Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Open Beta Test => Topic started by: Chilli on August 18, 2015, 12:25:57 PM

Title: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: Chilli on August 18, 2015, 12:25:57 PM
 :neener:  Everything looks great.  I was just noticing a possible improvement, if any of you agree.  The tree trunks and reflections of tree leaves would look better if "muted" more during distant level of detail.  I don't know if this is a function of the tree objects themselves or just the way certain colors pop in this game engine. 

Just throwing that out there.  Not trying to "press" Waffle into making any changes this late in alpha.  I hope this "squares" with Waffle   :uhoh

 :bolt:
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: hitech on August 18, 2015, 12:28:13 PM
What reflections?

HiTech
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: bustr on August 18, 2015, 04:08:50 PM
Chilli,

I rode around and flew around looking for this effect. At the most tree trunks out about 1-2 miles are shiny in the sun. What texture mode and graphics settings are you running at? Then I'll see if I can see your shiny leaves.
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: Chilli on August 18, 2015, 04:40:03 PM
Sorry wrong word maybe.  The leaves on the trees show up very "bright" when sun is on it.  The same with the tree trunks.  I said reflection, because the light seems to flicker just a very small bit when showing the contrast between leaves / trunks against the shaded portion of the trees (which look more natural = just my opinion). 

I am being critical, as I repeat things look great now.  I was wondering if the lighting effects on such lightly colored objects (tree leaves and tree trunks, even some sandy colored crop fields and destroyed ack gun pits) had some kind of, I don't know what to call it so I say, "gamma" control that would make for an easy trial tweak of low level detail.  Basically, if I were an artist, I would say less use of white / amber  :salute

Bustr,

Attached screenshots:  WhiteAsh.png shows the low level of detail "brightness" that I am speaking of.

Sunsetport.png shows the contrast close up and how it is exaggerated by low angle of sun (angle in WhiteAsh is also low).

Brightsand.png shows the bright pixels (look like a circle there) when certain gun emplacements have been destroyed.
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: bustr on August 18, 2015, 04:47:10 PM
What happens when you run the game in 2048 or 1024 mode?
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: Chilli on August 18, 2015, 07:33:17 PM
Running 4096 textures. The screen resolution is low 1280 x 720, and I resized the screen shots to take up less space, but the lighting is more dependent upon game environment, especially with long shadows.

Attached another screenshot without long shadows and blue encircled area shows what I would expect to see.  Red encircled area (slightly closer) begins to show bright contrasted spaces in the trees.  Just my opinon, but the "gamma" is too light .
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: DREDIOCK on August 18, 2015, 09:31:08 PM
One thing I noticed for several versions now is the tree shadows sometimes dance/wiggle as you fly about.

Didnt think much of it because of the problems I was having but I do remember seeing it last night
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: bustr on August 20, 2015, 12:43:53 AM
Have you adjusted your desktop gamma along with HUE\Saturation? At some point what you are asking for is the game be customized to your video card and monitor versus Hitech's. We have had as many requests and questions about fine points in the graphics over this last year that the end result is the same. Please adjust the graphics to look good to me on "my PC" Mr. Hitech.
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: Easyscor on August 20, 2015, 01:11:22 AM
<snip>

Attached another screenshot without long shadows and blue encircled area shows what I would expect to see.  Red encircled area (slightly closer) begins to show bright contrasted spaces in the trees.  Just my opinon, but the "gamma" is too light .

I think that screenshot shows something I'm seeing in my custom object as well. Although I'm no where near done with it, at some distances, my textures are being changed in unexpected ways. I can't say for sure it's the same thing, but my bridge deck (still under construction) looks terribly shinny sometimes. It goes through a sandy texture and color instead of the stone texture it's supposed to have, to stone, to almost white, to almost black, and back to white and finally sandy again. At one point as I fly away, it flashes, alternating between black(?) and white(?). At only the closest point did the proper texture show from a plane. Close up in a GV of course, all was well.
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: 100Coogn on August 20, 2015, 04:00:13 AM
One thing I noticed for several versions now is the tree shadows sometimes dance/wiggle as you fly about.

Didnt think much of it because of the problems I was having but I do remember seeing it last night

I'm seeing the same thing with the trees.  Looks like they're having a party down there, as I fly over them.

Coogan
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: hitech on August 20, 2015, 07:43:05 AM
I think that screenshot shows something I'm seeing in my custom object as well. Although I'm no where near done with it, at some distances, my textures are being changed in unexpected ways. I can't say for sure it's the same thing, but my bridge deck (still under construction) looks terribly shinny sometimes. It goes through a sandy texture and color instead of the stone texture it's supposed to have, to stone, to almost white, to almost black, and back to white and finally sandy again. At one point as I fly away, it flashes, alternating between black(?) and white(?). At only the closest point did the proper texture show from a plane. Close up in a GV of course, all was well.


