Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: lyric1 on December 09, 2015, 10:19:50 PM
-
Been flying the KI-67 a few times recently & I noticed just how limited the front & rear nose guns are when it come to defense. Specifically the range of motion seems very restricted on these two guns.
I also have been looking at a lot of photos for future skins of these planes & while doing so I noticed that the nose & tail gun seems to share in common the one thing our AHII KI-67 doesn't.
For example our nose gun in the Plexiglas has ribs mounted & fixed in the horizontal & the tail gun has a total clear bubble with no ribs at all.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ahss279_zpsxvy4cibc.png) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ahss279_zpsxvy4cibc.png.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ahss280_zpsfirtyrww.png) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ahss280_zpsfirtyrww.png.html)
When you look at photos the ribs in the front turret of the Plexiglas the ribs are mounted in a number of positions in various angles :headscratch: Why?
Horizontal.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki67-9_zps069kmfkw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki67-9_zps069kmfkw.jpg.html)
Vertical.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/a0b8fda3-ce91-475b-8931-268b8b574d3c_zpssqlembrq.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/a0b8fda3-ce91-475b-8931-268b8b574d3c_zpssqlembrq.jpg.html)
Angle.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img182_zps9nx1bkyf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img182_zps9nx1bkyf.jpg.html)
The tail gun from the best picture I have just seems to be a cut away slot with no ribs as seen in the picture below & cut at the horizontal.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/abc_zpsapac5nok.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/abc_zpsapac5nok.jpg.html)
Vertical.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img183_zpshj2avo4u.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img183_zpshj2avo4u.jpg.html)
Angle.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img181_zpsncrcujhq.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img181_zpsncrcujhq.jpg.html)
So how is this supposed to work?
Well I think it is a design similar to the HE-111 nose gun like in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBhGp23NS_s
Funny enough our HE-111 has not this ability in the above video & I only just found that out today.
So it looks like the nose & tail gun should have Plexiglas turret on a bearing of some sort.
I have a few Japanese magazines & I looked into them to see what I could find on the matter & I found a few interesting cut away drawings.
That do seem to support this.
Front Nose.
Looks to have a bearing design & handles to move the entire turret about like in the HE-111 video.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img184_zpsiuhkvnmq.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img184_zpsiuhkvnmq.jpg.html)
Tail.
The drawing for the tail shows some metal support mounted around the Plexiglas slot & I think this would make sense if the barrels of the gun might be what moves the turret about in its 360 deg path since there is no handles.
The photos I have don't show this clearly but I think they would be there.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img185_zpsxh2vl46h.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img185_zpsxh2vl46h.jpg.html)
The above info is form a magazine printed in 2003 & I think what HTC used based off of what I have seen on the BBS is form a magazine called The Maru Mechanic #32 that was printed in 1982.
This info here is from that magazine with the gun arcs.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img186_zpsgrqhcweh.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img186_zpsgrqhcweh.jpg.html)
So if & when the KI-67 comes up for an update it looks like some of the information based off the 1982 magazine may be wrong & a thorough search for what is known today maybe needed. I know the allies captured a number of these & tested them so maybe the data exists some place on that.
I think the front gun at least might have had a pivot offset like the HE-111 in the video or the gun could move around in the slot some how like the wooden full size mock up seen in this photo.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img187_zpsbkn4enlk.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img187_zpsbkn4enlk.jpg.html)
Thoughts?
-
Very interesting. That tail gun is a puzzle.
-
Very interesting. That tail gun is a puzzle.
Agreed.
The front to me is even a bigger puzzle.
Also the video of the HE-111 has another one with the ventral gun.
Our AHII HE-111 has not got the range of movement as the real thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlJlOQcDAhE
-
After looking at all the photos I have where I can see the tail gun clearly there appears to be no ribbing at all only the Plexiglas dome & its mounting ring. Those photos that I can see are of 5 different aircraft.
The drawings maybe wrong as well on this?
Also found another drawing I have that I translated.
The bottom left drawing that says 可 動 砲 架 = Movable gun carriage. So it looks like the center ribbing has some method of sliding back & forth for the gun?
The center hole says 機 関 砲 マウント = Cannon mount.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img188_zpsyavwob7d.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img188_zpsyavwob7d.jpg.html)
Tried Translating some of this as well. :O
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/7e844a49-2806-4582-a5d1-3149f547d648_zpsnkoo1zbi.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/7e844a49-2806-4582-a5d1-3149f547d648_zpsnkoo1zbi.jpg.html)
全充移動用レール = Movement rails ?
靱性ガラス = Toughness glass. I assume armored glass
把 手 = Handle
取付ボルト = Mounting bolts
胴体前 部 = Front section
胴体前 端 = Fuselage before end?
回 転 環 = Rotation ring
固 定 環 = Fixed ring
球 軸 受 = Ball bearings
-
So the tail gunner has to rotate the Plexiglas to fire up or down? That looks like a terrible design: center gun, rotate Plexiglas to desired angle, point gun (hoping you got the right angle on the Plexiglas, and repeat every few tenths of seconds as your target is moving around? Or did the gun barrel rotate the Plexiglas as the gunner aimed the gun?
-
So the tail gunner has to rotate the Plexiglas to fire up or down? That looks like a terrible design: center gun, rotate Plexiglas to desired angle, point gun (hoping you got the right angle on the Plexiglas, and repeat every few tenths of seconds as your target is moving around? Or did the gun barrel rotate the Plexiglas as the gunner aimed the gun?
From what I can see in the pictures, you have to do it. The tail gun may be an exception though. But there is a little "play" with the gun before you had to move the ring again, if I am looking at the photo's correctly. Likely not even given a thought when doing it, they just did it and fired.
-
So the tail gunner has to rotate the Plexiglas to fire up or down? That looks like a terrible design: center gun, rotate Plexiglas to desired angle, point gun (hoping you got the right angle on the Plexiglas, and repeat every few tenths of seconds as your target is moving around? Or did the gun barrel rotate the Plexiglas as the gunner aimed the gun?
Looks like the barrel rotated the Plexiglas.
You can see in these two drawings the mount was a rather big device with enough ball bearings in the mounting ring I would say it would rotate effortlessly.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img189_zpsmybsuvur.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img189_zpsmybsuvur.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img190_zps2rfej15h.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img190_zps2rfej15h.jpg.html)
Looks like the front had a similar mount unfortunately there is no detail drawings like the rear.
