Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on September 24, 2015, 04:47:00 AM
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Texas set a new wind generated power record of almost 11,500 MW Sunday night a week ago (9/13), besting a previous record set in February. Because Texas has it's own power grid, and a few other factors, Texas wind energy producers couldn't sell excess production to other power grids and we suddenly had a surplus of power in Texas.
There was so much surplus wind energy the cost of electricity went from $17.49 to -$8.52 per megawatt-hour. They were paying utilities to take it off their hands! Let's hope this trend continues.
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/record-wind-generation-pushes-ercot-prices-into-negative-territory/405606/
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2015/09/texas_electricity_goes_negative_wind_power_was_so_plentiful_one_night_that.html
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Thats pretty neat. Im all for wind farms for power generation
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The reason why they are able to give away wind-generated power is that they are getting a $23 per megawatt-hour tax subsidy from federal taxpayers. Congress ended the subsidy this year but existing turbines are grandfathered in for 20 years.
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We pay,, upfront with subsidies from your taxes or after the fact with the bill,, but we pay either way.
Oh and the energy companies spend massive amounts of money trying to react to the wind energy input, so we aren't in the dark when the wind stops blowing!
And of course there is the price tag to build a wind mill that will never be recovered by it.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-09/653FD920-C7BE-4608-84F6-55A1B80E6B02_zpsovhwywew.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/WWhiskey/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-09/653FD920-C7BE-4608-84F6-55A1B80E6B02_zpsovhwywew.jpg.html)
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You mean like the massive milk and grain subsidies the government pays farmers? News flash, they pay lots of businesses subsidies.
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You mean like the massive milk and grain subsidies the government pays farmers? News flash, they pay lots of businesses subsidies.
yes,, thus the illusion of cheap groceries !
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I actually thought it was pretty cool that Texas is a stand alone power grid
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I actually thought it was pretty cool that Texas is a stand alone power grid
yes me too!
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My cousin is the plant manager for Western Canada here in Alberta for our largest wind farm, Vestas has quite a number of 50 to 75 wind machine farms in the Southern part of the Province, where winds often blow at 30 MPH constantly for weeks on end out of the Rocky Mountains to the West. I believe his plant is rated at 500 MW total output, so 11,500 is an insane amount of power. I don't know much about the $/subsidy end of it, especially in the USA, but I do know when one screws up it's a pretty big ordeal, they've had a number of them catch fire there, and it's quite the sight to see, as putting them out isn't really an easy option.
This town in Pincher Creek isn't very big, but will soon have 500+ wind generators running, and be over 1000MW of total output.
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When I was a kid I dated a dairy farmer's daughter. I went to pick her up and meet her folks. My family farmed when I was little and I was a decent enough kid so I wasn't too nervous about meeting her Dad. Figured we had some common ground to start on.
Well, turns out he was a pretty protective guy and put me through a pretty thorough interrogation/lay-down-the-law session. I made it through that and we both relaxed a bit. Trying to win points, I asked about the farm and why there were quite a few empty pens around the place. He explained that it was an off year for production in the market due to surplus so they weren't really producing much on the farm and had sent most of the cows to market. I asked if he was going to have to farm something else or get a job in town. He explained that the Government was paying him not to produce any milk...
I was a clueless kid but thought that sounded ridiculous. Sometimes its best to keep your thoughts to yourself...
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4 million a pop per turbine in the US. Glad it works, sad for the birds
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When I was a kid I dated a dairy farmer's daughter. I went to pick her up and meet her folks. My family farmed when I was little and I was a decent enough kid so I wasn't too nervous about meeting her Dad. Figured we had some common ground to start on.
Well, turns out he was a pretty protective guy and put me through a pretty thorough interrogation/lay-down-the-law session. I made it through that and we both relaxed a bit. Trying to win points, I asked about the farm and why there were quite a few empty pens around the place. He explained that it was an off year for production in the market due to surplus so they weren't really producing much on the farm and had sent most of the cows to market. I asked if he was going to have to farm something else or get a job in town. He explained that the Government was paying him not to produce any milk...
I was a clueless kid but thought that sounded ridiculous. Sometimes its best to keep your thoughts to yourself...
