Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Viper61 on December 05, 2015, 11:19:16 AM
-
CM's:
Your scenario's could and would be more entertaining if the scenario's were adjusted to fit the numbers attending the FSO. Take the current scenario each side has 3 targets to defend and attack equals 6 targets in total. Divide by the normal FSO numbers over the last few months (about 100 per side) and you end up with about 16 pilots at each location. That's not as fun as it could be. In fact i could get into much larger fights in the Late War Arena escorting the 49th or FB's missions.
Everyone here loves a good fight, but the larger they are the better they get in nearly very instance. Scenario designs should be set up so that there is at least 30 pilots at each objective and preferably about 40 and that's for each side. I understand the uncontrollable areas like server issues, turn out and CIC plans.
Larger forces allow for more elaborate plans, coordination, timing, deception, scouting, layered offensive and defensive tactics. Right now we have little or none of that. My point - For Frame 1 the ALLIED side had some issues with getting the Op Ord out in time, so a last minute planner stepped in to assist (Kudos's to all). Reality of it was that the plan on Friday morning would have looked like a plan if planned 4 days earlier. I know as I started to pull together some planning options on Thursday morning and really couldn't come up much past divide up the guys and cover 6 target areas with 16 guys each. The CIC planning and coordination's followed by multi-squad level operations is what separates the FSO from everything else in the AHII. We don't have that currently, please fix.
The current scenario really shouldn't have more than 2 or 3 targets (offensive and defensive) per side. My recommendation as the Germans were on the offensive during this period and location. Have the AXIS attack 2 and defend 1, Have the Russians defend 2 and Attack 1. Give points to destroyed targets to the attacker and not destroyed targets to the defender, and all is even. You don't have to change the scenario just decrease the target areas by 50%.
You want larger FSO turn outs. Help me to recruit - Make every FSO operation BIG and that will attract players even if only once to watch 60-100 bombers coming into a target.
-
The current setup is a reflection of the tactical level fighting on the Eastern Front. It was not like an 8th Air Force mission with large raids but more akin to covering the entire "front". Somewhat similar to the Western Front in WW1. So its a different tempo.
That said...we always look at the FSO #s and adjust the target #s. Sometimes we go for more or less. Currently we go between 4 and 6 targets total with the player base at @ 225.
We get that some players prefer larger fights and OOBs to coordinate.
Later. :salute
-
CM's:
Your scenario's could and would be more entertaining if the scenario's were adjusted to fit the numbers attending the FSO. Take the current scenario each side has 3 targets to defend and attack equals 6 targets in total. Divide by the normal FSO numbers over the last few months (about 100 per side) and you end up with about 16 pilots at each location. That's not as fun as it could be. In fact i could get into much larger fights in the Late War Arena escorting the 49th or FB's missions.
Everyone here loves a good fight, but the larger they are the better they get in nearly very instance. Scenario designs should be set up so that there is at least 30 pilots at each objective and preferably about 40 and that's for each side. I understand the uncontrollable areas like server issues, turn out and CIC plans.
Larger forces allow for more elaborate plans, coordination, timing, deception, scouting, layered offensive and defensive tactics. Right now we have little or none of that. My point - For Frame 1 the ALLIED side had some issues with getting the Op Ord out in time, so a last minute planner stepped in to assist (Kudos's to all). Reality of it was that the plan on Friday morning would have looked like a plan if planned 4 days earlier. I know as I started to pull together some planning options on Thursday morning and really couldn't come up much past divide up the guys and cover 6 target areas with 16 guys each. The CIC planning and coordination's followed by multi-squad level operations is what separates the FSO from everything else in the AHII. We don't have that currently, please fix.
The current scenario really shouldn't have more than 2 or 3 targets (offensive and defensive) per side. My recommendation as the Germans were on the offensive during this period and location. Have the AXIS attack 2 and defend 1, Have the Russians defend 2 and Attack 1. Give points to destroyed targets to the attacker and not destroyed targets to the defender, and all is even. You don't have to change the scenario just decrease the target areas by 50%.