Plus with what drawings I can find it appears to be a lighter & thinner arrangement that seems to match photos that I can find.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img191_zpsdluvu1bx.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img191_zpsdluvu1bx.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img192_zps7b64jahk.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img192_zps7b64jahk.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img193_zpsxoxvwd1a.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img193_zpsxoxvwd1a.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img194_zpso2v5f140.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img194_zpso2v5f140.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zps4tdslten.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zps4tdslten.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img196_zpsmzsu37ct.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img196_zpsmzsu37ct.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img197_zpsxexzksag.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img197_zpsxexzksag.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/f664ef84-1bd2-4acb-bb9e-2bf6b84c261d_zpsrz6x2q97.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/f664ef84-1bd2-4acb-bb9e-2bf6b84c261d_zpsrz6x2q97.jpg.html)
-
Maybe they just set it for air defense or ground attack.
-
Maybe they just set it for air defense or ground attack.
Cant rule that out. :aok
I did find what I was looking for with the translation of the movement rails. It appears the rails were mounted on the outside of the Plexiglas & the gun with its center hole mount slid from from one side of the rail to the other. Interestingly the rails are offset to the center of the bubble so they could slide further one way than the other.
You can see the rail offset with these two images.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/71d5582e-f590-4b3a-9550-d22cfc52f161_zpsiwbxb999.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/71d5582e-f590-4b3a-9550-d22cfc52f161_zpsiwbxb999.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpg.html)
Also in the first image looks like there is two Plexiglas insets that slid & kept the wind out when the gun was pivoted.
This image has what I was looking for these are new aircraft before the guns were installed.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img199_zpsgqyjfc5y.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img199_zpsgqyjfc5y.jpg.html)
When you crop the photo you can see one of these Plexglas insets at its full travel below the nose. Proof positive I would say that the gun slid in these rails. :aok
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img199%20a_zpse4y2zvsy.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img199%20a_zpse4y2zvsy.jpg.html)
Question is now are the drawing with the nose gun arcs correct?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/775dec2b-2b77-4b25-9c45-6a9ff5f53710_zpsgdbzvh0o.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/775dec2b-2b77-4b25-9c45-6a9ff5f53710_zpsgdbzvh0o.jpg.html)
Seems a little strange you only get 50 DEG in the vertical & 90 DEG in the horizontal with a turret that was mounted on bearings that looks to pivot 360 DEG.
Plus the front gun to me at least appears to have the same range of motion in the slot regardless of what position it is in when it come to the degrees the turret is set at?
Yet the rear with the similar design except for the rail offset has a full 80 DEG in both directions.
-
Tail.
The drawing for the tail shows some metal support mounted around the Plexiglas slot & I think this would make sense if the barrels of the gun might be what moves the turret about in its 360 deg path since there is no handles.
The photos I have don't show this clearly but I think they would be there.
Found a photo showing the metal around the slots of the rear gun turret. It is of one of the prototypes I still have not found this on any other KI-67 that I can see the tail of. Maybe it was done away with at some point after the first few?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img200_zpsbp4bjnwf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img200_zpsbp4bjnwf.jpg.html)
-
Your link is not showing from my browser. You can click on it and go to your source.
-
Your link is not showing from my browser. You can click on it and go to your source.
Everything is visible on my end?
-
Now it shows up after I went to your source to look.
-
I can see them all, interresting read.
I was thinking, could the lengh of the back of the gun and the position of the gunner be limiting factors? I mean by sliding the bubble downward maybe you could achieve 60 degrees, but in practice was it usable in A2A combat with a single crew in the turret?
-
I can see them all, interresting read.
I was thinking, could the lengh of the back of the gun and the position of the gunner be limiting factors? I mean by sliding the bubble downward maybe you could achieve 60 degrees, but in practice was it usable in A2A combat with a single crew in the turret?
From what I know of the gunners they just sat on a mat you could be right though. The limiting factor I think would be the fixed point of the gun where it pivots in the vertical. You have a bracket that is either side of the gun & depending on where it is fixed & the shape design of that bracket & the gun may be the limiting factors. The front bracket & the rear are clearly not the same & maybe this is why one has a better traverse than the other in the vertical.
No clear images or drawings of the front gun arrangement to know exactly how it is done.
-
Perhaps pressure perpendicular to the gun slot will rotate the bubble.
-
Perhaps pressure perpendicular to the gun slot will rotate the bubble.
The rear absolutely. :aok
The front I think has a combination barrel pressure & handles to help rotate.
-
Wheels off of a Ki-67 video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClcZUfaenxg
-
The question is now is this drawing with the nose gun arcs correct?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/775dec2b-2b77-4b25-9c45-6a9ff5f53710_zpsgdbzvh0o.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/775dec2b-2b77-4b25-9c45-6a9ff5f53710_zpsgdbzvh0o.jpg.html)
Found this on a Japanese site the gun arcs per this drawing don't match the above sketch.
The first block of text says 機首 銃座 = Nose Turret.
The remaining text for the nose gun says.
水平方向 = Horizontal direction.
垂直方向 = Vertical direction.
1時 = 1 o'clock
11時 = 11 o'clock
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/gun%20%20arc%20ki67_zpspygl9wtc.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/gun%20%20arc%20ki67_zpspygl9wtc.jpg.html)
Little confused as to how this is applicable at the moment :headscratch: Seems that depending what side of the slot the gun is in it will get 45 deg on one side & 50 deg on the other regardless of being horizontal or vertical. That would make sense since the rails & the slot are offset in relation to the Plexiglas center.
Keep in mind the turret is on a ball bearing race that may have 360 deg rotation?
Took a clear protractor & tried lining up the gun mounting system that is shown with the yellow arrow in the first photo & that is shown again in the 2nd photo where the gun is not installed.
When you line up the mounting bracket in a free lying state it is at 45 deg with no one pushing it down & if you line up the hole in the Plexiglas where the barrel fits it looks to have 50 deg.
This new information seems close to what we should have rather than the first gun arc drawing.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zpsif6ey1jw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zpsif6ey1jw.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img199_zpsgqyjfc5y.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img199_zpsgqyjfc5y.jpg.html)
-
Little confused as to how this is applicable at the moment
I think I get it now. :headscratch:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/gun%20%20arc%20ki67%20b_zpsbdnbtf44.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/gun%20%20arc%20ki67%20b_zpsbdnbtf44.jpg.html)
-
Couple of other observations I noticed for the rear gun.
