General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Grin on July 11, 2015, 08:37:57 AM
Title: Red Tails
Post by: Grin on July 11, 2015, 08:37:57 AM
Watching it now as a friend suggested I watch it and try to execute one of the maneuvers that a Pony did in the movie. I'm just short of 7 minutes in and have written a 3-page report on errors in flight dynamics and historical/physical errors, including lack of O2 masks over 10k feet and 240mph lateral slide in 109s. :bhead
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: FLOOB on July 11, 2015, 08:55:08 AM
Watching it now as a friend suggested I watch it and try to execute one of the maneuvers that a Pony did in the movie. I'm just short of 7 minutes in and have written a 3-page report on errors in flight dynamics and historical/physical errors, including lack of O2 masks over 10k feet and 240mph lateral slide in 109s. :bhead
Go watch John Wayne in Flying Tigers and you will get the same report. If you are watching either movie in hopes of historical accuracy you are out of luck. If you keep in mind that it is entertainment aimed at a different audience then aviation history junkies, you'll be fine.
I watched it with my youngest son who is African American. He also is deaf. He loved the Mustangs. Even more importantly to me was when he saw the black pilots. He walked toward the TV and signed that he and the pilot on the screen were the same.
As a little kid watching Flying Tigers I got the same reaction. I was going to be that John Wayne pilot. The rest of the detail didn't matter much but I sure did look for anything to read about the Tigers. That movie didn't teach me history either or anything about P-40s. But I sure learned about them because of it.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: FLOOB on July 11, 2015, 10:01:39 AM
Awesome. Just awesome Guppy.
I know that is feeble and trite but I'm really at a loss for words. And I'm not being snarky or a dick.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: FBKampfer on July 12, 2015, 01:47:47 AM
I get that it's for a different audience, but that audience is dumb.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Guppy35 on July 12, 2015, 01:50:57 AM
I get that it's for a different audience, but that audience is dumb.
So you knew all the history before you watched your first war movie? I'm impressed :)
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: hgtonyvi on July 12, 2015, 02:03:38 AM
When red tails came out I was so eager to watch it. I went to see it the first day it came out. It sucked so much I ended up leaving half way of the movies and came back home to play aces high lol.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Naughty on July 12, 2015, 02:10:23 AM
I love when the 109 just "flips" nose over tail, over the mustang at full speed and shoots him. I recreated that move successfully in Aces High. The only difference was I was in a Nik, and a 109 was on my 6. I knew he would over shoot, so just as he got into range I pulled up hard. he was a better shot than I thought, and he blew my tail off. My Nik flipped over just as he passed underneath me. I pulled the trigger and filled the top side of his ride with 20mm. reviewing the film, it looked exactly like that move from redtail, except for the whole "missing tail" issue ;)
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Guppy35 on July 12, 2015, 02:18:16 AM
I was quick to jump on the bash the movie bandwagon. As I said my little guy set me straight. It did the job for him.
Go watch Flying Tigers with John Wayne. It's the same story for the most part. Evil bad guy pilot. Wing man who thinks he knows it all. Bad decision gets another pilot killed. Romance in the background. Wingman dies in the end having learned his lesson. Awful flying scenes if you are a rivet counter. Funny part is I loved that movie as a kid. I cringe at it now
Lucas was pretty clear that he was making the old Saturday afternoon matinee movie aimed at a younger crowd. That's what Flying Tigers was back in the day.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: guncrasher on July 12, 2015, 02:21:07 AM
hey why dont you do a 3 page review of what's wrong with star wars flying. hey to warm up do a paragraph on top gun where when maverick meets viper the hard deck is 10,000 feet and yet 100% of the action is below the hard deck.
semp
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: ML52 on July 12, 2015, 02:27:36 AM
Keep in mind there are still young people that don't know that there were black men flying in WW2. My high school history teacher denied that there were even after a classmate brought in his father's official photo album that showed him getting his wings!
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: JVboob on July 12, 2015, 02:34:44 AM
the dude takes a 30mm to the chest and his pony takes a ton of taters. yet my phony pony just disenegrates with one ping!!!! german tators need nurffed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! whaaaaaaaaaa :rofl
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: DEECONX on July 12, 2015, 10:27:06 AM
That's a great point of view Guppy. And that picture always makes me smile :aok
I remember watching it for the first time at a friends house. He is very much like me in that when he is excited to show someone something he loves he is eager to see their reaction. I remember having to pretend that that was a good scene or "woah, that was cool!" even though the AH'er inside was telling me this was all wrong hahaha.
But then again, the reverse happened with Fury. I remember loving that movie and taking said friend to see it and while he did enjoy it you could tell the ending definitely was having him go "really? Yeah right..."
