Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Slade on November 19, 2015, 12:02:39 PM
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Guys,
On many occasions I'd rather not climb to 15k+ when inbound to a target. The downside is becoming a vulch target for those who are at 15k+.
If you are at say 5k and find yourself being vulched what are some common techniques you perform to deal with this?
Thanks for sharing,
Slade :salute
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Chop throttle....barrel roll....wait for overshoot...pull trigger...bandit goes poof...rinse and repeat
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its such a burden upping from a field a sector away and climbing to the vulched field for 5 minutes then killing all the low and slow vulchers.
much better to let them kill you repeatedly while you accelerate from the same position from 0mph ever time.
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That to me isn't vulched... that is a normal fighting start.... For me my goal is to bleed the cons E... this is done with (usually) many defensive maneuvers which cause the con to strip some E by offering a free meal .... you really have to offer a good shot or they will just pullout and reset early... although you will be on the defensive (for me) it is an offensive as I am in reality moulding the fight into my way even though the con thinks they are in total control.....Now this doesn't always pay off especially if they are patient... But the key thing is you need to partially equalize E states.... usually with each overshoot there is a chance of a snap shot... and as things slow down these shot openings become longer.
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Guys,
On many occasions I'd rather not climb to 15k+ when inbound to a target. The downside is becoming a vulch target for those who are at 15k+.
If you are at say 5k and find yourself being vulched what are some common techniques you perform to deal with this?
Thanks for sharing,
Slade :salute
The only time you can be vulched at 5k is if you're taking off from a 5k base. Being vulched means that you were shot down as you were either in the process of taking off or landing. What you described is being bounced by enemy planes.
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Being shot down while flying at 5k certainly does not count as a vulch. It is always a risk to fly low, but it really depends on what your teammates are flying around you and what the enemy is flying. I've been swearing by using the speed/climb charts for each plane as of late, and it has helped me immensely in learning each aircraft. By checking these you will see exactly the altitudes in which your airplane performs at its best. Tactics to avoid higher aircraft depend on what they are flying just as much as what you are flying. Some aircraft with lower maximum dive speeds and are prone to compressing such as the 109s should give you ample time to relocate yourself. Planes that dive well (such as the 190) will only retain energy if they exit on the zoom climb. Pay attention to how much E they retain. I've had people dive from an incredible advantage only to pull too hard or overturn to attempt a shot, bleeding all of their energy. I use to be fearful and split-s frequently, but many times you will gain the upper hand by retaining what E you have and waiting for your opponent to level the field.
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Sorry for my inappropriate usage of the word vulched. I'll use Bounced as you suggest. Fester I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe you too are responding to my misuse of the term vulch.
The scenario I am looking for feedback on please is:
1. You are in the air and higher than 5k in altitude moving toward an enemy base.
2. An enemy plane is 5k+ above you and dives on you from your 6.
3. What options do you find effective to deal with this?
Thanks.
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Chop throttle....barrel roll....wait for overshoot...pull trigger...bandit goes poof...rinse and repeat
^^^^^ :aok
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^^^^^ :aok
Bingo
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Get out from under, climb up, kill them. :aok
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Barrel Rolls are a cool maneuver. I'd like to communicate something to those that use it as their sole method of dealing with guys on your 6. Are you ready? I have always been able to detect one performing one nearly instantly and move to counter it. In this, I have not been shot down once from someone using this technique on me. Not in years anyway.
On the other side, Barrel Rollers nearly always survive my bounce attempt on them. Kudos to them. :aok
I notice some are one trick ponies at dealing with being bounced (me included thus this post!). For me it has been a Split-S. Others, like Joker, usually live but I have only seen him use one move to counter me. As I detect him doing his one counter trick I adjust and try to have led waiting at his counter vector. I'm getting better at it. Hint: learn something new dude. ;)
Greebo too does a Semi Split-S Feign then has led waiting as you miss! BTW that is Jokers move but Greebo is better at it and has more moves.
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Barrel Rolls are a cool maneuver. I'd like to communicate something to those that use it as their sole method of dealing with guys on your 6. Are you ready? I have always been able to detect one performing one nearly instantly and move to counter it. In this, I have not been shot down once from someone using this technique on me. Not in years anyway.
On the other side, Barrel Rollers nearly always survive my bounce attempt on them. Kudos to them. :aok
I notice some are one trick ponies at dealing with being bounced (me included thus this post!). For me it has been a Split-S. Others, like Joker, usually live but I have only seen him use one move to counter me. As I detect him doing his one counter trick I adjust and try to have led waiting at his counter vector. I'm getting better at it. Hint: learn something new dude. ;-)
Greebo too does a Semi Split-S Feign then has led waiting as you miss! BTW that is Jokers move but Greebo is better at it and has more moves.