回転風防 = Rotation windshield. No doubt now that the domes rotated. :aok
打殼入れ = Hit shells purse/Shell catch bag?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/65836451-db17-4fd6-97de-a864d8eb814c_zpslcur5rba.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/65836451-db17-4fd6-97de-a864d8eb814c_zpslcur5rba.jpg.html)
Can see the catch bag well in this photo.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/5f9d0ec2-64df-4c5d-a49c-1252530f05f7_zpshcpf7n5u.jpgoriginal_zpswms9l3ag.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/5f9d0ec2-64df-4c5d-a49c-1252530f05f7_zpshcpf7n5u.jpgoriginal_zpswms9l3ag.jpg.html)
Also a bag mounted on the front gun.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/tumblr_nwrew3SHr31rwiivfo1_500%20a_zpshadyioet.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/tumblr_nwrew3SHr31rwiivfo1_500%20a_zpshadyioet.jpg.html)
-
From what I can see in the pictures, you have to do it.
Found two interesting photos when you zoom in on the front gun these two images clearly show some kind of mechanical mechanism possibly attached to the outer metal rotating ring. I would say the nose turret drawing with the handles that clearly would have been rotated by hand & or the gun barrel is wrong .
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/605ab499-de05-4eff-be83-0bf4bd77efee_zpsoyui9u0v.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/605ab499-de05-4eff-be83-0bf4bd77efee_zpsoyui9u0v.jpg.html)
First off here is a close up of the bracket that the gun pivoted on for horizontal & vertical movement on this wrecked KI-67. It is not attached to the outer turret ring at all.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zps4tdslten.jpgoriginal%20c_zpsjlljgknz.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zps4tdslten.jpgoriginal%20c_zpsjlljgknz.jpg.html)
I marked the bracket in the next image with yellow.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zps4tdslten.jpgoriginal_zpshpnl06vf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zps4tdslten.jpgoriginal_zpshpnl06vf.jpg.html)
Here is the first image I mentioned.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/2bc2094a-0271-40bc-8bfb-1d8a42e7763e_zpsvsrschhe%20a_zpsutxu16xi.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/2bc2094a-0271-40bc-8bfb-1d8a42e7763e_zpsvsrschhe%20a_zpsutxu16xi.jpg.html)
The second.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpg.html)
The first image I marked in different colours so they will make sense in the second photo.
The yellow markings show the same bracket that is in yellow from the wrecked ki-67 but only half of it is visible in this photo.
The two red marked brackets that are either side of the gun are attached to a square plate that I marked in blue.
Note also the slot the gun sits in is in its vertical position at this point in time.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/2bc2094a-0271-40bc-8bfb-1d8a42e7763e_zpsvsrschhe%20a_zpsutxu16xi.jpgoriginal_zpsojfhimbj.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/2bc2094a-0271-40bc-8bfb-1d8a42e7763e_zpsvsrschhe%20a_zpsutxu16xi.jpgoriginal_zpsojfhimbj.jpg.html)
The second photo all the parts I mentioned & colour coded are the same. Yet now the red brackets are turned to the aircraft's left 90 DEG & the square plate that is marked in blue is no longer at the very bottom.
Note the angle of the gun slot now? It is horizontal.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpgoriginal%20a_zpsws3itm7w.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpgoriginal%20a_zpsws3itm7w.jpg.html)
I think you would have to be a mechanical engineer to try & figure out how this front gun turret & all its moving parts work together without an original blueprint. :headscratch:
The only line drawing I can find shows the bracket in yellow & only that. :(
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/f66fb7e4-524c-4bca-b048-57693d3bbe74_zpsvxvsyjsz.jpgoriginal_zpsj13gee8n.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/f66fb7e4-524c-4bca-b048-57693d3bbe74_zpsvxvsyjsz.jpgoriginal_zpsj13gee8n.jpg.html)
-
From what I know of the gunners they just sat on a mat.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/KI-67%201VVV%20VBAC_zpshszkgjqb.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/KI-67%201VVV%20VBAC_zpshszkgjqb.jpg.html)
-
Lyric,
It makes sense that the plexi rotated independent of the gun and had it's own method to rotate,ie those handles!
If the gun rotated the plexi then the gun would have to rotate and the gunsite would be all but useless. I was looking closely ay 1 of your early pix and it pretty much looked like the gun mount was fixed top and bottom to the plane,right where the part of the plexi that rotates.
Those handles would need to be close at hand so the gunner could easily move it to the desired position to get the best range of motion for the type of attack he was trying to defend against.
Atleast thats my take on it,great post!
:salute
-
Lyric,
It makes sense that the plexi rotated independent of the gun and had it's own method to rotate,ie those handles!
If the gun rotated the plexi then the gun would have to rotate and the gunsite would be all but useless. I was looking closely ay 1 of your early pix and it pretty much looked like the gun mount was fixed top and bottom to the plane,right where the part of the plexi that rotates.
Those handles would need to be close at hand so the gunner could easily move it to the desired position to get the best range of motion for the type of attack he was trying to defend against.
Atleast thats my take on it,great post!
:salute
That was somewhat my thought's as well until this photo I found that I posted before. With the attachment brackets to the turret ring marked in blue & red. The yellow bracket is mounted at the top & bottom & pivoted left to right. I believe half way down the yellow coloured bracket is a pin that the gun was mounted with & allowed the up & down motion to take place by pivoting on that pin.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/2bc2094a-0271-40bc-8bfb-1d8a42e7763e_zpsvsrschhe%20a_zpsutxu16xi.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/2bc2094a-0271-40bc-8bfb-1d8a42e7763e_zpsvsrschhe%20a_zpsutxu16xi.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/2bc2094a-0271-40bc-8bfb-1d8a42e7763e_zpsvsrschhe%20a_zpsutxu16xi.jpgoriginal_zpsojfhimbj.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/2bc2094a-0271-40bc-8bfb-1d8a42e7763e_zpsvsrschhe%20a_zpsutxu16xi.jpgoriginal_zpsojfhimbj.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpgoriginal%20a_zpsws3itm7w.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpgoriginal%20a_zpsws3itm7w.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpg.html)
Also there is two somewhat different drawings of the Plexiglas turret one shows handles the other not.
What one is correct?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img184_zpsiuhkvnmq.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img184_zpsiuhkvnmq.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img188_zpsyavwob7d.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img188_zpsyavwob7d.jpg.html)
I think there maybe more to it but I can't tell for sure. The rail with the two movable Plexiglas inserts either side of the gun is the mystery & being offset from center :headscratch: why? I think the center piece that the gun protrudes through along with the two inserts is all one part & the gun has to be what moves this piece inside of the rail system. Then with a pivot pin inside the yellow bracket & it pivots at the top and bottom from left to right all the weight & the motion of the gun is supported by the yellow bracket. Then a ball bearing mounted ring on the turret just pivots depending what way the gunner pushes the gun stock. The blue & red parts that clearly do attach to the turret ring is confusing to say the least.