Funny how that happens. :old:
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: guncrasher on July 12, 2015, 02:01:40 PM
the dude takes a 30mm to the chest and his pony takes a ton of taters. yet my phony pony just disenegrates with one ping!!!! german tators need nurffed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! whaaaaaaaaaa :rofl
last night I ho'd a hurricane with my pony. he blew up and I kept flying with just an oil leak. later I got a pm asking me why would I ho a hurricane with taters. well, I did because it makes me smile.
only reason I got hit was because I opened up at 800 and saw parts flying all over the place and started laughing and forgot to pull up so he hit me just as he blew up.
semp
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Chilli on July 12, 2015, 05:18:10 PM
I was fortunate enough to have actually hear a Tuskeegee Airman talk, long before this movie's conception. There was a lot more to the Red Tails' legend that would definitely not have made a good movie viewing experience for the mainstream audience.
Now, imagine taking an important part of history and making a movie showing countless hours of studying, practicing, campaigning, struggling against ancient prejudicial ideas to overcome bleak odds, dying, and yes, even sometimes flying in combat in a "strictly" historical detailed portrayal. That movie wouldn't even make a good Blue Ray disc Frisbee, no matter that this is what "American Exceptionalism" was coined after.
I remember interviews including Tuskeegee Airmen pilots who did consult on the movie. They were satisfied with the "swagger" (like that of John Wayne) that accurately portrayed their crew and pilots. These consultants, as well our own cartoon pilots :airplane: in AH, must have had hundreds of accounts of extraordinary cockpit moments. Now, go out there and recreate just a couple of stories with real aircraft and pilots and make it "memorable". Otherwise, forget about putting any butts in the seats to recover any part of your investment (the real qualifier to decide if the filmmaker was successful or not).
What did you expect? I find it hard to believe most of what I have seen on "Dogfights" but I do not question the integrity of those who lived to bring the accounts to life in oral history and recreation. "Red Tails" did excite my imagination, and as an adult who was well aware of these men, I praise the filmmaker's efforts. :cheers:
Guppy, you are doing a fine job raising a new generation of men. Thank you sir for sharing that story. It makes me wish I knew enough sign language to have been able to share that moment with him also. :salute
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: WEZEL on July 12, 2015, 11:01:11 PM
Sorry the movie was just another love story with no story line
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Butcher on July 14, 2015, 01:24:23 AM
Wasn't there a P-51 that Ho's an Me-262 and the 51 pilot gets riddled with bullets?
/think that is when I walked out...I refer to such movies like this as "Movies never to be named again..." same goes for Pearl Harbor. Then again 99% of the audience probably doesn't know we didn't have nuclear POWERED SHIPS at pearl harbor.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Chilli on July 14, 2015, 04:30:51 AM
What is less mmmmm historical? Using authentic equipment but with incorrect markings / mistaken identification, OR computer generated models :airplane: ?
I think we are a bit shaded after playing with our cartoon aircraft (and dem good ones too!).
I get the rub, but when I want authenticity, I pull out the CAF disk and watch hours of real WW2 and other period war planes.
Here is another example: My wife changed careers (after injury) from nurse with an oncology unit, and re-trained to be certified paralegal. Now, I can't watch any Law and Order, OR Scrubs (actually just about any show that has a scene in an operating room, or courtroom), without her pointing out obvious flawed sterile procedures or legal proceedings. :bhead And it truly gets under her skin, while I'm like thinking, "Well, they are acting, and I don't think anyone actually got hurt or had their rights stepped on..... can we get back to the plot?"
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: cpxxx on July 14, 2015, 07:14:25 AM
I also thought the Red Tails was a poor movie, cliché ridden and often ridiculous. I can tolerate errors, hey it's just a movie but I switched off half way through in disgust. I felt it was a disservice to the real pilots. It made them look like a bunch of cowboys. Exactly the opposite of what they were in reality. Benjamin O Davis must be spinning in his grave.
When it comes to aerial sequences I often wince at the inaccuracies but I liked Top Gun when it came out even though I knew almost every aspect of the air combat sequences were ridiculous. Plus the idea of a civilian female 'air combat' expert was silly, at the time. But Kelly McGillis was cute and I could overlook that.
But movies and TV have to mess with authenticity for the sake of entertainment. Like Chili's example. My wife is a Laboratory Manager in a hospital. She loves her hospital dramas and mostly suspends belief but occasionally points out where they get it really wrong. Like getting a test done in five minutes with a full diagnosis of the problem. If only! Plus don't watch a legal drama with her sister the lawyer!
