Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: mikev on August 08, 2015, 10:33:16 PM
Title: its not working
Post by: mikev on August 08, 2015, 10:33:16 PM
my latest video tells of the frustration i am having. there are many more examples. enjoy.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_xi8Vqbo14
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: The Fugitive on August 08, 2015, 11:01:11 PM
With the speed you were carrying you should have gone nose high and done a hi yoyo. If he was coming around hard on you put more HI in the yoyo to make him burn more E coming up after you. Once you have the perch over him you can turn into him and chase him down.
You turned nose low at speed and so couldn't match his turn so he got a round enough to get his shot and he didn't miss.
Ride with a few guys as they are getting into fights. See what they see from their planes as they fight.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: mikev on August 09, 2015, 02:45:14 AM
With the speed you were carrying you should have gone nose high and done a hi yoyo. If he was coming around hard on you put more HI in the yoyo to make him burn more E coming up after you. Once you have the perch over him you can turn into him and chase him down.
You turned nose low at speed and so couldn't match his turn so he got a round enough to get his shot and he didn't miss.
Ride with a few guys as they are getting into fights. See what they see from their planes as they fight.
thats just it i have watched videos from everybody from skyyr to vudu15 and everything in between. the real issue here is me recognizing whats happening and reacting . sometimes i do the right thing at first then blow it and dont know why.sometimes i start off doing the wrong thing and recover and blow it anyways . sometimes i do everything right and get shot down anyways . the point is no matter what i do they still keep shooting me down. when i am in the TA i can fly smooth and float around but in the MA when a plane comes it all escapes me and i turn into plane pieces falling from the sky. everything becomes unnatural and im stuck trying to think of what to do by then i got bullets and cannon going threw my canopy. this is not a you should do this or you should do that , its knowing what to do before it gets that far. i have redone the video a bit , was pretty frustrated when i did the first 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hZWyMI18d0
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: mikev on August 09, 2015, 03:10:03 AM
after thinking about it there is 1 idea i would like to try. i will need volunteers to swap flying with me and i with you. we can pick any plane you are good at and have a vox. my game time weekdays between 930 10 pm to 2 am weekdays any time on weekends. it will be a talk ya threw it type instructional. you can pm me if your interested in helping . i thank you if you do.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: The Fugitive on August 09, 2015, 09:24:39 AM
I didn't mean to watch more films, I meant for you to do a .join command and ride along with someone else AS THEY FIGHT. This way you can see how they make real time decisions as they fight. Some may even be able to give you details on VOX as they do it. Personally I can get a LOT out of film, real films, not these youtube things. There is a lot of data speed is displayed, trails can give you angles, turn radius and such. When watching the film you can hold down the "look up" key and see where your lift vector is pointing, and I KNOW you have heard that term flying with Morph.
Agent360 posted some films a long time ago about fighting in the 109 and he narrated them as he filmed them. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261486.msg4634727.html#msg4634727 the link still works.
As for fighting, there is a lot to think about. View, act, react, adjust and so on and each of these things there are a bunch of decisions to be made. While Im no super star I like to boil it down to a couple things.
1. If I have good speed I try to go UP and get above the enemy. All turns are nose up. Depending on the situation is HOW you maneuver UP.
2. If I don't have the speed, stay level and let them come to me. Level I gain speed/maintain speed, making nose low turns as they make a guns pass. What they do after dictates what I do. If they still zoom well I rinse and repeat. Eventually they either get frustrated and blow all their E turning with me or they just run out of E trying for their shots.
Those are my basics. They get me deeper into a fight and with SA last longer. Stop worrying about dieing! Until you learn more on the "HOWs" in fighting your going to die a LOT!! we all did it, its part of the learning process and dues that you pay. Everyone is fodder for the rest until they DO learn to fight.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: Puma44 on August 09, 2015, 10:56:51 AM
after thinking about it there is 1 idea i would like to try. i will need volunteers to swap flying with me and i with you. we can pick any plane you are good at and have a vox. my game time weekdays between 930 10 pm to 2 am weekdays any time on weekends. it will be a talk ya threw it type instructional. you can pm me if your interested in helping . i thank you if you do.
