We can only hope it will be a waste of money. The contrary implies war.
No, the contrary doesn't imply war. :rofl
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 07:11:51 PM
If there's no war there's no need for it, thus it's a waste.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 07:24:12 PM
Or... there is a war but the plane fails to do what it was designed for and thus is a waste of money.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 07:25:22 PM
Yes, but if it is not a waste.... What does that imply?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 07:49:32 PM
It will be very hard and expensive to sort out all the problems and getting the F-35 combat ready and combat efficient. It is of course hard for any of us to know exatly what it is capable of but from what is heard the overall performance is so far a disapointment and it is a little worrying that it seems to have problems even on a basic level with aerodynamic and maneuverability. If so it will be almost impossible to fix it without a complete redesign if the plane. Software issues etc can be sorted out along the way but the basic airframe design must work.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 07:59:45 PM
If there's no war there's no need for it, thus it's a waste.
A weapon not used is not a waste. Look at our nuclear weapons, never used and yet it provided an efficient deterrent against Soviet attack and vice versa (MAD).
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 08:05:37 PM
The F-35 is doing that right now and it's not even in service yet. Look at the MiG-25, even if it's wasn't the fighter we thought it was it scared the snot out of our air force guys.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 08:07:59 PM
The F-35 is doing that right now and it's not even in service yet. Look at the MiG-25, even if it's wasn't the fighter we thought it was it scared the snot out of our air force guys.
Until we got our hands one on that was flown to Japan in 1976.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 08:09:45 PM
A weapon not used is not a waste. Look at our nuclear weapons, never used and yet it provided an efficient deterrent against Soviet attack and vice versa (MAD).
Yes, even the existance of a weapon system can prevent a war. u simply think twice before attacking a strong enemy.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 08:15:48 PM
A wide varity of sources. some of them reliable others maybe not so. As with everything on the net.
Name one of the reliable ones, if you please.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 08:29:39 PM
Sites like aviation week has a lot of good stuff.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 08:36:39 PM
Like cooks and ingredients, reporters are no better than their source... And often much, much worse. Can you link to an F-35 article in Aviation Week that you find reliable?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 08:40:50 PM
Look. U dont have any better sources than i have, u use the same google as i do so just cut it. U will not have any better sources to back up your claims than i have unless u are a F-35 test pilot, but then u would not be in this discussion.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 08:48:07 PM
Except I just posted what I consider a good source in this very thread. With a reporter who actually visited a F-35 unit and spoke with the pilots.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 08:50:19 PM
And perhaps you're not aware, but we have or had a USAF guy here on the bbs that works on F-35's...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 08:50:54 PM
:rofl Yes, they will of course tell the entire truth about any problem on national television.
U can start here: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-f-35s-air-to-air-capability-controversy-05089/
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 08:51:55 PM
Here is what I see, from a Maintainer point of view (Crew Chief of AF-03)
Alot of what I read on here is crazy. Some of the things people come up with. The F-35 is following along with every other plane that has been developed. They all have been over priced and over budget. Its going to happen. Deal with it. We are constantly working to make these planes better and better. Right now we are down for a 3rd stage cracked blade out of AF-02. Who knows how it happened. Could be a bad blade or could be just one of those freak things that happen. Cracked blades in jet engines occur a little more than what people think (talking about all jet powered aircraft in general). Its a safty precaution to ground the fleet till this gets sorted out and the problem fixed. Better to get it taken care of then to possibly lose a jet and/or a life of a pilot. So just because you hear that the fleet is grounded, dont take it as a bad thing.
Most people tend to hate on things they dont really understand cause they read a few negative things online or in a paper or magazine. Dont believe everything you read. Our program is making great strides, and out of the 50,000 or so test points we have over 20,000 accomplished. We still have a long way to go, but we are making it happen.
I cant really go into much detail, but have the things in here are not true that people say. Just call it a little insider info........
A F-35 test pilot's view on the silly performance comparisons being made between the F-35 and legacy jets.
I would say a DOD report is a resonably reliable source. And if u read the links i have posted u will see that there are pilots questioning the claims made by LM and their test pilots.
And yes - I know that new planes suffers from setbacks during develpoment, but atleast most of the manufacturers do the development before they start full scale production.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 09:38:52 PM
Since u apparently didnt read i quote myself:
Quote
It will be very hard and expensive to sort out all the problems and getting the F-35 combat ready and combat efficient. It is of course hard for any of us to know exatly what it is capable of but from what is heard the overall performance is so far a disapointment and it is a little worrying that it seems to have problems even on a basic level with aerodynamic and maneuverability. If so it will be almost impossible to fix it without a complete redesign if the plane. Software issues etc can be sorted out along the way but the basic airframe design must work.
I did not said more than if the claims are true about the aerodynamics etc is true its worrying, i even said that software problem can be sorted out.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: palef on June 04, 2015, 09:46:40 PM
Since u apparently didnt read i quote myself: I did nont said more than if the claims are true about the aerodynamics etc is true its worrying, i even said that software problem can be sorted out.