You want larger FSO turn outs. Help me to recruit - Make every FSO operation BIG and that will attract players even if only once to watch 60-100 bombers coming into a target.
I would have to tend to agree with the target numbers, and airframe type numbers at times as well. It seems we are trying to do as much today as we were asked to 4-5 years ago, but do it with less. I'm not saying it is not possible to accomplish that, but there are times when it is for sure.
As far as "bigger turnout" goes? Well in some setups I suspect it could have an effect on them, but at other times I do not think the effect would be there at all.
An example of where I think more targets was a bad move is below:
Last month we suddenly saw the target number increase after frame 2, and frame 3 saw a very lopsided end result that I believe was due to that extra target being added, or having to be defended. People got spread very thin it seemed to me.
I also do not agree with the numbers we are seeing lately of airframes and the min and max numbers being placed on basically all of them, save one or two ocassionally. I can be very tough for Cic's having to meet those numbers.
Yet as a designer (CM) I also get that you want to make sure you include all available airframes that were involved in that area of operations.
Just for an example, in this setup.
The need for 3 axis bombers with minimums just is not there to me, but maybe that is just me :headscratch:
There is no way I would send 10 Stukas to a target without at least 10 escorts and that would be only if it was my own squad in the Stukas. Realistically, I would send no less than 15 escorts because a Stuka is basically totally defenseless, so why would I want to send an entire squad to a sure death, and possible mission failure?
Now add in that a Cic also has to send in 10 Ju-88's and 10 HE-111's.
Said Cic has now tied up at least 60 pilots right there and in probably at least 5 airframe types.
Now lets say on a given night that particular side only has 90 players show up. You have 30 left to defend 3 targets, and if one of those squads is a 11-15, you can end up with literally 7-8 defending against an incoming strike (potentially 50 airframes). That is a tough gig for any squad to pull off.
That all said, I will say this. I think ( not sure but I think it anyways) that CM's also take into account the fact they want the setup constructed in such a way that CiC's have to think and be "creative" as it were. Which it should be be that way.
I can appreciate for sure the work you all put into making this happen for all of us :salute, but maybe a few tweaks might not be such a bad thing when it comes to target numbers?
That's just my $.02 on the subject.
For all the CM'c and Cic's :cheers: This Bud's for you :aok
:salute
JDOG
G3-MF Ops
-
Squire and JDog good points and comments
Squire - I get the tactical setup for the current time period in Russia. I'm not that interested in historical accuracy or recreating more exact set ups. I'm not sure of how many others flying the FSO are that concerned about the accuracy either. To most, just match the correct planes, set up a scenario (targets) in which we can concentrate forces into an area and have a get time.
Also you could set this up like a late war Germany scenario. I for one would love to see the AXIS side attacking Russian targets with 60 sets of HE-111's escorted by 30 109's and the Russians defending with 40-50 Yaks with a few P-40's and P-39's for good measure. Now that would be fun!!
I know the CM's have a ruff job and the pay sucks also :lol Appreciate what you and the guys do. I just would like to see and participate in more scenario's with out of the box thinking. These scenario's have been played over and over again with little changes. Its time to "what if it a bit" in my opinion.
And on that note the Dec scenario's in times gone past were the "What if" scenario's like BOB 1946 style etc. Its time to give the Germans some B-24 stand ins for Condors and Lend Lease B-29's and P-51's to the Russians. And thanks to a technical glitch the Germans started mass producing ME 262's in 1942. HO HO HO lets have fun!!!! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
-
For Frame 3, each side will have two targets to hit and two assets to defend. We'll see how that changes the fights.
:salute
-
Thank you Mr. Bino :aok
-
For Frame 3, each side will have two targets to hit and two assets to defend. We'll see how that changes the fights.
:salute
This is an especially good move considering the probable population drop because of the new Star Wars movie being released that day.
