Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: N95KF on October 09, 2015, 09:37:28 AM

Title: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: N95KF on October 09, 2015, 09:37:28 AM
In a perfect world, according to game design, what do you think would be the preferred routine in aces high?  How was the game designed to be played, what was their vision? What was the ultimate idea of the creators?  I think it would replicate and mimic the elements and factors of the Second World War as close as possible.  First of all, everyone would be in a squad, no lone wolfs.  Second, every squad would run organized missions only, no upping solo or scattered (unless you are going to rendezvous with your squad or unit).  A mission is always comprised of one of several types, or a mixture of the following:


*Bombing Mission (NOE, Strat Run, Town, Airfield, High Alt, Low Alt, Medium, Heavy, etc.)

*Escort Mission (NOE, Short, or Long Range Fighters, drop tanks, targets of opportunity, etc.)

*Scramble (Fighters taking off in unison to guard and defend an area under attack)

*Bomber Intercept (High Altitude Fighters approaching a location of known enemy bombers)

*Fighter Sweep / Patrol (Hunting for enemy fighters/bombers in an area they are thought to be)

*Intel / Recon / Surveillance (scouting for GV’s, carrier/airbase positions/layout, investigating dar bar)

*Air-to-Ground Attacks (fields, town, ack, troops, GV’s, trains, convoys, ships, barges, CV’s, strafe, vulch)

*Cargo Runs (resupplying fields, GV’s, Strats, or capturing a town with escort pilots)

*GV Runs (all of the above combined; supply, patrol, attack, defend, ambush, surface-to-air, recon)


    In order to complete these missions, we need an effective coordination of ALL units, fighters, attack aircraft, bombers, cargo planes, reconnaissance, fleets, paratroopers, and ground vehicles.


 

    The way you get this done is by organizing multiple squads to work together on various missions, and ultimately, the big picture.  We would delegate someone to coordinate the entire theater of war for each country, or possibly have an aces high employee commanding 24/7, and following his orders/waypoints/objectives.  Participation could reward participants in various ways.  You need a country general centrally planning and organizing the flow of troops, resources, ordnance, fighters, and target smashing.  Someone for each country coordinating the flow of the war much like a general would have.  Think of the Commander in the Battlefield Series.  He selects squads and assigns them a waypoint with an objective, and it is constantly changing.  He then gives orders to units to attack/defend different areas.  The commander coordinates supply drops, radar scanning, airstrikes, etc.


    You would have a hierarchy and chain of command.  You would have nation leader (e.g. Knights General) who is responsible for the entire nation’s operation.  He gives vague orders to his theater of operations commanders (Major/Colonel) who are responsible for large sector groups of the map and certain squads dedicated to that geographical region (sector group).  That commander then gives more specific orders to squad leaders (Captains/Lieutenants) who then post and run missions.  You may even break it down a step further to split a single mission into 2 units, each with their own leader.  I think this type of organization would make the game more fun, competitive, organized, and realistic.


    The General or Colonel could also give DIRECT orders for specialty missions such as intelligence, reconnaissance, surveillance, and relaying key information which helps them make decisions and give orders.  These specialty missions would locate ground vehicles, locate carrier positions, drop supplies and troops, spot large enemy formations, and relay positions of airfields for bomber runs so they can run a successful briefing and know exactly what direction they need to hit the field from.  They could cause diversions and trick the enemy into thinking we’re hitting northern airfields, when in reality we are sending 50 B-17’s to hit their HQ, City, and other Strats!  20 different squads, running 20 different independent missions, to 5 different targets, without coordinating or communicating with each other is not the way to win a war.


    This wish is for an Aces High Hierarchy and Chain of Command to produce a more realistic, organized, main arena based on missions, waypoints, and known objectives.  It is to have eyes and ears on the ground and in the air, to gather intelligence and relay it to commanders for pre-mission planning.  Instead of 10 squads hitting 1 base, we can have 10 squads hit 5 bases while defending 5 others.  Instead of 1 man attacking a B-17 formation, we can have 2 squadrons intercepting while 2 squadrons are waiting to scramble at locations thought to be in danger.  We can defend bases that were recently taken instead of capturing the airfield, and then neglecting it and fighting elsewhere.  We can hit 3 strat targets, while taking bases in the North and South simultaneously.  Most importantly, we can better coordinate our offense so we don’t halfway take 6 bases without completing because the goons were 30 minutes behind the bombers and de-ackers, and then the guns came back when the goon got there.  All that wasted manpower and time.  We can coordinate an HQ hit 15 minutes after the city is decimated instead of whacking the HQ, having it come back online in 20 minutes, then hitting the city; again causing another waste in time and manpower.