The object editor built your custom objects? I had not tested it.
Also the texture stuff has changed.
Aces High Texture files.
[/b]



Aces high now uses a pair of textures for all texturing. In this example our texture name is MYNAME and the 2nd texture created will be MYNAME_NEP (NEP for Normal Env Power)
This set of textures has 8 channels that can be used for different purposes.
The first RGB of a pair are the diffuse channel. Below are described the names, not all of which can be used at once.
The 8 channels in the document are named R0 G0 B0 A0 for the first texture
and R1 G1 B1 and A1 for the 2nd texture

Channels      Red Green     Blue       Alpha

Primary Diffuse Red      Green         Blue     Spec or alpha
Primary NEP Normal.X Normal.y Env Or Detail Power or Spec



the texture maker looks for all files based from the root name MYNAME

MYNAME.bmp diffuse channels R0 G0 B0
MYNAME_A.bmp if present will always go to A0
MYNAME_S.bmp will be mapped to A0 or A1 depending on alphas present.
MYNAME_E.bmp Will be mapped to B1
MYNAME_P.bmp Will be mapped to A1 but can not be used if alpha is present
MYNAME_N.bmp Always mapped to R1 G1 channels for a normal map.
MYNAME_B.bmp Is a height map that is automatically converted to the MYNAME_N
MYNAME_D.bmp    Is a detail map for terrain/ground and is put in channel B1

Channels can also be none descriptive and named _R0 _G0 _B0 _A0 _R1 _G1 _B1 _A1

The system will not know how to use these names and must be special purpose textures such as terrains.


[b][center]TERRAIN SETS.[/center][/b]


Terrain sets (TERRSET00.RES) consist of the

1. textures you see on the ground,
2. ground clutter definition file
3. Trees and other non damageable objects. (NOTE these will be selectable by users and placed, but do to copy write issues they will not be replaceable or extractable).
4. Tile tree placement files.
5. Special textures that replace default object files such as the terrain diffuse on a square air field.
   As example terrset01.res contains textures that replace towns and airfield diffuse texture sets.


When ever the system looks for a texture it will search resources in the following order.

Terrain.res

Terrsetxx.res

Htc created terrset that was set as default of the user created terrsetxx.res (Still needs to be written)

And finally stdshape.res.

TEXTURES

The terrset is made up of 6 textures.
atlas0 (16 texture atlas of the small type each is 508 x 508)
atlas0_NEP
atlas1 (4 texture atlas of the large type each is 1016 x 1016)
atlas1_NEP
terrdet_NEP      (16 texture atlas that are used for detail lighting / surface type of terrain 508x508)
objdet_NEP (16 texture  atlas that are used for detail lighting / surface type of terrain 508x508)

To create atlas a 4 text files are read atlas0.txt and atlas1.txt terrdet.txt and objdet.txt
for atlas0 and atlas1 the channels are as follows.

Channel        Red      Green     Blue Alpha
ATLAS0       DiffuseR  DiffuseG  DiffuseB      Detail Type Times 16 i.e. type 0 is 0 1=16 ... 15 = 240
ATLAS0_NEP   Normal.x Normal.y  Spec         (Not used)

Detail textures

terrdet_NEP  Normal.x  Normal.y  BrightNess     Spec

NOTE: In Detail textures Bightness should be 128 for no change in brightness and then brightend and dimmed
    but texture should be normalized so that no change is aparent as you move out.
    Brightness should be named XXXXX_B1 (i.e blue 1) and spec named XXXX_A1 (alpha 1)
   
   Here is our atlas0.txt file
_____________________________ ___________   
atlas,C:\art\ah2\stdtexnew\atlas\terrset00
512,ImageSize
4,ChannelCnt
4,rows
4,cols
../508/sand.bmp
../508/dunes.bmp
../508/dryscrub.bmp
../508/drygrass.bmp
../508/erosiongrass.bmp
../508/grass1.bmp
../508/decidforest.bmp
../508/grassfeild0.bmp
../508/grassfeilds.bmp
../508/roughgrass.bmp
../508/pineforest.bmp
../508/highmeadow.bmp
../508/rockgrass.bmp
../508/rock.bmp
../508/rocksnow.bmp
../508/snow.bmp
_____________________________ _______________________
the first line consts of opertion to perform and output folder
the 2nd line is atlas image size (note the 508 is expanded to 512 with gutters).
the next line
4,Channel cnt must always be this way for you uses.
the ../508/sand.bmp are the bitmaps that will be used in the atlas these are your tile types.
There is nothing specail about the../508/sand.bmp path, it is simply how we have our system set up.

and here is a 4 texture atlas for atlas1

atlas,C:\art\ah2\stdtexnew\atlas\terrset00
1024,ImageSize
4,ChannelCnt
2,rows
2,cols
../1016/farm1.bmp
../1016/farm2.bmp
../1016/farm3.bmp
../1016/village.bmp

I may at later (as time permits) include the setup of these atlas in the terrain editor
terrdet and objdet are set up the same as atlas0.txt

Also I have included a sample of the different files for terrain textures.