I also agree with the Viper's main point. Although, this setup is ok because it favors lighter, tactical strike aircraft
-
Funny. Even though Frame Three had it's number of objectives reduced to two per side, I saw far fewer enemies last night than the first two frames. V76 was only attacked by nine Il2's last night.
-
Funny. Even though Frame Three had it's number of objectives reduced to two per side, I saw far fewer enemies last night than the first two frames. V76 was only attacked by nine Il2's last night.
Mass disco may have had something to do with that.
-
It was over before the disco.
-
It was over before the disco.
All we saw was the Il2s also and waited after disco for second attack that didn't materialize.
And sorry about last night, Wiley is being flogged as we speak. :devil :cheers:
-
Go easy on Wiley, I flew right in front of him. :salute
At first I thought the tailgunner on the IL2 got me, but the rounds hit too hard. I was like, "When the heck did Il2's get 20mm tailguns?" :devil
-
The second hit on didn't happen on 76 because after the disco we went off to rearm and reup and you lot didn't give us a chance to get back there!
You were still fighting the same people so that part didn't matter.
This one needs a major rejig.
The Allies never had enough people throughout. Numbers were low all three frames. I don't know why but I suspect that given the rides on offer people just lost enthusiasm. 30 minutes in on the first 2 frames and Axis had 40+ more people the air (usually more). It's silly. It just takes the enjoyment out as one side can't find a fight and the other can't find one worth having. FSO should be a fun contest not a turkey shoot.
The other threads around this one are talking about squads getting too many bomber rides. This one might have been helped by one less target and a reduced requirement for bombers. Too many people find something else to do if they are getting a large proportion of heavies in their orders.
The quality disparity between aircraft types also has to be addressed by an increase in numbers on the Allied side or finding a plane to balance the contest. This is similar to mid war Pacific events where there must be at least a numbers advantage to the Axis to make it worth turning up. Flying torches against much better planes tests the resolve of the participants.
Any of these FSO's where one side has the lesser ride plus a numbers disadvantage needs close attention.
Of course, I enjoyed it, as always. :)
-
The second hit on didn't happen on 76 because after the disco we went off to rearm and reup and you lot didn't give us a chance to get back there!
You were still fighting the same people so that part didn't matter.
But your squad had P-40s. If you were escorting the CJs you would have been there during their attack. What other ord attacking aircraft were slated to hit 76? There was more than enough time to relaunch the discoed pilots and make the attack run. And Sukov was the only guy from my squad to frie jagd after the disco, the rest guarded 76. That was mostly Jg11 you encountered.
-
We weren't escorting.
Our orders were clearly understood. Even if we had been escorting, we wouldn't have made it out of 76 and your night would've been over an hour earlier than it was. If we hadn't had the disco and had headed straight in, we might have been lucky enough to get away after bombing. Perhaps not and again the night ends early. We wouldn't have done a lot with the 500lb bombs anyway.
Time wasn't our problem after the disco. Getting back together and then surviving long enough to get to target was. While we were rearming we had 109s flying through our ack and we weren't at a front line field.
The disparity in side numbers was horrible but it was still the best we enjoyed over 3 legs. Most times we checked we were 40-60 pilots less than the Axis. Yes that many! We were the last Allies flying. We ended after we had 2 undercarriage mishaps and a control failure. No choice in it. We were fully determined to head back and drop some bombs. The set up was never going to allow it to happen.
Axis were so desperate to find somebody to fight they never gave us a break. Who can blame them? There wasn't enough Allies to go round. You can't blame the guys that fought to the bitter end for the lack of a fight. :)
-
That was probably me flying through your ack. :devil
We waited a long time for another attack on 76 and finally gave up and headed for the nearest reported enemy. Found 4 or 5 (?) P40s between the vbase and your field. I kept pushing the 2 high ones when I saw I was closing. I was surprised but guess they were full of fuel. One broke off and 3 109s went after him and he put up a great fight. The other one turned and fought me and was a very tough fight. The other 3 109s arrived as I was trying to finish him right at your field. After my last pass I found myself over the end of your runway and had no choice but go through. Ditto hit the P40 and took the rest of his parts but he ditched on the runway. :aok
These last 2 fights made the night worthwhile somewhat for us. :salute
Who else was supposed to hit 76 besides the Il2s?
