Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LePaul on September 07, 2001, 11:45:00 AM
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I dunno when this became vogue, or if it has always been an issue that just comes up from time to time.
Here's my thought...If you pilot your aircraft directly into the path of mine, and begin firing....then complain when I pop off some 30mm's back at you and destroy you, do not private message me "Lame head on, dude" style messages. This happened to me twice last night and once last week.
Last night, on the second occasion, a P-51 turned at me and fired away, wounding my pilot...I was RTB'ing in a G10 from a hi-alt anti buff sortie. With my pilot passing out every 30 seconds, when I "awoke" for a few seconds, I saw the P-51D 1.1k in front of me and closing fast, guns blazing. So, again, I plug away with the 30mm before I pass out again. When I 'come to' again, I see the kill message, note my right aileron, flap and elevator are gone, and have a lovely private message yelling at me for a "lame head on". Nevermind the P-51 attacked me and made an all out effort to do what I did to them.
I mean, it seems kettle-hot-black...but as far as I knew, head ons are part of the game. I just find it humorous those accusing me of it are the ones who instigated them!
Anyone else seeing this trend? We all hate being shot down, but don't cry at the guy for shooting back, folks!
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This isn't new, I think you've been missing out on the quality whines up 'til now! For some reason tho', nobody ever complains to me when I HO them with my P51b. Wierd. :D
SOB
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LePaul,
I'm surprised you hadn't noticed this before. HO whines are a constant and ongoing thing.
I have 3 points about HOs:
1: It takes two to HO. It is easy to avoid an HO. If you were in an HO it was your fault.
2: HOs were rather common in WWII. They were dangerous of course, but common nonetheless.
3: A front quarter shot is not an HO. An HO is only when both parties can shoot at eachother while flying straight and level.
If you get in front of me and head straight for me, I amy or may not "flinch" depending on what I am flying and what you are flying. If you want to go head to head with my Tiffie, Il-2 or Mossie expect to get shot at.
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Complaints about HO's and accusations about HO'rs parentage have always been there. I'm guilty of saying something on squad channel after I get killed during one to this very day.
But I never answer private channel whines. And I've gotten a few too ;) Be it for vulching, gang banging or their colliding with me but saying it was my fault and that I rammed em. I just squelch them and chuckle.
That being said. I now HO every N1K2 I see. No matter what :)
Westy
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Heh BD couple months ago you made a "Half Cuban Eight" in front of me and I climbed up and shot you from front quarter when you were in top of it. Next I saw a your text in buffer, something about HO.
I said something back and squelched you after that :D
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HO's, vulchin', chute shootin', sexy virgin sheep, all great things to do!~
I'll HO ya, I'll vulch ya, I'll shoot yer danglin' bellybutton right outta that chute, AND most impotently, I'll laff meself delirous if ya's PM me to whine, cry, and or snivel about it!
I'm a jus' wishin' dem fellas at HTC would gimme 30mm gunpods fer ma Dora so dem HO's really violated yer bootocks!
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People will whine about anything, especially if they die because of it.
Even in AW, when headons were nearly impossible because 97% of headon hits were thrown out, headons were one of the biggest whines on the list.
Personally, I've started to enjoy headons lately. I used to always avoid them, but I've found out that sneaking in a headon in the middle of a good fight can be more fun than shooting someone in his chute. :)
Now if I could just find more good fights. :/
anRky
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Originally posted by Staga:
Heh BD couple months ago you made a "Half Cuban Eight" in front of me and I climbed up and shot you from front quarter when you were in top of it. Next I saw a your text in buffer, something about HO.
I said something back and squelched you after that :D
LOL....well, had you not squelched me, you would have seen I calmed down and said "Well done" :) Bastid!
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Ya know I will point my noise towards the enemy everytime, now I am not trying to go nose to nose but if my nose is traveling towards the front area of his plane he isn't behind me. Will I shoot if I have a shot? You bet your bellybutton I will. The point is to win, that is all just win.
Now dueling is a different story and I think this is where the problem stems from. In most duels I have fought it is agreed upon to merge guns cold until after the 3/9 line. After that give at it. Now I started flying WWII online with WB H2H ladder only. I got used to this guns cold merge. I was horrified when I started flying in an arena and some somsqueak shot at me on a nose on merge. After reading Shaws numerous times, I find it safer and advantagous to point my nose in the direction of my opponant, pass on shooting at him unless I have a high % shot, make a better merge than my opponant and then kill them.