Errrrr, whut?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 09:49:20 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 09:52:05 PM
Im at work...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 09:54:14 PM
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 09:55:30 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 10:02:21 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 10:10:36 PM
It might be ignorant to claim its the worst/best fighter ever but discussion issues brought up by media etc is not. Even if we dont have first hand information about performance we do have the reports about cost issues, delays, developmnet problem etc and its not ignorant to discuss them.
Im a reg nurse with enough heavy drugs in my possesion to keep the patients from bothering me during my night shift...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 10:22:33 PM
:rofl :aok Remind me never to get sick in Sweden. ;)
I don't know how old you are Zimme, but I was around when the F-16 was the new thing everybody loved or hated. It was the same thing in the media about cost overruns and performance issues. Being small and cheap(ish) it was a radical departure from earlier USAF fighters and a lot of people thought it would be an abysmal failure. And early on they were dropping like flies from all sorts of engine and electrical issues. I think there were something like 20 accidents in 1981 alone. But in the end the F-16 turned out ok. So far only one F-35 has gone up in smoke and that seems like progress to me. But like I said, I'm ignorant, so don't quote me on that.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 10:33:25 PM
I know how it works, Gripen saw the same debate. The difference now is that u guys have put all your eggs in the same basket, F-16 was intended as a day time fighter from the very beginning. F-35 is intended to replace pretty much everything from Hornets to Warthogs and Harriers. If the F-35 are unable to fulfill all these rolls it can have serious impact on the US military capacity. The teen fighters are getting older and older and the F-35 dont have too much time left before it have to start replacing the older airframes.
And there are a lot of other countries involved, countries that are less resistant to increased cost than the US. To European countries there are alternatives like EF, Gripen and Rafale. If the cost for F-35 goes too high there are a risk that European customers will choose another aircraft and leave US taxpayers with an even higher burden.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 11:00:26 PM
There's always a risk, but if you are not willing to risk the unusual, you will have to settle for the ordinary, and that just won't do. How many alternatives have Sweden developed to the Gripen? Same thing. The Gripen was an enormous risk and impressive achievement for such a small economy. Let's say for arguments sake that all the F-35's spontaneously combust and the whole thing is dropped. The F-16 is still in production and every bit as capable as the Gripen or Rafale. The F-18E is still in production and just as capable. Sure, a lot of money has been dumped into the F-35 program, but no risk no gain.
As for the media I tend to agree with this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMvMb90hem8
Brilliant comedian. Love his routine on gamers since we're the same age (if you haven't seen it look him up on youtube).
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 11:14:52 PM
That doesnt mean that a project cannot be discussed or critizised. It would be very bad if noone asked questions when the costs are skyrocketing.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 11:38:04 PM
It's even worse to act (yes talking is an act) on unreliable information and increase the risk of the program with unnecessary criticism and bad publicity. Politicians are subject to public opinion. The cost issues surrounding the F-35 have been wildly misreported by many who don't understand the numbers involved. People who mix up unit cost with lifetime cost. People who don't get that the F-35 has a 50 year planned lifetime compared to 25 years for the F-16... And so on and so on. It's like what Dara O'Briain says, the media all too often give far too much time to horsesheit peddlers and wackos rather than the people who know what they're talking about. And WE who listen to the media mostly don't know who is who...
I asked you earlier about that report you linked to, but I didn't get an answer so I'll ask again: Do you understand what the report says and what in that report do you find worthy of criticism?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 12:02:17 AM
Most people also don't get that the price tag of a fighter pales compared to the operating costs. After a few hundred flight hours you've spent more money on fuel and maintenance than what you paid for the aircraft. It cost thousands of $$$ just to fill one up with fuel. In terms of total investment over its lifetime the actual price tag for the initial purchase is only a tiny part of the total. The media don't get these things and neither does most people.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 12:09:32 AM
Actually I've heard it compared to driving a car that need two hours of service at the shop after each drive... and it runs on bull sperm. :uhoh
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 05, 2015, 12:48:57 AM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 12:54:19 AM
So... I'm not free to criticize people who argue from a position of ignorance?
And I notice you still haven't answered my question.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 05, 2015, 01:24:38 AM
Yes u can. But it is a waste of time. Im not gonna argue about my right to express myself, either we discuss the F-35 or the conversation is over.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 01:35:31 AM
Ok, then please answer the question about that report you linked to: Do you understand what the report says and what in that report do you find worthy of criticism?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 05, 2015, 01:43:23 AM
Both the very low sustained turn performance and the very low weight margin is causes of concern.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 01:59:24 AM
Is this the part you're concerned with?