-
Well the 412th had no shortage of reds to shoot at defending was it 124? We had a large squad of Yak 7s come tooling around low at our field clearly just trying to get our attention. Most of us stayed on task and another flight at maybe 15k of
formations of TU2s came thru from the East. We laid into them. I got my engine oiled for the 2nd week in a row. Headed to help somebody with a Yak when my engine cut. I got nailed trying to glide home. Just then yet another group in pretty much all the Bostons there were showed up with escorts of their own!
Seemed a good chunk of what allies were flying by that target alone. We took 30 of em but sheesh!
The dogpile effect is another factor when limiting the number of targets.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
-
Frodo:
It was us (9GIAP) that was the other group supposed to strike at 76 with our P40s (there was only 6 of us). Claim Jumpers and 1841 had the Il2s. It was never going to be an epic bash at 76. Four of our planes discoed. We weren't keen to go there as it was on receiving a report of "20+ 109Fs defending". This figure was quite believable given that there was only two targets to defend. I was mulling on how to get some support for the attack when the disco happened. We were about 30 miles south at the time.
Steely and I stayed connected so we turned back to the east where I figured we could give help and get help. Arriving in the 154 area as our guys re-upped to the south, I spoke to Qbert the defence leader for that target. He told me that all the defenders were already down! At this time we saw 5 fresh trios of He111s making a run over the target (escorted) so we made a dummy pass at them and headed further east. This dragged fighters away from our guys trying to join us from the south.
We joined up and tried to head west when we encountered you lot coming east (and a couple heading home too). We fought our way back and tried to ditch the attention. As we found ourselves clear again we got a call from a Yak that he was seriously getting beaten up by some Stukas. We helped him and figured finally we had earned a grateful Yak escort to get us to 76! Steely and I were about 4 mins fuel so we had to rearm and this while everything around us was flashing. We stretched it to the south while the rest of the guys (still with nearly 100% fuel) tried to keep you off us. We got airborne just as JoeJoe was trying to land his remaining parts. We lost our Yak mate at the pad. We ditched the bombs (again) and circled the wagons in the ack wishing forlornly for WEP. Picko and LJ eventually ran out of manouvre space nearby and succumbed. Front lost his controls and wasn't able look anywhere but forward.
Give up? No way. Off to rearm again. Looking over our shoulders we tried to rush it. Steely tried to land without wheels (on top of me as well) and as I was scrambling to warn him I wiped mine off on the runway. At this time we had no serviceable planes left and as we had been the only Allies for the last 20 minutes it was game over for us.
Drano's comments indicate where the heavies were sent. The orders show that the same amount of players was sent to attack 24 as were retained to defend 132. That is a 4-6 squad, two 7-10 squads (in Buffs) and an escort of 11-15 in Yaks.
The problem wasn't the orders or the lack of effort by the Allies. It was simply that the Allied machines weren't up to the task they were given and the turnout (possibly because of this) was exceptionally low. There was never any lack of red dots for the Allies to admire.
-
Yea the set up was not very even. We only had 4 109s left after the disco and the oil hits by the IL2 gunners who did a great job.
The 4 of us were just glad we found something and your guys flew those P40s very well. :salute
We were all low on fuel and had to get out and barely made it home.
The Pacific events tend to be very lopsided as well. Maybe the CMs could take a few bombers out of the equation until numbers come back up?
Dantoo :cheers:
-
Sometimes it's a simple roll of the dice as to the feel of an FSO. The 56th felt like this was a good month and had success in all three frames flying three different aircraft.
