General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FESS67 on November 04, 2015, 08:19:11 AM
Title: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: FESS67 on November 04, 2015, 08:19:11 AM
I had a conversation today. A player announced that he had hit the fuel strats. I asked what did that achieve?
I was eventually met with some pretty spirited answers (that I should calm down as it was 6am...lol) well, it was 8pm my time so I am not sure what relevance that answer had.
Sooo, I said I would take it to the BBS. Thanks to ORICK for trying to explain in game but I still think I need to ask the question here.
I will be up front. I think you strat buffs are nothing but point potatos. You do it simply because it is an easy way to make points. Especially in an arena that has 100 bases and 30 players
However, my personal view aside. What is the effect of hitting the strats? How is the enemy hampered and how does that help us?
Example in point. Guy declares with pride that the enemy fuel strats are down. So what?
Are the enemy deprived of fuel?
If yes, what is the impact of that deprivation?
In my experience, I have never suffered from lack of fuel on take off. It is rare that I would take more than 50% fuel.
Despite the cranky (defensive) answers I got in game (it was 6am after all).....what is the 'real' gameplay impact of dropping the strats (I will open it up to all strats because IMO hitting fuel strats with 30 people in game is nothing but point grabbing)
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: The Fugitive on November 04, 2015, 08:45:20 AM
I'm sure Lusche can give a much better answer, but basically hitting the strats adds time to the resupply of the object hit.
Fuel is a waste of time to hit as you can't knock down the fuel at a base more than 75 percent and that is enough for most rides. However if you knock the ammo strat down and than take out the ammo at a field the time it is down could go from 15 minutes to a couple of hours. This is what make the dar/hq issue so big. If you drop the city it adds tike to the dar being down
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Lusche on November 04, 2015, 10:29:17 AM
However, my personal view aside. What is the effect of hitting the strats?
The downtime of the objects connected to them will be increased. All such objects (except HQ) have a basic downtime of 30 minutes. A bombed strat will increase that by up to 120 additional minutes, i.e. a AA factory bombed down to 20% would cause newly destroyed auto ack guns to have a DT of 126 minutes.
AA factory = all auto guns (manned guns always stay down for 15 minutes fixed) Ammo factory = ords bunkers Radar factory = local radar towers (not HQ!) Troop training = barracks (=troops and supplies) Refinery = fuel tanks (basically no actual impact on gameplay though) City = town buildings & HQ
HQ has, by default, a basic downtime of 45 minutes - but it's currently changed manually to 5 minutes as soon as someone from HTC checks into the arena after each map reset.
Bombing a strat has no effect on objects already down. The only way to prolong downtime of such objects would be to shoot auto resupply convoys/barges/trains
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Hetzer7 on November 04, 2015, 10:34:33 AM
HQ has, by default, a basic downtime of 45 minutes - but it's currently changed manually to 5 minutes as soon as someone from HTC checks into the arena after each map reset.
HTC is still doing this even after the damage increase? Sorry, been out of the loop on this one, thanks <S>
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Bizman on November 04, 2015, 10:48:03 AM
I first thought the subject would be about something like this:
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Lusche on November 04, 2015, 10:49:14 AM
HTC is still doing this even after the damage increase? Sorry, been out of the loop on this one, thanks <S>
damage has to be changed manually as well.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Biggamer on November 04, 2015, 01:34:21 PM
fuel factory has some effect if you kill all fuel on a field then they can only up with 75% fuel at the most and no DTs, also you rarly if ever see this but it could affect the 163.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Randy1 on November 04, 2015, 02:01:21 PM
There does seem to be an increasing trend in base, runway vulching taking advantage of start damage to slow field ack downtime. More common on weekends than during the week.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Tumor on November 04, 2015, 03:39:30 PM
Answer A: Because they are there, and get points.
Answer B: To make people ask why, and get points.
Answer C: To get offers to pay one's HTC bill in exchange for playing according to said payer's rules, and get points.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Zimme83 on November 04, 2015, 03:44:10 PM
Bombing fuel strats gives a very cool burning factory. Other than that its totally pointless.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: cobia38 on November 04, 2015, 04:30:12 PM
The downtime of the objects connected to them will be increased. All such objects (except HQ) have a basic downtime of 30 minutes. A bombed strat will increase that by up to 120 additional minutes, i.e. a AA factory bombed down to 20% would cause newly destroyed auto ack guns to have a DT of 126 minutes.
AA factory = all auto guns (manned guns always stay down for 15 minutes fixed) Ammo factory = ords bunkers Radar factory = local radar towers (not HQ!) Troop training = barracks (=troops and supplies) Refinery = fuel tanks (basically no actual impact on gameplay though) City = town buildings & HQ
HQ has, by default, a basic downtime of 45 minutes - but it's currently changed manually to 5 minutes as soon as someone from HTC checks into the arena after each map reset.