Quote
The program announced an intention to change performance specifications for the F-35A, reducing turn performance from 5.3 to 4.6 sustained g’s and extending the time for acceleration from 0.8 Mach to 1.2 Mach by 8 seconds. These changes were due to the results of air vehicle performance and flying qualities evaluations. • Discoveries included: -- Delayed disconnects during air refueling required the program to implement restrictions on the F-35A fleet and conduct additional testing of the air refueling capability. The program added instrumentation to isolate root causes. -- Horizontal tail surfaces are experiencing higher than expected temperatures during sustained high‑speed / high‑altitude flight, resulting in delamination and scorching of the surface coatings and structure. All variants were restricted from operations outside of a reduced envelope until the test team added instrumentation to the tailbooms to monitor temperatures on the tail surfaces. The program scheduled modification of one flight sciences aircraft of each variant with new skin coatings on the horizontal tail to permit flight testing in the currently restricted part of the high‑speed / high‑altitude flight envelope. The test team is adding more flight test instrumentation to help quantify the impacts of the tail heating to support necessary design changes. The program scheduled modifications on one aircraft (AF-2) to be completed in early 2013 to allow flight testing of the new skin design on the horizontal tails to proceed.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 05, 2015, 02:47:40 AM
I am not concerned at all, i dont have to pay for the plane.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 05, 2015, 03:04:34 AM
No one that are even the slightest interested in the F-35 have missed the issues around the development program. All I did was saying that if its true that there are problems with the basic design then the F-35 have serious issues. I did not said that it was the case, other people did, as shown in the links. If u have problem with that then u should avoid the internet, for your own good.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 03:34:15 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 05, 2015, 04:02:51 AM
So your arguments is that the issues with the F-35 should not be discussed because it hurts the program and because they doesnt exsist... It doesnt even matter if i post a, in your eyes, reliable source or not. People are talking about the issues. Media, aviation magazines etc, even pilots within the U.S Armed Forces. U know it as well as i do. I just said that we of course dont know but if it is true then the F-35 has serious issues.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 04:21:58 AM
What I don't like is people who don't know what they're talking about talk about the things they know nothing about... Regardless of what they're talking about. The F-35, vaccinations, climate change, chemtrails, moon landings, reindeer herding, whatever...
I have never heard anything negative about the F-35 from pilots who have flown the aircraft. Pilots from USAF, USN, Marines, RAF. If you know of an F-35 pilot that has expressed anything but praise and awe of the capabilities of the F-35 I would very much like to hear/read about it.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 05, 2015, 04:27:19 AM
Test pilots etc arent reliable sources either, if they had issues with the F-35; they would not talk about it in public.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 04:42:10 AM
I didn't mention test pilots. The F-35 is in service with the USAF, USN and Marines and have been for quite a while now. They're not combat operational, but are being flown and evaluated by military pilots.
Here's an Aussie pilot's impression:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DfHXCbQ0CI
Nellis getting their F-35 for training:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfussT-U6Bk
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Latrobe on June 05, 2015, 05:09:10 AM
If a 109F4 got into a 1 on 1 fight with an F-35, the 109F4 would win in under 4 seconds. :neener:
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 05:14:03 AM
That's a given. The 109F is the best fighter of all time and ever. :airplane:
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 05:50:38 AM
Interview with Marine Corps pilots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej8rEYrMQRc#
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Ack-Ack on June 05, 2015, 12:26:19 PM
Usually when a fighter has been deemed ready for operations, such as the F-35 with the USMC, it usually means that the fighter is ready from the date of the start of operations for combat. However, the F-35 when it goes into operational service with the Marines later on this summer, it won't be operational ready and won't be for some months because of serious issues with the software that they estimate won't be fixed until late fall or early winter and even then those estimates are optimistic.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 06:43:18 PM
Usually? Since when? The YF-16 first flew in 1974. The first production F-16A flew in 1976. It took four years before it entered operational service in 1980 with the 34th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 388th Tactical Fighter Wing. However it still had lots of temporary operational limits due to a number of problems and limited to only Sidewinders in the A2A role. In 1980 seven F-16A's crashed due to a number of engine and avionics related problems. In 1981, 15 F-16's crashed. The whole fleet was grounded several times. It wasn't until the F-16C/D Block 25 upgrade in 1984 that the full A2A potential was reached with the ability to carry radar guided missiles. It took ten years from first flight to a mature weapon system. The F-35A first flew in December 2006, nine years ago, and it is a helluva lot more complex weapon system than the F-16 was back then.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: ink on June 05, 2015, 07:58:41 PM
you know what would be truly inspiring
if they took the time and money they spend on these "projects"and put it towards actually helping mankind and not massacring....
now THAT would be something to write home about.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 08:00:28 PM
Well, they are putting the money into helping ourselves not being massacred...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: ink on June 05, 2015, 08:13:30 PM
:rofl
that is all.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 05, 2015, 08:52:10 PM
Yes, if only there were no evil men. Kumbayah and all.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: MiloMorai on June 06, 2015, 05:04:04 AM
Well, they are putting the money into helping ourselves not being massacred...
Massacred by whom?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: SlipKnt on June 06, 2015, 05:25:20 AM
Having seen the F/A 18 and AV8B Harrier in the CAS roll in combat and knowing what the USMC is going to get out of the F35... The F35 will be the best plane (IMHO) once it is FINALLY in service.
You would think though, for $400 BILLION you would want it working right when it rolls off the line.
However, the F6F is where it is at!!!
:rock
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Ack-Ack on June 06, 2015, 06:02:55 AM
However, when you want to combine contemporary evil with evil classics, comfort and style: (https://syriaupdate.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/ahrar4.jpg?w=595)
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Dragon Tamer on June 30, 2015, 01:48:31 PM
However, when you want to combine contemporary evil with evil classics, comfort and style: (https://syriaupdate.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/ahrar4.jpg?w=595)
Cheap maybe?