Sad economics here, one thing the u.s. can do well is grow food. so much so that the farmers side of the economies would collapse without regulation. Farmers are a necessity and allowing them to go under because of rock bottom prices is not a option. Its a big money game on a global scale. Skyrocketing corn prices are gone with the current abundance of oil and the hard life on the farm will likely cycle around. Also, Most of the Farm bill goes to feeding people not paying farmers. :old:
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one thing the u.s. can do well is grow food. Most of the Farm bill goes to feeding people not paying farmers. :old:
Exactly
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I read recently that while the wind power generation in TX is great, there is a bit of a problem with power distribution especially when generation exceeds demand. The problem according to the article was that TX has a mostly isolated grid from the rest of the country. That means that its less likely for a cascading power failure in neighboring states will take out the TX power grid, but it also means that a lot of renewable energy production in TX can't be made available to customers outside the state. Not being able to sell excess power will have a stabilizing effect on energy prices, keeping them artificially high. But that's probably necessary in order to preserve traditional power production that we need to fill in the gaps when natural power sources sag or don't produce enough during peak demand times. We still need a revolution in power storage, otherwise we'll always be reliant on traditional power sources to fill in when the renewable sources can't keep up.
Personally I'm in favor of pumped water as a great way to put excess power in the bank. Set up a couple of dual reservoirs with as much of an altitude difference between the two as practical. When there is excess power, pump the water uphill to the high reservoir. When power generation isn't keeping up (hot day with no wind for example, or during hot nights when local solar isn't available), run the water back downhill through turbines. The reservoirs, if located in favorable locations, could provide for natural wildlife preservation and/or recreation which could help justify the expense of creating them, they have fewer drawbacks than some of the other stranger ideas like pumping high pressure air into underground caverns like a big high pressure bottle (fracking probably causes earthquakes, what would this idea do?), and it has the potential to dramatically reduce demand for fossil fuel burning power plants that are currently required for peak load times even in areas with lots of renewable energy sources.
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I also think a lot of these power projects could be done a lot cheaper if the govt were permitted to compete by providing govt infrastructure construction jobs to anyone out of work and facing expiration of welfare or unemployment benefits. Use those social welfare dollars for projects that benefit the nation instead of paying people to stay at home.
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I read recently that while the wind power generation in TX is great, there is a bit of a problem with power distribution especially when generation exceeds demand. The problem according to the article was that TX has a mostly isolated grid from the rest of the country. That means that its less likely for a cascading power failure in neighboring states will take out the TX power grid, but it also means that a lot of renewable energy production in TX can't be made available to customers outside the state. Not being able to sell excess power will have a stabilizing effect on energy prices, keeping them artificially high. But that's probably necessary in order to preserve traditional power production that we need to fill in the gaps when natural power sources sag or don't produce enough during peak demand times. We still need a revolution in power storage, otherwise we'll always be reliant on traditional power sources to fill in when the renewable sources can't keep up.
Personally I'm in favor of pumped water as a great way to put excess power in the bank. Set up a couple of dual reservoirs with as much of an altitude difference between the two as practical. When there is excess power, pump the water uphill to the high reservoir. When power generation isn't keeping up (hot day with no wind for example, or during hot nights when local solar isn't available), run the water back downhill through turbines. The reservoirs, if located in favorable locations, could provide for natural wildlife preservation and/or recreation which could help justify the expense of creating them, they have fewer drawbacks than some of the other stranger ideas like pumping high pressure air into underground caverns like a big high pressure bottle (fracking probably causes earthquakes, what would this idea do?), and it has the potential to dramatically reduce demand for fossil fuel burning power plants that are currently required for peak load times even in areas with lots of renewable energy sources.
i like this thinking, but you are probably looking at a lot of loss do to inefficiency, friction loss, and evaporation. would be better to sell it downstream. :headscratch:
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In my area they could be hooked up to water well fields that would only come online as excess power is generated, you wouldn't be storing energy but you would be leveling out the field for the power companies, but then you expose your water to evaporation when it was perfectly fine under ground where it was!
the high/ low reservoir is an awesome way as well, since you really only need pumps to push the water up and turbines to recover the energy, but, in Texas I can't think of anyplace that the terrain needed exsists? We would need to send power into Colorado or New Mexico to find high and low areas to hold the water!
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My information may be dated, but I do believe that there has not been a wind turbine or solar panel made that has produced a net gain in energy. Meaning it takes far more energy to make the wind turbines/solar panels than they will produce over their lifetimes.
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i like this thinking, but you are probably looking at a lot of loss do to inefficiency, friction loss, and evaporation. would be better to sell it downstream. :headscratch:
Yea, but we're talking about excess power production that, for whatever reason, can't be distributed to locations that need it. There are lots of localities that basically unhook renewable power from the grid when they're producing too much power to use because there's nothing they can do with the power when production exceeds demand. Some of that is driven by economic realities because you can't just flip a switch and turn on and off a coal plant for example. But that coal plant MUST stay in business to fill in when demand exceeds natural source production, so when there's too much power production they unplug the windmills. If the excess windmill production could be somehow stored and used in an on-demand production facility (like you can easily do with hydro-electric power), we'd have much less of a need to keep those coal plants running hot all the time.