HiTech
P.S. if some one can write this more understandable and post , i'll get it in our system for later releases.

Also the terrain editor is not set up to read user terr sets at this point.




Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: Easyscor on August 20, 2015, 12:27:33 PM

The object editor built your custom objects? I had not tested it.
Also the texture stuff has changed.


Yes, I'm quite excited that it built it. It's fun to get back into it again.
My first project is rebuilding the arched bridge from avachanl. The surface shapes are working great but some of my texture mapping, my fault rather then the OE I'm sure, is stretched and isn't showing correctly. I've just gotten started with rebuilding stuff so it will take me some time to test the OE properly. For instance, I haven't checked to see if it will convert/build more then 4 ac files in a single session.

With the changed textures and no way to export all the new ones, I recognize I'll need to include htx files for everything. Ouch. For most things, I'll wait to see what's available in the next TE/OE release but my one-off items I can start rebuilding now.
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: Chilli on August 20, 2015, 01:20:02 PM
Okay, I just flew Patch 71...  what address do I send the Speyburn  :rock  Clouds!  Ship WAKES!!  HOLY MUTHA OF ALL UPDATES>>>>  GUN TRACERRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrssssss szzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!

Haven't heard what gets Waffle going.... Mrs. Butterworth maybe???   :D 

As reported before, there are instances of shiny tree trunks and leaves (even after major reduction contrast, sharpness, and color on monitor).  The largest single difference in dialing back the shimmering and shininess was done by moving the tree detail slider to a lower detail setting.

Confirmed that a particular field looked like reflective sand colored water on approach and then appeared as brown dirt colored field looking back on climbout.

Attached screenshot field_dif.png  red circle shows shiny field, red diamond shows another field transitioning, red arrow shows "water like" texture and beginning to brighten, green arrow shows brown dirt colored field.

Looking at HiTech's detailed explanation there are channels and settings related to lighting spec detail and power.  I hope this is a better description and screenshot of an area where I observed terrain "brightness" changes if anyone thinks it is worthwhile to investigate.  :salute
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: bustr on August 20, 2015, 04:20:17 PM
It's a surface reflection from a brown muddy water puddle called a rice paddy. They have been doing that since Hitech introduced them in the closed alpha. Since I was kid flying in many different types of planes and places in the world. You see variations in light, the ground, and reflections from small bodies of water within a small area like the picture you posted.

Having flown in Texas from the flying club at Kelley AFB as a kid. After a rain you will see variations in Texas like that because of all the temporary puddles. Hmm, dosent Hitech live and fly in Texas....

Making changes to your desktop gamma, HUE and saturation will make changes to what you screen captured.
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: Chilli on August 21, 2015, 03:56:14 AM
Since I am using the Alt + S screenshot capture from Aces High, I was certain that it does not show changes made by any of my monitor settings, only the AH and graphics card settings.  Plus, the verification of others flying by my side and posting, it is NOT something only I see.

Take a look at this video
https://youtu.be/EmYpYfz6A50 (https://youtu.be/EmYpYfz6A50) and pay attention to the very same fields in the terrain.  I wish that I had the time and patience to experiment with these objects in the TE, especially since HiTech was very generous in explaining how they work. 

Anyhow, it is VERY low on my list of things I would like to see change.  I am much more over the moon about the things HTC HAS updated.  :x

Keep up the good work, including the Alpha testers;  see something that strikes you report it, you never know when you might stumble into something that was simply oversight and easy to remedy.

Attachment is satellite imagery of my neighborhood, including metal roof buildings, gravel driveways, wheat fields, and either corn or soy fields, as well as hardwood, and deciduous trees.
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: bustr on August 21, 2015, 03:54:30 PM
FLS's video shows some terrain object problems. There are rice patty's laying at an angle up the base of the canyon side full of water. Worse they are doing the brown dirty tan water reflection response to the sun that should only happen if the patty is on level ground while full of water. Most of the videos showing the alpha do not look as good as running the alpha on your own PC.

Your satellite photo is from orbit down through miles of water vapor, atmospheric gas, and dust. When you are inside the atmosphere in an aircraft closer down it is different. The onboard computer is correcting for the atmosphere column. AH2 is a lot more like that satellite picture in terms of flatter washed colors.   
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: Easyscor on August 22, 2015, 06:58:42 PM
I think I'm beginning to understand the texture channel thing so now I have more questions LOL. I'll start with the easy dumb ones. Please forgive me if they're answered previously.


Why do you call the primary texture for an object or terrain texture, the diffuse texture?

