General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: RODBUSTR on July 27, 2015, 06:03:48 PM
Title: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: RODBUSTR on July 27, 2015, 06:03:48 PM
I'M SURE MOST HAVE PURSUED HEAVIES ONLY TO BE OUT PACED OR AT THE LEAST UNABLE TO CLOSE ON THEM DO TO THEIR EXCESSIVE DIVE SPEEDS. IT WOULD BE NICE TO SEE THEM LIMITED TO A MORE APPROPRIATE VELOCITY. USAAF HANDBOOK STATES MAXIMUM DIVE SPEED FOR A B17 IS 304 MPH.....PROBABLY A REAL FORT COULD PUSH 350MPH, BUT THERE WERE 2 PILOTS TO MANHANDLE THE BIG BIRD OUT OF IT'S PLUNGE....A REAL FORTS PILOTS WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO PUT THEIR FEET ON THE DASH AND PULL WITH ALL THEY HAD TO PULL OUT OF A HIGH SPEED DIVE. THAT IS ALL....
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: MrKrabs on July 27, 2015, 06:24:52 PM
I'M SURE MOST HAVE PURSUED HEAVIES ONLY TO BE OUT PACED OR AT THE LEAST UNABLE TO CLOSE ON THEM DO TO THEIR EXCESSIVE DIVE SPEEDS. IT WOULD BE NICE TO SEE THEM LIMITED TO A MORE APPROPRIATE VELOCITY. USAAF HANDBOOK STATES MAXIMUM DIVE SPEED FOR A B17 IS 304 MPH.....PROBABLY A REAL FORT COULD PUSH 350MPH, BUT THERE WERE 2 PILOTS TO MANHANDLE THE BIG BIRD OUT OF IT'S PLUNGE....A REAL FORTS PILOTS WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO PUT THEIR FEET ON THE DASH AND PULL WITH ALL THEY HAD TO PULL OUT OF A HIGH SPEED DIVE. THAT IS ALL....
Who says your imaginary pilots didn't? Who says all their gunners didn't shimmy up to the cockpit and help manhandle the controls?
And like you said a "REAL FORT" may be able push 350mph. USAAF states it as a "MAX" for "safest" top speed not absolute max of the airframe.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on July 27, 2015, 06:48:49 PM
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: save on July 28, 2015, 01:40:51 PM
I recall Snailman's trying to catch a diving set of buffs at 570mph shooting in formation, while his Me163 was compressed when he tried to follow them :neener:
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Zimme83 on July 28, 2015, 03:15:55 PM
You need to do a check up on your memory, it was 503mph. :old:
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Beefcake on July 28, 2015, 03:41:27 PM
I recall Snailman's trying to catch a diving set of buffs at 570mph shooting in formation, while his Me163 was compressed when he tried to follow them :neener:
I want to know what set of buffs he was chasing at 500MPH.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: hitech on July 28, 2015, 03:43:06 PM
I want to know what set of buffs he was chasing at 500MPH.
People tend to confuse IAS ant TAS a lot.
HiTech
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: bozon on July 29, 2015, 12:36:18 AM
Buffs could not dive safely at such speeds and angles - the violent vibrations would surely make the navigator spill his hot coffee all over himself. Also, the fuzzy dice pair hanging in the cockpit in front of the pilots would be flailing around and likely kill the pilots. No dice.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: SirNuke on August 01, 2015, 04:56:28 AM
the most annoying thing is that during the 400mph dive the buff pilot is able to shift X the angle and use the turrets with the same sniping accuracy
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: EagleDNY on August 01, 2015, 01:09:19 PM
the most annoying thing is that during the 400mph dive the buff pilot is able to shift X the angle and use the turrets with the same sniping accuracy
Well considering you are modeling an aircraft with multiple pilots and gunners, why shouldn't they be able to lock into a dive angle and man the guns?
I admit it - I'm one of the people that this thread is aimed at. After a bomb run I will lock the plane into a shallow dive and egress as fast as I can. I can get B-17 up over 300 and keep it there without trading too much altitude per min and it keeps the majority of the fighters behind you playing catch up.
400 though? Maybe in a B-29 way up high you might get a big bomber up over 400 doing that, but most big bombers will shred long before 400. If you want 400 in a bomber you better think Ar-234 or the Mossie bomber.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Beefcake on August 01, 2015, 01:28:51 PM
400 though? Maybe in a B-29 way up high you might get a big bomber up over 400 doing that, but most big bombers will shred long before 400. If you want 400 in a bomber you better think Ar-234 or the Mossie bomber.