    You could implement some of the other ideas I have read on this forum with this idea, such as down times for pilots.  If you bail, you wait x amount of time, killed, you wait z amount of time, etc.  Or, if you are killed during a mission, you can sit in a timed spawn pool which requires x amount of dead pilots in order to re-up in a current mission where THE MOST MANPOWER IS NEEDED.  Not necessarily the mission you were originally in.  This way, the spawn pool guarantees that you do not up alone.  Any pilot dead within 30 seconds will be given the opportunity to respawn together.  Something like that.  This could be implemented in ANY WAY, this is not the main point of my original topic.  Maybe after you die, you can just get scooped up in another mission that is about to takeoff, or jump into a gunner position on a bomber flown by someone in your squad, or rejoin them with other, recently-killed, squad members.  Whatever!!


    As said in a previous post, In general, this thread speaks to have rewards that create an incentive for organized actions in a realistic, goal-oriented manner.   Nobody is looking for a re-write of the game code, just an adjustment to "guide" players into more avenues of game play.  Remember, we like to think of Aces High as a sim, not a game.  A niche crowd, not arcade gamers like War Thunder.  Lets coordinate and mix bombers, GV’s, attack planes, and fighters together, which is what WW2 Air Combat was all about.  Fighting, Bombing, Dive-Bombing, and Taking Land with Troops.


I WANT TO SEE MORE MISSIONS, ORGANIZATION, TEAMWORK, STRATEGY, COORDINATION, COMMUNICATION, AND CENTRAL PLANNING! 

Hierarchy, Chain of Command Looks Like:

:old:
 :police: :police:
 :joystick: :joystick: :joystick:
 :airplane: :airplane: :airplane: :airplane:

Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: waystin2 on October 09, 2015, 09:43:29 AM
Well thought out and you will find this environment already exists in FSO and Scenarios.  As far as the main arenas, you will find players and squads like mine- the Pigs On The Wing who will not be told how, what, where and when to do something.  Just do not see this happening.

 :salute

Way

 
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: APDrone on October 09, 2015, 09:59:10 AM
Kinda what Way said..

Well presented idea.  Not sure how long you've been a member of our community, but you'll find that any sort of mandated behavior will be met with stiff, sudden, violent resistance.

Now.. you'll find exactly what you're looking for in Friday Squad Operations ( FSO )  and Scenarios that are scheduled though-out the year.  With the exception of some of your mission types.  Scramble missions are particularly tricky to factor into a game, as managing available pilots for balance is tough.

In short, the Main Arena, as it exists will probably never go away.  A LOT of players are lone wolfs and will stay that way, by their own preference.

It might be interesting to see in its own arena.

 :salute
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: DubiousKB on October 09, 2015, 09:59:36 AM
I was like you once...  :noid

As bustr pointed out to me awhile ago when I was all p*ss and vineger, what really got me excited about the game was larger missions with coordination, and i wanted that applied to the Main Arena.

Problem is, that's not what the Main Arena is for. All the wonderful aspects of immersion occur within the special events: Friday Squad Operations, Monthly scenarios broken down into frames, historical "snapshots", and the like.

It will be very difficult if not impossible (see cat herding), to organize folks in a sandbox.

(http://www.poprewind.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/lowered-expectations-feature.jpg)

Take that enthusiasm to some of the event creators and see if you can get involved. Better yet, get involved with the testing and terrain creation of the new Aces High III, that HTC and co. are working on as we type!

Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: ImADot on October 09, 2015, 10:07:38 AM
I remember reading that this game is NOT about recreating WWII; it was never intended to. It's all about using WWII planes/vehicles however you want in a sandbox terrain.

It would be a very bad idea to try to force any kind of singular gameplay on everyone. Not everyone is interested in waiting to be told to fly a particular plane in a particular fashion in a particular place at a particular time.
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Lusche on October 09, 2015, 10:15:10 AM

I WANT TO SEE MORE MISSIONS, ORGANIZATION, TEAMWORK, STRATEGY, COORDINATION, COMMUNICATION, AND CENTRAL PLANNING! 

Hierarchy, Chain of Command Looks Like:

:old:
 :police: :police:
 :joystick: :joystick: :joystick:
 :airplane: :airplane: :airplane: :airplane:


Would be fine with me as long as I am the  :old:
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Wiley on October 09, 2015, 10:21:47 AM
Not everyone is interested in waiting to be told to fly a particular plane in a particular fashion in a particular place at a particular time.

Especially not all the time.  But if it's Friday night at 11:00 Eastern, then there's nothing better. :)

http://www.ahevents.org/events/fso.html (http://www.ahevents.org/events/fso.html)

I too am glad you are enthusiastic, N95KF, but it would never fly in the MA.  For starters, there would be about 30 people per side who want to be the old guy with the cane in the hierarchy.

