General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Phoenix3107 on October 30, 2015, 10:13:20 AM
Title: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Phoenix3107 on October 30, 2015, 10:13:20 AM
This might have been answered before but I'll ask it anyways.
Which planes during WW2 were considered the shining stars of their country, in realistic and overall performance from their role(s)? Like for instance, say the U.S. P-51D, or the Supermarine Spit., Bf-109F....I'd like to know what you guys think.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on October 30, 2015, 10:58:07 AM
There is no answer to that question, it all depend on what role you want the plane to fill.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: FESS67 on October 30, 2015, 11:14:44 AM
I agree with Zimme,
For years we have heard that the P51 was the ultimate fighter - and I love it. However, pretty easy to be on that perch when you outnumber people 10:1
To answer your question in the spirit it was asked. My pick is the ME 109. In its many variants it lasted for many years and performed well.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on October 30, 2015, 11:30:35 AM
P-51 wasnt that awesome, it had the range to go to Berlin and back and thats why it was the No 1 USAAF fighter. It was not bad in any way but in terms of performance planes like the K-4 and Spit XIV were at least as good as the pony. But unless we talk about WWI the performance of the plane is only a small part of it. Factors like Tactic, training, quantity, support systems etc is far more vital than raw performance of the fighters.
But if I would pick the best design I would take the spit. It was one of the first "modern" prop fighters and despite being designed in mid 30:s the structure allowed the spit to evolve and remain an outstanding fighter even beyond WW2. The 109 was a great fighter until the end but suffered more than the spit from the increased weight.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: FLS on October 30, 2015, 11:39:49 AM
This might have been answered before but I'll ask it anyways.
Which planes during WW2 were considered the shining stars of their country, in realistic and overall performance from their role(s)? Like for instance, say the U.S. P-51D, or the Supermarine Spit., Bf-109F....I'd like to know what you guys think.
Generally every country's latest fighter is their best. It may not be the best for your style of AH gameplay.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on October 30, 2015, 12:57:21 PM
I'd say the 109 as well, if only for all the aces it made and that it shot down more planes than any other aircraft in history.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on October 30, 2015, 02:05:43 PM
I'd say the 109 as well, if only for all the aces it made and that it shot down more planes than any other aircraft in history.
that has very little to do with the performance of the 109. Again that is a result of the imbalance in quality of the German and Russian pilots during most of the war. Against better trained Allied pilots over Germany the k/d ratio for the 109 was horrible. Not because the 109 was inferior but because the pilots were. Combat record tells a very small part of the story. If combat record was the most significant my vote goes to the B-239...
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Gman on October 30, 2015, 02:10:59 PM
Hard to argue against the 109, it sure was a brilliant design considering it lasted from before the war until after it, or at the very least it was the most improvable design of the war. Galland said that it was in his opinion the best accelerating fighter in nearly every stage of warfare throughout the years, and that acceleration was one of the most important features to him in terms of combat. Very subjective discussion, and I agree that depending on the mission and purpose, the answer could be argued to be a wide variety of platforms.
I do think that the last two years produced fighters that would have absolutely demolished anything from the previous years. Imagine the BoB with Fw190Ds or 109Ks, and so on. In just a few short years the capability of the front line fighters increased at a rate we'll never see again, in all metrics, be it speed, armament, range, ease of use.
One thing that's always stuck with me was Osprey's book on the 190s, and accounts in it from most of the pilots who switched to the 190 from the 109 and other fighters said it was like jumping forward in time, and I can understand that based on their descriptions of the very advanced features it had making the fighter pilot's job easier. In terms of the most modernized fighter, IMO the 190 could probably take it.
Strong case for the Mustang as well, regardless of whatever numerical advantages it had, it's mission was harder than the defenders by definition IMO - having to fly a long way into enemy territory and wrestle air superiority from a foe over his own territory is no easy task, and it was the first fighter in history to really do it.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: BaldEagl on October 30, 2015, 04:08:38 PM
I'd have to go with the Spitfire which isn't unusual given it's always been my favorite.
First flown in 1936 it remained operational from August 1938 until April, 1954 finally being retired from the Irish Air Corp in 1961.
It served in nearly every theater of combat in WWII including both the Eastern and Western fronts, The Mediterranean, Burma and Australia being used by 37 countries.
It was Britain's first high speed photo reconnaissance aircraft and, in it's Seafire configuration was aircraft carrier worthy.
Like it's contemporary, the Bf-109, the Spitfire was adapted throughout the war to produce ever greater speeds, however, the engine configurations available allowed it to be adapted to a wider variety of roles.
And, while the Hurricane was the workhorse in the battle of Britain, the Spitfire is largely credited with winning the battle due to it's much higher kill per loss ratio.
It is truly a legendary aircraft the retains a very special place in aviation history.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Oldman731 on October 30, 2015, 04:16:22 PM
Which planes during WW2 were considered the shining stars of their country, in realistic and overall performance from their role(s)?
Yikes.
As others have said, in terms of raw performance, just pick whatever the most recent plane each country fielded at the end of the war. For Brits I imagine that would be the Tempest, for the US the F4U-4, you get the idea.
In terms of actual effect on the war, for fighters, I'd go with this:
US: F4F Wildcat, P-38 and F6F Hellcat in the Pacific. P47 and P-51B in the ETO.
England: Spitfire.
Germany: 109.
