Really sad to see this. You guys think it was a malfunction, a bad misjudgment of altitude or bad throttle work?
BBC report I watched earlier said investigators are looking at the possibility the jet stalled during the maneuver.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: Squire on August 22, 2015, 06:06:12 PM
I hope the pilot makes it but he must be in the most terrible condition. Its a miracle he was not killed instantly. Condolences to all what an awful thing to happen.
There must be a minimum altitude for aerobatics with jets? Even if he did the loop geez that seemed low.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: Ripsnort on August 22, 2015, 07:52:22 PM
I'm not familiar with the course or the field, but I hope he wasn't intentionally trying to a "fly by" over the traffic for shock value. That would be categorized in the "Hold my beer, watch this!"
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: Tec on August 22, 2015, 08:24:23 PM
Reminiscent of the Thunderbird crash just unfortunately ended on a roadway instead of a clear runway. The aftermath video is not a pretty scene, one car completely pancaked by the jet and a bunch more burnt up by the fireball. If I was the pilot I think I'd almost rather buy it in the crash than live on with the guilt. RIP to the dead.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: DaveBB on August 22, 2015, 08:38:16 PM
That must be a typo, there is no way the pilot could have survived that crash.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: Tec on August 22, 2015, 08:41:22 PM
That must be a typo, there is no way the pilot could have survived that crash.
It is hard to believe but all the go juice is behind the cockpit so if that part broke free on impact he could have made it. I'm sure he's not in pretty shape though.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: 100Coogn on August 22, 2015, 08:55:15 PM
That was terrible. :frown:
Coogan
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: DaveBB on August 22, 2015, 09:00:19 PM
Here is a dashcam still of the aircraft. Notice that the canopy is actually open after impact.
I don't think civilian aircraft have ejection seats, even warbirds like that one. I believe that is one of the drop tanks you are seeing.
Civilian aircraft have ejector seats. A few years ago a civilian Jet Provost cree ejected after catastrophic airframe failure. The Thunder City English Electric Lightning that crashed in SA had ejection seats although explosive canopy bolts failed and the pilot rode the aircraft in. I think that it is reasonable to speculate that the apparent lack of ejection may point to pilot incapacitation, either that or he was willing to stay with the aircraft in order to avoid civilians on the ground. Pilot is reported as an ex RAF Harrier driver and BA captain. Harrier pilots were pretty much exclusively in the top echelons of the RAF.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: Zimme83 on August 23, 2015, 04:38:09 AM
BBC report I watched earlier said investigators are looking at the possibility the jet stalled during the maneuver.
From the video it looked as he was very near a stall atleast.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: SysError on August 23, 2015, 08:18:02 AM
I am finding that the reporting from a small local paper is much better than the national press.
http://www.theargus.co.uk/
I do not know if the local Shoreham or Worthing papers are also doing a better job or not. (Do they have any local papers that are more than just ad circulars?)
I wonder how well the regional TV and radio stations are covering the story.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: cpxxx on August 23, 2015, 09:31:14 AM
I watched the same aircraft and pilot in two separate displays a few weeks ago. He is a former RAF Harrier pilot and airline Captain and a very experienced display pilot. Not someone who might feel the need to overfly the traffic for shock value.
Something went wrong early in the loop as you can see him roll left turning the loop into a sort of half Cuban which would have taken him off the display line and in line with the road. I can't see how he would want to do that intentionally. The fact that he survived implies a relatively low rate of descent which meant he was trying to recover right up to the last moment. I wonder if the engine flamed out at a critical moment.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: DaveBB on August 23, 2015, 10:25:09 AM
During the dive, there is something streaming from the right drop tank. Also, the death toll has reached 11 now.
it might be a contrail created by a vortex, on the video is looked like flaps were down. On the video u can see the plane almost stall on the way down, it wobbles a bit and that might have forced the plane to go lower than intended.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: Puma44 on August 23, 2015, 10:10:51 PM
It appears the slight roll off the vertical near the top prevented enough vertical airspace to complete the loop. Perhaps the pilot realized the lack of available altitude and pulled a little harder in order to avoid the ground, getting the pre stall burble and wing wobble. Most definitely some seat cushion suckage going on. So close......
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 24, 2015, 08:01:02 AM
Any reports on pilot condition?
