Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: SFRT - Frenchy on November 15, 2015, 11:35:25 AM
Title: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on November 15, 2015, 11:35:25 AM
Yucca & I went to the DA and practiced some dogfights to learn from each other and improve. You'll be able to see each other's mistakes, each others moves and train of thoughts. I threw in some commentaries and some P47s tips at the end with 'time stamps' in the description for quick reference.
Definitely not a 'look at me! look at me!' video. We thought it could be useful for our pilots that struggle with basic ACM with the big boat and gain familiarity on their behaviors. So take it as such if interested. :salute
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: Kanth on November 15, 2015, 11:45:53 AM
This is super handy as I'm trying to train someone, thanks!! :aok
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: FLS on November 15, 2015, 12:37:39 PM
Looks like fun fights. :aok
I'll add some general comments to yours.
On the rolling scissors a more vertical loop limits your forward travel better than chopping throttle.
An oblique merge loop adds or reduces turning room and keeps more speed over the top. A vertical loop has more vertical travel so you keep less speed over the top and it's easier to get hung up.
You chopped throttle to "help" your turn when you were nose down and low E. You needed WEP for maneuvering speed. You want to decrease radius with max available g not low speed. Turning speed is only too high when it's above corner speed. A good rule of thumb is if you can't black out you aren't too fast and don't need to pull power.
Energy is speed and altitude. Altitude generally has more E than speed. Instead of cutting throttle, go up to slow down and keep more E. There are times to cut throttle, like when you're stalled and can't roll against the torque, but usually it's best to keep your speed up and climb to slow down.
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on November 15, 2015, 01:42:00 PM
Those are solid proven tactics FLS, thank you for adding them. I have to temper them a hair because we are talking P47M here .. with 50% fuel and full gun package ... kind of a dog at low speed with low abilities to pull Gs.
E fighting is always the safe route indeed, but this is not what this video is about. Yucca and I find it awfully boring and as a P47 pilot in the MA, you'll rarely start higher. To be noted, when you have an excellent shooter with 50s that can hit you hard up to 600-800y out that is also very aggressive, E fighting technique don't work as good. Similar planes you will not be out of his cone of death quick enough. You'll have more E or Speed indeed, but not the distance.
You chopped throttle to "help" your turn when you were nose down and low E. You needed WEP for maneuvering speed. You want to decrease radius with max available g not low speed. Turning speed is only too high when it's above corner speed. Yes and I'm working on that. I took bad habits and I bank too much on slowing down aggressively with rudder/power/G as I usually compensate with hanging on the prop/gunnery.
Thank you FLS :aok
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: scott66 on November 15, 2015, 01:51:34 PM
Awesome video! All that ACM seems complicated LOL that's why I don't fly much HTC still waiting on that kill shooter feature for when AKAK shoots at me also plz add yucca thank you :)
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: FLS on November 15, 2015, 02:30:03 PM
I wasn't suggesting a different fighting style Frenchy. My comments are about keeping more maneuvering speed for better turn radius and rate in a turn fight. There are times when you want to slow down but keeping enough speed can keep you out of trouble if you stay inside Yucca's turn. A spiral climb until the bandit drops his nose leaves you in a better position than low and slow and hoping the bandit doesn't climb inside your turn.
Nothing wrong with blowing your speed in a hard turn if it gives you the shot, but if you aren't sure it will work and you lag instead of lead, you will set up a better shot as you align flight paths or the bandit reverses giving you an improved crossing shot.
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on November 15, 2015, 02:59:27 PM
It's a fair statement, I'm hearing you :cheers:
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: FLS on November 15, 2015, 03:15:22 PM
Everything that works is correct. :aok
I just wanted to comment for the struggling pilot. :cheers:
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: uptown on November 15, 2015, 08:46:37 PM
:aok
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: Tumor on November 16, 2015, 12:07:47 PM
Oh well happy happy, joy joy. Now EVERYbody is gonna be out trying to master the brick with wings.