Japan: Zeke.
USSR: Actually, I have no idea here.
Italy: This is not a real question for Italy.
- oldman
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on October 30, 2015, 04:25:15 PM
The potential of develop the spit in terms of armament etc was greater than the 109. The main reason the 109 were in production the entire war was that its successor(s) failed. In -44/-45 there wasnt much options for the Germans but to increase the engine power on the 109 and build them as fast as they could. The spit had better potential of development, it was not just the engine that was upgraded.
But regardless of personal favorites, the contest is between the 109 and the Spitfire. They were the first and pretty much also the last of the latest generation of prop fighters.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Gman on October 30, 2015, 04:28:40 PM
Good points all round. I was going to get into the Spit as well, and agree that it's more or less the 109 equivalent for the British and various Allies. My grandfather worked on them in the war in various places, mainly doing radio/electrics stuff.
I just went and was re reading the Osprey 190 book (excellent btw, and I have a copy I can lend through email if anyone wishes to peruse it), and it specifically mentioned the Spitfire as well, and how well it lent itself to upgradability as the 109 did. Looking at the BoB models, then the Griffin powered 1944/45 models - incredible. Even the leap to the Spit 9 at the time was a huge surge ahead in capability for the RAF/Etc, when the 190s at the time were far ahead of the Spit 5 and whatnot.
EDIT- I would be interested to hear others take on the best Soviet fighter of the war. Very interesting subject there, many good ones to choose from, not the least of which wasn't even really a fighter, but a CAS/attack plane.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on October 30, 2015, 04:41:34 PM
Soviet LW fighters, although very good planes, was imo not as good designs as comparable western/German fighters. Poor armament and gun sights, use of wooden parts, lack of superchargers etc made them less capable. SwAF for ex flew ponys and Spit XIX on PR missions over soviet union in the late 40s and La-7/9:s had no chance of intercept them. Later Russian designs were good for the need that the russians had but in terms of aircraft design they were nothing remarkable.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Karnak on October 30, 2015, 06:11:50 PM
Mosquito was the best plane of the war. Or the F4U. I am frequently torn between those two.
Breaking it down by country:
France: D.520
Germany: Bf109, Fw190, Ju88 and decendants
Italy: C.20x
Japan: A6M, Ki-84
USA: B-17, B-24, P-47, F4U, F6F
UK: Lancaster, Mosquito, Spitfire
USSR: Il-2, La-5FN/7, Yak-3/9
About the Bf109, remember that while it shot down more aircraft than any other in history, it was also shot down more than any other in history as well.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on October 30, 2015, 06:59:15 PM
I think that dubious honor goes to the Il-2.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Karnak on October 30, 2015, 07:12:50 PM
Maybe, maybe not. About the same production, would not be at all surprised if there were more Il-2s still functional at the end of the war.
That said, it is possible that the stat I recalled was specific to aircraft most shot down by other aircraft, and that would unquestionably be the Bf109. Many, perhaps more than half, Il-2s were downed by AA fire.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Saxman on October 30, 2015, 07:43:32 PM
Quote
Which planes during WW2 were considered the shining stars of their country
For the US it's really hard to argue against the F4U series. The F4U-4 met or exceeded the P-51 in raw performance in most every category but range. The series in general DID out-range most P-47 variants, are often placed on equal terms with it in terms of durability, and outperformed the Jug at most altitudes below 20,000 feet. The airframe itself demonstrated the capability to SIGNIFICANTLY out-haul most single-engine propeller-driven fighter and attack planes prior to the arrival of the AD Skyraider (I've seen figures ranging anywhere from 6000-8000lbs of ordinance for the AU-1). Designed in 1938, first flown in 1940, and flew her last combat mission in 1969 (downing a Mustang, of all planes), outlasting the Hellcat in active service.
She had her teething problems, but so did the vaunted Mustang. Although certainly outperformed by later designs like the F7F and F8F, by the time they arrived the era of the piston-engine naval fighter was already drawing to a close.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Phoenix3107 on October 30, 2015, 07:58:52 PM
About the Bf109, remember that while it shot down more aircraft than any other in history, it was also shot down more than any other in history as well.
That's an ironically heavy reputation for one such a fighter. To be on the recieving end as well as the giving one too. :D
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on October 30, 2015, 08:36:54 PM
I'm fairly confident it is the Il-2 since it was no longer in production by war's end (production switched to the Il-10 in 1944) and the 109's production figure, already 2000 units short of the Il-2, includes post war production. There are fewer surviving Il-2s around than 109s.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: bozon on October 31, 2015, 03:31:18 AM
Mosquito, period.
Best bomber of the war, best night fighter, best photo-recce - all in one basic design, which made it also the best multi-role aircraft of the war. Eventually also the first twin-engine carrier plane and evolved into one of the best piston day-fighter planes (Hornet).
Ground breaking concept - check. Inovative design - check. Most efficient use of resources in its construction - check. So radical that almost no one believed it would work and then were stunned when it exceeded every expectation - check. Impressed the enemy so much that Goering was obssed by it and they tried to copy the design - check. So influential that it forever changed the design of bombers - check. The poster-boy of a sucesful multi-role fighter/bomber till today - check.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on October 31, 2015, 03:42:54 AM
If we're arguing on a pure performance based criteria then can there be anything more worthy of the title than these two? If the Mosquito 'forever changed the design of bombers' these two made every other aircraft obsolete, Mosquito included. These two did not merely show the way to the future, they were the first steps into that future.