Bombing a strat has no effect on objects already down. The only way to prolong downtime of such objects would be to shoot auto resupply convoys/barges/trains
This would be the answer your looking for...
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: FESS67 on November 04, 2015, 06:13:17 PM
Yep, that would be the answer I was looking for. Thanks Lusche
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Chilli on November 04, 2015, 07:11:17 PM
Actually, these are the correct answers to your specific question about Fuel Refinery:
fuel factory has some effect if you kill all fuel on a field then they can only up with 75% fuel at the most and no DTs, also you rarely if ever see this but it could affect the 163.
The downtime of the objects connected to them will be increased. All such objects (except HQ) have a basic downtime of 30 minutes. A bombed strat will increase that by up to 120 additional minutes, i.e. a AA factory bombed down to 20% would cause newly destroyed auto ack guns to have a DT of 126 minutes.
Refinery = fuel tanks (basically no actual impact on gameplay though) - disagree if fuel bunkers stay down longer; see above quotes (and that's a first for Lusche, maybe baby distracted - and that's allowed :lol )
Bombing a strat has no effect on objects already down. The only way to prolong downtime of such objects would be to shoot auto resupply convoys/barges/trains
Edited portions of quotes
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Lusche on November 05, 2015, 01:03:32 AM
Actually, these are the correct answers to your specific question about Fuel Refinery:
(...)
"Refinery = fuel tanks (basically no actual impact on gameplay though)" - disagree if fuel bunkers stay down longer; see above quotes (and that's a first for Lusche, maybe baby distracted - and that's allowed :lol )
Edited portions of quotes
Oh, I made quite some errors before, so that would not be a first at all.... but this ain't one of them :neener:
Neither I was distracted, nor did I ive any wrong information. In fact, I chose my words very carefully: "basically no actual impact on gameplay though". And that's exactly what it means: Not that nothing happens - but the actual impact on gameplay of someone bombing the refinery is absolutely negigible.
Fuel almost never gets porked on fields (for good reasons), that's why your bombs are wasted on the refinery if you are only loocking to have an effect on your enemies. In that case, go bomb something else.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: SlipKnt on November 05, 2015, 01:36:06 PM
In theory dropping the fuel strats then porking the correct fields would impact 163s and long range high altitude bombers. It would be a chore to work that but it is possible.
If I intend to work a map and take bases, I am going to hit the hell out of the strats to get gun times and city object times to rebuild increased.
In addition, with the resources, I'd also shut the base down and make it very difficult to defend. Not in a horde, but with select bomber and fighter types.
It is a good question. The gamer that prefers to take bases will likely attack strats. The gamer that wont pork will likely fly around looking for fights.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Wiley on November 05, 2015, 01:39:14 PM
In theory dropping the fuel strats then porking the correct fields would impact 163s and long range high altitude bombers. It would be a chore to work that but it is possible.
Except isn't the 163 hard coded to 5 minutes no matter what the fuel state of the field is? Pretty sure I remember reading that a while ago. Don't think I've ever seen the 163 base porked to check.
Wiley.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Lusche on November 05, 2015, 01:57:01 PM
In theory dropping the fuel strats then porking the correct fields would impact 163s and long range high altitude bombers. It would be a chore to work that but it is possible.
Except isn't the 163 hard coded to 5 minutes no matter what the fuel state of the field is? Pretty sure I remember reading that a while ago. Don't think I've ever seen the 163 base porked to check.
The Me 163 fuel burn rate is hardcoded. Less fuel available still affects them... But I have seen my 163 base being fuel porked maybe 2-3 times in the 10 years I've been here. And for the long range bombers... there's always another base to up from. If you are planning for a 2h+ sortie, field location becomes secondary.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Skyguns MKII on November 05, 2015, 02:48:27 PM
Simple, if benefits you and your nation and its fun :rock
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Wiley on November 05, 2015, 02:59:54 PM
Right! Arena setting doesn't affect it. Was thinking it was the same thing but I see the difference now.