Don't squeak about my merge and I won't cry when I get killed ;P
S!
Rocket
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Just type this in to the radio for them.
http://lephturn.webhop.net/hodefense.htm (http://lephturn.webhop.net/hodefense.htm)
I re-read it myself from time to time when I get sucked into a HO and get killed. :)
BTW, what Rocket mentions is one reason why I NEVER agree to a guns cold merge when training students or practicing myself. The reason is that it is a needless complication and it hurts my fighting skills. Nobody in their right mind would go for the HO straight off in a duel anyway... it's just too easy to counter. Train the way you fight, fight the way you train.
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]
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Normally I just troll around here since I left a few months ago and haven't renewed my account altho I suspect I might be soon, But I just can't resist dispelling this myth that HO's can always be avoided, that they are always your fault, and that it takes two to make one.
A. often if you avoid you will give the attacker the advantage.
B. The poster's example proves he was NOT looking for an HO but was forced into it.
C. often in a multiple vs one situation you can find yourself in a HO not of your intention.
as for the whine I do agree that HO's happened alot in the actual war (too many examples to quote but Bong comes to mind)
so I do agree that the whine is stupid
BigJim
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Myth my ass... it's fact.
I've only died to HOs that I've flown into. I always live through HOs and turn around to kill the bandit when I go for a better shooting aspect.
What does this mean?
HOs are only HOs when both of your noses are pointed at each other. Otherwise it's a half assed attempt and we all know half-assed attemps lead to failure.
Don't do a HO, take evasive action and save energy to put the fight on your terms.
Can't believe people still believe HOs can't be avoided.
-SW
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I die from HO , 99%I try to avoid HO's,sometimes its a crack shot who did a hard skidding rudder move and nailed me with a lucky shot.
It happens .
I cannot believe there are people who believe it cannot happen.
I just dont waste my time complaining about it. It happens.
The saying "It takes two to HO" is just a whine by the anti-whiners to whine about the whiners. IMO of course ;)
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i'll always ho a hi nik or spit ix (different story if they are low). the g2 is limited against them (or at least in my incapable hands).
- can't outrun em
- cant out turn em
- cant outdive em
- cant out climb em
i'll start with a fancy move and sometimes it works, but all they have to do if they are smart is point their nose at me and from that point anything i do, they can match.
once they are on your tail you're dead, even if you are barrell rolling and pulling evsaives, it's just a matter of time til enough mosquitos see you injured and come buzzing around in a swarm to finish you off. best to at least have you guns pointed at them. ;)
all you guys who fly d9s, p51s, g10s, la7s etc - keep in mind not all of us can engage and disengage at will. and the only way to fight turners is to go sighseeing in the puss-o-sphere and come down every 2 hrs for a bounce. the ho becomes an effective defense when cornered - if for nothing else than getting them to turn.
- and ps - someone wisely posted an example once i forget who now so i can't properly credit them but- try to ho a drone offline...it is very difficult unless both parties engage.
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I can't even remember the last time I died to a HO.
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Its not so much the HO's as the ramming that almost inevitably follows. I've got no problem with going nose to nose with a guy, I usually fire a really short burst and then break off, but lately I've noticed that it appears that 99.5% of people in the MA will go for a shot, any shot, if they think they have a tiny chance to hit you. They also won't budge- they fly straight at you wth guns blazing until either you die or they do.
And oftentime, you CAN'T get out of the way, at least it has seemed that way to me.
This actually brings me to another question, which is the "net lag" effect in rams. A couple months ago, I thought I had it figured out, but I don't. I thought it was whoever "saw" the ram, i.e. was looking at the other plane and saw them run into you, that got "blamed" for the ram, and killed. I actually thought I had a good case here, because I had a 8 or 9 kill sortie in an M3 a few months ago, and my last 2 kills were rams. I deliberately rammed a couple airplanes that were trying to take off after I had run out of bullets for that uber .50 :). I was careful NOT to look at the enemy airplane when I rammed them, and it seemed to work, they collapsed and I took no damage.