For the US it's really hard to argue against the F4U series. The F4U-4 met or exceeded the P-51 in raw performance in most every category but range. The series in general DID out-range most P-47 variants, are often placed on equal terms with it in terms of durability, and outperformed the Jug at most altitudes below 20,000 feet. The airframe itself demonstrated the capability to SIGNIFICANTLY out-haul most single-engine propeller-driven fighter and attack planes prior to the arrival of the AD Skyraider (I've seen figures ranging anywhere from 6000-8000lbs of ordinance for the AU-1). Designed in 1938, first flown in 1940, and flew her last combat mission in 1969 (downing a Mustang, of all planes), outlasting the Hellcat in active service.
She had her teething problems, but so did the vaunted Mustang. Although certainly outperformed by later designs like the F7F and F8F, by the time they arrived the era of the piston-engine naval fighter was already drawing to a close.
I second this.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: JVboob on October 31, 2015, 09:03:07 PM
I disagree with the P51 for the US.
The P38 was in service the entirity of the war and 3 of the top 5 aces the US produced were 38 pilots. It filled every role a land based fighter could fill. It along with the Mossie were the two most versitile a/c of the war (IMO). The 38 did struggle in the ETO compaired to other allied a/c in the 38s defence I saw combat with the LW unlike the pony that faught the last of the pilots the LW could muster, but none the less it did its job and still produced aces and had a large impact on the war. In the PTO Id say it accomplished more than the F6F due to the F6F coming after the IJN/IJAAF had lost its best pilots. Had it come sooner the F6F might have proven its self against the might of Japanses airpower. Just my opinion on the USAs a/c
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Oldman731 on October 31, 2015, 10:52:26 PM
The P38 was in service the entirity of the war and 3 of the top 5 aces the US produced were 38 pilots. It filled every role a land based fighter could fill. It along with the Mossie were the two most versitile a/c of the war (IMO). The 38 did struggle in the ETO compaired to other allied a/c in the 38s defence I saw combat with the LW unlike the pony that faught the last of the pilots the LW could muster, but none the less it did its job and still produced aces and had a large impact on the war. In the PTO Id say it accomplished more than the F6F due to the F6F coming after the IJN/IJAAF had lost its best pilots. Had it come sooner the F6F might have proven its self against the might of Japanses airpower. Just my opinion on the USAs a/c
In the PTO, the F6F was the most significant Fighter by far. The p38 had a good contribution and operated in other theatres, but in the PTO was not even close to the F6F - there was no substitute to being carrier bourne. Also, the F6F entered combat on September 1943 and the Japanese pilots were still good even though some have been removed from the roster by WildCats. The P38 started to see significant action in the PTO only from early 1943, only about 6 months before the F6F and with much lower intensity since it was far from the action. The P38 is not the plane that killed the IJN aces.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: MiloMorai on November 01, 2015, 07:45:23 AM
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 01, 2015, 11:42:33 AM
The C-47/DC-3 is among the greatest aircraft EVER built. Certainly in the top 5 of any aviation historians list. After 75 years this plane is still in service. None of the aircraft mentioned above can even come close. It's not even a contest.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: BuckShot on November 01, 2015, 02:25:35 PM
B-29
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Widewing on November 01, 2015, 03:18:04 PM
If we're talking about all aircraft, it gets really tough to pick just one. You can't, really. You'd have to break it into categories.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 01, 2015, 04:00:53 PM
If we're talking about all aircraft, it gets really tough to pick just one. You can't, really. You'd have to break it into categories.
Topic is best planes of WWII. There was no criteria other than that which I saw. So my answer is the C-47. Far and away did more for the war effort than any other plane. Was used by every Allied nation in every single part of the world doing the real work of any large scale war. The existence of the Goon and its versatility probably shortend the war by a year or more.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Karnak on November 01, 2015, 04:46:28 PM
Topic is best planes of WWII. There was no criteria other than that which I saw. So my answer is the C-47. Far and away did more for the war effort than any other plane. Was used by every Allied nation in every single part of the world doing the real work of any large scale war. The existence of the Goon and its versatility probably shortend the war by a year or more.
The Japanese had there own version of the C-47.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Widewing on November 01, 2015, 11:53:56 PM
Topic is best planes of WWII. There was no criteria other than that which I saw. So my answer is the C-47. Far and away did more for the war effort than any other plane. Was used by every Allied nation in every single part of the world doing the real work of any large scale war. The existence of the Goon and its versatility probably shortend the war by a year or more.
Not discounting the value of the C-47, but how does that make it the best? How long would the war have lasted if there was no B-29, No SBD, No P-51, no Hellcat or no B-24? The B-24 was very important to closing the Atlantic gap, pivotal to winning the Battle of the Atlantic. There were several critical aircraft that made a huge difference in the war. If there were no C-47, there was the C-46 and C-60. Versatile cargo aircraft were very important, but could not survive in a combat zone without complete air superiority. How does one gain that, with transports?
Best implies that it was superior to all others. Who is the best QB in the NFL? Who is the best starting pitcher in MLB? those can be more easily quantified, but still there will be no universal agreement. Want to argue most important? That's where the C-47 is a competitor.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: darkzking on November 02, 2015, 02:20:15 AM
The P39 was hands down the best plane of ww2
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 02, 2015, 05:26:04 AM
Except that it factually was. In service a week prior to the Me262.