...As Lusche just demonstrated. ;)

Wiley.
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: pembquist on October 09, 2015, 12:35:37 PM
The scenarios are great and have a lot of what your wanting. The MA....well some of us are not overly found of being told what to do all the time. On the other hand the beauty of the game is that there is nothing about the game that is stopping you from organizing what you are talking about, but you will have to persuade not dictate. Some special events had time outs, so you could have multiple lives but only 2 in 5 minutes or such. Works fine but not in the MA.
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Ratsy on October 09, 2015, 01:01:17 PM
I can only echo what the others, far more experienced than I, have said.

1. FSO and Scenarios speak to your wish quite well
2. If you were to nudge King Mufasa and Puumba (HiTech and Skuzzy) they would tell you that they have built a combat simulator based within the technical parameters of WWII aircraft - not a 'history' simulator.  To obtain the history simulator, see point 1.

HOWEVER - on any given day in the main arena, through complete serendipity, country leaders emerge, objectives are identified, and everybody cooperates to do extraordinary things.  When that happens - it's a rush.  It's special.

I wanted to join the chorus applauding your thought process, thesis, and how you supported your ideas.  They are good ideas.  The environment, and the objectives (vision) of the authors, is conducive to combat (with room for subscribers to organize).  That is what the SEA arenas do for Aces High.

If you haven't flown FSO, the 412th Friday Night Volunteers, JG11, our squadron, and others will welcome walk-ons and help demonstrate what is possible three Friday's a month.

If you haven't joined a squadron you might consider it.  Several squadrons have 'Squadron Nights' where the principles you illustrated are put into action.

Good work.

 :salute

Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: bustr on October 09, 2015, 06:10:02 PM
Well thought out and you will find this environment already exists in FSO and Scenarios.  As far as the main arenas, you will find players and squads like mine- the Pigs On The Wing who will not be told how, what, where and when to do something.  Just do not see this happening.

 :salute

Way

Here is what POTW has learned to be the simplest thing in the MA to influence numbers to fight for you. Even in the old days with 500-600 players in the MA.

The moment our CO Waystin logs in, we just go to the red guys, kill the red guys and break the red guys toys. When POTW mounts up and does this, green guys join in. Then a fight is started and everyone has fun. Some times we win, some times the red guys stop us. We never announce to the country we are going somewhere, we just up and do it. Everyone else is free to choose from past experience if we are worth following along with.

If you want to start action in the MA. Get 3 or 4 guys to follow you to a field and start breaking things. Then you will have a response or capture a field. Today most players want to show up late and get safe kills after someone else has pacified the local combat zone. You want numbers to follow your initiative, first start an obvious fight. If you win enough of these and become a name recognized fun starter. Then, if you put up a mission, players will follow your name because of your reputation. In the MA you don't impose anything on the customer, especially a command structure for their $14.95 a month . You become a personality that attracts Hitech's customers to follow you into fun for their $14.95.

If you show this community of customers you can start fights and win fights. You will be well on your way to winning followers in the MA's cult of personality. First you have to personally lead from the front until you become a name. That unfortunately takes time.
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: caldera on October 09, 2015, 06:41:19 PM
I remember reading that this game is NOT about recreating WWII; it was never intended to. It's all about using WWII planes/vehicles however you want in a sandbox terrain.

It would be a very bad idea to try to force any kind of singular gameplay on everyone. Not everyone is interested in waiting to be told to fly a particular plane in a particular fashion in a particular place at a particular time.

What he said.

Imagine, OP that the head muckety-muck of your team decides that your job is to patrol some backwater base in a D3A all night or running supply drops?   No way this can work in the MA.  Would you pay $15 bucks a month for that?  Even if you paid for my account, I would quit the game if it became a war simulation. 

Real war is boring.  At least, until you are about to be killed.
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Bruv119 on October 10, 2015, 02:14:30 AM
not sure whether this is a well thought out troll or a genuine request.  Scenarios kind of deliver on some of the things you speak of but I would amend your perfect triangle with reality.


 
:airplane: :cheers: :cheers:  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
:old:  :old: :old: :old: :old:  :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead   :noid  :noid :noid  :noid :noid
 :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick:   :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick: :joystick:
 :ahand :ahand :ahand :ahand :ahand :ahand hack insults    :furious :furious :furious :furious :furious :furious :furious :furious :furious :furious logs off
 :banana: :banana: :banana:  :D :D    :airplane:
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: pembquist on October 10, 2015, 11:39:19 AM
First of all, everyone would be in a squad, no lone wolfs.  Second, every squad would run organized missions only, no upping solo or scattered (unless you are going to rendezvous with your squad or unit). 