I also want to know what bombers are diving away at 400-500+mph. Most of the bombers in AH will shed at the very least their control surfaces at high speed, let alone their wings. Awhile back an old squaddie of mine put his B29 in a power dive when it first came out. I warned him to back it off and slow down but he said "I've got it", at around 380 I think the ailerons came off followed quickly by the elevators and then the wings. Our heavy bombers are pushing their limits when you go past 300+, IIRC the B17 is going to start falling apart at around 350.
In my opinion pilots today are to impatient and rather than waiting until a tactical advantage comes up they push ahead and get caught in the rearward defensive fire. Remember in most cases the bomber is going to run out of altitude at some point, so just get setup and wait until he makes his mistake or slows down......or crashes into the ground.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Zimme83 on August 01, 2015, 04:30:41 PM
Asked Google and B-17 Vne seems to be 270mph IAS, at 30.000 ft that is 440mph TAS so 400-450 is very doable at altitude.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: bozon on August 02, 2015, 03:18:08 AM
Asked Google and B-17 Vne seems to be 270mph IAS, at 30.000 ft that is 440mph TAS so 400-450 is very doable at altitude.
Ask Google if 3 B17s can keep a close formation at TAS 450, and what happens to the waste gunners that are trying to stand in front of an open window and shoot into a 450 mph wind.
German JU88s used to bomb Britain from around 20,000 feet and then escape in a shallow dive (at night). While it increased their chances of escape, if a night Fighter found them, it could close on them quite easily They were not diving on the edge of compressibility.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Zimme83 on August 02, 2015, 04:50:38 AM
Ask Google if 3 B17s can keep a close formation at TAS 450, and what happens to the waste gunners that are trying to stand in front of an open window and shoot into a 450 mph wind.
German JU88s used to bomb Britain from around 20,000 feet and then escape in a shallow dive (at night). While it increased their chances of escape, if a night Fighter found them, it could close on them quite easily They were not diving on the edge of compressibility.
Not so relevant, we have drones and convergenced guns to compensate for the fact that we only have 1 or 2 gunners. In fact AH gunners are rather ineffective, only close to the 500 yard convergence is it effective to fire all guns, other than that its just a waste of ammo.
Rather than attack a diving buff from the rear, just follow him, he will have to level out and then he is an easier kill than before.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: bozon on August 02, 2015, 06:53:51 AM
Not so relevant, we have drones and convergenced guns to compensate for the fact that we only have 1 or 2 gunners. In fact AH gunners are rather ineffective, only close to the 500 yard convergence is it effective to fire all guns, other than that its just a waste of ammo.
Rather than attack a diving buff from the rear, just follow him, he will have to level out and then he is an easier kill than before.
No.
AH gunners are an order of magnitude more effective than their real life counterparts. The 500 convergence is relevant only between the drones, not for gun position on the same plane. A scattered gun pattern lowers the lethality but increase hit probability - buffs rarely kill me, but they wound the pilot and hit fuel or oil from crazy angles and relative speeds very often.
You have never followed your own advice have you? At 420 mph the buff covers 7 miles per minute. If he is depending at 4000-5000 feet/min and starts from about 15000 alt, he will fly an entire sector before it reaches the deck. During these 3-4 minutes you cannot overtake it - you have to keep at least 1.5d out in order to keep out of the gunners reach (sniping at you through a 420 mph cross wind from a vibrating plane without ill effects). Once you slowly start to overtake it, the buff pilot will make a small course correction and bring you to his rear section again, or converge into you and bring you into turrets range. Assuming you have a 50 mph advantage in order to overtake it, it will put most fighters in the uncomfortable zone in terms of compressibility and maneuvering for a shot, while the gunners still shoot as if the bomber was parked on the ground.
You will never kill all 3 buffs which means that the dweeb gets to land his sortie - lets face it, no one cares how many drones made it back - they are just "3 strikes" for the player.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Zimme83 on August 02, 2015, 07:41:35 AM
Its the same for your mossie, their bullets arent affected by wind at 400mph eihter, making your deflection shots a lot easier. We have had this debate eariler. Just live with it, we can never have a gameplay that replicates real life to 100%. U want buffs to be free kills but im sorry to tell u they are not. With alot of practice a bomber pilot can be very accurate far beyond whats realistic. But its the same for fighter pilots.
A large bomber formation in AH is a lot easier to kill than IRL, 30 sets of B-17 vs 30 fighters and the buffs are slaughtered in 5 mins. There is no need for any changes in gun lethality.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: FLOOB on August 02, 2015, 10:57:06 AM
What do you mean their bullets aren't affected by wind?
