Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Scherf on November 16, 2015, 03:48:12 PM
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Posted this on another board, figured it was worth repeating here:
Many of you will have heard of or read Heinz Knoke’s “I Flew for the Fuehrer”. One of the incidents he relates is his victory over a Mosquito on 6 November, 1942. The book was written some years after the war ended, and Knoke was going by memory. Problem with his story is, no Mosquito was lost that day, nor were any even flying in the area. Further problem is, he remembers “his” having been one of two which had been over Berlin that day – that didn’t happen. Mossies made an attempt on Berlin on 19 September ’42, one claiming to have bombed through cloud, then didn’t go back again until the end of January, to disrupt speeches by Goering and Goebbels.
It’s clear Knoke mixes the story of the January raid with his own encounter, as demonstrated by his recollection of a conversation with Goering later on in the book (see below).
So, whatever he attacked on 6 November ’42, it wasn’t a Mosquito. So, what was it then? Turns out a Wellington of the Alouette Squadron was attacked in the same area, at the same time, and in the same circumstances Knoke describes. It was on a raid to Wilhelmshaven, and despite the damage inflicted by the Luftwaffe fighters, escaped, went on to bomb, and returned to its base.
So, in short, Knoke’s “Mosquito” wasn’t a Mosquito, and he didn’t shoot it down.
I’ve attached the Wellington’s combat report and the relevant excerpts from the book, including Knoke’s exchange with Goering – the speech the latter was to deliver, which was disrupted by Mossies on 30 January 1943, was a combination of “Celebrating 10 Years of the NSDAP in Power” and “The Funeral Oration of 6th Army”. Note that UK and German time were identical on this date – Knoke says he spots the “Mosquito” at 13:47, Wellington reports seeing the fighters at 13:50.
Wellington’s Report from AIR 50/298
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad212/mhuxt/AIR%2050-298_zpsmiqrebsp.png) (http://s937.photobucket.com/user/mhuxt/media/AIR%2050-298_zpsmiqrebsp.png.html)
Book excerpts:
6th November 1942
1200 : from Division Headquarters comes a report of two Mosquitoes approaching. At the same moment there is a ring at my telephone. Lieutenant Kramer, our Fighter Control Officer at Division, calls to ask if I can fly in the bad weather.
I reply in the negative. Cloud ceiling is down to 100 feet, and visibility is impossible. I cannot even see across to the other side of the airfield.
“Sorry Kramer, it cannot be done. Anyway, in this sort of muck the two Tommies will come down on their snouts without our help.”
For several hours it has been raining – a steady, persistent drizzle. The pilots sit around, playing cards or writing letters home, or lie sleeping on camp-cots in the next room.
I plot the progress of the Mosquitoes from the position reports as they come in. They actually fly inland over the heart of the Reich. Inside of an hour they are reported to be over Berlin, and our flak opens up on them. Those lads must have guts all right. Weather like this makes flying anything but a picnic.
The telephone rings again.
“No. 5 Flight; Lieutenant Knoke here.”
The call this time is from Colonel Henschel, commanding fighter defences in the North Sea coastal area.
“How is the weather at your end, Knoke?”
“Just as bad as it can be, sir. I can only see for a few yards.”
“Knoke, you will have to fly, and that is all there is to it. I have just had a telephone call from Reich-Marshal Goering. He is in one of his rages. Why are we not in the air? The weather is too bad for us to fly, yet those confounded Tommies can get over Berlin. Do you imagine I would tell that to the Reich-Marshal? Those Mosquitoes are to be shot down at all costs. Do you understand?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Which of your pilots are you going to send?”
“Flight Sergeant Wenneckers and myself, sir.”
“Very well – and the best of luck to you!”
“Thank you, sir.”
Wenneckers and I are the only pilots in the Wing with experience in blind flying. This is not the first time that we have set off together in dirty weather.
Take-off 1330 hours.
I can hardly see anything ahead. This blasted rain! Keeping down low, we hurtle over roof-tops, trees and power lines. Radio reception from the ground is good. Lieutenant Kramer directs me.