I was thinking it would be funny that a group that seems to hate American culture so much would drive American vehicles.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Ack-Ack on June 30, 2015, 03:06:47 PM
I was thinking it would be funny that a group that seems to hate American culture so much would drive American vehicles.
They do, ISIS has a few thousand humvees and a tens of M1A1 main battle tanks, along with a myriad of other US made vehicles.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on June 30, 2015, 05:30:16 PM
Toyota is really big in much of the 3rd world, they have >50% of the market. Even had a war named after them, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War
And yes, ISIS has a lot of american equipment, even Hizbollah is in possesion of the Abrams: (http://www.longwarjournal.org/assets_c/2015/01/KH-thumb-560x315-5587.jpg)
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: vHACKv on July 01, 2015, 05:24:11 PM
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Squire on July 02, 2015, 09:48:43 AM
"I want to massacre non-beleivers...but I want to do it driving something practical but with nice options like AC and XM Radio..."
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: dirtdart on July 03, 2015, 05:15:56 AM
Lol... ISIS and Abrams. Could go on and on about the maintenance on those. I am now the XO do an ABCT.
The F35 is a bold concept. The fact that two F35s roughly equal a ship aside, we are learning much from the program. As long as we protect what we have learned it may be worth the investment as a deterrent. We now have fifth generation attack fighter and bomber aircraft. To engineer a national integrated defense network to counter this will require other nation to commit resources. No telling what the cost would be in relation to the F35. That will be the check to see if it is "worth it."
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: JVboob on July 04, 2015, 02:48:07 AM
I saw a frontier. ISIS drives nissian too i knew it. Does ISIS have the proper training and equipment/supplies to actually operat the M1A1? An BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT can handle a few M1s
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 04, 2015, 12:45:43 PM
For the cost of one F-35 you can have two F-16 and two A-10, plus spares, ordinance and still train and pay for pilots and crews for them. ;)
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 16, 2015, 08:18:58 PM
For the cost of one F-35 you can have one-and-a-half F-16, maybe.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Squire on July 16, 2015, 09:47:48 PM
Hogwash...those are 2012 prices from Lockheed that are ridiculously optimistic and don't even include the cost of the engine. Nobody beleives an F-35 goes for a measly 100 million.
defense-aerospace.com:
Quote
PARIS --- The Pentagon and Lockheed Martin on Dec. 14 signed the final contract installment for the fifth production batch of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, concluding negotiations that had to be extended for an extra year.
The F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) said that the price of the Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) Lot 5 aircraft declined by 4 percent over the previous Lot 4 contract, initiating a long-expected decline in the cost of F-35 that, it says, will ultimately lead to a halving of current prices.
The JPO also released the final LRIP unit price for each of the three F-35 variants. These prices are: -- $105 million for each of 22 F-35A Conventional Take-off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft for the US Air Force; -- $125 million for each of seven F-35C Carrier Variant (CV) aircraft for the US Navy; and -- $113 million for each of 3 F-35B Short Take-off Vertical Landing (STOVL) aircraft for the US Marine Corps.
These prices are expressed in BY12 dollars, and do not include the aircraft’s F-135 engine, which is procured separately.
The average unit cost of these three variants is $114.3 million, rising to $146.3 million when the cost of its engine is added. (See Table 2)
Lockheed Awarded $5.8 Billion for Lot 5
Given the degree to which the JPO prices continue to vary compared to the total value of the various LRIP lots, and to determine whether the source of the discrepancy could be identified, we analyzed all of the Lot 5 contracts that have been made public by the Department of Defense.
According to this research, Lockheed has been awarded ten contracts for LRIP Lot 5, for a total value of $5,876 million (see Table 1). When this is divided by the number of aircraft (32), the cost of each airplane averages $183.6 million, or double the JPO prices detailed above.
Furthermore, once the cost of the Pratt & Whitney F-135 engine is added, the cost of a complete Lot 5 aircraft increases to $223.03 million. (As the final cost of LRIP 5 engines has not been finalized, we have used the $39.4 million cost of LRIP 4 engines).
We readily acknowledge that this this is an imperfect way of estimating unit costs. However, dividing the total cost of a production batch by the number of aircraft it comprises is, however imperfect and approximate, the most comprehensive way of determining the price taxpayers actually end up paying. And this approach leaves no room for creative accounting.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: DubiousKB on July 16, 2015, 10:21:26 PM
Am i mistaken, but didn't a the ol' F-16 beat the F-35 in recent dogfights??
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Muzzy on July 17, 2015, 01:15:31 AM
I'm pretty sure the OP would say the P 39 could beat the F35 in a dogfight and some might even agree with him. :bolt:
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: JVboob on July 17, 2015, 02:27:57 AM
Hogwash...those are 2012 prices from Lockheed that are ridiculously optimistic and don't even include the cost of the engine. Nobody beleives an F-35 goes for a measly 100 million.
defense-aerospace.com:
That "journalist" is a typical example of people who don't know what the quoted numbers mean or represent. You will need to buy the engine separately because Lockheed Martin do not make engines. If you buy an F-16 (also a LM product) you will also need to buy an engine from GE or P&W.
The flyaway cost of an F-35A is now $98 million (+engine). However a deal with the USAF (or other air forces) includes a lot more than just the aircraft. It includes spare parts for 50 years and maintenance/logistics support from Lockheed Martin.