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: bozon on August 03, 2015, 03:18:56 AM
Zimmer, Forward fixed guns are not affected by a crosswind unless you are skidding the plane very badly.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Zimme83 on August 03, 2015, 05:31:32 AM
They are affected by wind just like any other bullet. Its far less than for the waist gunner but it is on the other hand not hard for the waist gunner to compensate for it. Waist guns are almost never manned anyway so it doesnt matter.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: bozon on August 03, 2015, 07:56:12 AM
They are affected by wind just like any other bullet. Its far less than for the waist gunner but it is on the other hand not hard for the waist gunner to compensate for it. Waist guns are almost never manned anyway so it doesnt matter.
Waist gunners are "manned" and slaved to whatever position the player occupy. Top and ball turrets also shoot across the wind, but at least those gunners do not get a 400 mph wind into their faces. Have you any idea what a 400 mph wind means? This is 3 to 4 times stronger that a hurricane. Just the turbulence at the waist windows will fling the gunners and his gimbal held gun around.
I know of a two seater A4 Skyhawk that lost its canopy in-flight. The poor Rio was squeezed against the back of his seat and could not even move his hands in order to lower his seat to be somewhat better protected from the wind, until the pilot slowed down for the final on emergency landing. This is A4, it was not flying more than 400 mph when it happened.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: hitech on August 03, 2015, 09:46:43 AM
Its the same for your mossie, their bullets arent affected by wind at 400mph eihter
ALL bullets are effected by wind.
HiTech
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Zimme83 on August 03, 2015, 09:49:14 AM
Yes all guns are slaved so crosswind would not change anything, they convergence at 500 anyway. The waist gunners are doing their job in a 250mph wind, thats still stronger than a hurricane.. To bad they arent actually standing in the wind, u dont have a 250-400 mph wind inside the plane, thar would tear the plane apart instantly.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: save on August 05, 2015, 06:09:48 PM
If buffs dive at 450-500mph mph in formation from 25k and you slowly close in, you are dead/have lost vital parts before you reach 1k of the buffs since you close in so slowly.
if you get into effective gun ranges, a slow turn and switching gunners warps the drone planes in the formation, effectively doing it to impossible to hit them for a while, though the buff gunners still can rake the living crap out of you.
A number of planes are hampered in manoeuvrability, or locked up in compression trying to follow a B17-set at max speed dive.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Beefcake on August 05, 2015, 06:30:14 PM
If buffs dive at 450-500mph mph in formation from 25k and you slowly close in, you are dead/have lost vital parts before you reach 1k of the buffs since you close in so slowly.
if you get into effective gun ranges, a slow turn and switching gunners warps the drone planes in the formation, effectively doing it to impossible to hit them for a while, though the buff gunners still can rake the living crap out of you.
A number of planes are hampered in manoeuvrability, or locked up in compression trying to follow a B17-set at max speed dive.
Then don't close in if a bomber is diving and causing you problems. Setup 2-3k away and wait until you are in a more advantageous position. This is how I get most of my kills in a bomber, I play on the lack of patience in fighter pilots. Pilots don't want to wait and they push the attack and fall right where I want them, on my dead six being ripped apart. Some people don't realize that by waiting a minute or two they can change the flow of a fight.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Zimme83 on August 06, 2015, 06:23:24 AM
The warping issue must be fixed imo, its a bit annoying to attack a drone that suddenly warps 2 miles away...
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: save on August 06, 2015, 06:26:41 AM
If the bomber pilot have any clue and are attacking a front line field flying homewards, he will not only get to his field that is already packed with willing Wirby's and Acks - still at 400mph+, wirby with computer rangefinders and acks dont have problems shooting a small fighter at any speed. He will also be low enough to enjoy friendly fighter cover.
I would not mind it if he lost his drones. If you ever flew in formation IRL, you know that 100% throttle is not working for the lead plane.
Diving at compression speeds in 4-engined buffs, and also switching position during the compression dive, is so gamey it makes me sick. To add to the insult they can still shoot like they where out at normal 180mph formation flight, but enjoy longer shooting times.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: Zimme83 on August 06, 2015, 07:21:29 AM
I do just the opposite, let the fighter close in and when he is like 1.5 behind cut throttles to bring him in way closer than he wanted. Fighter intecepts are so rare that i often slow down and/or dive to let them catch up in order to get some trigger time.
Title: Re: REALISTIC DIVE SPEEDS FOR HEAVY BOMBERS
Post by: save on August 06, 2015, 12:58:38 PM
Against a good B17 gunner you are already dead at 1k coming in from 5-7 o'clock, even in an armoured brick like the A8.