They could have just done a slot like the rear gun with no rails a lot less complicated.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b7e397a7-3543-4993-a3f4-fb7dea62ef7d_zpsslhxtpyl.jpgoriginal_zpsd0aehj03.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b7e397a7-3543-4993-a3f4-fb7dea62ef7d_zpsslhxtpyl.jpgoriginal_zpsd0aehj03.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img199%20a_zpse4y2zvsy.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img199%20a_zpse4y2zvsy.jpg.html)
Four KI-67's were bought back to the USA at wars end & all are long scrapped.
I contacted the Smithsonian to see if any documents were saved I know the military did testing.
Usually takes about 6 weeks to get an answer.
-
Looks to be a perplexing dilemma.... :devil
If the gun is rotated wouldnt the gunsite rotate with it?
If the gunsite is moved from 12 oclock to say 3 oclock or 90 degrees it would be useless IMHO. It looks to me like the gunmount is fixed to the inside ring and the plexi is connected with the bearing race to the outside of it.
But I will bow to your experience and wait till you get any info from Smithsonia!
:salute
-
Maybe the barrel is mounted off center in the rear bubble so that movement from the barrel in any direction will more easily rotate the bubble, with the handles there in case it binds a little.
The front looks like the few degrees of travel where the barrel goes through the bubble is enough "off center force" to rotate the bubble where the rear needed to be asymmetrical to work right.
Great thread!
-
Looks to be a perplexing dilemma.... :devil
If the gun is rotated wouldnt the gunsite rotate with it?
If the gunsite is moved from 12 oclock to say 3 oclock or 90 degrees it would be useless IMHO. It looks to me like the gunmount is fixed to the inside ring and the plexi is connected with the bearing race to the outside of it.
:salute
I see I didn't explain myself correctly from my previous post. :headscratch: Because I am confused by your answer.
So lets look at the actual sights of the gun first.
The purple arrows show the sighting ring & the aiming point on the gun barrel. The light green arrow is the arm that holds the sighting ring. They did not have a heads up display type gun sight like we do in AHII.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/KI-67%20VVVV%20VBAC_zpsjgr9kf0m.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/KI-67%20VVVV%20VBAC_zpsjgr9kf0m.jpg.html)
Now the sighting ring and arm that holds the sighting ring it is not mounted on the actual gun at all. Its mounted on a cradle that the gun slides into.
You can see the cradle & sight ring in this picture that has yet to have a gun mounted in it.
Also this cradle is what pivots for the up & down motion of the gun. I painted an approximate location of the pivot point as it would be hidden from view in this image.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img199_zpsgqyjfc5y.jpgoriginal_zpsjfczzmnc.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img199_zpsgqyjfc5y.jpgoriginal_zpsjfczzmnc.jpg.html)
Now this cradle sits inside of the long rectangular yellow marked bracket with the radius on each end & it pivots at the top & bottom via a bearing & it gives the side to side motion.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zps4tdslten.jpgoriginal%20c_zpsjlljgknz.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zps4tdslten.jpgoriginal%20c_zpsjlljgknz.jpg.html)
From the gunners perspective with the right left arrows.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zps4tdslten.jpgoriginal%20c_zpsjlljgknz.jpgoriginal%20a_zps2gpjcxm3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img195_zps4tdslten.jpgoriginal%20c_zpsjlljgknz.jpgoriginal%20a_zps2gpjcxm3.jpg.html)
So the gun is fixed inside the cradle and has no ability at all to spin around like the HE-111 nose gun from the video I posted earlier in the thread. It can only pivot side to side & up & down.
So when the gunner has his shoulder on the stock he can rotate the gun in a circular motion up down left right & so on & so on.
The actual Plexiglas dome & it's metal ring is of course where the bearing race is located that is attached to the front of the fuselage.
The method of how the turret ring is moved is some how done I believe with the brackets marked in red & blue via the cradle & the motion of the gunner with the end of the stock of the gun.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpgoriginal%20a_zpsws3itm7w.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b91a2cea-ccd8-4e36-b302-b68fdcbb6100_zpsd6oxx2uo.jpgoriginal%20a_zpsws3itm7w.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/2bc2094a-0271-40bc-8bfb-1d8a42e7763e_zpsvsrschhe%20a_zpsutxu16xi.jpgoriginal_zpsojfhimbj.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/2bc2094a-0271-40bc-8bfb-1d8a42e7763e_zpsvsrschhe%20a_zpsutxu16xi.jpgoriginal_zpsojfhimbj.jpg.html)
How much motion the turret ring has in terms of degrees I don't know it may have 360 deg or less.
Now the rails on the dome are also on some kind of slide or a possible bearing surface as well.
As the gunner moves the gun & the outer turret bearing ring rotates it will also allow the slides to move in unison with the outer ring. :headscratch: Or so I believe.
I found the same image from two different books showing a broken turret & it confirms the Plexiglas inserts that slide on the rail are one piece as you can see it hanging off the gun barrel.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/broken%20nose%202_zpsugsuekua.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/broken%20nose%202_zpsugsuekua.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/broken%20nose_zpszhiw4l7c.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/broken%20nose_zpszhiw4l7c.jpg.html)
Also you can see the same bracket that attaches to the bearing ring in red that I have shown before that controls the movement of the front turret. I think from now on I will call it the wishbone for obvious reasons.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki%20broken%20t_zps02ma6h5a.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki%20broken%20t_zps02ma6h5a.jpg.html)
I hope I did better a better job this time with how I think this works. :aok
-
Maybe the barrel is mounted off center in the rear bubble so that movement from the barrel in any direction will more easily rotate the bubble, with the handles there in case it binds a little.
The front looks like the few degrees of travel where the barrel goes through the bubble is enough "off center force" to rotate the bubble where the rear needed to be asymmetrical to work right.
Quite possible. :aok
-
Lyric,
for some reason I had it in my head that the gun was rotated,as opposed to being slewed{if that's the correct term}
It's hard to see in the pix if the gunsite was on the mount or the gun so that's were I lost it,not you!
I would agree the offset may help moving the plexi and allow the gunner that extra 5 degrees were he would benefit from it the most...... Maybe...
I hope you get the info that clears this up,a simple yet complex thing,right up my alley!