Back in 2013 the UAE bought 25 new F-16Es from Lockheed Martin in a deal worth 4-5 billion Dollars. That's up to 200 million per aircraft. Simply dividing the total Dollar amount of the deal by the number of aircraft does not tell you what the aircraft cost, because a deal includes so much more than just the planes.
And as I said in the other thread when you spouted more idiotic numbers from people who don't know what they represent: (And these numbers are flyaway costs for the aircraft alone.)
The cost of the F-35 is not insane at around $100 million per unit. An F/A-18E costs $60 million and has been in production for a long time. The current cost estimate for the F-35 is that by 2018 the unit flyaway cost has come down to $85 million.
A Eurofighter Typhoon will set you back $90 million. A Rafale costs $101 million. A new F-16 will cost you anywhere from $70 million to more than $100 million depending on what options you want.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 17, 2015, 11:31:06 AM
Am i mistaken, but didn't a the ol' F-16 beat the F-35 in recent dogfights??
You're mistaken.
A test aircraft without a lot of its systems flew a series of tests against an F-16 and the F-16 was found to be more maneuverable. No big surprise since the F-16 is more maneuverable than all other fighters in the world with the possible exception of the F-22 and the European double deltas. I would have been shocked if the F-35 could turn and burn with a Viper.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: bozon on July 18, 2015, 08:52:56 AM
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: JVboob on July 19, 2015, 04:24:05 AM
I do love the mossie but the 38 is still better im pretty somewhat almost decent in both
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 19, 2015, 06:44:34 AM
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Latrobe on July 19, 2015, 11:52:57 AM
We should stop wasting money on the F35 and make more A-10's.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 19, 2015, 12:27:12 PM
How and why?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: DEECONX on July 19, 2015, 01:16:01 PM
It's going down the same route as the V22. Lot's of early teething problems. Hope they get it sorted out. Beautiful plane, but needs to be functional.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: 633DH98 on July 19, 2015, 04:57:42 PM
If they do get all the bugs out of it it will just be a jack of all trades and master of none.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Squire on July 19, 2015, 11:46:58 PM
If you don't like the data just attack the source and/or the poster...whatever floats your boat sparky.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 20, 2015, 10:15:38 AM
There's a universal truth when it comes to data of any kind; be it market data, intelligence data or news data: Data is only as good as its source. Source criticism has never been as important as now in the information age.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Squire on July 22, 2015, 02:28:44 AM
American taxpayers, the U.S. military services, and foreign purchasers — all of whom have been promised F-35 aircraft for as little as $85 million each — are in for a rude awakening. When real F-35 purchase prices unfold in the future, they may be as much as they are today—averaging more than $200 million per aircraft.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: DubiousKB on July 22, 2015, 10:55:54 AM
Remember kids, 95% of statistics are made up....
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 02:04:14 PM
Squire, got any other irrelevant two-year-old articles that make assumptions about the future we're already living in?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Squire on July 22, 2015, 02:24:43 PM
Quote
about the future we're already living in?
Oh I didn't know the F-35 program had run its course already.
...not to worry its just another article written by some hack with a lot of nonsensical data because it doesn't show the F-35 at 85 million per unit like we all know it is like the nice man in the Lockheed commercial said...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on July 22, 2015, 02:33:48 PM
Oh I didn't know the F-35 program had run its course already.
...not to worry its just another article written by some hack with a lot of nonsensical data because it doesn't show the F-35 at 85 million per unit like we all know it is like the nice man in the Lockheed commercial said...
U must understand that only information from the pro F-35 side, like LM. are trusthwothy. Any source claiming there are problems with the F-35 are lying...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 02:43:01 PM
Anyone who doesn't have access to the information necessary to form an informed opinion may not be lying in the strictest sense, but nor should you give any weight to their opinion. I'll withhold my judgement until people who actually have first hand knowledge voice their opinions. A project this huge involving this many services from this many countries cannot hold a dirty secret for long. If there's a problem someone will blow the whistle. So far all I hear is praise and awe.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on July 22, 2015, 03:07:59 PM
And people are blowing the whistle all the time, u simply refuse to accept it...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 03:09:47 PM
Please name one person who has first hand knowledge of the F-35 and has blown the whistle.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on July 22, 2015, 03:25:06 PM
And that is exactly your problem. No one will stand in front of a camera and tell u that the plane is a piece of crap. If someone on the inside do think that they will leak it anonymously. U just refuse to accept anyhing but the pro F-35 info as valid. The answer to everything is "its under development, in 10 years it will be solved".
The A-10 debate for ex. I fully understand that people are sceptical to having the A-10 replaced in the CAS role by a plane that can carry a fraction of the ords that the A-10 can and have a gun pod that have ammo for 3 secs. Its a valid question beacuse low and slow its stealth skin wont protect it. And its a valid fear that a F-35 at 25k dropping SDB:s isnt as effective as an A-10 on the deck for supporting ground troops.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Squire on July 22, 2015, 04:42:55 PM
The Light Attack/CAS mission has been completely abandoned in favor of Drones and costly Supersonic Fighters. F-35 good or bad.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 06:36:36 PM
And that is exactly your problem. No one will stand in front of a camera and tell u that the plane is a piece of crap. If someone on the inside do think that they will leak it anonymously. U just refuse to accept anyhing but the pro F-35 info as valid. The answer to everything is "its under development, in 10 years it will be solved".
