection shot. In the 190D you can easily dive going 560 and still make a simple lead shot. If you miss, the 190D you can fly away and regain your alt without too much catching you. If you miss in the K4 you have to watch your 6 becuase planes who dive on you might catch you considering you have to cut throttle to dive and may have lossed a lot of speed going for a shot which you missed, and now roll over again and again to kill him, there by losing speed and alt which makes for an easy pick. As triton said, missing your shots suck in the K4 is frustrating as hell and becoming impatient to get a shot will cause you to lose a lot of speed and a lot of alt.
The way to fly the K4 is to beefin up your defensive techniques, again watch my film to see how I fight defensively and turn the defensive to offense without losing too much speed. I use a lot of flaps to get a slight extra lift and to work the vert, potentially rolling around my opponent to gain their 6. As you can see, I couldnt out roll the first spit soo I had to dive, as he was chasing me I used aileron to roll in the direction I wanted to pull up and then when the time was right and I knew the spit couldnt follow (black out), I right snap rolled In to get the shot on the scissors.
Watch my film Jumbo that was posted a page back. I missed quite a few "easy shots" but it is just hard to measure when exactly to shoot.
To be effective in the K4, or any 109. You have to fly about 12-15k max, fly it fast like you are zooming around in the air, and be very aware of SA, set up your shots using spiral dives, overshoots, or ropes (have to get close) (not like how you set up a shot with a 190, unless you rope), become very knowledgeable about defensive maneuvers, timing, ACM, and understanding what your enemy plane is capable of. All of this goes into flying the K4 because it is not suppose to be flown like a 190D or a Brewster.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: Someguy63 on May 19, 2015, 03:14:47 PM
Nice write up violator.
And the fact that you must learn to be effective with the tater can only be stressed so much in order to be successful in this plane in addition to everything V listed.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: The Fugitive on May 19, 2015, 03:47:24 PM
Maybe next time I see you on you can join my plane and I'll show you how to aim or at least set up the shots to aim the thing. It is very hard to be precise when aiming the K4 because no one really knows how exactly to aim it every time they set up for a shot. I use a 2 second burst on my shots.
<snip>
Maybe I can take you up on that offer too. After watching the film a few times I spent some time in the K4 this past weekend.
https://www.mediafire.com/?daavw4guu5d70lo
Yes I know my aim sucks :P
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: ISux on May 19, 2015, 03:49:17 PM
yea i find i have no problem getting shots its just hitting them lol. still its fun to use even when you die.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: bustr on May 19, 2015, 04:12:29 PM
Maybe next time I see you on you can join my plane and I'll show you how to aim or at least set up the shots to aim the thing. It is very hard to be precise when aiming the K4 because no one really knows how exactly to aim it every time they set up for a shot. I use a 2 second burst on my shots.
The last AH2 update, it looks like Hitech increased the random dispersion of the MK108 closer to real life. It also has a left hand spin drift tendency which shows up on the target as a preponderance of the rounds go about 2ft left at 400, then creating the impact pattern. Between 100-200 if you watch the target while only tapping the trigger, the usual three rounds for one tap can end up almost anywhere in a growing cone of 6ft dia to 14ft dia. And by 400 almost 30ft dia.
Can anyone tell the audience what the MK108 was created by Rheinmetall-Borsig to shoot down in WW2? And why that made the low velocity of 500m\sec, drop of 12ft by 400m, and crappy dispersion of 30ft dia ok for shooting it down?
Looked like Hitech got a copy of the Rheinmetall-Borsig Datenbleatter document for the MK108 ammunition specifications. Including powders, shell construction, drive rings, round type data, ballistic data, and spin drift chart. The real round had a spin drift, a slight horizontal curve in the trajectory, to it seems in our game, the left.
Like I said earlier in this posting, fly up their six until you can smell their lunch, then shoot. The 262 makes use of the crappy dispersion by ganging four as a shotgun. A single motor mount MK108 is about like trying to use a brown bess musket as a sniper rifle at 300 yards.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 19, 2015, 04:22:00 PM
Maybe I can take you up on that offer too. After watching the film a few times I spent some time in the K4 this past weekend.
https://www.mediafire.com/?daavw4guu5d70lo
Yes I know my aim sucks :P
The first thing I noticed was your flap usage. I think that was the biggest issue during the fight. If you would have gotten your flaps all the way down on most of your roll overs you would have got inside of him. The next thing I could see was your use of Vertical. I didn't quite see enough nose up movement to a roll over. Instead of rolling over horizontal try to nose up a bit higher, do an aileron roll, get more of your flaps out, and then loop back down.
at 3:38 - 3:50 you could have used a bit more vertical going into the first roll and then you should have got all your flaps deployed. You may have been able to get the shot. Then you go into another horizontal roll which your flaps should have already been out, and you may have gotten that shot. Instead the flaps went back to normal position and you can see how he almost got a shot on you. This is because you didnt have your flaps out and you went more horizontal in the roll instead of vertical. You have to go straight up, use aileron to position, get flaps out, cut throttle, and THEN loop over. You were going too fast.