There are only a few options you have when you are low and slow on the deck after take off. Stick stir, scissors for overshoot and attempt to BRD, or a nose down rudder kick if they are really close. . Other than that, you really are in a tight spot and the enemy plane attacking you should just pull up and come back around. Most people fall right into the trap though.
If you are 3K or higher there a couple of other manuevers, nose down rudder kick with a snap roll usually gets them to miss while saving your E. You can do a nose nose down extended barrel roll to get them to follow, then cut throttle, deply flaps, and roll over them, while they desperatly try to stay on your 6 after gaining more speed following you down. If they are coming straight down on you, pull up into a loop and roll over them. If you think they are going to shoot you in your defensive attempt, roll ailerons right and left, normally makes it hard to shoot.
I fly 109s very well in the defensive and one thing I've learned is that A. Most people are terrible at aiming when you roll your ailerons. B. If you can get them to black out or lead shoot you, nose down and rudder kick in the opposite direction and they won't even know where you went.
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Sometimes doing repetitive moves is the way to go... this is usually because the attacker is doing the same thing over and over too...this is where SA comes in...knowing when to change it up.... many times I will rinse and repeat until the one moment that the attacker tries something different.... most times it is because of the repetitive maneuvers that this happens and it is what I am waiting for.... the attacker thinks he has a bead on you this time and sticks to the attack just that little bit longer and at a slightly different angle and boom you have the opportunity to inflict enough damage to change the fight... or if you are lucky enough get an out right kill.
Now if you have a patient attacker then this may not happen... but 9 out 10 people gett too excited about another pelt... especially when there is two three contending for the same one
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Sometimes doing repetitive moves is the way to go... this is usually because the attacker is doing the same thing over and over too...this is where SA comes in...knowing when to change it up.... many times I will rinse and repeat until the one moment that the attacker tries something different.... most times it is because of the repetitive maneuvers that this happens and it is what I am waiting for.... the attacker thinks he has a bead on you this time and sticks to the attack just that little bit longer and at a slightly different angle and boom you have the opportunity to inflict enough damage to change the fight... or if you are lucky enough get an out right kill.
Now if you have a patient attacker then this may not happen... but 9 out 10 people gett too excited about another pelt... especially when there is two three contending for the same one
This is actually a great point and works in the reverse as well. If the attacking con sees you making a repetitive dodge to their attempted bounce it gets a little easier to find a shot solution each time they see you perform your move. If they are smart they adjust based on your reactions to their bounce.
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A long turn flat, slight nose up or down depending on your speed but speed is important to get a good rate. If the red has good throttle control, this move is more problematic. Even with good throttle control the red has reduced his E to a point that other greens will jump them and he will pay the price.
262s and other high speed divers are the most susceptible and they are the easiest to roll around and get hits if they throttle back.
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I would suggest posting this request in the Help and Training section of the forum and seeing if you can get with one or two players/trainers to physically assist you. Written help and concepts are one thing, but developing the physical muscle memory to perform the maneuvers with the correct timing takes lots of practice.
I say "one or two" people to help, because sometimes the best thing is to just SEE the execution and purpose of a maneuver first, rather than trying to DO it first. Ride with both the defender and the attacker, so you can see it from both perspectives. Then if you feel the "why and when" of the concept makes sense, then do the flying to physically practice the timing and subtleties with them.
You also want to film everything -- your practice and combat -- and review your films. Sometimes things click better upon review, when the pressure and focus of "the fight" are gone. If you bounce someone who is particularly good at defensive moves, save the film. Then watch the film from their perspective to see how they are evading you.
See if you can get some AH films from Latrobe, Tongs, Violator (and many others) who consistently put themselves in defensive flying situations and have mastered the subtleties of defensive flying. I prefer Aces High films to YouTube videos, because you can turn on trails to see the flight paths, pause and look at distances and relative air-speeds and watch it from external view, the defenders cockpit and the attackers cockpit all in one film.
Most of all, remember that there is never "one correct move" because there are so many variables. The strengths and weaknesses of your aircraft, the strengths and weaknesses of the attacker's aircraft, the aggressiveness of the attacker, how is the attacker engaging you (is he going for a long six attack or setting up a perch and making vertical attacks?), these all affect your decision-making. Another important consideration is the objective of your defensive maneuvers in the first place: are you simply trying to evade and extend out of enemy territory or a multi-con environment, or can you be more aggressive to press for a reversal and a kill without getting ganged/picked. Nothing is more frustrating than executing a perfect evasion and reversal for a shot, only to get towered by a second con as you are about to make your kill! The BRD (Barrel Roll Defense) certainly is an ACM to learn and practice, but how you execute it and how aggressive you get with the reversal are all based on the many variables mentioned above.
Lastly, remember that developing the timing and subtle differences between blowing excessive E to evade vs. making a con "just miss his shot" so you can reverse, will be a process that can take time and lots of practice. That is why it is best done in the Training Arena where you don't get shot down and have to re-plane -- so much more can be gained in a shorter period of time working with others in the TA.
