Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Karnak on May 21, 2015, 07:57:51 AM
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Metal scavengers are taking apart the wrecks of the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse and selling the metal as scrap. All of the 15 ton bronze propellers have been taken as well as over bits. Very sad to see this.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/11187603/Celebrated-British-warships-being-stripped-bare-for-scrap-metal.html
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I understand the sadness over a war grave being defiled. I also understand that people need to eat.
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I doubt any of the people capable of getting 15 ton chunks of metal from that depth are food insecure.
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I doubt any of the people capable of getting 15 ton chunks of metal from that depth are food insecure.
Well if NFL players need additional millions of dollars because they "have a family to feed"
Why not anyone else?
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A workingman's salary in Malaysia is about $3000 a year...
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A workingman's salary in Malaysia is about $3000 a year...
A working man in Malaysia doesn't have the capability to lift a 15 ton propeller from 200+ feet underwater.
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They must have been cut off, and probably cut into smaller pieces before being floated up.
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Salvaging those props would not have been worth it for anyone making a decent living...
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A working man in Malaysia doesn't have the capability to lift a 15 ton propeller from 200+ feet underwater.
He could grip it by the husk! :D
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Actually, I don't see much of a problem with it. It would be like leaving the rubbles of the World Trade Center towers in respect of the 5000 dead. Salvage and recycle the metal, clean up the sea and leave an underwater monument to the braves that lost their lives.
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Actually, I don't see much of a problem with it. It would be like leaving the rubbles of the World Trade Center towers in respect of the 5000 dead. Salvage and recycle the metal, clean up the sea and leave an underwater monument to the braves that lost their lives.
By that logic, they should do the same with USS Arizona....
It's a mass grave, and unlike the rubble of the twin towers, not a hazard. It should be left alone.
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I have some bronze port holes of a battle ship :)
i have no idea where they have come from :)
Scotland i think my dad used to work on oil rigs
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I have some bronze port holes of a battle ship :)
i have no idea where they have come from :)
Scotland i think my dad used to work on oil rigs
Highly incredible.. in the literal sense of the word.
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Highly incredible.. in the literal sense of the word.
The German High Seas Fleet of WW1 was scuttled in Scotland. It is possible the porthole is from one of those ships.
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By that logic, they should do the same with USS Arizona....
It's a mass grave, and unlike the rubble of the twin towers, not a hazard. It should be left alone.
Arizona was partially salvaged. Most of the superstructure and two of the main gun turrets were salvaged. The only reason they didn't salvage all of her was that it was impractical due to her extensive damage.
Arizona was the only ship sunk at Peal that wasn't completely salvaged. USS Oklahoma (BB-37) capsized and sunk taking 429 crewmen with her, but was salvaged. USS West Virginia (BB-48) was sunk, but was later salvaged. USS California (BB-44) was sunk, but salvaged. USS Oglala (CM-4) and a number of other smaller vessels were sunk, but salvaged.
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You see, a ship only becomes a grave after the owner has decided not to salvage the wreck. In my opinion the only crime these scavengers are committing is theft, since the ships technically is still British property, even when abandoned.
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The German High Seas Fleet of WW1 was scuttled in Scotland. It is possible the porthole is from one of those ships.
What's that got to do with fashioning a hole out of bronze?
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You see, a ship only becomes a grave after the owner has decided not to salvage the wreck. In my opinion the only crime these scavengers are committing is theft, since the ships technically is still British property, even when abandoned.
It's a grave if there are bodies within the hull. Those bodies can be recovered re-interred elsewhere, as they were from USS Oklahoma. USS Arizona was partially salvaged to recover what could be used to repair other ships as a wartime expediency. The ship could have been broken up where she lay. Supposedly, a second motivation was to eliminate the image of the wrecked superstructure as it was thought at the time that it could be demoralizing to view. We now know that it was inspiring, not demoralizing... The Navy elected not to remove the dead and ordered that the vessel be classified as a war grave. Later, by legislation Arizona was declared a national shrine.
Prince of Wales and Repulse have both been declared war graves and designated as "protected places" under the Protection of Military Remains Act of 1986.
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A UK law that Indonesians are under no obligation to abide by. The RN may of course try to protect the site since the ships are their property, but that's about all they can do.
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Arizona was partially salvaged. Most of the superstructure and two of the main gun turrets were salvaged. The only reason they didn't salvage all of her was that it was impractical due to her extensive damage.
Arizona was the only ship sunk at Peal that wasn't completely salvaged. USS Oklahoma (BB-37) capsized and sunk taking 429 crewmen with her, but was salvaged. USS West Virginia (BB-48) was sunk, but was later salvaged. USS California (BB-44) was sunk, but salvaged. USS Oglala (CM-4) and a number of other smaller vessels were sunk, but salvaged.
not trying to be rude here but; BB-31 (USS Utah) was torpedoed by the IJN during the attack and is still resting capsized on the bottom of the harbor. Your assumption that the Arizona was the only sunken ship that wasn't completely salvaged is a common misconception.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q569/bryguyw/0131492_zpsobhe0fv4.jpg) (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/bryguyw/media/0131492_zpsobhe0fv4.jpg.html)
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I stand corrected.