However, in the past few days I've been rammed 5 or 6 times by people that were still going for a shot as I manuevered out of either a head-on pass or a tail-end bounce (that one was last night). I'm watching them (I typically try to barrel roll out of the HO), and I see them adjusting their course to try to shoot at me, only to drive their plane right through me. In the last night one, I was in a Ki-61 and was attacked by a spitfire as I took off. He managed to miss on his first pass (while I was still on the ground) and came around again as I lifted off the runway. I was only doing about 150 or so, so I "broke" left (as hard as you can at 150mph...). I was watching the Spit out the back (the Ki-61 has an atrocious rear view, by the way), and when it looked like he was going to overshoot, I rolled 180 degrees so I could keep track of him through the top view, and maybe get a snapshot off at him. Instead, I watched him continue to try to follow me through my turn, and we collided canopy to canopy.
Now, my question is this- On my end, I'm watching psychotic Spit and P51D drivers try to ram me with their airplanes after I manuever away from their guns. What are they seeing on THEIR screen? Am I like 200 yards farther away and they are still tracking for a shot when I suddenly just explode into flames? How does this game determine who gets "blamed" for a collision? To me at least, it appears that the person with the fastest connection always gets blamed, no matter what- I've NEVER seen an enemy go down in flames that I hadn't shot right before, but it happens to me all the time. Or does it? Does it show as a ram on my end, but on their end they shot the "me" that was 200 yards away and I blew up?
Anyway, if anyone knows the answer to that question, I'd very much appreciate it. Oh, by the way, it is a QUESTION, not a WHINE. I'm sure some folks will call it a whine anyway though, so I don't even know why I bothered.
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the only person that can ram is you... never your opponent who then flies away as u cascade to the deck in widdle bitty pieces
SKurj
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: SKurj ]
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Ah.. no. I simply disagree Skurj. In the example with the Spit that I gave, I was doing about 150 mph. The Spit was going 300+mph, at least I'd guess. Maybe 275. After my turn, I ROLLED 180 degrees, I didn't turn back into him. I was flying straight, albiet not level and not at a wings level attitude to the horizon, but I wasn't manuevering for a ram of ANY kind. As I said before, he continued his turn into me after he had overshot to a point where he had NO SHOT on me with his guns (at least on my end he didn't).
Try this experiment. Have someone chase you running 8 mph, while you try to get out of the way at 4 mph. When he hits you, are you going to say "excuse me, didn't mean to run into you!". No, you are not (well, I hope not), because it is obvious who's fault the collision was.
My QUESTION was, did that Spit ram me intentionally, or did he see "me" as being in a different spot that he had no chance of occupying while I was still there?
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ill fire at a HO but rarely press it home i prefer to try to roll out and watch the real unskilled HO'ers flop around trying to get the final burst killing off 'e' by the bucket load.If they have some skill they will be entering their next move :)
its a great way to tell if your attacker is good or not :)
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hmm I ride over peds and joggers all the time on my mtn bike, its always their fault :D so that slow plane theory isn't correct :D , as far as HO's go, hell a little fun never hurt anyone. Besides the people that whine about HO's are the same morons that whine about everything else anyways, and it is good entertainment on channel 1. JERRY JERRY JERRY.
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1. HO's can be easily avoided provided you have enough speed to maneuver. If you are low on speed, a 0G shallow dive will help you accellerate to maneuvering speed, and it's what you would normally do in an HO merge situation anyway. (dive below his nose)
2. The avoidance maneuver conserves energy and often translates into a gain in both angles and E over the bogey. This is because you are lead turning vertically at a point when he is still flying straight shooting at you. In addition, you are generally gaining E from a relatively low speed at the start of the maneuver, while the attacker is often diving to very high speed, bleeding some of his E advantage away due to the higher drag. Also because he will be moving much faster if he started with more E, your turn radius will be much smaller, so you can turn inside of him if he tries to reverse with you.
3. Sometimes it's in your best interest to accept a head-on. It's a low percentage/high risk shot, but it may be all you have. If you fire at the other fellow, you are participating in the head-on situation, and you should expect to be damaged at least 50% of the time.
4. Collisions are detected on your front end, always. It's not relevent where you are looking, only where the objects are on your FE. If you run the 3d object of your plane into another object on your FE, you collide with it. It's that simple. It doesn't matter what the lag is or what the other fellow see's on his FE, only what happens on yours. You can hit his plane and collide, while he avoids you on his FE and does not. It must be this way because of lag.
5. It's almost impossible to intentionally ram somebody while flying an airplane in AH. On the ground in a vehicle, you can likely make weird things happen due to very low speeds and network smoothing code that is optimized to track fast moving airplanes not barely moving vehicles. In the air you would have to guess the lag and fly some distance in front of him. Even then, if he saw you and avoided, he doesn't crash.