:salute
-
I can say with some certainty that the books showing the front gun only had a slew in the vertical of +&- of 25 deg is most likely wrong.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/KI-67%20VVVV%20VB_zpshhrsdck2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/KI-67%20VVVV%20VB_zpshhrsdck2.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/775dec2b-2b77-4b25-9c45-6a9ff5f53710_zpsgdbzvh0o.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/775dec2b-2b77-4b25-9c45-6a9ff5f53710_zpsgdbzvh0o.jpg.html)
Taking another image of this white tailed KI-67 & cropping the nose cone down to the second image. I gave it to a squad mate who works with Cad Cam & asked what angle he found using the software.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki67-5_zpseamr5o2e.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki67-5_zpseamr5o2e.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/gun%20ki67%20a_zpsw2ldf6co.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/gun%20ki67%20a_zpsw2ldf6co.jpg.html)
His findings were -34 to -35 degrees.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/12562714_1695823040702320_796967984_o_zps3aeqqgss.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/12562714_1695823040702320_796967984_o_zps3aeqqgss.jpg.html)
One thing to keep in mind with the above image is that we don't know if that gun in the photo is at it's total slew downwards. It could possibly go downwards even more. If the turret can rotate 360 degrees with these findings it will also give us +34 to +35 degrees in the vertical.
Changing tact a little also found an image with a KI-67 with no nose gun in the cradle & you can see fairly well the wishbone fixture as I called it. After seeing this more complete view it's more like an X shaped bracket than a Y shaped one.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67%20gun_zpsg1e0i1ue.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67%20gun_zpsg1e0i1ue.jpg.html)
Colour coded it red like the other images of it.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67%20gun%20a_zpsykijai8r.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67%20gun%20a_zpsykijai8r.jpg.html)
It seems to be in a different location than those other images with the guns installed. That maybe why it is set so far back :headscratch: not attached to the gun yet?
-
Last image was gone?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67%20gun%20a_zpsnxwzqhcp.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67%20gun%20a_zpsnxwzqhcp.jpg.html)
-
Found a photo of a shot down KI-67 played with some Photobucket settings to get some light inside of the aircraft.
Decent view of the cradle the gun was clamped into.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/038b62a1-9684-4831-bcc7-c6a8e67600dc_zpsktqmtce5.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/038b62a1-9684-4831-bcc7-c6a8e67600dc_zpsktqmtce5.jpg.html)
-
Some photos of the types of bomb sights used on the KI-67.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/182-67fa7060ea_zpsvpileaet.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/182-67fa7060ea_zpsvpileaet.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/175-195c848f95_zps7ibykzh3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/175-195c848f95_zps7ibykzh3.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/176-1d6a06a177_zpspc0ysg7z.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/176-1d6a06a177_zpspc0ysg7z.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/177-8b9c3ea58a_zpszzbieu8w.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/177-8b9c3ea58a_zpszzbieu8w.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/594028a5-5266-4ff2-aefb-8a698af62723_zpsjzjcgl9z.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/594028a5-5266-4ff2-aefb-8a698af62723_zpsjzjcgl9z.jpg.html)
-
Few more bombsite images.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/type%2088%20b%20s_zpsnxnotqef.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/type%2088%20b%20s_zpsnxnotqef.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/320-193b5d26a3_zps9p7kfonw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/320-193b5d26a3_zps9p7kfonw.jpg.html)
A similar type it was not used on the KI-67 has a number of the same features though.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/site_zps0stdgyik.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/site_zps0stdgyik.jpg.html)
-
Great thread
Awesome thread! I wish the Ki67 would get an update, It's one of my favorite bombers and it needs an update.
The KI67 had a lot of great variants. I wish HTC would add them like we have the different variants of the b25. My favorite being the Ki-67-Ib: Late production model. Reinforced the tail gun turret (2 × 20 mm), I really like the Ki-109 too.
What are your sources? It's pretty hard to find stuff about the ki-67. On the wiki it stays the Indonesian air force had ki67s after the war but it doesn't have a citation and a quick google search didn't yield results. I wonder if there are any surviving planes that could be examined, In other threads there are modern pictures of aircraft when issues like this come up.
-
She's going to look SO GOOD once they get around to updating her. :x I just hope they find a way to get the nose cones to animate/work for better defensive coverage. :aok
EDIT: Tail as well. Tail cone moved around too.
-
Awesome thread! I wish the Ki67 would get an update, It's one of my favorite bombers and it needs an update.
The KI67 had a lot of great variants. I wish HTC would add them like we have the different variants of the b25. My favorite being the Ki-67-Ib: Late production model. Reinforced the tail gun turret (2 × 20 mm), I really like the Ki-109 too.
What are your sources? It's pretty hard to find stuff about the ki-67. On the wiki it stays the Indonesian air force had ki67s after the war but it doesn't have a citation and a quick google search didn't yield results. I wonder if there are any surviving planes that could be examined, In other threads there are modern pictures of aircraft when issues like this come up.
KI-109 Was only at prototype levels never seen combat. No KI-67's survive today all have been scrapped. Most of the sources are Japanese books. I have just about all of them printed that I am aware of. I found out recently that Mitsubishi has a small museum of sorts in Japan & have a number of blue prints on display I have wrote them to see what if anything I can do to get copies.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/IMG_98351_zpsd2i6dyo4.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/IMG_98351_zpsd2i6dyo4.jpg.html)
-
Have you tried contacting a former Japanese 67 gunner?
I don't know how you would, but I'm sure they could fill in the blanks.
-
Have you tried contacting a former Japanese 67 gunner?
I don't know how you would, but I'm sure they could fill in the blanks.
No would not know where to begin with that.
You have to remember a number of these were used in Kamikaze raids & most of the crews would be in the 90's now that survived the war.
-
Have you tried contacting a former Japanese 67 gunner?
I don't know how you would, but I'm sure they could fill in the blanks.
Found an interview with a crewman of a KI-67 suicide squadron from what I can make out his aircraft was one of the escort KI-67's.
Google translator is not that good on this but you can get the jest of it.