No really, cool vids. Ya'll both class acts too... which makes it a joy to KILL ya, as much as be kilt by ya! :devil
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: LLv34_Dictonius on November 17, 2015, 12:16:36 AM
It has been a long time since I have had the change to spend time in DA with friends. Good inspiration. Even though I know I wouldn't be able to do with 47 anything else but stall... or maybe fly forward :salute
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: Pawz on November 17, 2015, 08:23:55 AM
Nice work gentlemen hopefully we can learn from this and add to the AH experience :banana:
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: Squire on November 18, 2015, 02:12:02 AM
We need more of this from veteran players and not so much the films and youtubes postings to worship ones self.
Anyways good stuff. :salute
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: Groth on November 25, 2015, 03:15:15 PM
Thanks for great post. JGroth
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: Shuffler on November 29, 2015, 10:21:52 AM
P47s are fun but I think I will stay with my 38. :evil:
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: -ammo- on November 29, 2015, 12:14:55 PM
Good stuff Frenchy and Yucca - thanks for sharing. :rock
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: Chilli on November 29, 2015, 02:32:06 PM
Thank you both. I had chosen the P47D25 to fly for other reasons, rear visibility and low eny. My intent was the wear in that pilot's seat until I had some sort of feeling for the controls. This film was a good step in that direction for me.
Noted during the video, Yucca doesn't miss :D Both were very talented and great instructors. It is great that the merge was extensively covered, as this is where many fights go belly up quickly.
:salute
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: Chilli on November 29, 2015, 03:14:29 PM
I didn't see you comment of the convergence on the guns. Can I assume there are minimal differences in convergence, between models?
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: mbailey on November 29, 2015, 06:33:06 PM
Man that looked like fun!
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on November 30, 2015, 04:00:29 PM
Chilli, good point. I myself use 250. I tried 100/150 as to give me a definite kill on those knife edge dogfight snapshots as the bad guy zaps thru your gunsight. It didn't seem to make much of a difference, I was rarely getting that critical damage, but I surely had a disadvantage on my other breat and butter, the 400/600y deflection shots. I tried 600y convergence, I tried 400/450/500/550 'shotgun' convergence and various declinations. 250 is my best result.
As far as model goes, they all have the same convergence except the N. The N has an extra wing section between the guns and the fuselage. I still use 250.
De-acking is porked for the 50s. HTC modeled the 20mm cannon like a hand grenade. Anywhere into the AAA circle and it'll go boom 1 shell. With the 50s you have to hit the gun and you can literally spray inside the circle for a couple of seconds like 300-400 rounds and still not kill the dam thing. 250 convergence, you'll have to offset your aim to one side to hit 'the gun', or wait the all 300y to shoot. :old:
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: morfiend on December 02, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
I'm glad to see that Frenchie finally put this in the proper forum..... :devil
Frenchie,I like that you use a close in conv.,if you can call 250 close... :rofl But I see many players who use 400 to 600 yds.
The problem with a long convergence is that the rounds dont come up to the pipper until conv range so they end up having to pull even more lead in a maneuvering shot.
I'm not a very good shot,my eyesight fails me,so I'm forced to get in close to hit anything. I tend to use 250 as my settingsome MG's I set to 300 because they are cowl mounted but other than that most guns are at 250,except the german 30mm,that I set to 175 or 200!
:salute
Title: Re: Yucca and Frenchy dogfights with commentaries
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 02, 2015, 02:46:21 PM
Really enjoyed your video Frenchy and Yucca...
just would like to add one thing regarding convergence settings.... they will be different for every player...
The idea is to find what works best for you, and you need to learn to not be looking at the icon range counter, but look at the plane size in your bore site, you need to practice and memorize this mental picture size until it becomes second nature or some will refer to it as muscle memory.... Then it will not matter what convergence you use, just learn to find what convergence you prefer, then practice memorizing the plane size in your bore site...... don't think this happens in just a month or two. It most times takes nearly a good year of flying to become proficient to get this mental picture in your head/memory....
I fly most all planes at 350 convergence, because that is my mental picture I have come to know, for deflection and crossing shots, etc...
one other thing to do, if you duel a lot, you most likely will be flying in close quarters combat, so you can actually drop your 350 range down from 350 to like 300 or 275 and be even better...but I apply this reduction of convergence to Dueling only.... my preference, any ways
some of the smaller ammo guns, it's bets to shorten the convg range anyways, possibly use the default game loaded convergence, for the best hitting effectiveness.......