It just wasn't and you'd be hard pressed to find any serious historian claiming it was. 616 Sqd. got their first Meteors on 12 July and started converting their pilots on it, which they had completed by the end of the month. For the next several months they went on to test the Meteor under operational conditions and develop operational tactics for the new jet. The exact same job EKdo 262 started four months earlier in April when they received their first 262s. By the time 616 Sqd, got their Meteors on July 12 the 262 was already being delivered to other units of the Luftwaffe like Kdo Schenk with trained pilots who had flown the jet for months. Even to bomber units like KG51 which got its first 262s in June with trained pilots arriving on July 10.
The ME 262 became operational in April 1944. The Meteor became operational in July 1944. Both spent several months exploring and developing operational tactics under heavy secrecy and were forbidden to engage the enemy. The Meteor was tested against the buzz bombs over Allied territory since they were unmanned and couldn't report any sightings of the top-secret Meteor. The 262 became a front line fighter in June/July 1944 scoring its first kill on July 26. In October 616 Sqd. was still developing operational tactics, now with the USAAF in joint exercises. In December 616 Sqd., still the only Meteor squadron in service retired their Meteor Is having never flown a single sortie against the Luftwaffe. In January 1945 four Meteor IIIs from 616 Sqd. were finally assigned to front line service with the 2nd TAF, half a year after the 262. The Meteor finished the war with no aerial victories.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Latrobe on November 02, 2015, 06:49:04 AM
Not discounting the value of the C-47, but how does that make it the best? How long would the war have lasted if there was no B-29, No SBD, No P-51, no Hellcat or no B-24? The B-24 was very important to closing the Atlantic gap, pivotal to winning the Battle of the Atlantic. There were several critical aircraft that made a huge difference in the war. If there were no C-47, there was the C-46 and C-60. Versatile cargo aircraft were very important, but could not survive in a combat zone without complete air superiority. How does one gain that, with transports?
Best implies that it was superior to all others. Who is the best QB in the NFL? Who is the best starting pitcher in MLB? those can be more easily quantified, but still there will be no universal agreement. Want to argue most important? That's where the C-47 is a competitor.
All true. However, war is largely a battle of logistics and without food, ammunition, personnel, and all manner of supplies. It doesn't matter if you have the best weapons if you can't supply them. The goon did the heavy lifting all the way into Vietnam where it became a gunship too. its versatility, rugged construction, and service life have made it a legend. A quarterback is useless without his center to hike the ball. A pitcher is just a scarecrow without a ball and a mitt. The DC-3 was the first aircraft to generate a profit for its owners without mail contracts. It still is used for its intended purpose to this day. Don't think any other aircraft can claim that. Until a few years ago, I believe a DC-3 held the record for the most flight hours on an airframe. Meaning it had spent more time in the air than any other aircraft in history. We can get into the nuances of a particular type of aircraft and their roles as dogfighters or bombers or their effect on future aviation but the lowley goon is the greatest aircraft of WWII IMO.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 02, 2015, 08:58:48 AM
And what made the Goon better than the myriad of other military transports in service at the time?
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: MiloMorai on November 02, 2015, 09:35:19 AM
And what made the Goon better than the myriad of other military transports in service at the time?
Over 10,000 built.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 02, 2015, 10:07:23 AM
So if they had built over 10,000 of another contemporary transport instead of the C-47 we would have lost the war? Say for example the Douglas DC-5/R3D.
So if they had built over 10,000 of another contemporary transport instead of the C-47 we would have lost the war? Say for example the Douglas DC-5/R3D.
There was even enough Tante Ju's to supply Stalingrad.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 02, 2015, 03:39:47 PM
And what made the Goon better than the myriad of other military transports in service at the time?
None of those transports are on the top 10 list of the greatest aircraft of all time. DC-3 usually shows up in the top 5 with planes like the SR-71.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 02, 2015, 04:21:06 PM
That's inconsequential. We're not discussing what was the best airliner of the 1930s. Nor are we discussing which nation had the greatest industrial base.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 03, 2015, 06:56:49 AM
That's inconsequential. We're not discussing what was the best airliner of the 1930s. Nor are we discussing which nation had the greatest industrial base.
Nope we're discussing the best planes of WWII. The C-47 falls easily within that category.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 03, 2015, 01:15:13 PM
Then I ask again: What was it best at compared to other military transports at the time?
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 03, 2015, 03:24:40 PM
Then I ask again: What was it best at compared to other military transports at the time?
Getting the job done. Very similar to the P-51. It wasn't the fastest or the most manuverable or the most rugged or the best armed or any of those things that define a great fighter. What it did was provide the range and enough of the combination of those attributes to get the job done. It had all of the intangibles that made it great. C-47 falls in the same category.
By the way, I've seen the bug in you signature line in person. The coolest part of it was the interior.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 03, 2015, 03:42:12 PM
The P-51 had enormous range and great speed for a single engine fighter. It was 'the best' long range escort fighter of the war. The Goony bird had no exceptional attributes at all except for being in civilian mass production before the war started. The Goon was not 'the best' military transport available. It was not 'the best' at anything, but it got the job done and was available in numbers at the right time, much like the JU 52 in Germany.