There it is. You actually think the US Air Force, US Navy, US Marine Corps, Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, Royal Australian Air Force, Israeli Air Force, Italian Air Force, Italian Navy, Japan Air Self-Defense Force, Royal Netherlands Air Force, Royal Norwegian Air Force, Republic of Korea Air Force, and the Turkish Air Force are all involved in a grand conspiracy to hide the truth that the F-35 "is a piece of crap", as you put it.
Instead of believing the people who know you chose to believe gossip and speculations produced by people who are not privy to the facts and have no way of actually knowing the truth.
That's like believing in "chem trails" or that the moon landings were hoax'. That's insane.
Why can't you just believe these men and women? How can you rationally call them liars without one single piece of evidence?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Squire on July 22, 2015, 06:52:35 PM
I think folks can ask legitimate questions regarding the cost and effectiveness of a weapons program without being accused of over the top witch hunting and conspiracy theories.
There have been plenty of DoD projects cancelled or curtailed after the project in question did not live up to cost and/or performance hopes.
...but to suggest that because certain Air Forces expressed an interest in buying the F-35 does not give it any kind of automatic pass either.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 07:02:05 PM
What I'm reading here on the bbs and in the media has nothing to do with asking "legitimate questions", and everything to do with slander. Something the media is very good at.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 07:07:43 PM
...but to suggest that because certain Air Forces expressed an interest in buying the F-35 does not give it any kind of automatic pass either.
See all those flags on the fuselage... These nations do not merely express an "interest" in buying the F-35. They are partner nations in the F-35 program, having already paid millions of Dollars to develop the jet. They will want their money's worth.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 07:15:46 PM
The partner nations have contributed with more than 4 billion Dollars (wikipedia's number), or about 10% of the total development costs of the F-35 program.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on July 22, 2015, 09:17:39 PM
The partner nations have contributed with more than 4 billion Dollars (wikipedia's number), or about 10% of the total development costs of the F-35 program.
Still no point in spending the money to develop and building the aircraft.
Because 40 billion dollars for something we don't need, will end up being less effective than the platforms we already have is certainly a solid investment
“You could argue it [the F-35] was already one of the biggest white elephants in history a long time ago,” stated former U.K. defense chief Nick Harvey in a May interview. Harvey then doubled down, saying there is “not a cat in hell’s chance” the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) would be combat-ready by 2018. While it is noteworthy that a person of Harvey’s stature would level such harsh criticisms, his statement merely reflects the conclusions of reports by the U.S. Defense Department’s Director of Operational Test & Evaluation (DOT&E), the Government Accountability Office (GAO), the Congressional Research Service, and various independent air-power analysts: The F-35 program is a mess; it is unaffordable and will not be able to fulfill its mission.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on July 22, 2015, 09:23:39 PM
Still no point in spending the money to develop and building the aircraft.
Because 40 billion dollars for something we don't need, will end up being less effective than the platforms we already have is certainly a solid investment
That's your uninformed opinion based on Mike Fredenburg's uninformed opinion. Why should I give any weight what so ever to your opinion, or his, compared to the USAF, USN and Marines? Obviously I should not, and I don't.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 10:24:26 PM
There you go sir, a Quote directly from Major John Wilson, an F-35 pilot.
So now, why is the F-35 replacing the A-10?
It isn't replacing the A-10. The A-10 will, eventually, be retired without a replacement dedicated CAS platform. As the Major says the A-10 flies only a small percentage of CAS missions. CAS is mostly performed by other platforms like the F-16 and F/A-18.
That video is an excellent example of how pilots who actually fly the F-35 have nothing but praise for the aircraft, and how all you naysayers are listening to the talking heads on TV rather than the professionals who actually know what they're talking about. Did you actually watch the video? lol
Great find. Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on July 22, 2015, 10:47:24 PM
It isn't replacing the A-10. The A-10 will, eventually, be retired without a replacement dedicated CAS platform. As the Major says the A-10 flies only a small percentage of CAS missions. CAS is mostly performed by other platforms like the F-16 and F/A-18.
That video is an excellent example of how pilots who actually fly the F-35 have nothing but praise for the aircraft, and how all you naysayers are listening to the talking heads on TV rather than the professionals who actually know what they're talking about. Did you actually watch the video? lol
Great find. Thanks for sharing!
I'm sorry, but let's use logic:
F-16, combat capable NOW, can do what an F-35 will be able to do. F-35, combat capable 2018+ , can do what AN ALREADY EXISTING PLANE CAN DO IN THE US FLEET, +40 billion down the drain.
Now if you were listening, you'd hear him say that the F-35 will be as capable as an F-16. And if it is only going to be as combat effective as an existing aircraft... Can you finish the rest in your head? :banana:
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on July 22, 2015, 10:52:01 PM
That's your uninformed opinion based on Mike Fredenburg's uninformed opinion. Why should I give any weight what so ever to your opinion, or his, compared to the USAF, USN and Marines? Obviously I should not, and I don't.