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It's a grave if there are bodies within the hull. Those bodies can be recovered re-interred elsewhere, as they were from USS Oklahoma. USS Arizona was partially salvaged to recover what could be used to repair other ships as a wartime expediency. The ship could have been broken up where she lay. Supposedly, a second motivation was to eliminate the image of the wrecked superstructure as it was thought at the time that it could be demoralizing to view. We now know that it was inspiring, not demoralizing... The Navy elected not to remove the dead and ordered that the vessel be classified as a war grave. Later, by legislation Arizona was declared a national shrine.
Prince of Wales and Repulse have both been declared war graves and designated as "protected places" under the Protection of Military Remains Act of 1986.
I still disagree, I understand the USS Arizona as it's conveniently place where people can see it, a reminder/motivator. The other two are out of sight. Recycle. As far as ground zero rubbles being a hazard for the sake of argument on mass grave :huh common now. I'm sure you understood my analogy.
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not trying to be rude here but; BB-31 (USS Utah) was torpedoed by the IJN during the attack and is still resting capsized on the bottom of the harbor. Your assumption that the Arizona was the only sunken ship that wasn't completely salvaged is a common misconception.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q569/bryguyw/0131492_zpsobhe0fv4.jpg) (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/bryguyw/media/0131492_zpsobhe0fv4.jpg.html)
That is a very eerie picture
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I still disagree, I understand the USS Arizona as it's conveniently place where people can see it, a reminder/motivator. The other two are out of sight. Recycle. As far as ground zero rubbles being a hazard for the sake of argument on mass grave :huh common now. I'm sure you understood my analogy.
A comparison between Prince of Wales, Repulse and the WTC is completely invalid on its face. There is nothing in common beyond initially containing the remains of dead.
Families of WTC victims wanted any remains they could obtain. There were physical, bio and chemical hazards that required clean-up because of real threats to health. Because the rubble covered a vast area of Manhattan, it required clearing.
If you weren't there or didn't visit, you may not realize the extent of the damage and health hazard.
Either way, a ship with hundreds of dead entombed is their final resting place. International treaties were drafted and signed to recognize this. War graves are expected to be treated with respect.
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That is a very eerie picture
It definitely is. They tried to get her upright but the process was too difficult and dangerous. As for the Oklahoma, they fully intended to put her back into service, but her old VT engines and the extent of the damage made it impractical after 1943. She was kept on as a hulk and eventually towed to the mainland for scrap, but on the way she sank again, almost taking her two tugs with her when she went down.
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I understand the sadness over a war grave being defiled. I also understand that people need to eat.
They eat bronze propellers?
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Protection of Military Remains Act 1986
The wreckage of all military aircraft (UK or other nations) that crashed in the United Kingdom, in United Kingdom territorial waters or in United Kingdom controlled waters are automatically protected irrespective of whether there was loss of life or whether the wrecking occurred during peacetime or in a combat. The wreckage of United Kingdom military aircraft are also protected under the act elsewhere in the world.
The law concerning protected places applies anywhere in the world, but in practice, outside the UK, the sanctions can only be enforced against UK citizens, UK flagged ships, or vessels landing in the UK, unless backed by local legislation.
In practice if the wreckage is in Malaysian waters even the protectors have no legal authority over the scavengers if Malaysia has not ratified the law. If Malaysia has ratified the law it is up to their authorities as well to enforce it as well.
The original article also talks about exposing of crew remains which I find highly unlikely. I'd say there is nothing left of the crew after all the years in warm waters, only pieces of their belongings, and the memory, which still makes it a "grave".
The value of these ships as scrap metal is huge in those parts of the world and I'm sure the "entrepreneurs" have no problem picking up a crew for such quests, plus the black market value for any of the personal or military items obtained from the wreck adds value, even significantly in some cases.
"They eat bronze propellers?"
Made of phosphor bronze, the massive propellors would have earned a bumper payday for the scrap metal merchants. The scrap price for phosphor bronze is around £3,800 per ton, with each of the eight propellors weighing an estimated 15 tonnes.
So one propeller is worth 57k £. I'd say a family would eat that propeller for a long time indeed in Malaysia. :P
But it is still sad, yes.
-C+
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And £57,000 wouldn't even pay the transit time for a western salvage ship and crew. Only poor people would try to salvage a wreck like that. There are thousands of wrecks laying on beaches and close to shore around the world that are not worth salvaging, except for local scavengers.