Wiley.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Meatwad on November 06, 2015, 06:41:47 AM
Used to be able to pork fuel at fields down to 25% long ago before it was forced to be changed
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Lusche on November 06, 2015, 07:31:39 AM
Something I forgot to add: If you are hitting the strats "for points only", you have chosen the wrong target. Be it score or perks, there are much more valuable targets for that.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: cobia38 on November 06, 2015, 11:02:53 AM
Used to be able to pork fuel at fields down to 25% long ago before it was forced to be changed
really wish it was that way still
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: waystin2 on November 06, 2015, 12:59:26 PM
I have found that the explosions and fire when hitting a strat with a B-25H is the reward. :aok (http://techonfleek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/joker.jpg)
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: mia389 on November 06, 2015, 01:34:31 PM
Sometimes I like to bomb strats just to take my bombers behind enemy lines. It fun for me.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Flossy on November 06, 2015, 05:17:07 PM
Because they are there. Because I can. :p :bolt:
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Volron on November 06, 2015, 06:43:53 PM
I had a conversation today. A player announced that he had hit the fuel strats. I asked what did that achieve?
I was eventually met with some pretty spirited answers (that I should calm down as it was 6am...lol) well, it was 8pm my time so I am not sure what relevance that answer had.
Sooo, I said I would take it to the BBS. Thanks to ORICK for trying to explain in game but I still think I need to ask the question here.
I will be up front. I think you strat buffs are nothing but point potatos. You do it simply because it is an easy way to make points. Especially in an arena that has 100 bases and 30 players
However, my personal view aside. What is the effect of hitting the strats? How is the enemy hampered and how does that help us?
Example in point. Guy declares with pride that the enemy fuel strats are down. So what?
Are the enemy deprived of fuel?
If yes, what is the impact of that deprivation?
In my experience, I have never suffered from lack of fuel on take off. It is rare that I would take more than 50% fuel.
Despite the cranky (defensive) answers I got in game (it was 6am after all).....what is the 'real' gameplay impact of dropping the strats (I will open it up to all strats because IMO hitting fuel strats with 30 people in game is nothing but point grabbing)
See my thread LW 12 hour campaign....
1 B-17 strat run eventually led to owning over 30% of an enemy countries bases and that was just the last time that happened.
Look at strat runs like you would painting a wall. Whatever color you use it first needs a base coat. If you want to make a significant impact on the war effort whether for offense or defense the enemies strats must go! When no on wants to pork up B-17s and drop the ammo. instead of bomb and bailing drop to the deck and gun the rest down and die in the ACK. Then pork the hell out of a front and watch the whines commence.
Or.... drop city and AAA with lancs and stir up a fight so you dont have to bomb and bail. Then take an enemy base deep within the county and draw attention to that base opening up other areas for offensives. :cheers:
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Wizz on November 14, 2015, 12:33:00 AM
1 B-17 strat run eventually led to owning over 30% of an enemy countries bases and that was just the last time that happened.
Look at strat runs like you would painting a wall. Whatever color you use it first needs a base coat. If you want to make a significant impact on the war effort whether for offense or defense the enemies strats must go! When no on wants to pork up B-17s and drop the ammo. instead of bomb and bailing drop to the deck and gun the rest down and die in the ACK. Then pork the hell out of a front and watch the whines commence.
Or.... drop city and AAA with lancs and stir up a fight so you dont have to bomb and bail. Then take an enemy base deep within the county and draw attention to that base opening up other areas for offensives. :cheers:
anything beyond this is nothing more than skilless entertainment. Who are we to judge how someone spends their money, time, and effort?
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: vHACKv on November 18, 2015, 02:08:55 PM
Depriving the 163 of fuel can be a game changer. I don't think I am going to explain it in detail as I like flying the 163. However there are times I do deprive it of fuel to give me an advantage. :noid
I do this more frequently than senior statistics states, but he can only be on one country at a time. Also, I always take into consideration where he is, as he is the biggest stopper of my evil plans. :bhead
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Dundee on November 18, 2015, 02:19:13 PM
I think the fire at a HQ caused by GV's is more impressive................
I have found that the explosions and fire when hitting a strat with a B-25H is the reward. :aok (http://techonfleek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/joker.jpg)
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Puck on November 18, 2015, 02:22:15 PM
I had a conversation today. A player announced that he had hit the fuel strats. I asked what did that achieve?
I was eventually met with some pretty spirited answers (that I should calm down as it was 6am...lol) well, it was 8pm my time so I am not sure what relevance that answer had.
Not only 8:00 PM, 8:00 PM tomorrow, and you didn't even have the decency to tell them what the winning lottery numbers were going to be. Rude. Sorry; I got hung up on "Perth". Sitting on Hay Street mall listening to the girls talk. There's something about an Aussie accent...and now I spend most of my idle time in (or around) Germany. Not the same.
Strat targets were invented to give people something to do besides furball, which was at the time considered boring by people who wanted to add a new dimension to game play. The nicest result was to add a whole new strata of <complaining> on the boards, thus proving that no good deed (by HTC) goes unpunished.