But if there's a good story with the movie you can easily ignore the failings. Red Tails was not one of those movies.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: FLOOB on July 14, 2015, 07:56:25 AM
When I watched it I got the impression that it was a movie for children like star wars or raiders of the lost arc. In that context it isn't bad.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Guppy35 on July 14, 2015, 06:26:43 PM
I must be talking to myself :).
How many of you experts turned off Flying Tigers with John Wayne? Did Claire Chennault turn over in his grave?
It was aimed at a younger not educated on WW2 aviation crowd in the hopes it might get them to pick up a book.
What's amazing to me is all the cartoon airplane experts who claim to be experts :)
Oldest son way back when post Top Gun watching (minus a few scenes 😀). Probably should have walked out of course cause it was so far fetched as telling a story always takes second place to rivet counters....
Oldest son way back when post Top Gun watching (minus a few scenes 😀). Probably should have walked out of course cause it was so far fetched as telling a story always takes second place to rivet counters....
They didn't have to make it so campy just to tell a good story.
Lucas had commented in an interview somewhere that he was going more for the Flying Tigers propaganda type feel than realism.
Quote
Replace that idiotic tail flip with an extended dog fight, and you've got a much cooler scene AND you don't violate physics.
Practically any movie violates physics, and the expectation is the masses can't follow it and get bored. Most moviemakers think people are idiots and treat them as such.
Has an actual technical fighter v fighter dogfight ever been put to film in a popular movie? I can't think of one offhand though I'm sure there are plenty of airplane movies I've missed.
People saw 5 seconds of indy kick flip kill enemy unexpectedly, they understood 'that guy is apparently good pilot'. Takes less time than a minute or so of rolling scissors as the two work back and forth toward advantage culminating in one of them getting shot down.
I honestly think done correctly, it could be an awesome sequence. Tension building as they get closer and closer to a firing solution. But it would need to be done extremely well to allow people who don't understand ACM to understand what's going on. It's a lot easier to use on of the tropes airplane movies have used over the years.
I was WAY more irked at the HO with the 262 where the ground crew said, "We've secretly replaced Klaus's 30mm cannons with 8mm machine guns. Let's see if he notices!"
Wiley.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: zack1234 on July 15, 2015, 02:49:02 PM
Sorry the movie was just another love story with no story line
i like love stories :)
i thought the film was alright :)
Brokeback Mountain won a oscar and it was full of faults, to many to mention, so Pipz said. :)
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: BaDkaRmA158Th on July 15, 2015, 04:53:44 PM
Watched red tails last night. Sooo disappointed in how they portrayed everyone and everything.
No one acted like a officer, none of those pilots acted anything more then your common street kids who somehow knew how to fly planes.
The only part i liked was the p51's all leave the bombers alone and you can hear clearly "rable rable rable rable" as they flew off. I LAUGHED at that, hard.
Otherwise i give it a negative 5. Yes it was that bad.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Zimme83 on July 15, 2015, 05:01:23 PM
Also gave up after less than half of the film. it had the potential to be a great movie but its not, The flight scenes just s**k and the rest of the moive isnt doing anything to help it up.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Guppy35 on July 15, 2015, 05:36:09 PM
No one has answered my question yet. How many of you turned off John Wayne in Flying Tigers? It's essentially the same film. What part of that movie was an actual representation of the real tigers beyond the name?
If you turned that one off for the same reasons as Redtails I can accept your argument. If you didn't, explain why this film is different?
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Zimme83 on July 15, 2015, 05:42:58 PM
Havent seen it.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Chilli on July 15, 2015, 06:27:38 PM
Don't bother to understand Guppy, it is just the current state of know it all we have been in. Seriously, if we would all man up and tell the truth, a lot would admit to have been turned off to the movie simply on subject matter.
All that matters is those wonderful kids of yours, continue to be brought up in a loving home. Let them know that they will always find vocal opposition to whatever they find endearing. That is simply what many, not only us Americans, have fought and even died to protect, "freedom" including freedom of speech. Please sign to your youngest for me....
"Be brave." - Chilli :salute
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Zimme83 on July 15, 2015, 06:38:07 PM
I dont like films like Top Gun and Iron Eagle either for the same reasons, so unrealistic its hard to watch them. Memphis Belle is a better one, it feels a lot more like the real deal.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Guppy35 on July 15, 2015, 09:53:44 PM
I dont like films like Top Gun and Iron Eagle either for the same reasons, so unrealistic its hard to watch them. Memphis Belle is a better one, it feels a lot more like the real deal.
That's interesting that you mention the Belle as they crucified the actual history in that one. I had the chance to talk to some 91st BG Pilots after that film and they hated it for how it portrayed how a B-17 crew acted.