The Volksrod is awesome! A dream build.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Kazaa on November 03, 2015, 04:03:36 PM
Which ever plane Hartman is in.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 03, 2015, 07:01:34 PM
The P-51 had enormous range and great speed for a single engine fighter. It was 'the best' long range escort fighter of the war. The Goony bird had no exceptional attributes at all except for being in civilian mass production before the war started. The Goon was not 'the best' military transport available. It was not 'the best' at anything, but it got the job done and was available in numbers at the right time, much like the JU 52 in Germany.
The Volksrod is awesome! A dream build.
You win. One of the most legendary aircraft to ever take to the skies and is in every top ten list (usually in the top 5) of every serious list of aircraft in history and is still in service today doing what it was deigned to do has no place in this discussion because it's completely unremarkable. Got it.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 03, 2015, 07:24:52 PM
It obviously has a place in the discussion. I just wanted to know what qualities you think the Goon had that made it 'the best' plane of the war. I don't agree that the job the goon did made it the best when most transport planes at the time could have done the same job in its place.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 03, 2015, 07:28:28 PM
Oh and could you find one of those 'serious' top ten lists please. Thanks.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 04, 2015, 07:37:13 AM
My choice for the title of 'best military transport' would go to four aircraft.
First and foremost the ME 323 Gigant: The first 'roll-on-roll-off' cargo plane the ME 323 was very innovative and set the standard for military transports. The 323 directly led to other purpose built military transports like the C-123 (also initially designed as a glider) and the C-130. The Luftwaffe operated around 200 ME 323 with a combined payload capacity of a thousand Goons. It was a vital asset in the huge airlift of equipment across the Mediterranean supplying the Afrika Korps.
In the long range transport role I would place the following three aircraft as equal 'best planes' for their excellent range, payload and service to their countries.
The JU 290: Enabled direct communication between Germany and Japan via trans-Eurasian flights over the Soviet Union. Flying high and fast at night they were never intercepted by Soviet fighters. Was essential for transfer of technology, intelligence etc. Also had an innovative loading ramp design and was perhaps the best defended transport with turreted 20 mm cannons and machine guns.
A JU 290 at Stalingrad with its distinctive tail-lifting loading ramp deployed. (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FievuUpn0uI/VAeoZJ_V53I/AAAAAAABK98/L9jsE7JuoCU/s1600/Ju_290_2_Pitomnik.jpg)
The C-54 Skymaster: With similar speed and range as the JU 290 the C-54 enabled effective trans-Atlantic flights between the U.S. and the U.K. Vital for fast transfer of important personnel and and critical equipment. An interesting anecdote is that the first batch of 200 desperately needed dive-flaps kits for the P-38 was transported to England by a C-54. Similar in appearance to a FW 200 it was unfortunately shot down by the RAF in a friendly fire incident, destroying its precious cargo.
The H8K: An excellent flying boat that was a vital communication asset for Japan. With excellent range and payload capacity it was the lifeline to the Japanese Empire's far flung outposts.
Oh and could you find one of those 'serious' top ten lists please. Thanks.
Does google not work on your computer? Let me help you. In the search line type "Top 10 aircraft of all time." Make sure you note the source of those lists. It's up to you to decide if Plane and Pilot, AOPA, and others are 'serious'.
Common aircraft that show in those lists are...Wright Flyer, SR-71, ME262, P-51, Space Shuttle, Cessna 172, J-3 cub, and yes the DC-3/C-47.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 04, 2015, 08:50:58 AM
I have no way of knowing what you consider 'serious'.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on November 04, 2015, 09:14:26 AM
Worth mentioning is that the Dc-3 makes the list because of the impact it had on the civilian air transportation. It is a very good plane but it weren't faster, bigger etc than other transport aircrafts during WW2, The greatest asset was that it was available in great numbers and it did the job good enough so there wasn't any urgent need for a new transport aircraft.
But it's a tricky question with no clear answer. Quantity is quality as well but on the other hand, It had not helped the Axis if they had the C-47, it hadn't change the outcome in any way. C-47:s instead of Ju-52:s had not helped the Germans at Stalingrad in any significant way. For transport aircrafts is the rule: Good enough planes in sufficient numbers. But there are rarely any cutting edge technology involved in transport aircrafts. Just strip a B-17 or B-24 of the guns, remove bomb bay, add a cargo door and you have a transport aircraft just as good as the C-47.
But the C-47 should be among the candidates for sure, but imo it won't beat planes like the Spit or 109 as the "best" WW2 plane.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 04, 2015, 09:59:01 AM
There's no substitute for the right tool. You can use a sledge hammer to drive a nail but it's not necessarily the right tool for the job. Both the P-51 and the C-47 fall into that category. The right tool delivered at the right time. There were better fighters than the P-51 and there are better cargo aircraft than the Goon. But they both did their intended job (arguably of course) better than any other.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 04, 2015, 10:10:57 AM
Then I ask again: How did the Goon do 'the job' better than any other? What makes it 'the best'?
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 04, 2015, 12:09:30 PM
Then I ask again: How did the Goon do 'the job' better than any other? What makes it 'the best'?
Sigh...everything. It was efficient, extremely rugged, adaptable, dependable, had good range, excellent short field and unimproved field capabilities, easy to maintain, good flying qualities, pretty manuverable, and could do all of it while hauling a load. It didn't just do one thing, it did everything and did it well. The only other "C" plane that is in its class is the C-130 which is also not the biggest, fastest, uberest plane to ever take to the sky but has the record to prove that it is among the best aircraft ever fielded.