Sorry guys I'm rushed. I'll come back to this later tonight for more info/questions if I can.
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Urchin cried on open channel forever last night about someone purposley ramming him. I have no idea who this guy is, and why every post is 7 paragraphs long, but I enjoyed laughing at his rants. Now they are getting old.
Fatty is the only one I know who intensionaly goes for a ram kill when out of ammo. It's almost impossible I think, but you have to respect the kill em all attitude. Plus it's historic, the LW had squads that removed guns to make planes faster just to ram bombers. Those guys were friggin nuts.
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It ain't easy. The only two times I've been successfull were once vs a bomber that was out of ammo (crashed thru his tail section, killing both of us), and rammed an F4U once with a c47 (was at about 100 feet and managed to ditch that one).
It's nearly impossible to hit even on your own FE on purpose, and on the majority of times I actually succeed (which are very few) I'm usually the only one dying.
I've had a lot more collisions on accident than I have had trying for them.
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Had 3 guys attacked me. Killed 2 of them by HO, 3rd guy got me but so did I. Got kill too :)
it simple JUST DO IT, HO ;)
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Many times in the MA I'd much prefer to ram someone than shoot them. It's harder.
Last night I was trying to vulch a Sturmi in my Zero. I put the last of my cannon in him while he was taking off, and got him smoking (fuel leak, I think).
I zoomed back up, then came down fast on his six, blasting away with my bbs and rammed him from dead six o'clock.
I 'think' he just kept on flying.
anRky
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I find that pretty pathetic. The guys a hypercrit for private msg'n you squeaking after he attempted a HO. Anyone can avoid the HO by simple flying away from the incoming plane. Obviously that was his intent. I'm glad he lost that duel.
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<S> Swulf another well thought out and stated reply. Heres another <S> to your bellybutton (which is always showing)
BigJim
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HO's can not always be avoided, very untrue, every time you try to avoid a HO you give your opponent a snapshot opportunity, even if it is fairly brief. I fly the Typhoon quite a lot and almost all avoid HO'ing me. When this happens I have considerable success with my brief moment of opportunity, if they go under, I push the nose down, adjust with rudder at 600d and fire short bursts, most of the time I get the kill because I've had lots of practice, I'll occasionally get them when they break left or right and if they go vertical they're history too.
And hopefully you all know what happens if you don't try and avoid HO with the typh :)
OKI, I whine quite frequently about the N1K but think HO's are fine, so your statement can't be all that true.
:)
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Urchin, next time your in a HO and the enemy is not trying to avoid the collision, don't try and avoid it either. Just a theory but most of the time I'll try to manvr to avoid a collision and I take damage while the moron who flew straight into me fly;s off. I tried just letting go of the stick the last few and amazingly did'nt die? might be wrong but this is possible cause?
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1: It takes two to HO. It is easy to avoid an HO. If you were in an HO it was your fault.
Really depends on how you define a HO. With the definition you're using, a HO is when two planes put themselves at a collision course going straight at each other, both trying to go for a shot in the face. It is not necesarilly a definition I agree with :).
2: HOs were rather common in WWII. They were dangerous of course, but common nonetheless.
And not *that* effective. In AH, a HO as defined by you in #1 will result in one or both planes going down in flames 90% of the time. But they happened and were even part of military doctrine.
3: A front quarter shot is not an HO. An HO is only when both parties can shoot at eachother while flying straight and level.
Here's the gist of the discussion. Say I turn into an enemy to increase closure rate and angles and spoil his shot - if there's enough distance between us, I'll come into a position where I can bring my guns to bear. I then have the choice of either taking the HO, or trying to avoid it. if i try to avoid it, is it then no longer a HO but only 1 plane taking a "front aspect" shot? I'm not too sure about this.
Or the loop fights, which result in one or more nose-to-nose passes - essentially snapshot HO's for both planes. Very hard to avoid, and in doing so, one certainly gives up position. Still, giving up position and working one's way back to an advantage or extending beats the 50-50 odds of a HO (assuming both planes have equal guns).
Scissors properly executed can also result in a series of nose-to-nose passes, where both planes can open up at once and destroy each other. Again, if you tuck yer nose under his lift vector and avoid the [whatever it is], are you avoiding a HO, or avoiding a front aspect shot?
Similarly, let's say two planes are heading directly at each other nose-to-nose. They're clearly on a collision course. At the last possible second, one of the planes makes a hard break and avoids a collision. Now, were they on a collision course, or merely "front aspect closing"? :).