Has anyone gone over the basics of BFM in the TA with you? It appears that you are trying to learn basics in the midst of an MA fray. Fugitive has offered some good pointers about some basic moves. It's a great idea to do ride alongs but, knowing the basics will make it a more comprehensive learning experience. If you can get the basics down in a controlled environment, you'll have a better skill set to build on in the MA. Morf also has an excellent grasp of the skills you are seeking to learn and is a great purveyor of the force. If someone is trying to "teach" you and doesn't start out with the basics, they are doing you a disservice. :salute
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: Muzzy on August 09, 2015, 11:19:04 AM
The next time we're on fly with me. PM me in the arena.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: FLS on August 09, 2015, 12:09:18 PM
What are you learning from your videos and what are you doing differently next time?
what i am learning is i am making mistakes , as to what am i going to do next try something different but what i dont know is what that is. i climb up i get shot down i turn early enough on a merge but i lose my advantage and get shot down . i have the alt advantage everything in my favor , i get shot down. its not getting shot down that has me frustrated its not knowing what to do before i get shot down. i know all the BFM and ACM but what i dont know is how to use them. sure i can do a rolling scissors when someone is on my 6 and even force an over shoot on occasion but what good is that if i still get shot down because i do not know what to do next. any time i have to stop and think is time i am losing to win the fight which is putting me at a disadvantage . we talk of learning curves in this game , well this is my brick wall at the moment.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: morfiend on August 09, 2015, 01:38:52 PM
Mike, drop by the TA one evening next week and I'll see if I cant help you some more. Both Fugi and Puma make good points,I'd add it isnt easy for us old farts,we dont have the reflexes or eyesight,there is a reason you dont see old fighter pilots still fighting.
However with practice and lots of it you can get to the point were you can hold your own! My suggestion would be to have fun and not worry about getting shot down but I know you only want to improve and that can frustrate the heck outta ya!
hope to see you soon! and remember Rome wasnt built in a day!!!
:salute
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: FLS on August 09, 2015, 01:54:30 PM
what i am learning is i am making mistakes , as to what am i going to do next try something different but what i dont know is what that is. i climb up i get shot down i turn early enough on a merge but i lose my advantage and get shot down . i have the alt advantage everything in my favor , i get shot down. its not getting shot down that has me frustrated its not knowing what to do before i get shot down. i know all the BFM and ACM but what i dont know is how to use them. sure i can do a rolling scissors when someone is on my 6 and even force an over shoot on occasion but what good is that if i still get shot down because i do not know what to do next. any time i have to stop and think is time i am losing to win the fight which is putting me at a disadvantage . we talk of learning curves in this game , well this is my brick wall at the moment.
Step one would be to identify the mistake. That's often sufficient to suggest the solution. The best use of film is to analyze the fight and learn from it. Making videos is more of a bonus.
From your comment on ACM and BFM I'm not certain you're clear on some basics. I understand you know the basic maneuvers like a barrel roll but combat maneuvering in general requires an appreciation for how energy and performance dictate choices and timing. Try working on 1v1 fights to learn how to merge and also close formation aerobatic flying to work on precise aircraft control.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: Skyyr on August 09, 2015, 02:06:13 PM
PM sent.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: mikev on August 09, 2015, 02:37:32 PM
Mike, drop by the TA one evening next week and I'll see if I cant help you some more. Both Fugi and Puma make good points,I'd add it isnt easy for us old farts,we dont have the reflexes or eyesight,there is a reason you dont see old fighter pilots still fighting.
However with practice and lots of it you can get to the point were you can hold your own! My suggestion would be to have fun and not worry about getting shot down but I know you only want to improve and that can frustrate the heck outta ya!
hope to see you soon! and remember Rome wasnt built in a day!!!
:salute
thanks morfiend you will again see me soon. oh and by the way heheheh we are only as old as we think. and yes i still have fun , i said this before, i will not quit trying , i know there is a fighter pilot in me somewhere we just got to find it.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: morfiend on August 09, 2015, 05:28:49 PM
I know there is too Mike! I've seen improvement in your flying,you're much smoother than before and your plane control has improved.
