General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kazaa on November 03, 2015, 08:50:42 AM
Title: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Kazaa on November 03, 2015, 08:50:42 AM
Hello everyone. :salute
I've been looking over some WW2 gun camera footage for a project which I'm currently doing and I noticed something peculiar about their behaviour. Even though films from this era are low resolution and highly damaged, it's apparent to see the tracer rounds deform in a way similar to an arrow would when fired from a bow (see 9:10 the below video).
Now I've never had the opportunity to fire a gun let alone witness the behaviour of a tracer round first hand, but my first thought is that maybe the vibration from the camera is causing this illusion?
Any resident historians or avid shooters have input to share on this particular subject?
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Delirium on November 03, 2015, 09:56:45 AM
As the material (phosphorus, magnesium) that causes the tracer round to be seen is burned off the weight of the round can change. This change in weight will also change the flight path of the round to some extent as well.
I don't see anything out of the ordinary, the flight path of the tracer rounds look to arc more than they should because the aircraft was pulling some G at the time of firing.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Kazaa on November 03, 2015, 10:20:32 AM
Ah.
That seems like a solid reason, Delirium!
Cheers, mate. :aok
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: 10thmd on November 03, 2015, 01:52:40 PM
It is also worth noting that the actual firing of the guns themselves causes Vibration which is what you are seeing. The camera is vibrating and causing the tracers to look that way. Look at footage taken from a ground fired M-2 .50cal machine gun you will notice that the tracers do not wobble like that.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Kazaa on November 03, 2015, 02:39:58 PM
@10thmd.
I have looked at a lot of footage filmed from the ground and the tracers do seem to be very much lazer like. My first thought was that the camera must be vibrating from the guns firing, which in turn caused the illusion of the tracers to bend in flight. As you said.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: WaffenVW on November 03, 2015, 03:13:09 PM
In real life you don't see a streak of light, but a dot like a flare, unless it's a smoking tracer. The streak effect on film comes from motion blur caused by the camera's shutter speed. The longer the exposure time the more the tracer moves and 'draws' a streak of light across the film. Add to this the vibrations of a thousand horsepower piston engine and propeller and you get some funky effects.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: FLS on November 03, 2015, 03:15:48 PM
Some of the vibration could be the wing in a high speed dive.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: 10thmd on November 03, 2015, 04:52:41 PM
I think it was Birds of Prey that did the tracers identical to the way old gun cams show them. I had to laugh when I saw tgat
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: JunkyII on November 03, 2015, 07:19:06 PM
In real life you don't see a streak of light, but a dot like a flare, unless it's a smoking tracer. The streak effect on film comes from motion blur caused by the camera's shutter speed. The longer the exposure time the more the tracer moves and 'draws' a streak of light across the film. Add to this the vibrations of a thousand horsepower piston engine and propeller and you get some funky effects.
This right here is the answer, Tracers look like a bottle rocket/Flare in person...the camera gives them the lazer look
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: branch37 on November 03, 2015, 07:29:28 PM
They look like they do in the films in IL-2 I know for sure. The only tracers I have ever fired were from a .223 in the river bottom at night, and others in this thread have nailed it. You see just a glowing dot, not a streak. The shaking you see in the films could also be from the recoil from the guns. My 25-06 has a pretty decent recoil, I cant imagine (6) .50s all firing at the same time. That thing had to shake like a dog passing a peach seed.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Kazaa on November 04, 2015, 06:32:59 AM
Thank you for your input: Waffen, JunkyII, Branch. :aok
I think every WW2 flight combat simulation I've played have been guilty of having their tracers show up as streaks in the sky. All this time I thought this was accurate. I need to get out more...
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: JunkyII on November 04, 2015, 10:42:55 AM
Thank you for your input: Waffen, JunkyII, Branch. :aok
I think every WW2 flight combat simulation I've played have been guilty of having their tracers show up as streaks in the sky. All this time I thought this was accurate. I need to get out more...
I personally think the lazer like tracers they use in video games help the overall gameplay, honestly I think if they tried to make them more life like, it would be almost annoying trying to figure out how to walk them in.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: EskimoJoe on November 04, 2015, 12:37:12 PM
A couple examples I can dig up.
https://youtu.be/eA5p18Piy8o
https://youtu.be/II7pzxJW9xU
They do and they don't look like lasers. In my experience, it really depends on the angle you see them at.