What I am trying to say is that a HO is more than just two planes firing at each others faces. There's a setup involved - and that's the interesting aspect of the HO discussion.
When I avoid a HO, or refuse to take one, I do not believe I was avoiding a front aspect shot - I *deliberately* put my plane out of his gunsight - let's for the sake of the discussion assume it was by a mere fraction of a degree.
How many degrees separate a HO situation from a front aspect shot? I dunno; I guess Andy Bush could be helpful here :).
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Santa, most of what you described are not HO's, they are front quarter snapshots.
Once either aircraft have started to manuever, or you have multiple aircraft entering an existing fight, its a whole different ball game.
An HO is where both aircraft approach one another on a general 12 line to 12 line direction from a distance and one or either begin to fire from a nose to nose aspect.
80% of what you guys are talking about in this thread are not even HO's.
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If you die it's because you gave the other guy the opportunity to kill you. Get over it.
Hooligan
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75% of my kills are HOs!
I love em!! I need em!!!!
HO me baby, HO me!!!!
:)
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creamo.... urchin is the best stick in the game. It is unfortunate that plane modeling and unfair features in AH have kept this a little known secret. Most of these things that are keeping him down are subtle and therefore require large posts to clear up.
lazs
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StSanta,
In my opinion, once the fight is joined and close there aren't any HOs. HOs only occur in the merge. If the faster palne breaks off and then come back in a remerge you can have multiple HOs in one fight. In the looping and scissors fights you described the shots are almost only front quarter shots. It is rare that both aircraft have simultaneous shots, and above and beyond that, neither aircraft can easily avoid getting into position for a frontal shot. If you are trying to defeat an enemy and you have a shot and don't take it your not really trying to win. I usually won't accept an HO in the merge, but if I get one during a fight you bet I'll fire.
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Originally posted by BigJim:
Normally I just troll around here since I left a few months ago and haven't renewed my account altho I suspect I might be soon, But I just can't resist dispelling this myth that HO's can always be avoided, that they are always your fault, and that it takes two to make one.
A. often if you avoid you will give the attacker the advantage.
B. The poster's example proves he was NOT looking for an HO but was forced into it.
C. often in a multiple vs one situation you can find yourself in a HO not of your intention.
as for the whine I do agree that HO's happened alot in the actual war (too many examples to quote but Bong comes to mind)
so I do agree that the whine is stupid
BigJim
You guys must be playing a different game than I am. I can easily avoid an HO in 95% of all cases of 2 planes meeting co-altitude in the sky. If anyone in this thread (who believes HO's cannot be avoided) does not believe this to be the case, go to the training arena with me tonight and prove me wrong. I will avoid damage from the HO andthen work my way to your 6 o'clock and kill you in most all cases. There's no black magic houdini action involved, it's pretty easy.
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...and when you hear someone scream and yell about someone "intentially" ramming them, mark them off as nuts or ignorant, or both. Or better yet, tell them to go to the training arena, and intentionally "ram kill" me. I'd have to film that one. ;)
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hblair as soon as I renew my account I would "LOVE" to learn your secrets for avoiding the HO with good results I never was able to master it, most times when the attacker was pressing the HO and I tried to avoid I wound up "shot down". To be sure pilot skill makes a LARGE difference in any engagment, but to most of us dweebs the HO avoidance is more a "myth" than "reality" and I have heard the same claims time and again so I must need training very badly thanks for the offer.
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: BigJim ]
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i believe the ho's have more to do with the damage models than anything else. the fact is forces around a prop and the forces going over(and under) the wings , in reality, would deflect most shots from the front.
it has more to do with using a HO as yer only acm verses one of many acm's in yer repetoire(sp.) in most cases the person using the head-on fears an extended engagment so opts out with the attempted quick kill. i personally enjoy the fight for 6 pos and will only use the HO acm if 1. its being used against me, 2. its a tough buff and the sooner i cut a wing the better, and 3. i'm completly outnumbered and need to clear the playing field a bit. those that live by the head-on, to me, don't have the security of experience in ACM.
its not just knowing an acm, its being able to putem together in a string of acm's, or compound ACM's, as i call them. ACM's in and of themselves take time to perfect, not to mention adv. ACM's, then trying to combine em..... well now yer talkin years of flight. peeps aren't interested in that in this day and age--its more about making the top of the board, than the time and effort put into making yer plane "dance." imho
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HO's.. sad but true.
what Milenko and Lephturn said :)