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: SysError on August 24, 2015, 08:23:59 AM
Go good source appears to be: http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/13620557.Updates_on_the_fatal_crash_at_Shoreham_Airshow/
Pilot with RV8Tors http://www.rv8tors.com/
A bit of a bio here: http://www.rv8tors.com/pilots.html
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: rpm on August 24, 2015, 12:00:04 PM
Vintage jets will not be allowed to perform "high-energy aerobatics" over land at UK air shows after the Shoreham crash. A spokesman for CAA said the restrictions would remain in place until further notice, and it would be conducting "additional risk assessments on all forthcoming civil air displays". http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34044383
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: Widewing on August 24, 2015, 09:15:48 PM
I watched the crash video several times and consulted with a friend who regularly flies a MiG-15 and F-86 at airshows....
The loop was started too low. Net result is the aircraft reached the apex too low. When the pilot realized that he may not have enough altitude, he dumped flaps and pulled hard on the elevators. This resulted in a nose high accelerated stall, (note that the Hunter dropped the left wing when it stalled) and the Hunter simply pancaked. Pilot error.
This is a common mistake, one most pilots only make once.
This video shows the stall very well....
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: SysError on August 25, 2015, 08:30:36 AM
"Shoreham Airshow disaster: Hawker Hunter's final take-off 'unusual' expert says"
One possible reason:
"Looking at the video the aircraft take-off looks different. Obviously the plane did not fly in the way it should have done. No-one is going to know the answer until the investigation is complete."
"He suggested noise abatement starting procedures may have been in place for the flight so as not to disturb residents with the loud noise."
I watched the crash video several times and consulted with a friend who regularly flies a MiG-15 and F-86 at airshows....
The loop was started too low. Net result is the aircraft reached the apex too low. When the pilot realized that he may not have enough altitude, he dumped flaps and pulled hard on the elevators. This resulted in a nose high accelerated stall, (note that the Hunter dropped the left wing when it stalled) and the Hunter simply pancaked. Pilot error.
This is a common mistake, one most pilots only make once.
This video shows the stall very well....
This is possible and no doubt one of the options being explored. However the use of flaps during manoeuvres is SOP in the Hunter. I know it because I saw the same aircraft and pilot in two separate displays recently. Flaps were down except for the high speed passes.
One other point is that the London TMA starts 5500 above the airport. This might have been a factor in the accident.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: cpxxx on August 26, 2015, 02:57:49 AM
"Shoreham Airshow disaster: Hawker Hunter's final take-off 'unusual' expert says"
One possible reason:
"Looking at the video the aircraft take-off looks different. Obviously the plane did not fly in the way it should have done. No-one is going to know the answer until the investigation is complete."
"He suggested noise abatement starting procedures may have been in place for the flight so as not to disturb residents with the loud noise."
Wow, I seen some stupid reports from so called experts. But that has to be the stupidest. He saw the take off at an entirely different airport and he 'knew" something was wrong. What a genius! Somehow the ex RAF pilot on board failed to notice any problem and carried on anyway.
The media have once again lowered the bar in their reporting. Journalism has become a shameful profession.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: Zimme83 on August 26, 2015, 05:53:00 AM
Its not the first accident of this type, The Thunderbird crash was in most part identical and there was a Eurofighter nearly crashed in a similar way.
I think that a way to avoid it is to ban airshow maneuvers at low altitiude that goes "downwards" and require a high AoA to pull out of the dive, like the split-S and similar maneuvers.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: DaveBB on August 26, 2015, 06:02:57 AM
Why is there such a failing in such simple maneuvers? You need X amount of altitude and Y amount of airspeed to start a loop. Add a safety margin of 25% to each one. Which I'm sure there probably already is.
Is it a human factor? Are these highly experienced pilots embarrassed if they have to abort a maneuver? There is definitely some confounding factor at play here.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: SysError on August 26, 2015, 06:52:19 AM
Wow, I seen some stupid reports from so called experts. But that has to be the stupidest. He saw the take off at an entirely different airport and he 'knew" something was wrong. What a genius! Somehow the ex RAF pilot on board failed to notice any problem and carried on anyway.
The media have once again lowered the bar in their reporting. Journalism has become a shameful profession.
I think that you are over reading it.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: DmonSlyr on August 26, 2015, 09:27:01 AM
I am happy that the pilot is still alive. Have not heard any reports of him yet. I'm sure he will be able to tell exactly what happened if he is able to speak. I have no idea how injured he is. Trying to get reports on it.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: DaveBB on August 26, 2015, 10:26:10 AM
The ejection seat charge did fire. Unknown whether it was caused by the force of impact or the pilot initiated it himself.