You need to understand the 2 types of energy and how to convert from 1 to the other.Kinetic and potential,potential is alt and kinetic is your speed,you can trade 1 for the other and this I think is the next step you need to understand.
When we meet up I will try to explain this in more detail.
:salute
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: mikev on August 09, 2015, 06:51:16 PM
I know there is too Mike! I've seen improvement in your flying,you're much smoother than before and your plane control has improved.
You need to understand the 2 types of energy and how to convert from 1 to the other.Kinetic and potential,potential is alt and kinetic is your speed,you can trade 1 for the other and this I think is the next step you need to understand.
When we meet up I will try to explain this in more detail.
:salute
this video i attribute to your training Morfiend .in the past i would of been a sitting duck .the video starts with his 4th pass on me , now if i could shoot straight his 5 th pass would of been his last lol.
any time i have to stop and think is time i am losing to win the fight which is putting me at a disadvantage .
Yup. True of all new skills, I suspect. My personal example was re-learning how to drive manual transmission:
"OK. Let up on clutch."
*engine stalls*
*Right. Push down on the gas pedal a little more. Now let up on the clutch."
*engine stalls*
*Errrrrr. OK. Push down on the gas pedal a little more. Now let up on the clutch. Add some more gas when you do!"
*car moves*
Soon the things you need to do, you'll start to do without thinking so much. The brick wall will move a little further away.
It never disappears, though. Remember that.
- oldman
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: Puma44 on August 09, 2015, 09:47:30 PM
Mikev, a couple observations and considerations from viewing your video.
The pony obviously had the altitude and speed advantage on you. Don't lose sight of him and what he's doing. Continue to maneuver your plane of motion (i.e. lift vector) to create angles that he is forced to deal with in order to saddle up on you. Regain your energy as best you can without rolling wings level. Straight and level pretty much erases any angle problems he may have had and allows him to extend out and build his energy state. When you see him solving angles and about to saddle up, rotate your lift vector and pull out of plane with him to complicate his guns tracking solution. He will react to it and try to match lift vector/plane of motion with you for another shot or pull off because you've made it too hard to do.
When you are forced down low and have a guy like this diving hard and fast, get down in the dirt as low as you are comfortable and start making angles. This adds to his problem of managing a potential overshoot and the angles you are presenting. The ground always wins. And you've removed half of his available airspace.
All of this is contingent on knowing the BFM, lift vector, and energy management fundamentals.
Stay unpredictable and don't make anything easy for your opponent. :salute
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: FLS on August 09, 2015, 09:56:57 PM
Good points Puma.
Mikev if you're unsure of "rotate your lift vector and pull out of plane" just roll to point a wingtip at the bandit and pull the stick back.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: Skyyr on August 09, 2015, 10:25:23 PM
Some defensive Spit-16 flying for you, Magic.
Also, in reply to your original post:
Initial Setup
The first thing you should have done was identify the aircraft as soon as the tag became visible (not too hard - the tag says YAK) and quickly break down the type's general advantages and disadvantages relative to you. Most all Yaks are going to be faster than you, you're going to turn a lot better than all of the Yaks, your aircraft (Spit 16) can maintain its E better than any of them. Additionally, once the fight gets slow, your climb performance will greatly outperform theirs due to the Yak's torque (which is opposite yours). This quick assessment should readily point out that you're the angles fighter, and the Yak is the energy fighter.
So, in the first 1-2 seconds, you should know that your endgame is going to be an angles fight, and will likely be a rolling scissors if played correctly.
Now, we look for the next aspect of the fight - relative energy levels. The easiest way to do this is to note how quickly the tag distance numbers change - closure rate. The Yak looks to be about 320-350mph. Closure rate estimations and the airspeed that comes from them are never 100% accurate, but the goal is to quickly find the range you suspect them to be in and act accordingly. Glancing at your airspeed indicator, you're doing about 270mph true, so the Yak has 50-80mph of airspeed on you.
What does this mean? This means several things, but most notably that not only is he an energy fighter, but he also has a distinct energy advantage. We always want to assume that our opponent will fly perfectly, so we'll plan for him going vertical (what every energy fighter should do given an energy advantage and proper separation), pulling hard G's, and trading that airspeed for position over and behind you.