Shouldn't there be a .txt file to accompany the bump map? And if so, what is the format?

What is 'the gutter' in a 508x terrain texture and is it really a 508x508 bitmap?

Is the gutter the reason I see a green(?) outline or border between some of the massed texture types? I see a border between some large areas of massed textures.
Here's a .psave:
-59803,10506,21583,180.0,-90.0,-180.0
ndisles
FOV = 50.5

The default terrain texture sets are arranged in '...\atlas\terrset00.res, 01.res and 02 etc.
I'm assuming the user's set will be in its own folder. Have you determined where it will reside and what the folder naming convention will be?

I haven't seen any trees with bear(ish) branches powdered with snow.
Hitech mentioned that the '3. Trees and other non damageable objects...<snip> but due to copyright issues they will not be replaceable or extractable.' Does this really mean we won't be able to replace them and won't be able to extract an example .ac file to create new ones?

In that same post, is a reference:
'Also I have included a sample of the different files for terrain textures.'
Are those samples found somewhere else?


P.S.
Oh, I forgot, and since no one else is asking as far as I know. Shouldn't there be at least one dedicated underwater texture, or did I miss it? The rest of the guys could do marvels with that stuff and water depth.
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: hitech on August 23, 2015, 09:25:31 AM
I think I'm beginning to understand the texture channel thing so now I have more questions LOL. I'll start with the easy dumb ones. Please forgive me if they're answered previously.


Why do you call the primary texture for an object or terrain texture, the diffuse texture?

Shouldn't there be a .txt file to accompany the bump map? And if so, what is the format?

What is 'the gutter' in a 508x terrain texture and is it really a 508x508 bitmap?

Is the gutter the reason I see a green(?) outline or border between some of the massed texture types? I see a border between some large areas of massed textures.
Here's a .psave:
-59803,10506,21583,180.0,-90.0,-180.0
ndisles
FOV = 50.5

The default terrain texture sets are arranged in '...\atlas\terrset00.res, 01.res and 02 etc.
I'm assuming the user's set will be in its own folder. Have you determined where it will reside and what the folder naming convention will be?

I haven't seen any trees with bear(ish) branches powdered with snow.
Hitech mentioned that the '3. Trees and other non damageable objects...<snip> but due to copyright issues they will not be replaceable or extractable.' Does this really mean we won't be able to replace them and won't be able to extract an example .ac file to create new ones?

In that same post, is a reference:
'Also I have included a sample of the different files for terrain textures.'
Are those samples found somewhere else?


P.S.
Oh, I forgot, and since no one else is asking as far as I know. Shouldn't there be at least one dedicated underwater texture, or did I miss it? The rest of the guys could do marvels with that stuff and water depth.

Why do you call the primary texture for an object or terrain texture, the diffuse texture?
Short version is you understand the name Spec map, bump map, alpha map, the color channel is simply called the diffuse because of how it is used in shaders.

Why diffuse. (It is simply what they are normally called)

http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/11541/diffuse-map-and-texture-map

http://wiki.splashdamage.com/index.php/Basic_Texture_Overview

Why do you call the primary texture for an object or terrain texture, the diffuse texture?
It still does, but we much prefer that you now use normal maps vs bump maps.

What is 'the gutter' in a 508x terrain texture and is it really a 508x508 bitmap?
Do to the way mip mapping works, for a atlas tile to mip map correctly the color around the edges must sample down correctly.
the 4 pixel boarder (512 - 508) is created automatically by ah when the atlas texture is created.
http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/Edge_padding

Any texture can be used under water. But I believe the create all beaches turns them to sand.

The software used to create the tree objects and such are generated by speed tree software. We can not distribute that software to create other objects.

We could if we think it worth while import your objects into speed tree at our office, and then send out the speed tree built stuff.

I am not sure about creating your own complete terrsets, but you can override anything in a terrset by putting it in your terrain.

HiTech

Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: Easyscor on August 23, 2015, 10:09:12 AM
Thanks Hitech, looks like I have some more reading to do.
Title: Re: Waffle "Iron out" the tree reflections????
Post by: Chilli on September 04, 2015, 07:08:52 AM
I have at last isolated the PROBLEM that seems to be somehow exaggerated on my machine.  When I "Disable Detail" (check box 3rd from bottom right - Graphic Detail clipboard menu) the 'bright / shiny' ground goes away, and I see wonderfully blended scenery as I would expect.

Forgive me Waffle for calling on you, as the only thing that I could conclude previously was a color pallete issue.  It now seems that whatever function the "Detail" turns on, does not play well with my machine.

Since others have seen and shown similar experiences, it is at least something to put in your pipe to smoke, if there should be need for change or not.  Anyhow, since I seem to be the most severely afflicted, I am attaching my dxdiag with this post, in the event there could possibly be some hardware conclusions to be made from it.