From behind the gun, to me it looks just like a second of light before it disappears, but watching others fire it's like small laser beams. I've never seen a tracer wobble like some gun cam footage, even after a ricochet. I attribute the wobble effect to the vibration of the guns firing paired with older cameras.
My two cents.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Kazaa on November 04, 2015, 03:38:24 PM
I personally think the lazer like tracers they use in video games help the overall gameplay, honestly I think if they tried to make them more life like, it would be almost annoying trying to figure out how to walk them in.
It could well be that developers are using film as research so they're just replicating what they're seeing.
You may well be right about longer trails being easier to walk onto the target. I'll have to test for myself.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Kazaa on November 04, 2015, 08:46:53 PM
I think it was Birds of Prey that did the tracers identical to the way old gun cams show them. I had to laugh when I saw tgat
It could be worse. At least they didn't add re-heat particles effect too planes which have jet engines... oh wait. :eek: :furious
I just added the camera effect illusion to my projectile model and I must say that it brought a smile to my face because it resembles my only reference material up to this point (film).
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Scca on November 11, 2015, 06:45:57 AM
They do and they don't look like lasers. In my experience, it really depends on the angle you see them at.
From behind the gun, to me it looks just like a second of light before it disappears, but watching others fire it's like small laser beams. I've never seen a tracer wobble like some gun cam footage, even after a ricochet. I attribute the wobble effect to the vibration of the guns firing paired with older cameras.
My two cents.
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
Those aren't tracers, now THIS is tracers :)
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: 38ruk on November 18, 2015, 03:48:00 PM
Shooting tracer ammo out of my M-14 is really hard to see looking down the sights IMHO. Al thou it wasnt complete darkness ( i could still make out my target ), people to the left and right said it looked great but i wasnt too impressed from behind the rifle. Then again my rate of fire is nill compared to any full auto weapon.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: JunkyII on November 18, 2015, 10:00:02 PM
After the line of tracers was out for some time, the line of small explosions, was that the self destruct for land based HE ammo?
I read that the 40mm shells which were fired from the bofors would do this at around 3-5sec(?) so it makes perfect sense that this technique would be used in an urban environment where collateral damage is to be kept at a minimum.
... and now to code this in to my model. :D
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: morfiend on December 02, 2015, 06:12:54 PM
I read that the 40mm shells which were fired from the bofors would do this at around 3-5sec(?) so it makes perfect sense that this technique would be used in an urban environment where collateral damage is to be kept at a minimum.
... and now to code this in to my model. :D
Does it mention the type of time delay? IIRC the Germans used a rotation delayed fuse. Not that it matters to your model,I was just curious how they got that 3-5 sec delay.
:salute
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Kazaa on December 02, 2015, 07:51:59 PM
I have no idea morfiend. Here's the information and source. I've yet to complete my research on the subject matter. The only value I need to know (at this point) is the delay before self detonating, which was easy enough to code into my model. I tell you what, it's absolutely bizarre to see AA rounds explode in mid flight.
"1) USA produced HE-SD ammunition was set to detonate at 4,000 - 5,000 yards (3,700 - 4,570 m) so as to minimize problems due to "friendly fire." HE and AP rounds that did not self-destruct were also manufactured."
Cool site. I just read the article on bullpup rifles. Thanks for posting.
It's a great site,I've lost a few days just read some of the info!
If you want to learn about guns and ammo it's a goto site for sure!
:salute
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: popeye on December 16, 2015, 11:04:29 AM
How did the lethality of tracer rounds compare to the other rounds (AP, API, HV, etc.) in the belt?