And it doesn't matter what the efficiency losses are, when you consider that unplugged and unused power has an efficiency of zero, or less than zero when you consider that each unused kilowatt from a wind turbine is probably offset by the need to keep some coal plant producing that same kilowatt. Banking even a fraction of that lost excess generation is better than just throwing it away.
The social benefits of providing respectable skill-building infrastructure creation jobs to people willing to work is a bonus that can't be directly measured.
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My information may be dated, but I do believe that there has not been a wind turbine or solar panel made that has produced a net gain in energy. Meaning it takes far more energy to make the wind turbines/solar panels than they will produce over their lifetimes.
I'm not sure that's going to remain true, with wind turbines at least. It took years for Hoover dam to pay off but it gave a lot of people jobs and we're still reaping the benefits of that massive investment. If they build the wind turbines to last and the power infrastructure is modified to maximize the use of the power they produce (including some sort of excess power storage), then I don't think there's any reason a well placed wind turbine wouldn't pay for itself over time. Decrease in pollution is another direct benefit that can't be directly measured in terms of dollars, but can certainly be measured in terms of environmental quality and resulting population health benefits.
I'm not as convinced about solar, at least not yet. But I think over time we'll find ways to more sustainably grow solar cells using less power and with fewer industrial by-products. Efficiency will also rise, and we may even figure out how to loft enough cells into orbit to maximize collection efficiency and beam it down to earth for use. There's a level of tech maturity and a huge initial investment that will be needed, but the payoff ought to be worth it.
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My information may be dated, but I do believe that there has not been a wind turbine or solar panel made that has produced a net gain in energy. Meaning it takes far more energy to make the wind turbines/solar panels than they will produce over their lifetimes.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/8A55276A-26C5-480A-8541-5C6EE2418542.png_zps9sodt9lm.jpeg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/WWhiskey/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-09/8A55276A-26C5-480A-8541-5C6EE2418542.png_zps9sodt9lm.jpeg.html)
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yes,, thus the illusion of cheap groceries !
Gibberish
There is so much money held by conglomerates they have to subsidise everything to keep the whole myth of the free market going :rofl
Funding welfare, farming, businesses and funding the wars to create more funds :rofl
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Gibberish
There is so much money held by conglomerates they have to subsidise everything to keep the whole myth of the free market going :rofl
Funding welfare, farming, businesses and funding the wars to create more funds :rofl
what are you, twelve?
I'm guessing you know everything there is to know about farming?
you've spent from before the sun came up to long after its left the sky trying to get a crop in, or out?
you've dealt with the government farm plan and figured out how many acres of each crop you can plant and stay within the program?
you've tried to figure out if you can afford to go outside the plan?
You've figured out what rotation best suits your land?
You know the depth to set up the planter for corn according to the almanac or the farm report or you've just done it enough years that you can feel it in your bones?
You know what to do if your wrong?
I'm betting the most you know about farming is how the end result tastes!
You've been out breaking ice before school, and again after it?
You've fixed fence in a blizzard ?
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Yea, but we're talking about excess power production that, for whatever reason, can't be distributed to locations that need it. There are lots of localities that basically unhook renewable power from the grid when they're producing too much power to use because there's nothing they can do with the power when production exceeds demand. Some of that is driven by economic realities because you can't just flip a switch and turn on and off a coal plant for example. But that coal plant MUST stay in business to fill in when demand exceeds natural source production, so when there's too much power production they unplug the windmills. If the excess windmill production could be somehow stored and used in an on-demand production facility (like you can easily do with hydro-electric power), we'd have much less of a need to keep those coal plants running hot all the time.
And it doesn't matter what the efficiency losses are, when you consider that unplugged and unused power has an efficiency of zero, or less than zero when you consider that each unused kilowatt from a wind turbine is probably offset by the need to keep some coal plant producing that same kilowatt. Banking even a fraction of that lost excess generation is better than just throwing it away.
The social benefits of providing respectable skill-building infrastructure creation jobs to people willing to work is a bonus that can't be directly measured.
ok but where do you get the water? i hope you do not say texas. even colorados water is spoken for. if you texans have extra water id pump it back in the ground. :old: still, i like the thinking, use the earth and nature to solve our problems. :aok
we can brainstorm on a video game forum because it brought us together but if there is a good solution im sure it will come out, smart kids are abound, and the market works. :banana:
Also, texas dont take no crap, so they will get the job done. :rock