Huh..... Would ya look at that
Quote
his statement merely reflects the conclusions of reports by the U.S. Defense Department’s Director of Operational Test & Evaluation (DOT&E), the Government Accountability Office (GAO), the Congressional Research Service, and various independent air-power analysts...
Hm. I didn't know Mike Fredenburg is former U.K. defense chief Nick Harvey.
Which Mike is quoting Nick here. And Nick is referencing the uh.... Department of Defense.
Yes yes, do tell me more about how Mike Fredenburg runs the entire DoD and is also a former UK defense chief. I'd like to sit down and have a drink with this Mike Fredenburg one day. Sounds like an interesting guy by the way you put it.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 10:58:29 PM
Yes, lets use logic.
1. The USAF, USN and Marines all want this aircraft and anyone who has flow it has nothing but praise for it.
2. You, whom has no first hand experience with the F-35, think it's a waste of money.
Whose opinion should I logically place more trust in? Yeah, it's not you...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 11:04:46 PM
F-16, combat capable NOW, can do what an F-35 will be able to do.
You have no idea what so ever what the F-35 is, and will be capable of doing beyond what little declassified information Lockheed Martin and the DoD have released to the public. To think that you can make an informed opinion with so little info is just insane. And to claim otherwise is just hubris.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on July 22, 2015, 11:04:55 PM
:rofl
Yes, yes. Did you hear that it was only as capable as an F-16? So you're all for the US Spending 1.5 trillion on essentially an F-16 with a fancy paint job and new name? I know somebody I wouldn't trust with my life savings.
And You have first hand experience with the F-35 then? Because if not you're opinion has no more weight behind it than mine.
EDIT: Had to fix the price of what the full F-35 program will cost.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on July 22, 2015, 11:06:33 PM
You have no idea what so ever what the F-35 is, and will be capable of doing beyond what little declassified information Lockheed Martin and the DoD have released to the public. To think that you can make an informed opinion with so little info is just insane. And to claim otherwise is just hubris.
And you do? So you know for fact that the F-35 will be better than an F-16? Because you've seen LM's documents on the F-35's capabilities?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 22, 2015, 11:14:29 PM
The Major said the F-35 was as capable as the F-16 in the CAS role, but in any other mission the F-35 would win hands down.
Check the rest of this thread. I've not made any claims as to what the F-35 can or cannot do, except what the people in the know have released. How could I? How can anyone?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on July 23, 2015, 05:31:43 AM
Because there are info about the performance, both from LM and DoD. Thats were the concerns about poor acceleration and turn performance are coming from. Concerns that LM fails to give a good answer to. Only response is that it will not need those capabilities anyway so it doesnt matter. And that its really worrying. Several countries have start to doubt in the F-35, if prize isnt going down and LM starts to deliver combat ready planes soon im sure we will see countries that drop the 35 for another fighter.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Rich46yo on July 23, 2015, 09:23:21 AM
Im very circumspect about anything I read about the F35. You had the two largest defense conglomerates going head to head to win the JSF contract, the biggest in History, with the X35 winning over Boeing's X32. I imagine that upset Boeing cause the contract would have put them on top military aircraft-wise. So who knows how many paid off Senators, Congressman, spoke person's, Generals, media outlets, and assorted goons they have mobilized to bad mouth the F35 and their competitor. Especially since so much is riding on the F/18 Growlers Boeing is trying to talk the Govt. into buying at 90 m a pop to make up for the F35's supposed short comings.
This from a company who whole heartedly endorsed the concept of the JSF up until the time their flawed X32 rightfully lost the fly off. Their design and plan was deeply flawed and so we have these two Industrial Giants purse fighting over what it can and can not do even tho the supposed "test" was made with a F35 stripped of its stealth and avionics, "I guess that F16 pilot speaking out will land a sweet gig with Boeing soon".
Its just hard to be anything but a cynic when reading claims anymore. There is so much big money at stake and so much soft money being tossed around...Opinions are so easily bought today.
Secondly where exactly is the threat that should force us to spend even more money to get a system up and running that is already way over budget? The airplane is one big flying computer with 5 times the software code of the F22 and while there have been a few glitches the software development has probably gone better then expected. These so called "failures of the code that result in certain systems being delayed" are often just development blocs that are being achieved according to schedule.
The USMC is choosing to go ahead with declaring "operational" with a current software block. The software needed to operate the gun has always been scheduled for 2017. The USN is requiring block 3F before they declare operational, which will be late '17 or early '18, because they feel they have no definitive need for the system, with an earlier software block, before then.
Why would that be? I guess ISIS is not an air threat and the Russians and Chinese are still stumbling around trying to copy a 1st gen stealth aircraft. So why rush anything when there is very little need to do so?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 23, 2015, 02:32:55 PM
Because there are info about the performance, both from LM and DoD. Thats were the concerns about poor acceleration and turn performance are coming from. Concerns that LM fails to give a good answer to. Only response is that it will not need those capabilities anyway so it doesnt matter. And that its really worrying.
You may be worried, but the people who fly the F-35 are not. The F-35 was not designed to beat the F-16 by out turning or E-fighting it. The USAF/USN/Marines did not order a plane capable of doing that. They ordered a long range, stealthy, multi-role strike fighter. The Joint Strike Fighter.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 23, 2015, 02:37:34 PM
The Boeing X-32... God, I'm glad we didn't get that one. The village idiot of stealth planes.