The Tommies are heading north-west over the Bremen area. From past experience they may be expected to cross the East Friesian Islands.
I head for the coast. The weather over the sea is not any better.
The most recent report gives the position of the Mosquitoes as map reference sector Bertha-Quelle-eight, on course three-one-five. At any moment now we may sight the bastards, if we keep our eyes peeled. If only it would stop raining! We have to concentrate our attention on not running into some obstruction.
Time: 1347 hours.
I am unable to see anything at all ahead. It is maddening. Base calls: “You should see them now. Try a little to the left.”
I do not answer. For a shadow suddenly looms out of the greyness ahead. It is a Mosquito.
He has spotted me also, and whips around to the left in a vertical bank, almost dipping his wing-tip in the sea. Now he twists round to the right. The he dodges to the left again.
“No, no, my friend, it is not such a simple matter to shake off Knoke. Every time he turns I fire in front of his nose.
We are flying low, very low, heading out over the open sea now. My Tommy leaves a faint trail of smoke. At full throttle he follows a steady course of three-two-zero. He moves at such a blasted high speed. But my good Gustav is just able to maintain the pace. I stay on his tail. Wenneckers gradually falls behind. The terrific speed is too high for his plane.
I want to fire at only the closest possible range, and hence try to close the gap between us. Slowly, almost imperceptibly, I draw nearer to my opponent. I shut the radiator flaps, and the range closes to 150 feet. He is squarely in my sights.
“Fire, Knoke, fire – NOW!”
I press both firing-buttons. The burst catches him in the left engine. The plane is constructed of wood. The wing goes up in flames at once and shears off at the root. A few seconds later on De Havilland Mosquito vanishes into the depths of the North Sea.
That was my third.
Nothing but a sludge of oil is left on the surface. I mop the sweat from my face.
Göring asks about the enemy aircraft I have shot down. He is particularly interested in my first Mosquito last year. He well remembers the occasion. In his opinion, the Mosquito aircraft is nothing but an infernal nuisance and pain in the neck. He reiterates this with emphasis. The two which raided Berlin then caused him particular annoyance because he was starting an important public speech at the time, and had been forced to postpone it for two hours on account of the raid.
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British report states three 109Fs attacked them and they shot down one. Knoke's memoirs has him flying a 109G with one wing man and they lost none. Doesn't seem like the same engagement.
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I think that's just good old over claiming again. If anything, it proves my point that aircraft can be claimed shot down when none actually are. Also, as noted, Knoke wrote his account years after the war so can't really be depended on - he remembers the attack being on Mosquitos coming back from Berlin, and that simply didn't happen. Further, he remembers them having disrupted a Goering speech - that didn't happen until nearly 3 months later.
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Adding assumptions to the mix doesn't help. IMHO there's too many inconsistencies and variables to match these two accounts.
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Whatever. The RAF wasn't exactly over-active that day, the bomber Mosquitos weren't flying (one PR machine went to Norway, unmolested), no losses that day match for location, nor do the other encounter reports. Twin engine bomber attacked by 109s in the same area, at the same time, in the same circumstances, one's not going to find anything closer.
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Probably not, but that doesn't change anything.
British report: Wellington attacked inbound, before reaching the target: The port city of Wilhelmshaven (between Denmark and the Netherlands).
Knoke: Guided by radar to bomber returning from raid on Berlin.
British report: Wellington sights three 109s.
Knoke: Flight of only two 109s.
British report: Wellington fires at and observes one 109 go down smoking.
Knoke: No mention of damage or losses, or even being fired upon.
British report: Wellington attacked multiple times by the remaining two 109s.
Knoke: Attacked alone as his wing man couldn't keep up.
British report: Range closed rapidly between the wellington and the enemy formation.
Knoke: Had to close the radiator flaps to slowly gain on the bomber. (Wellingtons aren't nearly that fast.)
British report: Wellington damaged but flyable. Continues mission after evading the 109s in clouds.
Knoke: Shoots down the bomber. Notes the wing came off in flames and seeing oil on the surface of the sea.