Once we have our aircraft advantages/disadvantages and energy levels (which should occur no less than 3-5 seconds after sighting your opponent), we need to develop tactics.
The Yak is the energy fighter, so you should plan for an aggressive vertical fight from the Yak. You are the angles fighter here, and anything the Yak does for angles, you can do better; note that we also don't want to commit to the vertical while the Yak has an airspeed advantage, as the vertical bleeds airspeed quickly. Once in the vertical, it becomes a game of "chicken" to see who will run out of E first, and you don't want to enter it at an energy disadvantage. Therefore, you should use the vertical as much as possible without committing to it - we do this with oblique turns (turns that are half vertical, half horizontal).
So, recap - we will plan for the Yak using aggressive vertical maneuvering with an airspeed advantage, and we will use oblique turns to both minimize committing to the vertical, while encouraging the Yak to turn.
You should have these tactics chosen within 1-2 seconds.
Finally, right before you merge, you should see the aircraft's specific model (Yak-3). This is commit point for what tactics we specifically will use. The Yak-3 is the turner of the Yak family, so be prepared for a more angular energy fight, although you will still remain the angles fighter and the Yak will be the energy fighter. Functionally/practically, this means this specific Yak pilot will likely pursue angles more aggressively, which means you'll likely need more lead turning and that your opponent will likely be easier to suck into committing to a turnfight.
AAR
So, what actually happened? Well, the Yak did just as I described. Notice how he started nosing down before the merge. He already had a sizeable airspeed advantage, therefore the only possible use for more airspeed would be to burn it aggressively, i.e. the vertical. You can see 2k out that he's diving for position, which confirms our initial assessment.
So what went wrong? Well, notice that the Yak starts widening his turn on the merge (a lag turn of sorts). He's widening it so it allows him to offset his own slight turn back into you, making it effectively tighter. You should have kept your nose pointed at him right up until the merge, as doing so would actually result in him losing angles himself as he set up a lag turn; instead, you allowed him to widen his approach for a further advantage. Had you kept on him and had a zero aspect merge, his energy would have been more of a liability. Before the merge, you should have nosed down to pick up airspeed to offset his airspeed advantage, and then done an oblique turn to the right across his flightpath.
Now, we can't say anything past this point, as it didn't happen. However, should you have actually done the above, he would have likely been above you, perpendicular to your flight path with a near 90* deflection shot. At that point, you could have reduced throttle and sliced through the horizon and forced an overshoot. Again, this is speculation, but it's what I would have done.
Notes
What FLS said is good advice - if you're going to spend to the time to watch you or someone else's fights, then you need to have a learning objective/DLO from watching them. You should always identify what won or lost every fight. Without that, watching any film is going to be a waste of time.
Going one step further, here's an example of what I was referencing about quickly ID'ing your opponents and determining how to fight them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heqsXFjWg_4
In that fight, notice that I quickly noted my airspeed and assessed the targets in their order of threat: TYPH (Tempest), P-51 (D), 190 (D-9). The Typhie was likely to be a Tempest, of which my plane has absolutely no primary advantages over, aside from forcing a head-on shot. Therefore, I need to eliminate it quickly at the merge, especially given that I'm outnumbered 3 to 1. The P-51 is likely a D model (as 90% are), and his edge in maneuverability in a 3v1 situation will quickly put me on the defensive if not taken care of, so he is threat #2. The 190 is likely either a D model (about on par with my aircraft) or an earlier 190 series, so at best it's equal with my aircraft. Same aircraft ACM is relatively straightforward, so the 190 represents no inherent threat provided I don't allow him a guns solution.
So, within 3 seconds, I know my attack order will be Tempest > P-51 > 190, with room for adjustment if the situation dictates.
For tactics, I'm slow, but they're nearly co-alt, so diving away would only limit my options further. Therefore, I decide to try to quickly hit the Tempest with a deflection shot on the merge while simultaneously turning to keep the 190 at bay while the P-51 comes in.
It's all about quickly summarizing your opponents' abilities, target prioritization, and generating tactics based on those parameters.