The first frame we were in TU-2s. We elected to leave the formatins in the hangar and went with singles. Some of our Allied friends thought we were nuts but our reasoning was to deny he enemy additional points if we got in and allow us to put the forward firing 20mm to good use when we got light. It turned out to be a really smart move. We leveled 4 hangars and killed a few fighters on our way home.
Frame two. We were in Yaks. After a semi successful attempt at our initial objective, we rearmed and headed to where we thought the teeth of the Axis were. And we found it in a big way. We fell victim to the bait and bounce. Still no lack of targets and we gave better than we got. Probably our worst frame of the month although the Yak was arguably the best fighter available to the Allies.
Frame three was a mess. We were tasked with defense. We had a nice CAP set up at 20K+ In our P-39s. I think I was one of the first to fall victim to the mass boot. I managed to get back in the plane only to be booted again. My next logon found me in the tower waiting for the fields to be reopened. At that point it was a mad dash to get back to the objective. No one knew which end was up. Somehow we managed to down 24 enemy aircraft with our neutered (still don't understand lack of the 37mm option) P-39s.
The end result is a successful and fun month for the 56th in spite of the plane selections and numbers. FSO is definitely a mixed bag. Sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug. That's part of what makes it fun.
-
just spitballing here, but what if, and im not saying I would like this myself, but what if..... we had one target to attack and one target to defend? you could have massive bomber streams with escorts vs defenders. one big furball for both sides.
its just a question, it wont hurt you.... I promise.
-
just spitballing here, but what if, and im not saying I would like this myself, but what if..... we had one target to attack and one target to defend? you could have massive bomber streams with escorts vs defenders. one big furball for both sides.
its just a question, it wont hurt you.... I promise.
I think this last one had that potential until the mass boot. Before we go all or nothing, perhaps we should manage that in steps.
-
you cant manage a mass disco, wasn't the servers.
-
I'd be all for it, my only concern would be FR for lower performance people when you get ~200 planes in an area.
I'd take having to dumb down my graphics if it worked well though.
Wiley.
-
actually about 110 per target hehehehehe
-
you cant manage a mass disco, wasn't the servers.
Think you misunderstood. I'm not talking about managing the disco. I'm saying that this last run with two targets has the sort of potential you're looking for but didn't truly get tested because of the boot. Everything got spread out and most of the initial plans went completely out the window. Wiley is right. Putting 200 guys in a 25 mile grid could get taxing on system capabilities for many players.
-
I just have a Question for all the Die Hard FSO Players asking to readjust the Event and so On about numbers... As a Past CM who created events for FSO trust me it is hard each month to try and plan the target's and defense with falling FSO numbers for each side some events need the buff's and some events do not. But if we leave 1 or the other out we get yelled at for this was fair or unfair. The Players that call out for changes I would love to see them step up and come to the Dark side and Create the event's the FSO Admins but they all come up with the same excuse we do not have time to do this. Question for the Ones who say we do not have the time to create an event and think out numbers plus or on the minus side, do you all think the Cms have all the time in the world to figure this all out and have special Powers to see what is going to happen. We have Numbers for Certain Plane's and Buffs but after Frame 1 we can always Readjust the targets and the plane's but We Also Need CiC's who do not copy and paste orders and to Avoid the Same Squads getting Buffs for so many frames in a row.
End of Rant I just want the Dedicated FSO Players to look at this and think about it. CM's bust their Chops to make everyone happy
Oh btw Applications available for the FSO Admin Team if you guys want to take a shot to make everyone happy
Molsman
-
wow is that a "put up or shut up" rant mols?!!! :rofl
I think last weeks setup was perfect and the mass disco totally screwed up my super secret plan.
So instead I changed the plan and it worked out pretty good.
that being said, you cant manage and mass boot and we just have to deal with ever changing conditions
in the FSO setup. nothing is perfect and I think they run pretty good. personally I like the way they do things
and as you said, if you want to try your hand at setups, join the FSO team.