Not a very satisfying answer, but the reality is people play for different goals. No matter how you play it, someone will be sure to explain how you are doing it wrong.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Skyguns MKII on November 18, 2015, 05:59:00 PM
I think the fire at a HQ caused by GV's is more impressive................
49Dundee 49th FG XO
Used to be the funnest most aggressive gv battles. Fun times...
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: 1ijac on November 19, 2015, 12:30:14 PM
In my opinion, hitting an enemy's AAA strat is one of the most worthwhile. This is a strategic move. The closer you get that % down to 0, the closer you get to that enemy's auto guns to stay down for almost 3 hours without resupply. The beauty is that when you capture the enemy base, all the auto ack pop back up and their downtime is then dictated by your country's AAA downtime. In regards to the other strats, your country would inherit the existing downtimes of the previous country when you capture that particular base until they are enabled. Then, that base is controlled by your own country's strats. So you see, If you have really porked up the enemy's city srtat, when you capture that base, you have a lot of resupplying to do to get the town buildings back up. The same goes for the other strats. It can actually work against you if you have porked let's say the enemy's ammo strat badly and your country is overzealous in porking the field you capture and kills the ammo bunkers. You have to either resupply or wait for the ammo bunkers to regenerate.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Tumor on November 20, 2015, 03:56:16 PM
In my opinion, hitting an enemy's AAA strat is one of the most worthwhile. This is a strategic move. The closer you get that % down to 0, the closer you get to that enemy's auto guns to stay down for almost 3 hours without resupply. The beauty is that when you capture the enemy base, all the auto ack pop back up and their downtime is then dictated by your country's AAA downtime. In regards to the other strats, your country would inherit the existing downtimes of the previous country when you capture that particular base until they are enabled. Then, that base is controlled by your own country's strats. So you see, If you have really porked up the enemy's city srtat, when you capture that base, you have a lot of resupplying to do to get the town buildings back up. The same goes for the other strats. It can actually work against you if you have porked let's say the enemy's ammo strat badly and your country is overzealous in porking the field you capture and kills the ammo bunkers. You have to either resupply or wait for the ammo bunkers to regenerate.
Right on.
Regardless. Strats are part of the "War". Valid targets that can work for you and your country. IMHO, the Strats SHOULD play a far more vital part of the game. Not necessarily "hardness", but more integrated. There's so much room. Hitting refineries is pointless... why?
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Kingpin on November 20, 2015, 06:35:10 PM
Regardless. Strats are part of the "War". Valid targets that can work for you and your country. IMHO, the Strats SHOULD play a far more vital part of the game. Not necessarily "hardness", but more integrated. There's so much room. Hitting refineries is pointless... why?
I agree with this provided the positioning of the strat factories are such that they are always defensible.
One of the problems with the current strat system is that strat factories are often positioned where they are either difficult to defend, or worse, can be isolated on islands and surrounded by bases captured by the enemy. This IMO a makes for a poor and silly strat system. The notion that a country would continue to produce from, or rely exclusively on, a factory in enemy territory is just silly. Strats should be fought over, but with no dar over them and bases that can be easily snuck during the low-pop hours, the system is easily abused.
This is largely an issue of map design, but could also be solved by some additions to the strat system itself. 1) Strat factories adjacent to an enemy base should relocate (retreat) to another location AND/OR 2) there should be more than 1 factory for each strategic resource, so that a single bombing pass or capture of one base can't utterly cripple an entire country for an extended period.
IMO, a system like this would be more realistic, and more importantly promote more fighting above and around the strats than occurs now. Right now, many strats are easily reached without opposition and can be crippled by a single player, or worse, they can be isolated and constantly kept a 0% by the capture of a single base.
The system needs to (and does to some extent) promote fighting, but it could be implemented in a more effective way to that end.
My two cents...
<S>
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: 1ijac on November 21, 2015, 01:31:05 AM
You have some good points there kingpin. I believe your suggestions would enhance the game.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Chalenge on November 21, 2015, 01:47:43 AM
It's a defensive move. By hitting the fuel factory and getting rid of drop tanks you effectively remove the danger of very long range fighters from chasing you down. Also, the shorter range fighters like the I-16, and some of the 109s are very limited without drop tanks. Primarily, though, it is the 163, Ta-152 and the Spit XIV that you need to be worried about at high altitude. Most of the Jug pilots in the game do not know how to attack a fast moving bomber above 30k. The same goes for most of the .50 fighters.
I would like to see the strategy of the game extend deeper into required gameplay, but with limited numbers I do not think now is a good time to push for that.
Title: Re: STRATS - why do you hit them?
Post by: Tumor on November 22, 2015, 02:14:35 AM