On the flip sign my oldest son loved it and it lead him to build some B-17 models and do some reading on the Mighty Eighth.
So if you are going to use it as your example it's a poor one in terms of its accuracy as the reaction of the guys from the same Bomb Group as the Belle crew hated it, but it did do its job in getting a kid to open a book :)
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Zimme83 on July 16, 2015, 12:55:51 AM
Atleast it doesnt violate basic fysics, the planes behave like planes. The basic story is of course, as most movies, very loosely based on a true story. (They use the name of a real plane but thats it). I dont demand films to be 100% accurate.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Vadjan-Sama on July 16, 2015, 08:27:46 AM
Atleast it doesnt violate basic fysics, the planes behave like planes. The basic story is of course, as most movies, very loosely based on a true story. (They use the name of a real plane but thats it). I dont demand films to be 100% accurate.
Agreed, theres a baseline that you need to follow even if you want to make and action/historical movie, if you make some sci-fi/action/war/non-historical movie well, your limit is the sky, but when you make a movie based on historical event you need to keep that base line in what is that... The point that make me think this movie will suck was first 262's dive on the B17's... the damage made by the "30mm" I was like "wtf... there was a 262 with a 12mm?" and the HO's omg, I was just thinking "we need those 262's in here" Was like a Hurri-I Hoing the pony
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Muzzy on July 16, 2015, 08:44:26 AM
It's somewhat sad that the best ACM sequence in recent memory is the climax from the first "How to Train Your Dragon" movie.
Roped him, shot the wing root, made him compress and face shot him for good measure. Lost vertical stabilizer, ditched. Perk Points awarded:1.55 (It would have been more but Toothless the Night Fury has like a 5 ENY. He's basically a dragonized LA 7.)
At any rate, I'm hoping the upcoming "Masters of the Air" miniseries will be better both in terms of historical and technical accuracy.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: DEECONX on July 16, 2015, 08:53:18 AM
It's somewhat sad that the best ACM sequence in recent memory is the climax from the first "How to Train Your Dragon" movie.
Roped him, shot the wing root, made him compress and face shot him for good measure. Lost vertical stabilizer, ditched. Perk Points awarded:1.55 (It would have been more but Toothless the Night Fury has like a 5 ENY. He's basically a dragonized LA 7.)
At any rate, I'm hoping the upcoming "Masters of the Air" miniseries will be better both in terms of historical and technical accuracy.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Guppy35 on July 16, 2015, 11:28:10 AM
Atleast it doesnt violate basic fysics, the planes behave like planes. The basic story is of course, as most movies, very loosely based on a true story. (They use the name of a real plane but thats it). I dont demand films to be 100% accurate.
So your concern is that the airplane flying isn't accurate enough, but you aren't worried about the history.
So the notion that the movie loosely based on a true story, as Redtails, Flying Tigers and Memphis Belle are, in name only, are worthy only if the flying scenes fit your notion of accurate?
For me, if they get someone to pick up a book or search the web to learn the story afterwards make them worthy.
So we will have to agree to disagree :)
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Spitter on July 17, 2015, 12:49:49 PM
The Tuskegee Airmen (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114745/) was much better. It still had some faults, of course, nothing is perfect. It at least skips the love story, and includes lots of historical data at the end. It's much much better than redtails.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Delirium on July 17, 2015, 12:58:41 PM
My son (4) enjoyed Red Tails and my daughter (12) watched some of it as well. That said, my daughter and son are now flying in Aces High and I'd like to see the movie was one of the catalysts.
That said, if a movie can get a new generation interested in the genre and the history, how can the movie be bad?
(here is my son, getting brainwashed into P38s at a much younger age)
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: FLOOB on July 17, 2015, 01:31:52 PM
Were they all sold out of P-38s are caca jammies?
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Delirium on July 17, 2015, 01:33:51 PM
One more thing I wanted to add;
HBO is planning on releasing a mini-series related to the air war over France and Germany in WWII. I probably won't let me my children watch it until they get a little older because they still need to be kids. Red Tails allowed them some exposure without the truly adult themes that would of limited the potential viewers.
Title: Re: Red Tails
Post by: Muzzy on July 17, 2015, 02:41:13 PM
HBO is planning on releasing a mini-series related to the air war over France and Germany in WWII. I probably won't let me my children watch it until they get a little older because they still need to be kids. Red Tails allowed them some exposure without the truly adult themes that would of limited the potential viewers.
Yes, that's "Masters of the Air", being produced by Hanks and Speilberg as the third part of their WWII miniseries trilogy. (After "Band of Brothers" and "The Pacific".