Also, the lowley VW Beetle, one of the greatest cars ever produced. Also not the biggest, fastest, uberest ever built but, none the less, among the greatest cars in history. By all rights it should've never survived the ashes of post war Germany. But it did and is probably the most recognized car on earth.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Ack-Ack on November 04, 2015, 12:25:04 PM
The P38 started to see significant action in the PTO only from early 1943, only about 6 months before the F6F and with much lower intensity since it was far from the action. The P38 is not the plane that killed the IJN aces.
The P-38 was not far from the action at all, it was in the thick of it in the SWPA. It was the dominant USAAF plane in the PTO.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on November 04, 2015, 12:37:50 PM
A big issue with the debate is that is that it is too much about who won, Win the war =/= better planes. The allied did not won the war because they had better planes/tanks/etc. They won because they had a much larger capacity to build them. Combat record has very little to to with how the plane itself was. If it were all about combat record the B-239 outclass the opposition...
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 04, 2015, 01:24:22 PM
A big issue with the debate is that is that it is too much about who won, Win the war =/= better planes.
Not as much as you might think. The Germans, for the most part, had the best stuff all around. The greatest fighter to come out of the war was the 262. It was a war changing machine but came too little too late.
The engineers and test pilots at Grumman tested a sample of all the aircraft available in the ETO at the time while making design considerations for the next airplane to take over for the Hellcat. This included most of the available British, German, and American fighters. The two airplanes they were most impressed with were the 190 and the Jug. The liked the 51 and spit but decided both were essentially too fragile to be balanced war machines (probably because of radiators). Especially for the Navy. The resulting design based on what they learned was the Bearcat. Which pretty much represented the pinnacle of piston fighter design for Grumman.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: BaldEagl on November 04, 2015, 01:51:27 PM
Well, this thread went downhill fast.
First of all LilMak jumps in with a suggestion create divisiveness and derail the thread. I'm sure he'll say it was his legitimate choice but the OP asked for each countries "shining star". The C-47? Really? That's the best the US had to offer? So why didn't we forsake all else in favor of C-47 production?
Furthermore the OP goes on to list an international list of fighter aircraft. While he didn't specifically ask for fighter aircraft only that was clearly his intent. More evidence of LilMak's intentional derailing of the thread.
Then WaffenVW, an obvious Luft fan, keeps fanning the flames.
Anyway, thanks boys for derailing what started out as a good thread that's now no longer worth the pixels it's written on to read.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: glzsqd on November 04, 2015, 02:30:04 PM
I would have to say the F6F as much as it pains me(F4U lover).
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: darkzking on November 04, 2015, 02:47:13 PM
p39 or the p63 :cool:
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 04, 2015, 02:56:21 PM
I don't think this thread has been derailed at all, and everyone is behaving within acceptable limits imho. Me a Luft fan??? Whatever gave you that idea? :cheers:
LilMak, I can't agree with you on those qualifiers simply because any number of WWII transport planes share those in equal measure. The DC-3 was an iconic aircraft and one of the best airliners of the 1930s (perhaps the best). However its prolific post-war career and longevity was a result of the market being flooded by cheap surplus C-47s, not because it was better or even on par with 1940s and 1950s aircraft. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on November 04, 2015, 03:39:37 PM
No 1 rule in this debate: This question has no right answer, it is all about personal opinions.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 04, 2015, 06:22:47 PM
First of all LilMak jumps in with a suggestion create divisiveness and derail the thread. I'm sure he'll say it was his legitimate choice but the OP asked for each countries "shining star". The C-47? Really? That's the best the US had to offer? So why didn't we forsake all else in favor of C-47 production?
Furthermore the OP goes on to list an international list of fighter aircraft. While he didn't specifically ask for fighter aircraft only that was clearly his intent. More evidence of LilMak's intentional derailing of the thread.
Then WaffenVW, an obvious Luft fan, keeps fanning the flames.
Anyway, thanks boys for derailing what started out as a good thread that's now no longer worth the pixels it's written on to read.
The OP said this... "This might have been answered before but I'll ask it anyways.
Which planes during WW2 were considered the shining stars of their country, in realistic and overall performance from their role(s)?"
The title of the thread is "Best planes of WWII" No where did it say fighter, bomber, liaison, cargo or anything specific. The C-47's ROLE was to move stuff. It PERFORMED that ROLE exceptionally.
I respect your opinion but perhaps, before you accuse me of dearailing a thread by giving my honest opinion and essentially calling me a troll, you should practice your reading comprehension. Just because my OPINION doesn't conform to what you think it should doesn't make it wrong. The only one derailing this thread is you.
There is exactly ONE cargo aircraft modeled in AH. Mabey because it's the measuring stick by which every other is compared and the picture that comes into everyone's head when they think of WWII cargo aircraft/airborne operations/glider towing/or flying the hump. Or maybe because the perfomance numbers were easy to obtain and that's why.
This thread could go on for eons and never come to a consensus. I'm OK with that. VW at least challenged my stance and I have not convinced him. I'm cool with that too.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: pembquist on November 04, 2015, 07:02:56 PM
Mosquito
Pony
ILLAYAKadoodle
Zero
262
205
Pzlp
The French one that begins with a D
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: drgondog on November 06, 2015, 11:10:08 AM
Best for what?