I would join them myself but im too busy herding cats with the AVA staff hehehehe.
at any rate it was a fun setup with some minor glitch's. keep up the good work boys, and tweek away when necessary!!
Merry Christmas to all!
-
There is only one thing to be learned from last week, the CM team is on the ball and will do everything possible to keep the players happy.
-
wow is that a "put up or shut up" rant mols?!!! :rofl
I think last weeks setup was perfect and the mass disco totally screwed up my super secret plan.
So instead I changed the plan and it worked out pretty good.
that being said, you cant manage and mass boot and we just have to deal with ever changing conditions
in the FSO setup. nothing is perfect and I think they run pretty good. personally I like the way they do things
and as you said, if you want to try your hand at setups, join the FSO team.
I would join them myself but im too busy herding cats with the AVA staff hehehehe.
at any rate it was a fun setup with some minor glitch's. keep up the good work boys, and tweek away when necessary!!
Merry Christmas to all!
I wasnt trying to refer to the Mass disco those things happen just tired of the CM's being bashed for this should be done this way or that way when trying to come up with new fresh material is hard enough and the low Numbers does not help either
Merry Christmas All and cya next year
Mols
-
I just have a Question for all the Die Hard FSO Players asking to readjust the Event and so On about numbers... As a Past CM who created events for FSO trust me it is hard each month to try and plan the target's and defense with falling FSO numbers for each side some events need the buff's and some events do not. But if we leave 1 or the other out we get yelled at for this was fair or unfair. The Players that call out for changes I would love to see them step up and come to the Dark side and Create the event's the FSO Admins but they all come up with the same excuse we do not have time to do this. Question for the Ones who say we do not have the time to create an event and think out numbers plus or on the minus side, do you all think the Cms have all the time in the world to figure this all out and have special Powers to see what is going to happen. We have Numbers for Certain Plane's and Buffs but after Frame 1 we can always Readjust the targets and the plane's but We Also Need CiC's who do not copy and paste orders and to Avoid the Same Squads getting Buffs for so many frames in a row.
End of Rant I just want the Dedicated FSO Players to look at this and think about it. CM's bust their Chops to make everyone happy
Oh btw Applications available for the FSO Admin Team if you guys want to take a shot to make everyone happy
Molsman
That argument doesn't work when CMs vote members in.
-
plan B. would be to make up a setup offline, figure out how you want it to run, and submit it to them to execute it for you, giving you the credit.....and the criticism. hehehe
-
plan B. would be to make up a setup offline, figure out how you want it to run, and submit it to them to execute it for you, giving you the credit.....and the criticism. hehehe
IIRC all setups/events are created in-house, no outside designs.
-
IIRC all setups/events are created in-house, no outside designs.
I have worked with a few players designing FSO setups over the years, the invitation exists for anyone out there to submit an idea. Honestly, It's just something that doesn't come across my "desk" very often and more often than not are just plane sets or ideas of plane sets, which are really a very small part of an FSO design.
-
id like to do a fso with those crazy biplanes, the ones with the laser machine guns.
-
I have worked with a few players designing FSO setups over the years, the invitation exists for anyone out there to submit an idea. Honestly, It's just something that doesn't come across my "desk" very often and more often than not are just plane sets or ideas of plane sets, which are really a very small part of an FSO design.
This is excellent news. I might have an idea or two kicking around... :airplane:
-
id like to do a fso with those crazy biplanes, the ones with the laser machine guns.
Actually... ...Why not a WWI scenario?? That could be fun. Quick and violent... Put the winds at about 15K
-
How about we announce what setup we have for the January FSO.... :aok
-
Actually... ...Why not a WWI scenario?? That could be fun. Quick and violent... Put the winds at about 15K
I agree. It would be fun. I wish there was more interest in WW1 fights.
-
FSO is strictly WW2. However the Combat Challenge series can color outside the margins...