A former RAF instructor pilot does blast Andy Hill for entering the loop too low.
I am happy that the pilot is still alive. Have not heard any reports of him yet. I'm sure he will be able to tell exactly what happened if he is able to speak. I have no idea how injured he is. Trying to get reports on it.
last I saw on his condition was that he was put in an induced coma.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: MiloMorai on August 26, 2015, 03:31:52 PM
This 'expert' needs to look at a map. There is open land north of the airport and housing south of the airport.
Are not all ejection seats deactivated?
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: cpxxx on August 26, 2015, 03:40:10 PM
That's the Daily Mail. You cannot trust them. Look a good friend a former RAF Harrier pilot knew Andy, another Harrier pilot. Harrier pilots were the best of the best. Perhaps that colours my viewpoint because I know he's the best pilot I ever met.. I think something went wrong and I think the investigation will bear that out. It's not as if I have illusions, a few friends of mine killed themselves doing something stupid. There is nothing like doing a missing man formation over a funeral of someone you know who effed up. You do it for the family but you keep your mouth shut. I didn't know this man but it's far from sure he screwed the pooch. Check the right stuff!
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: SysError on September 05, 2015, 09:59:41 AM
Update from Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB):
Shoreham air crash: jet showed no 'abnormal indications'
This is the most significant paragraph: "Cockpit imagery is being analysed to help understand the final manoeuvre in more detail and to provide system status information. Initial findings indicate that the minimum air speed of the aircraft was approximately 100 KIAS whilst inverted at the top of the manoeuvre. The associated audio recording is being analysed for information relating to the aircraft systems."
That's a big clue as to the direction that investigation will take. I'm no expert on Hunters but I imagine 100 knots is below the stall speed for that aircraft. It imagine it would be difficult to regain the energy in the descent. Particularly from the altitude of 2600 feet.
It's still too soon to rush to judgement.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: MiloMorai on September 05, 2015, 11:54:53 AM
Hunter Mk6 Pilot manual
http://www.rafjever.org/hunter6pictures.htm
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: Widewing on September 05, 2015, 02:04:25 PM
Obviously, it's too early for a definitive cause to be determined....
That said, if there was no failure of the aircraft, the pilot (Hill) will own it. It's that simple.
In this case, I'd give odds at 100 to 1 that there was no aircraft failure.
Air show professionals have stated privately that the maneuver was started at or below the air show minimum altitude (AGL) for any aerobatics, and the apex of the maneuver was far too low to have even a shred of margin. One suggested that seeing his altitude was insufficient, he should have rolled out at the top of the loop. Unlike Leslie Hatcher, these gents will keep their opinions among themselves and await the accident report. It wouldn't be the first time an air show pilot G locked himself when falling below minimums.
Of course, we'll never know what was going through Hill's mind until they can talk with him, and that will probably be a while before that happens.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: cpxxx on September 05, 2015, 03:36:16 PM
A friend, a former fast jet pilot and current airshow pilot who knows Andy Hill suggested 'turret drive failure' on his FB page quite soon after the accident. I haven't spoken to him since but I believe it would result in loss of hydraulic power. I'm sure that's one avenue of investigation.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: DaveBB on September 05, 2015, 08:54:09 PM
In one of the photos I posted, the aircraft's nose is about 20 degrees above the horizon milliseconds before impact. The attitude of the aircraft was correct, the sink rate was simply negative. That may imply that the pilot was conscious and all hydraulic systems were working.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: SysError on September 11, 2015, 07:52:27 AM
Stay tuned, we may find out a lot soon.
"Friend of Shoreham Airshow jet pilot Andrew Hills reveals he's on the mend as police prepare to question him"
Questions: Why would the police question him? Do aeronautics investigators have to pass their questions through or in the presence of the police in England? Typically are the reports that are written because of such investigations made available quickly, or is it wait and wait and wait...?
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: MiloMorai on September 11, 2015, 08:16:48 AM
Quote
Why would the police question him?
Possibly to find out if criminal charges should be laid against the pilot.
Title: Re: Hawker crash at airshow today
Post by: Zimme83 on September 11, 2015, 08:39:44 AM
Guess its routine in such cases that the police do their own investigation. Air crash investigators dont handle legal responsibility as most of us know. I dobut however that they will do anything besides questioning him until the air crash investigation is done.