You may be worried, but the people who fly the F-35 are not. The F-35 was not designed to beat the F-16 by out turning or E-fighting it. The USAF/USN/Marines did not order a plane capable of doing that. They ordered a long range, stealthy, multi-role strike fighter. The Joint Strike Fighter.
The F-16 is a multi-role strike fighter too... As most modern fighters. It doesnt mean that they are giving up the fighter capability. I really dont see any good reason for rejecting turn fighing capability when developing a new fighter. The F-35 concept isnt really that new. Most modern fighters are multi role/ swing role, capable of doing everything from dog fighing to photo reccon and CAS. How can it be desirable to build a plane that is screwed if its long range missiles miss?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 23, 2015, 03:06:45 PM
The F-16 was designed as a light Mach 2+ interceptor. Over time it has become a strike fighter. Very few fighters can turn and burn with an F-16.
You still don't get it. I don't have an opinion on the F-35. I'm not in any way able to have an informed opinion with the limited information available to me. Neither are you.
The F-16 had two (2) drop tanks, it should be more than enough to even the odds for a clean F-35....
No. A two-bag Viper will out fly the F-15, F/A-18, Mirage 2000, Su-27 and most other primary air-2-air fighters in the world. At least in the opinion of C.W. Lemoine, who has flown F-16s and now fly F/A-18s for a living.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on July 23, 2015, 03:33:40 PM
Oh yes u have, a very strong opinion...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 23, 2015, 03:35:50 PM
And what might that be, pray tell?
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 23, 2015, 05:11:59 PM
Ten Signs The F-35 Fighter Program Is Becoming A Smashing Success:
"I have an emotional attachment to the F-35 because I have worked with many of the companies that build it, including prime contractor Lockheed Martin, for much of my adult life (the program was awarded to Lockheed on October 26, 2001 — the day I turned 50). So when I see a widely-read pundit describe the plane as a “laughingstock,” as I did last week, I resent it. Are there really people out there that believe three presidents, three military services, and eight allies would pour a hundred billion dollars into a fighter that doesn’t work? Apparently there are."
Yes they're out there, and you know who you are...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on July 23, 2015, 06:35:55 PM
"I have an emotional attachment to the F-35 because I have worked with many of the companies that build it, including prime contractor Lockheed Martin, for much of my adult life (the program was awarded to Lockheed on October 26, 2001 — the day I turned 50). So when I see a widely-read pundit describe the plane as a “laughingstock,” as I did last week, I resent it. Are there really people out there that believe three presidents, three military services, and eight allies would pour a hundred billion dollars into a fighter that doesn’t work? Apparently there are."
Yes they're out there, and you know who you are...
That's your uninformed opinion based on Loren Thompson uninformed opinion. Why should I give any weight what so ever to your opinion, or his, compared to the U.S. Defense Department’s Director of Operational Test & Evaluation (DOT&E), the Government Accountability Office (GAO), the Congressional Research Service? Obviously I should not, and I don't.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 23, 2015, 09:05:58 PM
Finally. Someone gets it. :aok
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: PR3D4TOR on July 23, 2015, 09:12:45 PM
Or did you...
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Zimme83 on August 07, 2015, 03:26:04 AM
It seems to me that much of the argument about the F-35 is that its sensors will be so far ahead that it can detect and defeat any threath long before the con can engage the F-35 in any kind of fight. While this is true for a low tech 2nd/3rd world opponent. (like it was in Iraq) with cold war fighters and lacking AEW. It might not be true for the newer Chinese J-20 and J-31 designs. We dont know much about the progress and capabilities of those programs so its hard to speculate if thay can stand up to the F-22/F-35. But it seems that by the time F-35 is fully operational and has replaced the teen fighters the chinese will have their stealth fighters operational as well.
The worst case scenario is that J-20/J-31 is fully capable to meet F-22/F-35 on equal terms (or atleast eliminate most of the sensor advantages that they have over older fighters.) and that is something that has to be concidered when discussing the development of the F-35.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Dragon Tamer on August 08, 2015, 01:24:43 PM
Ray, this thread is your greatest triumph.
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Dragon Tamer on August 08, 2015, 10:54:58 PM
I sexually Identify as an F-35. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the towns dropping bombs loads on disgusting peasants. People say to me that a person being a F-35 is Impossible and I’m diddlying awesome (For loving F-35s) but I already know , I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install Wings, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Lightning II” and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can’t accept me you’re not worthy of speaking my name (For not liking F-35s) and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on August 10, 2015, 01:32:32 PM
I sexually Identify as an F-35. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the towns dropping bombs loads on disgusting peasants. People say to me that a person being a F-35 is Impossible and I’m diddlying awesome (For loving F-35s) but I already know , I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install Wings, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Lightning II” and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can’t accept me you’re not worthy of speaking my name (For not liking F-35s) and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding
Ok first of all, I'm pissed at you. Hereby consider your Teamspeak Server Janitor privileges revoked. :mad:
Title: Re: Greatest fighter ever built besides the p39
Post by: Dragon Tamer on August 11, 2015, 06:20:36 PM