Good luck! Hope this helps.
<S>
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Slade, if you are the Slade I fought a few time in a D9 you should turnfight more so you learn how to reverse the odds. You are way too conservative relying mostly on B&Zming and the D9 speed once you lost the advantage. The hell with score/landing and go for it, you will learn a lot in only a few hours. Also PM me when I'm online, I'll gladly go to the DA with you to practice. :cheers:
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My squad mate TinyDncr (formally Trogdor) and I often go to the DA to train. Talking through maneuvers and fights are so helpful and often more fun then flying in the LW arena. He hands my butt to me, but I've learned so much. PM me if you'd ever like to join us on TeamSpeak for some DA sessions!
It's walking the line between risk and proper discipline in the main arena that yields the most improvement and fun for me. I just got my ID back a couple of days ago and have been seeing how long I can go without loosing an airplane. A couple days in and I'm at 25 kills, 17 sorties flown/landed and I'm bored to death!
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I just got my ID back a couple of days ago and have been seeing how long I can go without loosing an airplane. A couple days in and I'm at 25 kills, 17 sorties flown/landed and I'm bored to death!
I got to 202 once and it was the most boring and nerve racking month ever. I died before the month ended so it wasn't even a perfect month.
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When someone dives on you you can generally out turn them if you're at cruising speed and they're much faster than you are, so basically you need proper timing for your break turn.
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Great posts thanks all. You're right - I can see it would have been better posted in the Help Forum.
Frenchy my game name is X15 and I rarely fly the 190d9. Point taken. :aok
I really like the 190-a5 though! :rock
I know the BBS is limited to text descriptions and\or images of maneuvers. Still it can be very helpful and others can learn from this stuff too.
I tend to fly midwar planes...as compared to latewar monsters. To be successful in those to me is more fun. In them however you can always come in from 18k dive on an enemy (AKA bounce) and run. I'd rather come in at 10k and go toe-to-toe with them. Plus you get to target faster. Thus this post countering one of the predominant maneuvers used against you.
Caveat: If I am facing a horde I'll fly something fast with good guns.
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Actually, the situation you described is one of my favorites.
As soon as you see the con, go level (if your not already) for speed. When I see them diving, I start a gentle turn that I tighten slowly as they approach. Depending on the situation, I don't start the turn until they are around 2K out. As they get to 1k, I am giving them a full top view of the plane making them think they have an easy shot. The problem is, they are frequently too fast to pull enough lead and keep up with my turn. That's usually enough to thwart their attack, but getting them to miss is only half of my goal. The other half is to get a reversal.
To get the reversal, just as they get into gun range, go wings level, and pull up. Usually, they are pulling lead, and you are under their nose, and they don't see, or can't react to your change. The next step is to continue the roll, and watch them pass under you. Keep rolling and you are now behind them, offering you a snap shot. Often however, they are SOOO much faster than you, they blow by, and zoom climb. Your next thing is to start a low E turn away from the con. This will provide more distance, allowing you to do a slow climb, decreasing their advantage on their next pass. I keep doing this, changing directions (left/right) slowly bleeding their E. Frequently, after a few passes, they lose all their advantage, and now I am on their 6.
If you want a demonstration, PM me, and I will be glad to show you how I do it, and how I defend against it so I don't become a victim of my own move.
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I had three 262s bounce my P-38 on the deck last year. I killed one. Sent the second one home smoking before the third one got me.
As Scca, it can be great fun.
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Being low and outnumbered is what the MA is all about. Embrace the angry swarm, it is just love misguided by envy.
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If you see Lazer ,Yucca, Shuffler, Dodger , Drano.....(I could keep naming a lot of others but these are who im around the most ) I'd ask to join their plane . They always seem to fly low into the type of situation you describe and usually land a bunch of kills in the process.
It amazes me how they turn the tables on eny aircraft with alt and E the way they do......its almost a disadvantage to have Alt and E on these type of players lol.
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Drano? You have GOT to be kidding! :rofl
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The history of my suckage is well documented going back, well, quite a number of years.
But I love you too Tumor!
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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If you see Lazer ,Yucca, Shuffler, Dodger , Drano.....(I could keep naming a lot of others but these are who im around the most ) I'd ask to join their plane . They always seem to fly low into the type of situation you describe and usually land a bunch of kills in the process.
It amazes me how they turn the tables on eny aircraft with alt and E the way they do......its almost a disadvantage to have Alt and E on these type of players lol.
I see that too.
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It also depends what plane you're in, what your options have, and your E state of course.
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It also depends what plane you're in, what your options have, and your E state of course.
E state is for women
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Drano? You have GOT to be kidding! :rofl
I'll stand behind my statement...... seen him fly into a many fights low, in one of the biggest targets in there (fighter wise) and come out the side smelling like a rose.