This can't be the same engagement.
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Probably not, but that doesn't change anything.
British report: Wellington attacked inbound, before reaching the target: The port city of Wilhelmshaven (between Denmark and the Netherlands).
Knoke: Guided by radar to bomber returning from raid on Berlin.
British report: Wellington sights three 109s.
Knoke: Flight of only two 109s.
British report: Wellington fires at and observes one 109 go down smoking.
Knoke: No mention of damage or losses, or even being fired upon.
British report: Wellington attacked multiple times by the remaining two 109s.
Knoke: Attacked alone as his wing man couldn't keep up.
British report: Range closed rapidly between the wellington and the enemy formation.
Knoke: Had to close the radiator flaps to slowly gain on the bomber. (Wellingtons aren't nearly that fast.)
British report: Wellington damaged but flyable. Continues mission after evading the 109s in clouds.
Knoke: Shoots down the bomber. Notes the wing came off in flames and seeing oil on the surface of the sea.
This can't be the same engagement.
What I'm telling you is, there was no raid on Berlin that day. Knoke's going from memory, years after the war, and he gets it wrong. He's mixed it up with the raid of 30 January, 1943, which was on Berlin, against a Goering speech. The only thing from his point of view you can rely on is his Flugbuch, which match for date, time and location to the Brit report.
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What does his flight book say then?
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Scherf, have you considered that the date given by Knocke is wrong , but the recollection of the engagement is correct? Maybe you should look into what happened to the Mossies that raided Berlin in late January.
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Scherf, have you considered that the date given by Knocke is wrong , but the recollection of the engagement is correct? Maybe you should look into what happened to the Mossies that raided Berlin in late January.
Afaik only one of the six Mossies raiding Berlin was lost that January day and it was shot down by flak.
139 Squadron, Squadron Leader D.F. Darling was shot down, both Darling and his navigator being killed.
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Funny. I was looking at that chapter of knocke's book just two days ago and wondered what mossie he shot down.
He got it at very low alt so I thought it was maybe an intruder. But at this early date day intuders were not common and only NF.II mossies were available for such a mission. I figured the bombers would fly high, but then they could not bomb anything in that weather.
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Another theory that I find more plausible is that it was one of three Lockheed Ventura lost to unknown reasons on missions off the Dutch coast on November 6. Their crews washed ashore and are buried in the Netherlands.
A Lockheed Ventura is easy to mistake for a Mosquito, rear aspect and in bad weather. It's the right size for a Mosquito and much faster than a Wellington.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/Ventura.jpg)
http://franckruffino.chez.com/My-Site/Victory_2.htm
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Twin tails vs single tail.
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Are you one of those persons who just love tolling around stating the obvious?
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Guys, will respond, just not now - sick as a dog.
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Get well soon :salute
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Cheers, thanks.
:salute
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Are you one of those persons who just love tolling around stating the obvious?
The obvious you missed. :x
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I missed? :huh
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Hi Guys,
Sorry delay. Will try to handle the queries in some kind of order.
What’s the logbook say?
Took off Jever on 6.11, 13:30 hours. Landed Jever 6.11, 14:14 hours. Flight duration 44 minutes. Abschuss of a de Havilland Mosquito in QBI (very bad weather) 70 km N of Borkum.
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad212/mhuxt/Flugbuch20HK20062011201942a_zpskwqnu317.jpg) (http://s937.photobucket.com/user/mhuxt/media/Flugbuch20HK20062011201942a_zpskwqnu317.jpg.html)
(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad212/mhuxt/Flugbuch20HK20062011201942b_zpslxqnngul.jpg) (http://s937.photobucket.com/user/mhuxt/media/Flugbuch20HK20062011201942b_zpslxqnngul.jpg.html)
Any chance of right encounter, wrong date?
No, Knoke’s logbook makes the date of his encounter clear. As I say, there were no Mosquitos headed to Berlin that day. Only days Mossies tried for Berlin were 19 September ’42, (of which more below), 30 Jan ’43 (the raid Goering remembered and discussed with Knoke), then a recce Mossie in early March (prompting the first of many angry entries in Goebbels diaries).