I just re-read and realized this is the broken part.
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Lucifer on October 10, 2015, 01:19:56 PM
I agree : Adding an High Command with limited slots ofc and advanced game capabilities for this HC to organise war would add realism and a lot of fun !  :rock
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: guncrasher on October 10, 2015, 02:04:33 PM
we are not fighting a war.  we just playing a game.  I participate in fso and it's always 40  to 60 minutes of just flying around followed by 2 or 3 minutes of intense combat.  I wouldnt do it in the ma.  I enjoy fso and scenarios, but I would quit if it was like this every time I log in.


semp
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: N95KF on October 10, 2015, 03:36:08 PM
You could break away from high command and run solo too.  There would be little incentive to do so, but you could.  Look at Battlefield's layout.  They made it happen in their public servers.  Its not as organized as it was designed to be, but you do respawn after a death, and still meet up with your squadmates.  Every squad just has different objectives, and those objectives are given to each squad by a commander.  That's all.  Whether you follow it or not is up to you, but in Battlefield's case it has worked well, and is why the game is successful.  Just a thought  :salute
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: ImADot on October 10, 2015, 04:58:45 PM
You could break away from high command and run solo too.

Every squad just has different objectives, and those objectives are given to each squad by a commander.

Whether you follow it or not is up to you

So what is the point of asking HTC to change the fundamental design of the game, if all we'd have to do is ignore you anyway? I have a strong feeling the vast majority of players will simply opt to ignore the chain of command and continue to do their own thing.
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: kvuo75 on October 10, 2015, 05:28:11 PM
in Battlefield's case it has worked well, and is why the game is successful.

then play that game.. why make this one like that one?


i can tell you i'd quit altogether if i was forced to be in a squad. i was in a squad for a long time. I was a co of a squad. i was cic during a fso, etc. etc. i simply can't stand structured play anymore.. fso was an incredible bore 99% of the time.

if the ma was like fso, wow.. i cant think of a better way to ruin this game.


Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Lucifer on October 10, 2015, 07:39:16 PM
then play that game.. why make this one like that one?

I may be wrong, but i think OP is trying to help the game getting more subscribers, thus more players in sky, thus even cooler dogfights with
this thread.

Answering him "go back to ur game then" isnt a cool way to talk to a new customer (aug2015 for OP apparently),
 and certainly not the good one to attract new players into AH, Kavuo... :frown:

<S>
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: kvuo75 on October 10, 2015, 09:05:50 PM
I may be wrong, but i think OP is trying to help the game getting more subscribers, thus more players in sky, thus even cooler dogfights with
this thread.

Answering him "go back to ur game then" isnt a cool way to talk to a new customer (aug2015 for OP apparently),
 and certainly not the good one to attract new players into AH, Kavuo... :frown:

<S>

i know personally, when i'm new to a well established niche game/genre, the first thing i do is find their bbs and recommend changing their entire system of gameplay..  :aok

 :rofl



Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Oldman731 on October 10, 2015, 09:05:55 PM
I may be wrong, but i think OP is trying to help the game getting more subscribers, thus more players in sky, thus even cooler dogfights with
this thread.

Answering him "go back to ur game then" isnt a cool way to talk to a new customer (aug2015 for OP apparently),
 and certainly not the good one to attract new players into AH, Kavuo...


Agreed.

That said, there really are a lot of players who just wish to log on for an hour and dogfight.  Please don't forget us.

- oldman
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: FLOOB on October 11, 2015, 04:17:37 AM
Quote
How was the game designed to be played, what was their vision?


Aces High is basically a modernized version of Air Warrior. Which was also a three country dogfighting sim with base capture and no aspirations to be a flight simulator or a war game.
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Meatwad on October 11, 2015, 05:44:52 PM
No, No, and NO

That is what threw WW2OL into the crapper. Never want to see that again EVER
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Squire on October 11, 2015, 05:48:28 PM
Come fly Friday Squad Ops.
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Chilli on October 12, 2015, 12:37:56 PM
David Whales  :huh  (inside joke --bad humor)

You sir would do well with such discussion in most any of the Special Events forums:  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?board=15.0 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?board=15.0)

FSO (Friday Squad Operations) http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?board=60.0 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?board=60.0) is where you will see the most opportunity due to the frequency of the events schedule.

FSO faq http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,147070.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,147070.0.html)
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Bino on October 12, 2015, 04:44:31 PM
Organized, goal-oriented play already exists in FSO and the big Scenarios.

For me, personally, the MA is simply a place to practice for the Events. (http://www.ahevents.org/)
Title: Re: Implementing a Hierarchy, Chain of Command, and Rank Structure
Post by: Zoney on October 12, 2015, 05:05:02 PM
^THIS^