-=S=-
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: mikev on August 10, 2015, 01:27:34 AM
well gentlemen there are a lot of terms being mention that i have no understanding what they mean. i have to presume lift vector is the amount of lift you get at different speeds from the wings and elevator . ya got to remember im no pilot lol at least not yet. i will however google the term. ok i googled the term i see lift vector is the lift you have naturally from the plane design . when level it is straight up , the plane climbs when sideway it is to the side so the plane will naturally go to the side the canopy is on. if i am not correct i tried to understand . this is turning into a mathematic equation involving the amount of lift minus drag, plus energy equals the desired effect. oops lets not forget gravity subtract that as well . not sure how this works yet but i think i get the idea. by the way i flew with muzzy today and i will let him give his assessment of my performance . it was kinda nice to not feel all alone out there . i also did some DA work with carver. hoping tomorrow i can get to the TA with Morfiend and we can start putting together a fighter pilot. :salute
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: Puma44 on August 10, 2015, 09:11:19 AM
Mikev, that's the problem when you are new at this, a lot of new terminology, some realistic and some made up by individuals. Definitely a recipe for confusion.
This is a link used by the Navy https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/ebrief/documents/02_Training_Air_Wing_Two/01_IUT/01_ACM/SUPPLEMENTS/SUPPLEMENTAL%20DOCUMENTS/NEW%20ACM%20FTI.doc
And there's this timely classic by Shaw. http://scaredscriptless.com/images/jason/Star-Citizen/ACM/Fighter%20Combat%20-%20Tactics%20and%20Maneuvering.pdf
Don't let it overwhelm you. Find the references for BFM and study up on those. Stick with the basics and save the more advanced stuff for later. A lot of the good info being presented by the guys is more advanced in nature. Until you have the basics, along with the proper terminology down, the other stuff may be more confusing than helpful.
There are a lot of references available. Find the one that makes it easy to understand and go with it.
:salute
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: mikev on August 10, 2015, 01:42:08 PM
yup i have the classic Robert Shaw reading . Skyyr put me on to this and i practiced all the BFM and ACM in the offline arena. 1 of the things i learned yesterday while flying with muzzy was after or when you get the chance regain alt whenever you can. this was probably 1 of the main reasons i was such an easy target before. i would go into the battle and never take the "timeout" to regain my energy bank. in the pony fight i did not need to see what he was doing really this was his 4 pass at me when the video started and i did not feel comfortable flying that low taking to much time watching where he was going . i guess i kinda felt his presence and when he reached 800 i knew it was time to break . what i was trying to do was time his over shoot , when the bullets stopped i wanted to turn back at him in that instance, i had him i just was a terrible shot at that moment. lol. what i did not know till it was to late was i still had flaps deployed and made easy pickings on his final pass . if i had to do it over again i think i would of rolled up over the top and tried to get a shot that way .
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: FLS on August 10, 2015, 03:33:01 PM
You can practice simple maneuvers offline and it's good to do so but you need an opponent to learn maneuvering. Reading and timing the merge requires practice which is best acquired in the TA where you get the most merges out of the time spent practicing.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: JVboob on August 11, 2015, 05:27:28 AM
Muzzy is a great teacher!! Professor like in a way :cool:
Skyyr is a great stick I havent had the opportunity to fly with him much but ive gotten my few licks in the DA from him.
FBCrabby can learn you alot as well plus he'll crack ya up.
The DA can teach you a TON but its a different style of fight. For example Im a decent stick in the MA fly smart and pick your fights choose when and where you engage. In the DA you dont have the choice its 90% of the time E-management which I suck at lol Learning in the DA helps you in the MA but it doesnt really work the other way a round IMO. If you find your self as a nit between now and halloween look for 49Boob Ill wing with ya and teach ya what I can. I can fly great as a wingman or an element lead and I can teach how to work well as pairs and some tactics for wing pairs. <S> GL with your adventures in the AH skies!
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on August 11, 2015, 12:22:17 PM
this video i attribute to your training Morfiend .in the past i would of been a sitting duck .the video starts with his 4th pass on me , now if i could shoot straight his 5 th pass would of been his last lol.