I'm inclined to agree that the C-47 was one of, if not the most important tactical aircraft in WWII. It is still in service, it is still super easy to fly and maintain, it can land just about anywhere and it was the backbone of tactical ground logistics and supply - plus medevac - plus airborne infantry operations.
Considering fighters? I would tend to think along the lines of point interceptor-but lacking footprint; best air superiority fighter with large footprint; best fleet/land all around capability.
I lean toward the P-51B/C as it was the fighter that permitted USSAFE the ability to conduct truly strategic operations that had been stopped in fall 1943 because the 8th AF could not defeat the LW nor destroy critical industry un-escorted to deepest targets. Given Only one choice for a fighter aircraft for AAF to perform all missions, the 51B/C/D/K would have been the choice - and was, Post VE Day. Extreme range combined with excellent performance envelope (better, as good, nearly as good in all dimensions as any other piston engine fighter in WWII), low cost, producible, easy to train, low cost to operate.
Someone above made a comment that it did pretty well with "10:1" advantage. It, in fact, operated from December 1, 1943 through May, 1944 at a decided Disadvantage in numerical superiority as the few groups were diluted further by the necessity of performing target escort for 30-35 BG attacking distributed targets - enabling the LW to achieve numerical superiority at any point of attack.
The late model Spits could easily out-turn the B/D and outclimb them also, the 109K could outclimb and marginally out run it, the 262 was far superior in speed - but none of them could operate deep in the other's territory and do all things well at the extreme combat radius of a Mustang. This is the primary reason Gunther Rall thought the P-51 was Allies best fighter.
The Joint Fighter Conference - Patuxent River Oct 1944 when RAF, AAF, USMC, USN and Civilian pilots evaluated the P-51, P-38, P-47, P-63, F6F, F4U, Spit IX, XF8F voted the P-51D as the "Best Fighter below 25,000 feet" and the P-47D as "Best above 25,000 feet". One can only speculate what the outcome would have been had the Axis powers competed at the Conference.
Best Bomber - B-29 but most Important is up to debate because the Mossie, Ju 88, B-17, B-24 and Lancaster all have solid reasons for the nomination.
Best Trainer - AT-6 although it would be a handful for Primary cadets.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: save on November 07, 2015, 07:26:54 PM
Best bomber killer, the FW190A8R2, Sturmbock, very resistant to .50 fire from front arc. Nightfighter with most kills : Bf110G, one pilot had 121 kills in 110's.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: -aper- on November 10, 2015, 04:48:45 PM
3) should be very easy to fly (including take off / landing / combat maneuvering)
Yak-3 is by far the best by these criteria.
Booo!
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on November 10, 2015, 09:57:14 PM
I disagree, Yak-3 was a good fighter yes. But also had issues with reliability. When it entered service in 1944 there was several fighters in service with similar or better performance. Using plywood to make the plane cheaper and easier to build isnt that impressive either.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: -aper- on November 11, 2015, 05:04:39 PM
Using plywood to make the plane cheaper and easier to build isnt that impressive either.
During total war it is quite important to use wisely strategic materials (like aluminium)considering increasing production of planes from year to year. Utilizing wood is an excellent solution. The other good examples are La-7 and Mosquito.
On the other hand total war requires big number of new pilots to be trained quickly and thrown into combat on regular basis. Yak-3 was still quite outstanding plane for this role as it was very forgiving and easy to fly and very agile in combat maneuvering. It gave the best chances for young pilots to survive their fist sorties until they developed good enough ACM.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: save on November 12, 2015, 12:57:49 AM
Mosquito took way too many man-hours to build.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 12, 2015, 09:38:16 AM
While its handling may have been forgiving Soviet aircraft had far too high cockpit workloads to be anything like noob friendly. Just about everything needed manual operation and adjustment.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Karnak on November 12, 2015, 10:14:30 PM
Yes, but the difference is which men. Mosquitoes kept a lot of carpenter furniture and piano makers busy. I know that many grand pianos were destroyed in the blitz and needed replacement, but come on...
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on November 13, 2015, 07:59:22 AM
de Havilland was an aircraft manufacturer so the Mossie still took up a lot of production capacity. It wasnt build by the local carpenters...
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: bozon on November 13, 2015, 09:15:08 AM
de Havilland was an aircraft manufacturer so the Mossie still took up a lot of production capacity. It wasnt build by the local carpenters...
It is about which skilled laborers DH hired and the raw materials required. DH hired wood workers, not metal workers - these are not the same people and there was much less demand in the market for the formers. Britain had a shortage in metals that was significant while the battle for the Atlantic was in progress. Finally, hundreds of small companies and workshops were sun-contracted to manufacture the parts, which were then assembled in the DH factory at Hatfield. Many of these sub-contractors were furniture and piano makers. This pool of resources and manpower was almost entirely outside the resources lists of other aircraft and weapons manufacturers.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: MiloMorai on November 13, 2015, 09:28:42 AM
de Havilland was an aircraft manufacturer so the Mossie still took up a lot of production capacity. It wasnt build by the local carpenters...
Women helped build the Mosquito.