At the 4:00 minute mark and again at 4:30, you should have completely deployed all your flaps (instead of 1 or 2 notches) and used that to roll over with a lot of rudder as you were going right. Also during the 4:30-5:00 mark, you should have used a lot more vertical immediately and snap rolled to the right (do a right vertical roll) instead of horizontally rolling to the left, you could have cut inside for a shot.
I think your biggest issue vs this fight was your flap usage, Vertical loops, and direction of the loops, If you would have gotten more flaps ( I only saw 1 or 2 notches out and used more vertical instead of horizontalyl always rolling to the left, you would have been able to cut inside his loops with a sharp right snap roll. You rolled right one time but didn't use enough flaps or rudder to get the nose around. I think you could have been a bit more aggressive performing the rolls aswell. Also using more of a vertical loop will allow you to get a better deflection shot on the opponent.
Hopes this helps a bit, only had a few minutes to watch and write this, so I thought Id mention a couple of key points I noticed.
You got em to auger soo good on you for that!! :aok
<S>
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: The Fugitive on May 20, 2015, 06:58:59 PM
I think I was pretty vertical at the first set of merges. We ended up in a rolling scissor. This picture was from about 310 to 340.
I did get behind him an could have followed for a shot, but my 1 vs 1 was now going to be a 3 vs 1. I instead rolled out to get my nose down hoping for one more shot and pretty much followed him in to the ground.
I thought I used the vertical when I could and when I didn't thought I had a good reason. I didn't drop as much flap thinking the drag would slow me too much so as always, I only used what I thought I needed/ could get away with. See he was flying a K4 as well I didn't want to burn E too fast in the event he wasn't.
I'll see if I have any more films.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 21, 2015, 12:41:19 PM
I did get behind him an could have followed for a shot, but my 1 vs 1 was now going to be a 3 vs 1. I instead rolled out to get my nose down hoping for one more shot and pretty much followed him in to the ground.
I thought I used the vertical when I could and when I didn't thought I had a good reason. I didn't drop as much flap thinking the drag would slow me too much so as always, I only used what I thought I needed/ could get away with. See he was flying a K4 as well I didn't want to burn E too fast in the event he wasn't.
I'll see if I have any more films.
Well here is the thing. If you are pretty sure you are about to get in a stall fight, it is sometimes good to drop flaps quickly and make a very quick strong vertical loop to cut inside them after you begin to get slow. You were playing it a bit too safe this fight after the merge. I saw many chances you could have got flaps all the way out to cut inside and go for the kill. This may have prevented you from getting ganged by not dragging the fight out too long. I like to be very aggressive in the 109s and the K has a very quick rate of acceleration, so don't worry too much about getting roped in a K . If you get flaps out quickly and roll around quickly this may save you time by getting the shot. I wasn't seeing enough vertical action before you began the roll arounds. Sometimes you have to pull way up and back and then roll around in order to gain a nose down deflection shot as you are coming down, Ie gain more alt and try to get behind them before you roll over, as they are pulling around. Notice how low the roll is. You want it to be a much higher oval shape. Don't worry about trying to be safe in the 109k during a stall fight unless you are fighting an a6m or brewster and some good spit pilots. You have to be quick and agile. Also, work on switching the direction of the rolls, the 109 does this quite well and it can allow you to gain a shot quickly. I know you don't fly the 109 that often, so I am just pointing out minor changes that will help you kill the enemy faster while not burning too much more E. Sometimes you have to get slow and cut E to get inside the opponent and a lot of times after a few roll arounds, they wont be able to rope anyway.
Title: Re: Bf-109K4, love it or hate it?
Post by: The Fugitive on May 21, 2015, 03:20:27 PM
Ya I never think I get aggressive enough. I think during the fight Im letting it all hang out and then I watch the film later and kick myself for being such a wuss. It could be because I know it's going to take me a number of shots to knock enough stuff off the other guy that I don't want to burn my E too quick.
Most of my fights end in a gang. Either its 3 on me.....took too long killing the guy, or I get a bunch of help for the same reason.
Will try pushing a bit harder as well as flaps out rudder kick type turns.