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://kousei.s40.xrea.com/xoops/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php%3Fviewmode%3Dflat%26topic_id%3D950%26forum%3D13&usg=ALkJrhgbaKcZipyg1T2WljBdFjtP5QSarQ
Found a site that has some more info on the attacks.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fevnara.blog.fc2.com%2Fblog-date-20151121.html&edit-text=&act=url
-
KI-67 Gyroscope.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600_zpsqxfg95s1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600_zpsqxfg95s1.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20b_zpswznmbozm.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20b_zpswznmbozm.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20g_zpsygzvwrv2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20g_zpsygzvwrv2.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20d_zpsj0dx3qjw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20d_zpsj0dx3qjw.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20c_zpsndj2nlm1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20c_zpsndj2nlm1.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20f_zpsrxej94w3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20f_zpsrxej94w3.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20a_zpsfj06ek1o.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20a_zpsfj06ek1o.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20e_zpsz5lg6s0m.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/s-l1600%20e_zpsz5lg6s0m.jpg.html)
-
Wheels off of a Ki-67 video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClcZUfaenxg
Tail wheel From the KI-67 video above & still shots below.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki_67_tail%20wheel__zpslfmzajuy.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki_67_tail%20wheel__zpslfmzajuy.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki_67_tail%20wheel_2_zpsqq2ez0v8.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki_67_tail%20wheel_2_zpsqq2ez0v8.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki_67_tail%20wheel_0_zpssbori5ky.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki_67_tail%20wheel_0_zpssbori5ky.jpg.html)
-
Lyric,
If you run across anything in your travels, photo, diagram, or translated technical description for IJN and IJA fixed gunsight reticles. I'll be happy to update anything I've created for AHIII with better info.
thank you... :O
-
Lyric,
If you run across anything in your travels, photo, diagram, or translated technical description for IJN and IJA fixed gunsight reticles. I'll be happy to update anything I've created for AHIII with better info.
thank you... :O
Will do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EayasHQYEGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFF-ptiS0uo
Kind of funny this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmsSHkYnjU0
http://home.f04.itscom.net/nyankiti/ki43-sub4-air%20gunnery.htm
-
Received documents from the Smithsonian here is a brief one about a wrecked KI-67 found in China.
https://www.scribd.com/document/329540277/e-Taic-s-15-Technical-Data-Ki-67-Peggy
-
Received documents from the Smithsonian here is a brief one about a wrecked KI-67 found in China.
https://www.scribd.com/document/329540277/e-Taic-s-15-Technical-Data-Ki-67-Peggy
First thing I noticed about the defensive guns all of them were belt fed for the 12.7mm guns.
Have not been able to find good photos of the waist fuselage guns at all.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/12.7_zpsn1x1nrhj.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/12.7_zpsn1x1nrhj.jpg.html)
There is a few drawings mostly of the 7.7mm gun and they were the drum feed type.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img372_zpsotxcm4qd.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img372_zpsotxcm4qd.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img373_zpsw55rz2hv.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img373_zpsw55rz2hv.jpg.html)
This cutaway drawing has shown the belt feed for the waist guns.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img002_zpslzaksgmw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img002_zpslzaksgmw.jpg.html)
The top turret was hydraulic all the rest were flexible. No assisted drive on them unlike the Betty for instance that had a front turret that was electric.
Self sealing fuel tanks that I did not know about as well. :headscratch:
Wonder if that is programed on the Peggy in AHIII?
Also noticed the rear gun support is very different than what we have in AHIII & what the drawings show.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/6-242a7ecda1_zpsnooiaiap.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/6-242a7ecda1_zpsnooiaiap.jpg.html)
The rear support frame looks very much the same as the front support frame.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/320f6e1d-5f9c-4345-be23-26e9ef58a7c9_zpsfi9wmgew.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/320f6e1d-5f9c-4345-be23-26e9ef58a7c9_zpsfi9wmgew.jpg.html)
What we have in game is identical to this drawing below a very sturdy frame that looks nothing like the image of the rear gun support frame above.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/65836451-db17-4fd6-97de-a864d8eb814c_zpsny3f2eoy.jpgoriginal_zpsuzprem3j.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/65836451-db17-4fd6-97de-a864d8eb814c_zpsny3f2eoy.jpgoriginal_zpsuzprem3j.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img189_zpsmybsuvur.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img189_zpsmybsuvur.jpg.html)
After looking at most of the images I have that show the rear gun frame the only one I have that is the same as the drawing is one of the prototypes.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img200_zpsbp4bjnwf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img200_zpsbp4bjnwf.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/c06ff331-3839-456e-a752-f8d3543df5fa_zpsmwqfh9hl.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/c06ff331-3839-456e-a752-f8d3543df5fa_zpsmwqfh9hl.jpg.html)
All the others show a slimmed down version.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/141-1268c97674_zpsl2aesrvz.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/141-1268c97674_zpsl2aesrvz.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/e15b4d29-888d-4714-9108-8ce55bf53461_zpsay8evn7j.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/e15b4d29-888d-4714-9108-8ce55bf53461_zpsay8evn7j.jpg.html)
This KI-67 Prior to shipping to the USA shows it best.
Also take note of the two floating grab handles the gunner used to pull himself up from his kneeling position.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/abc_zpsapac5nok.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/abc_zpsapac5nok.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b4dc871d-7a2a-4b52-bb5c-0d074340364c_zpsoet01a9k.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/b4dc871d-7a2a-4b52-bb5c-0d074340364c_zpsoet01a9k.jpg.html)
Clearly at some point there was a redesign of the support framing of the rear gun.
-
Received documents from the Smithsonian here is a brief one about a wrecked KI-67 found in China.
Service manual for the dorsal turret.
https://www.scribd.com/document/330111151/KI-67-Hiryu-Dorsal-Turret-Service-Manual
If SCRIBD is not working for you try link below.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/fi58t17smic73w3/KI-67+HIRYU+DORSAL+TURRET+SERVICE+MANUAL.pdf
-
Service manual for the aircraft.
https://www.scribd.com/document/330116604/Mitsubishi-KI-67-Hiryu-Aircraft-Service-Manual
If SCRIBD is not working for you try link below.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/cr42199qq1vr25y/Mitsubishi+KI-67+Hiryu+Aircraft+Service+Manual..pdf
-
Items have been removed from Scribd.
-
Items have been removed from Scribd.
Working on my end?
-
So what is the final verdict? It looks like with the mechanical drawings and pictures we can see how the rotating dome allowed the gunner a greater arc of fire, but is that reflected in our Ki-67 model in AH? Should we have a greater arc on the front & rear guns or not??
-
So what is the final verdict? It looks like with the mechanical drawings and pictures we can see how the rotating dome allowed the gunner a greater arc of fire, but is that reflected in our Ki-67 model in AH? Should we have a greater arc on the front & rear guns or not??
Front gun yes no doubt AHIII front turret is flat designed wrong rear gun?
There is nothing in the current documents I received showing any facts about the turrets ability's or drawings to support them.