Was it one of the Venturas?
No. What Franck Ruffino (who supplied the “burning Ventura” image above) has been told, but has not put on his website, as that there are flak claims for all three missing Venturas, as follows:
AJ200: 14.31 hrs 2 km Z Spijkenisse
AE848: 14.35 hrs North Sea W Bergen aan Zee
AE784: 14.38 hrs Waddenzee 5 km E of Den Helder
All a long way from where Knoke was, and all claimed after he’d landed. Part of my reason for chasing about for an encounter report from a non-Ventura aircraft was that the Ventura stuff is all well-known, and just doesn’t fit.
If no Mosquitos were lost, or were even close, Knoke must have shot something else into the sea.
No. RAF crew lost at sea are remembered on the Runnymede Memorial, part of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Their database can be searched via this link:
http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search39-47.php
I and various others have been through the lists of casualties, and what you come up with are three of the flyers from one of the Venturas, three from an 83 Sqn Lanc lost that evening, and a fellow from an ASR Lysander. So, Knoke’s claim that anything, let alone a Mossie, went into the sea, is not accurate.
What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying we’re not even supposed to trust the evidence of Knocke’s own eyes? He saw the thing crash for chrissakes!
Well, yes, I’m afraid that’s precisely what I mean. Knoke is simply not a reliable witness, even when he claims to have seen something with his own eyes. Example: a few pages after describing his Mosquito encounter, he describes reminiscing at Christmas, remembering fallen comrades. One of the names he mentions is Gerd Steiger, “shot down before our eyes by a Mosquito over the south side of the airfield…” Very evocative, Mossie sneaking into the pattern and bouncing the 109 in front of his comrades. Only problem is – that just didn’t happen. Mossies did in fact get over German airfields and shoot down returning / departing aircraft, in daylight, in front of their LW comrades, but not for another two years. For the incident to have happened the way Knoke claims, the history books would have to be re-written. It would have been the first Mosquito daylight victory, would be the first claim over a 109 by more than a year, first claim over German airspace by a similar amount, etc etc.
Steiger perished on 19 September 1942, according to the German wargraves organisation. It just so happens that 19 September was the date on which bomber Mossies did make a first, abortive attempt on Berlin, only one claiming to have bombed on ETA, another being shot down by Fw. Rudolf Piffer, of 11./JG 1. So, Steiger’s death may well have had some connection to Mosquitos, as his Geschwader was involved in trying to chase them that day, but shot down by a marauding Mosquito? Absolutely, positively, demonstrably not, despite what Knoke claims to have seen with his own eyes.
So, the report from the Wellington gives an encounter at the right time of day, in the right part of the world, in the right weather circumstances, with the right outcome (didn’t go into the water), on a day when the RAF was not particularly active. A better match to Knoke’s log I don’t think you’re going to find, especially as none of the 1 Group and 3 Group bombers reported no encounters.
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What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying we’re not even supposed to trust the evidence of Knocke’s own eyes?
Heh. I can tell you that this is not unusual - in any aspect of life, not to mention a fighter pilot's.
- oldman
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Heh. I can tell you that this is not unusual - in any aspect of life, not to mention a fighter pilot's.
- oldman
Yeah. Eye witness reports are actually one of the least reliable pieces of evidence to use in an investigation.
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Yeah, that's what I meant when I said:
Adding assumptions to the mix doesn't help. IMHO there's too many inconsistencies and variables to match these two accounts.
We will never know.
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We will never know.
We can deduce. Just because it isn't favorable to the Luftwaffe's account doesn't mean we can't know. Cross referencing reports is a very good way to narrow it down and if the Wellington encounter is the only one that is physically possible then it had to have been the Wellington. It wasn't a Mosquito. It was on the date claimed, per his log book. It wasn't one of the three Venturas as there are AA claims for each with times after Knoke landed. That leaves the Wellington.
Even if we can't know 100%, we can figure out what was most likely the case.