I'm not of morfiend's skill level. However, I've been around enough that I'll chuck in my 2 cents... You were definitely at a total disadvantage from jump. The pony had an embarrassment of both types of E on you. The only thing you had in your corner was the ride; the SpitXVI is a very capable platform in a turnfight and has good speed and very good vertical performance as well. Regardless, you forced SEArrow to overshoot several times and even give you a tail shot. The only error I saw was trying to force climb out of the Spit - right up to the point of stall. Be careful in allowing another pilot to drag you upwards. Stalling during a follow is often fatal if the leader is watching.
Regarding your evasive, I'm usually tempted to use a rolling break. I think it saves me E compared to a turning break. I usually fly a g-14. Roll rate is not great on that a/c, but a rolling break will often work, given sufficient rudder. In a disadvantaged situation, I try to build my own E and drain the opponent's. A turn is a sure way to bleed kinetic - though rudder saps it as well. Usually, I'll feign a right flat turn fairly gently, then kick right rudder left roll. A Spit XVI will work this something like magically - though it may not be the best evasive. I just find that flat turns often get me killed and keep me slow.
Otherwise, it's a typical Runstang show: high speed passes until you get the lucky spray-shot from the 6x50's . BTW, co-alt and speed, you'd've probably owned him. However, SEArrow is a smart pilot who's caused me a few instances of butt-hurt in past too. When he's flying a Pony, he won't give a Spit XVI a turnfight.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: mikev on August 11, 2015, 01:50:59 PM
Muzzy is a great teacher!! Professor like in a way :cool:
Skyyr is a great stick I havent had the opportunity to fly with him much but ive gotten my few licks in the DA from him.
FBCrabby can learn you alot as well plus he'll crack ya up.
The DA can teach you a TON but its a different style of fight. For example Im a decent stick in the MA fly smart and pick your fights choose when and where you engage. In the DA you dont have the choice its 90% of the time E-management which I suck at lol Learning in the DA helps you in the MA but it doesnt really work the other way a round IMO. If you find your self as a nit between now and halloween look for 49Boob Ill wing with ya and teach ya what I can. I can fly great as a wingman or an element lead and I can teach how to work well as pairs and some tactics for wing pairs. <S> GL with your adventures in the AH skies!
lol boob i have had lessons from all 3. crabby gave me the floating defense .where he floats his plane around like a piece of crab meat ready to eat and then watches you crash into the sea as you stall , learned how float after that encounter . Skyyr ha there is not much i can add, he is 1 of the top 10 pilots in the game , not counting trainers. out of all the ch 200 chest beaters in this game none back it up in the DA like he does . would be interesting sometime if all the top guns and the chest beaters would duel it out against each other 1v1 first to 10 kills series. each pilot would fight every other pilot with a win or loss gaining 1 point for the series win or 1 loss for a series loss . total kills would be the tiebreaker. unlike the event KOTH this would be 1v1 ,winner take it all !! no rules its kill or be killed . we could call it The Gladiator Series .
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: Muzzy on August 11, 2015, 01:59:19 PM
lol boob i have had lessons from all 3. crabby gave me the floating defense .where he floats his plane around like a piece of crab meat ready to eat and then watches you crash into the sea as you stall , learned how float after that encounter . Skyyr ha there is not much i can add, he is 1 of the top 10 pilots in the game , not counting trainers. out of all the ch 200 chest beaters in this game none back it up in the DA like he does . would be interesting sometime if all the top guns and the chest beaters would duel it out against each other 1v1 first to 10 kills series. each pilot would fight every other pilot with a win or loss gaining 1 point for the series win or 1 loss for a series loss . total kills would be the tiebreaker. unlike the event KOTH this would be 1v1 ,winner take it all !! no rules its kill or be killed . we could call it The Gladiator Series .
There used to be a dueling ladder but it kind of died. Nobody got around to really organizing it and get it rolling. I would, but I don't really have the time.
Title: Re: its not working
Post by: JVboob on August 14, 2015, 04:01:23 AM
I would love to take part in that but my hours dont help me at all. I have noticed as of late my gunnery has skyrocketed. I did a 6 month pull of no tracers and when I turned them back on I feel like a sniper espically in the F4F