-
OK - that is kind of what I thought but just wanted to make sure. Since I am sure that HTC is feverishly working on the Ki-67 update (made vastly simpler by the great data posted in this thread) I will eagerly await my new Peggy.
-
Always wondered if the waist guns slid on the mounting rail & the locking handle was for this purpose. After looking at some of the new images I found I would say no it is fixed in one spot and the handles are just to rotate the turret bubble out of the way so the gun can be deployed for action.
What gave it away was the domed rivets you can see in the drawing below.
It is like the rear mounting bar of the gun on the Betty locked into place by multiple rivets.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/sd_zpskbezs4tn.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/sd_zpskbezs4tn.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/Untitled_zps9uq1cwuu.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/Untitled_zps9uq1cwuu.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/canvas_zps4swm8j1j.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/canvas_zps4swm8j1j.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/rear%20betty%202_zpsv2s4tmjl.jpgoriginal_zpsic9cuet8.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/rear%20betty%202_zpsv2s4tmjl.jpgoriginal_zpsic9cuet8.jpg.html)
Few other images of the waist gun set up.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/Untitled_zpsk6jwlqkp.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/Untitled_zpsk6jwlqkp.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ser%20man_zps6pkoklxd.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ser%20man_zps6pkoklxd.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/seat%20belt_zpsabbk0w20.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/seat%20belt_zpsabbk0w20.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/da1_zpszkqw3okw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/da1_zpszkqw3okw.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/da_zps9lylxot3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/da_zps9lylxot3.jpg.html)
-
In the diagram where you pointed out the rivits in the side gun mount, part 7 looks like it could be an unlocking mechanism and handle (part 6) used to unlock and slide the whole pintle rig along the curved rail.
Thanks for posting this stuff lyric, I always look forward to your new posts.
~S~ Buck
-
In the diagram where you pointed out the rivits in the side gun mount, part 7 looks like it could be an unlocking mechanism and handle (part 6) used to unlock and slide the whole pintle rig along the curved rail.
Thanks for posting this stuff lyric, I always look forward to your new posts.
~S~ Buck
That is what I thought at first as well :headscratch: but no. The levers that you depress looks to unlock the mounting bar & allows it to act like a cam. When you rotate it inwards the turret portion rotates in and is pulled off then hung on the wall. There is a cable on a pulley with a piston like a screen door that keeps the tension. When the turret bubble is to be put back start the same process.
This view shows it a little better.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img372_zpsotxcm4qd.jpgoriginal_zpsbvhhzcma.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img372_zpsotxcm4qd.jpgoriginal_zpsbvhhzcma.jpg.html)
Also forgot to post this picture from the KI-67 Service manual.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/Untitled%20%20nn_zpst5wxz5ai.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/Untitled%20%20nn_zpst5wxz5ai.jpg.html)
-
Recently found a Japanese book on EBAY that I have been wanting for a while now.
It has an image I had not seen before.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img013_zpstskzketc.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img013_zpstskzketc.jpg.html)
This is one of the aircraft from a training squadron.
Again the rear gun mount support is a very much scaled down version to what we have in game,as well as virtually all Japanese drawings like the images below.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img189_zpsmybsuvur.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img189_zpsmybsuvur.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img186_zpsgrqhcweh.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img186_zpsgrqhcweh.jpg.html)
I mentioned before that the only photo I have found with that style of rear gun support was on the prototype KI-67's. Number 715 in the image above was an early version of the KI-67 variants. So I was trying to figure out when did this design change to the gun mount take place & I have the answer now.
When I was looking at some line drawings I noticed that the overall length in one drawing was 18m700 & on another 18m350 what happened to the other 350?
So after translating the text here is why.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img006_zpsttl3knes.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img006_zpsttl3knes.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/P123_zpsewa8rqcf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/P123_zpsewa8rqcf.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img007_zpsexs7quu8.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img007_zpsexs7quu8.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/PROD%20TYPE_zpshvqeb74i.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/PROD%20TYPE_zpshvqeb74i.jpg.html)
First drawing is for the prototypes and there was only three of those the second drawing was for the regular production run.
When you look at the next drawing that overlays the two variants it is obvious that the turret domes are different.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img009_zpskyqpgrhr.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img009_zpskyqpgrhr.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/67%20F_zps8s4amsud.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/67%20F_zps8s4amsud.jpg.html)
So this is why the 350 difference in length. The Plexiglass domes got shallower and affected the overall length.
Another view from overhead showing the front turret domes.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/AAAAAA_zpspmyax9o4.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/AAAAAA_zpspmyax9o4.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/CCC_zps1ihlg64n.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/CCC_zps1ihlg64n.jpg.html)
Earlier in this thread I had posted two drawings of different designs of the front turret. At the time I did not know why they had two different versions.
Prototype front turret.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/7e844a49-2806-4582-a5d1-3149f547d648_zpsnkoo1zbi.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/7e844a49-2806-4582-a5d1-3149f547d648_zpsnkoo1zbi.jpg.html)
Production run front turret.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img188_zpsyavwob7d.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img188_zpsyavwob7d.jpg.html)
Also explains the line drawing for the rear turret with the metal support around the gun slot.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img185_zpsxh2vl46h.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img185_zpsxh2vl46h.jpg.html)
Its the same as the prototype.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img200_zpsbp4bjnwf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img200_zpsbp4bjnwf.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/debcf4347b30d63ee9c219450d68d7bc_zpsm42cyn4k.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/debcf4347b30d63ee9c219450d68d7bc_zpsm42cyn4k.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki67_shisaku_02_zpszv7honfw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki67_shisaku_02_zpszv7honfw.jpg.html)
Also found a rare photo of the front of this aircraft on a Japanese blog and it confirms the larger dome on the nose as well as the different design.
Also a near perfect match for what we have in game now.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/Type%204%20Bomb_zpsg84vdrby.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/Type%204%20Bomb_zpsg84vdrby.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ahss279_zpsxvy4cibc.png) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ahss279_zpsxvy4cibc.png.html)
It looks like most of the Japanese books took all their information from the KI-67 aircraft service manual I posted on the SCRIBD links. https://www.scribd.com/document/330116604/Mitsubishi-KI-67-Hiryu-Aircraft-Service-Manual The service manual looks to be based off the Prototypes not the production run aircraft. So since there is clearly a redesign of the front and rear guns the drawings that show the gun arcs,are most likely based off of the prototypes and not the improved designs of the production run aircraft.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/775dec2b-2b77-4b25-9c45-6a9ff5f53710_zpsgdbzvh0o.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/775dec2b-2b77-4b25-9c45-6a9ff5f53710_zpsgdbzvh0o.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/KI-67%20VVVV%20VB_zpshhrsdck2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/KI-67%20VVVV%20VB_zpshhrsdck2.jpg.html)
Also after cropping two of the previous drawings from this post that are only showing the rear gun turret now. It is conformation of an actual design change to the rear gun mount to a sleeker design.