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Or Knocke lied. Or it was an OSS/SOE S-Phone Mossie on a secret mission. Or...
We'll never know. But by all means keep speculating.
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You're really reaching....
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Lol really? I'm reaching? Knoke was a nazi scumbag, among other things. Doesn't make him a liar, but I would hardly be surprised if he padded his score. Certainly not the Luftwaffe ace I would choose to celebrate or research.
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"as that there are flak claims for all three missing Venturas"
It was quite common for flak to claim same planes the fighters shot at. There were instances where the amount of catastrophically planes fell to ground and both flak and fighters claimed the same planes. After the count on wrecks it was decided by the high command which unit was credited with kills. So in those instances there was no over claiming.
I'm not sure how the flak got credited their kills but I'd be surprised if there was a same kind of visual confirmation requirement as for fighters. Could it be that if planes were shot at and later on found in pieces on the ground the kill was credited to flak that operated in the area unless there was film and other evidence to support a claim by fighters?
-C+
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You're really reaching....
He is sounding more like that Hungarian lawyer all the time.
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Lol really? I'm reaching? Knoke was a nazi scumbag, among other things. Doesn't make him a liar, but I would hardly be surprised if he padded his score. Certainly not the Luftwaffe ace I would choose to celebrate or research.
I didn't call him, or the Wellington gunners, liars. I called them human. As studies have repeatedly found humans are poor witnesses.
It is a much more likely scenario than mysterious. non-existent Mosquitoes on black ops being shot down.
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"as that there are flak claims for all three missing Venturas"
It was quite common for flak to claim same planes the fighters shot at. There were instances where the amount of catastrophically planes fell to ground and both flak and fighters claimed the same planes. After the count on wrecks it was decided by the high command which unit was credited with kills. So in those instances there was no over claiming.
I'm not sure how the flak got credited their kills but I'd be surprised if there was a same kind of visual confirmation requirement as for fighters. Could it be that if planes were shot at and later on found in pieces on the ground the kill was credited to flak that operated in the area unless there was film and other evidence to support a claim by fighters?
-C+
Agreed, but the timing on the claims being after Knoke landed is what kills them as possibilities.
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I didn't call him...
I did. Or at least a potential liar. Goering furious, Knoke sees an opportunity to impress his Reichsmarschall and gain some personal glory for his own nazi knight ideal. Poor weather, over the sea... who would know. This is a case where we will never know the truth and can only choose to believe in one theory or another including that it was this Wellington. I choose to accept that I will never know.
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To go back to my original question, what did happen to the Mossies that raided Berlin on Jan 30? I still think that the encounter in question could have occurred on that date. Did they arrive home safely? Did Knocke claim any action on that date?
I'm not saying that this scenario is likely, I just want to see all the obvious stones turned.
Hell, maybe he bagged a Me 210 and thought it was a Mossie.
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To go back to my original question, what did happen to the Mossies that raided Berlin on Jan 30? I still think that the encounter in question could have occurred on that date. Did they arrive home safely? Did Knocke claim any action on that date?
I'm not saying that this scenario is likely, I just want to see all the obvious stones turned.
Hell, maybe he bagged a Me 210 and thought it was a Mossie.
It cannot have happened on that day. His log book claiming a Mossie matches the date mentioned in his book. The log book is filled out upon landing.
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As Karnak's noted, Knoke's logbook, the only original part of his tale, has the data on 6 November, so it can't have been the Berlin Mossies. IIRC on 30 January there were two groups of 6 from 105 and 139 Squadrons, one to pre-empt Goering at 11, the others to do the same to Goebbel's broadcast at, I think, 2.
There's audio from the Deutsche Rundfunk from just before Goering was due to speak, foolishly I mis-laid the link. Basically a shout, furniture going over, some dead air then martial music.
One of the 6 later aircraft was lost, apparently to flak as no air-to-air claim has ever come to light.
Part of my reason for this whole foofer-ah is that there's folks out there who'll put the whole thing down to missing British records, and that "it must have been" a Mosquito, despite any supporting evidence, because Knoke said it was and because there were no alternative explanations.