(http://www.n5490.org/Pilots/Bill%20Grace/20.jpg)
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on November 13, 2015, 09:36:45 AM
A lot of manufacturers had female workers so I dont see why its relevant. Mosquito wasnt the only wooden plane around during WW2 either. It was a very good plane but the design still had some serious drawbacks that were shown when it was used in the far East for ex.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: FLOOB on November 13, 2015, 09:39:20 AM
A lot of manufacturers had female workers so I dont see why its relevant. Mosquito wasnt the only wooden plane around during WW2 either. It was a very good plane but the design still had some serious drawbacks that were shown when it was used in the far East for ex.
That FE problem was fixed.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: bozon on November 13, 2015, 11:57:56 AM
A lot of manufacturers had female workers so I dont see why its relevant. Mosquito wasnt the only wooden plane around during WW2.
No it wasn't. However, the construction of the mossie and DH technology were pretty unique. Planes at that time incorporated wooden parts into a metal construction. Very few, if any major designs had that many wooden parts, including things like the main wing spar and a thick wooden skin - usually they had wood frames covered by fabric, like the Hurricane for example and control surfaces of other planes.
That kind of construction was considered obsolete already by 1939, which is one reason the air ministry thought DH was crazy.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Zimme83 on November 13, 2015, 01:02:58 PM
The design still had some serious issues when it come to weather resistance. SwAF for ex lost a lot of their Mossies and concluded that they simply were not able to withstand the climate.
The all wood construction was the main reason that the Mosquito was allowed into production at all. And despite the fact that the plane performed very well, all wood constructions was a dead end for high performance planes.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Karnak on November 13, 2015, 04:40:44 PM
The all wood construction was the main reason that the Mosquito was allowed into production at all. And despite the fact that the plane performed very well, all wood constructions was a dead end for high performance planes.
More realistically the Mosquito was a harbinger of the future in which aircraft would be built of composites. That the composites of the time were wood (birch and balsa mostly) rather than things like fiberglass, ceramics and carbon fiber is just down to technology of the day.
As to the manufacturing method, it allowed many very small firms to participate in the war effort where without the Mosquito they would not have been able to contribute at all. How efficient the design was for production, barring catastrophically inefficient construction which it did not have, is relatively irrelevant because of that as any efficiency was better than the 0 efficiency those workers would otherwise have been contributing.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: MiloMorai on November 13, 2015, 06:51:01 PM
The solution turned out to be two-part urea-formaldehyde glue, which de Havilland began using in the spring of 1943.
There was also drain holes drilled in places where water would collect.
Scotland is not known for nice weather and Mossies operated from bases there.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: Karnak on November 13, 2015, 07:41:53 PM
It wasn't the damp in the tropics, it was tropical microbiology eating the glue.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 17, 2015, 02:20:15 PM
LilMak
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 17, 2015, 04:30:39 PM
Waffen
I already built my warbird VW (https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/270957_10200579426200996_1361848233_n.jpg?oh=0f510ca98eadd5ed827084fd415c3c18&oe=56AC17CE) (https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/941209_10200579417520779_134438988_n.jpg?oh=322d97949f170061e5f72ceb419fb614&oe=56BB6577) (https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/183171_10200534016705787_1093504740_n.jpg?oh=78233305106c070a85f2059cb18ee1a3&oe=56B1C40C) (https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/t1.0-9/562984_10200428612670752_375403545_n.jpg?oh=6c9caf0244f8a9abb6eea7561490d619&oe=56AEF037) ...and sold it.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 17, 2015, 04:31:22 PM
Awesome! :aok
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 17, 2015, 04:35:24 PM
And the Gigant was a turd. A perfect example of bigger is not always better.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 17, 2015, 04:37:11 PM
And the airspeed indicator in my bug worked.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 17, 2015, 05:05:35 PM
If that's your opinion you're perfectly entitled to it, but I'm sure you'll forgive me if I say I don't hold much faith in it.
Well you can ignore my opinion all you want but that doesn't change the facts. The Gigant was tough and could haul a load but underpowered, difficult to fly, slow, had crap for range, could only haul a full load one way (unless they had ratos where it landed), and not built in large enough numbers to make much of a difference.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 18, 2015, 05:58:15 AM
Everything you just said is wrong or irrelevant, so yes I choose to ignore your opinion. :)
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: mbailey on November 18, 2015, 06:27:56 AM
I already built my warbird VW (https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/270957_10200579426200996_1361848233_n.jpg?oh=0f510ca98eadd5ed827084fd415c3c18&oe=56AC17CE) (https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/941209_10200579417520779_134438988_n.jpg?oh=322d97949f170061e5f72ceb419fb614&oe=56BB6577) (https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/183171_10200534016705787_1093504740_n.jpg?oh=78233305106c070a85f2059cb18ee1a3&oe=56B1C40C) (https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/t1.0-9/562984_10200428612670752_375403545_n.jpg?oh=6c9caf0244f8a9abb6eea7561490d619&oe=56AEF037) ...and sold it.
Squirrels for kill markings......damn near spit my coffee across the room... :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: LilMak on November 18, 2015, 10:23:56 AM
Everything you just said is wrong or irrelevant, so yes I choose to ignore your opinion. :)
Yet you continue to comment on my opinions and tell me I'm wrong without actually making any effort to prove your case. "Nuh-Uh" is not a valid arguement.
Title: Re: Best Planes of WWII
Post by: WaffenVW on November 18, 2015, 10:32:28 AM