If I turn "tracers off" in the settings, is there some increase (or decrease) in total lethality? Provided, of course, that I could still hit something....
kong
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: bustr on December 16, 2015, 01:35:49 PM
In AH the tracer is a light show with no effect on the ballistics or damage points inflicted to your target on or off. You can see this in the offline drone circle by setting all 6 drones to the same fighter. Then fly once tracers on, then once off. Your damage and kill time will be the same in both conditions precluding your ability to aim unless you use the LCG gunnery aid to help.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: RODBUSTR on December 16, 2015, 04:24:34 PM
I DON'T KNOW IF ANYONE ADDRESSED BULLET DROP. A BULLET LIKE AN ARROW ONLY TRAVELS SO FAR BEFORE GRAVIFY STRARTS TO EFFECT FLIGHT PATH. THAT DISTANCE OF FLIGHT IS CALLED POINT BLANK. AFTER THAT AN ARC HAS TO BE ESTABLISHED TO HIT YOUR MARK. LIKE A BALL BEING THROWN.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Zoney on December 16, 2015, 04:35:57 PM
I DON'T KNOW IF ANYONE ADDRESSED BULLET DROP. A BULLET LIKE AN ARROW ONLY TRAVELS SO FAR BEFORE GRAVIFY STRARTS TO EFFECT FLIGHT PATH. THAT DISTANCE OF FLIGHT IS CALLED POINT BLANK. AFTER THAT AN ARC HAS TO BE ESTABLISHED TO HIT YOUR MARK. LIKE A BALL BEING THROWN.
Wow
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Charge on December 17, 2015, 04:52:48 AM
I ran into an interview of a luftwaffe pilot who had pretty vivid view of flying a 190D and the interviewer asked him about tracers and tracer colours. I recall that he did not remember any particular colours, just that they were dim streaks of light in certain intervals depending of the belting.
-C+
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: bustr on December 17, 2015, 02:55:08 PM
Cognizance of tracers was more pronounced with German AA gunners because they were taught to use the tracer stream to judge lead. Early gunsights were analog devices that a spotter would manualy move an elevation rod while the gunner sighted the tracers for lead. Eventually an optical sight with an analog controlled vertical lead line was introduced. German pilots were taught to rely on their ability to use the Revi reticle. I suspect with time and experience the totality of the sight picture is more important to a veteran of many air fights.
Depending on the use and time of day, Bordwaffenmunition had different intensities of tracer brightness. AA tracers had to be bright because they were used for lead estimation. I'm not sure if the other countries used this same distinction for their tracer rounds.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: FLS on December 17, 2015, 03:02:26 PM
I DON'T KNOW IF ANYONE ADDRESSED BULLET DROP. A BULLET LIKE AN ARROW ONLY TRAVELS SO FAR BEFORE GRAVIFY STRARTS TO EFFECT FLIGHT PATH. THAT DISTANCE OF FLIGHT IS CALLED POINT BLANK. AFTER THAT AN ARC HAS TO BE ESTABLISHED TO HIT YOUR MARK. LIKE A BALL BEING THROWN.
Gravity is part of the ballistic modeling as well as dispersion and air density correct for altitude.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: hitech on December 17, 2015, 04:07:33 PM
I would gauge that a 32.2 Krusties Zoney.
HiTech
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: morfiend on December 17, 2015, 05:59:09 PM
I DON'T KNOW IF ANYONE ADDRESSED BULLET DROP. A BULLET LIKE AN ARROW ONLY TRAVELS SO FAR BEFORE GRAVIFY STRARTS TO EFFECT FLIGHT PATH. THAT DISTANCE OF FLIGHT IS CALLED POINT BLANK. AFTER THAT AN ARC HAS TO BE ESTABLISHED TO HIT YOUR MARK. LIKE A BALL BEING THROWN.
X and Y axis are independent of each other. Bullet starts dropping as soon as it exits the barrel.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: 38ruk on December 18, 2015, 07:35:28 PM
X and Y axis are independent of each other. Bullet starts dropping as soon as it exits the barrel.
Yep , the only reason a bullet arc's is to meet your point of aim.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: Kazaa on December 24, 2015, 11:15:55 AM
I found that using the historically accurate 1 tracer per 5 rounds to be very effective method during testing. I wonder why HTC don't have this option because every round emitting a tracer can make the front view very busy in terms of particle effects.
I've always felt more comfortable with the tracers turned on. I always use the gun sight for the initial vector interception calculations of the target. All though I would use the tracers to make adjustments. My normal fire routine would be as follows:
Aim, quick squirt, check tracers, repeat.
Title: Re: Let's Talk Tracer Rounds
Post by: DaveBB on December 24, 2015, 01:26:36 PM
I always knew I was in for trouble when I found someone on my six and could hear hit pings but could not see any tracers. Usually the sign of a pro.