(https://lostphocus.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/karl-marx.png)
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From what I understand, part of the value of wreck sites like these is that they were constructed and subsequently sunk before any nuclear weapons were set off, which means they have about a 7% lower contamination rate than any steel forged after August of '45. Steel like this is valuable for use in Geiger Counters and some medical devices. That's why the Scapa Flow fleet, the US Reserve Fleet, and sites like this one are so prized.
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Saw this on a few of the archaeology sites I'm on....quite sad
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And £57,000 wouldn't even pay the transit time for a western salvage ship and crew. Only poor people would try to salvage a wreck like that. There are thousands of wrecks laying on beaches and close to shore around the world that are not worth salvaging, except for local scavengers.
(https://lostphocus.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/karl-marx.png)
Hey I resent that! Why would you put the picture of my fine yacht on like that? It just needs a bit of paint, that's all.
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From what I understand, part of the value of wreck sites like these is that they were constructed and subsequently sunk before any nuclear weapons were set off, which means they have about a 7% lower contamination rate than any steel forged after August of '45. Steel like this is valuable for use in Geiger Counters and some medical devices. That's why the Scapa Flow fleet, the US Reserve Fleet, and sites like this one are so prized.
How does the contamination get to the fresh iron ore mined from the ground? I've heard that certain types of metals (lead for example) decay over time so that the salvage metal is very precious. It has nothing to do with nuclear testing however, it's just the fact that the ingots are stored so long in the bottom of the sea.
http://phys.org/news/2013-11-controversy-roman-ingots-dark-neutrinos.html
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How does the contamination get to the fresh iron ore mined from the ground? I've heard that certain types of metals (lead for example) decay over time so that the salvage metal is very precious. It has nothing to do with nuclear testing however, it's just the fact that the ingots are stored so long in the bottom of the sea.
As I understand it, steel forged from 1945 onwards has higher levels of contamination because the repeated use of nuclear weapons has released a lot of radioactive materials into the atmosphere. These airborne contaminants get mixed into the steel during the forging process and there's not much that can be done to prevent it. Steel that was forged pre-Hiroshima will have 7 percent less contamination because it was forged in a cleaner atmosphere.
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No longer the case since the ban on nuclear testing.
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Yeah but the half-life of some of those substances runs hundreds of years. The levels are still significant enough to affect sensitive instruments made from post-nuclear steel.
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No, they have been reduced to 0.5% of background radiation.
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As I understand it, steel forged from 1945 onwards has higher levels of contamination because the repeated use of nuclear weapons has released a lot of radioactive materials into the atmosphere. These airborne contaminants get mixed into the steel during the forging process and there's not much that can be done to prevent it. Steel that was forged pre-Hiroshima will have 7 percent less contamination because it was forged in a cleaner atmosphere.
muzzy, I work at a steel mill. Would like to know your sources, I'll check on this.
semp
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Mostly just looking up different sources on the internet. That plus some discussions with physicists some time ago. If you do a search on radioactive steel and "scapa flow" you'll get a bunch of articles on the subject.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
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Mostly just looking up different sources on the internet. That plus some discussions with physicists some time ago. If you do a search on radioactive steel and "scapa flow" you'll get a bunch of articles on the subject.
I wont do the research for you. you made a statement, please do explain :).
semp
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
it says that current steel is back to normal.
semp
here's one of the sources quoted on your link
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2971/is-steel-from-scuttled-german-warships-valuable-because-it-isn-t-contaminated-with-radioactivity
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Correct.
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I know nothing about the subject except what the wiki says and it doesn't say normal it says 1/2 a percent above normal. So...it isn't back to normal but are ya'll saying it is close enough?
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"Maybe you're thinking: at last, a use for that pocket battleship I inherited from Mom. Sorry, the market for old steel is now pretty much sunk. Reduced radioactive dust plus sophisticated instrumentation that corrects for background radiation means new steel can now be used in most cases. There's some lingering demand for really old maritime metal, though. When researchers at one national lab wanted shielding that emitted no radiation whatsoever, they used lead ballast retrieved from the Spanish galleon San Ignacio, which had been lying on the bottom of the Caribbean for 450 years."
that is the last paragraph from one of the sources quoted on wikepedia.
semp
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Salvaged lead is especially pricey because lead naturally contains an isotope that prevents its use as a shielding material in measurement devices. The ancient Roman lead salvaged from an old wreck has decayed sufficiently enough to serve as shielding.
WW2 era wrecks do not apply however in this case.
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So short the battleships ang go long the galleons, got it.
Interesting stuff.
It is too bad about the British ships, war grave is one part but ruin is another. I mean in the sense of its a good thing the Greeks didn't recycle the Parthenon. Call me crazy but when they blew up the Trojan nuke plant's cooling tower I felt a little sad, I wonder what the future of ruins will be.