Prototype.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img006%20Ab_zpsmuelt1x4.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img006%20Ab_zpsmuelt1x4.jpg.html)
Production.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img007%20Ac_zps3v2mvg7w.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img007%20Ac_zps3v2mvg7w.jpg.html)
-
It depends on the length of that gun and the room from side-to-side. I think I can work out a draft on this and calculate the angle. It won't be point accurate, but rough enough to know if the game is accurate.
-
It depends on the length of that gun and the room from side-to-side. I think I can work out a draft on this and calculate the angle. It won't be point accurate, but rough enough to know if the game is accurate.
Oh please do. :aok
Your findings last time surpassed what is in books as well as in game.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/775dec2b-2b77-4b25-9c45-6a9ff5f53710_zpsgdbzvh0o.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/775dec2b-2b77-4b25-9c45-6a9ff5f53710_zpsgdbzvh0o.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/12562714_1695823040702320_796967984_o_zps3aeqqgss.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/12562714_1695823040702320_796967984_o_zps3aeqqgss.jpg.html)
-
I think a little explanation is needed. The green arc defines the tail cone. The blue is the pivot point. The black block object is the extents of the gun (grossly). The red line is the maximum extent of the traverse in the tail cone slot. I did this in the side view, because it is better than the majority of the top views I saw (as far as the details we are concerned with). If you swing the gun to the stops it is 65 degrees, but I cut it short just a tad because it looked to me that the gun would be meeting interference with the airframe structure. That may also be why in the photo with the man outside holding the barrel that it does not meet the stop.
It's still better than the 40 degrees in the book, which I can only speculate as to why that is.
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/PivotExtents_zpss7phqxxt.jpg)
-
I think a little explanation is needed. The green arc defines the tail cone. The blue is the pivot point. The black block object is the extents of the gun (grossly). The red line is the maximum extent of the traverse in the tail cone slot. I did this in the side view, because it is better than the majority of the top views I saw (as far as the details we are concerned with). If you swing the gun to the stops it is 65 degrees, but I cut it short just a tad because it looked to me that the gun would be meeting interference with the airframe structure. That may also be why in the photo with the man outside holding the barrel that it does not meet the stop.
It's still better than the 40 degrees in the book, which I can only speculate as to why that is.
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/PivotExtents_zpss7phqxxt.jpg)
Excellent. :aok
This is the photo you are referring too.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/abc_zpsapac5nok.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/abc_zpsapac5nok.jpg.html)
-
Yes, that photo actual shows a lot more than you might think what with the ammo belt and structural bits in good view.
-
With bubble slot in the horizontal position, the extra travel seen in the slot might be used up when the bubble is rotated 90 deg. It looks like there would be less internal obstructions when pointing the gun up or down when the bubble slot is vertical.
Why else would the extra travel be there?
-
This KI-67 Prior to shipping to the USA shows it best.
Also take note of the two floating grab handles the gunner used to pull himself up from his kneeling position.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/abc_zpsapac5nok.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/abc_zpsapac5nok.jpg.html)
Just noticed a grab handle on the front turret like the rear grab handles.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/KI-67%20VVVV%20c_zpsbp4xfd41.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/KI-67%20VVVV%20c_zpsbp4xfd41.jpg.html)
-
With bubble slot in the horizontal position, the extra travel seen in the slot might be used up when the bubble is rotated 90 deg. It looks like there would be less internal obstructions when pointing the gun up or down when the bubble slot is vertical.
Why else would the extra travel be there?
Yes, I think that's it exactly. In some positions the gun can traverse further than in other positions.
-
All your Ki-67s are belong to us.
-
All your Ki-67s are belong to us.
OK. :headscratch:
-
Pays to go back and read books you haven't looked at in a long time. :aok
Found an explanation why the front & rear turrets were changed.
So this became the beginning of the KI-67Ia. Model.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img016_zpshhnbjque.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img016_zpshhnbjque.jpg.html)
So when they changed out all the 7.9mm guns to 12.7mm and added the extra 12.7mm to the rear turret then this became the KI-67Ib. Model.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img019_zps5m06zjim.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img019_zps5m06zjim.jpg.html)
This part I did not know though at some point the 20mm cannon in the dorsal turret on the KI-67Ib was changed out for 2 x 12.7mm's. Clearly this must have been a better option than the 20mm cannon?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img017_zpsvmjuuwr5.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img017_zpsvmjuuwr5.jpg.html)
Also the only model to carry torpedoes was the KI-67Ia yet it only had a single 12.7mm gun in the tail.
AHIII KI-67 has torpedoes as well as the twin 12.7mm guns in the tail. Yet no KI-67Ia variant had the twin guns in the rear turret only the KI-67Ib.
So it looks as if we have a bit of a hybrid in game.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img018_zpsqnocjyjh.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img018_zpsqnocjyjh.jpg.html)
-
Finally found out through photographic evidence that the front turret did spin 360 degrees.
Note the long side of the twin rails on the Plexiglass dome.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/15225330_1032617233533818_1234959583_o_zpsrbuh0plp.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/15225330_1032617233533818_1234959583_o_zpsrbuh0plp.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/15183847_1032617320200476_825653095_o_zpsuvexmloe.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/15183847_1032617320200476_825653095_o_zpsuvexmloe.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/15239175_1032617453533796_2130686033_n_zpswsattu6x.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/15239175_1032617453533796_2130686033_n_zpswsattu6x.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/15211512_1032617493533792_1354443364_n_zpsydobfwuy.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/15211512_1032617493533792_1354443364_n_zpsydobfwuy.jpg.html)
These two have been what I have been trying to find for a while now.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img021_zps6vnt3xvx.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img021_zps6vnt3xvx.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img024_zpsat4o7j2b.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/img024_zpsat4o7j2b.jpg.html)
-
That pretty much demonstrates your point. It appears to be 135deg., but in reality covers 180deg (give or take) because the entire nose can rotate. Might be a little hard to model that.
-
For future skinning purposes actual colour photos.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_colorlineup_darrylford_c_zpssuxe4ogc.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_colorlineup_darrylford_c_zpssuxe4ogc.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_170fr_zpssyoxcrf0.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_170fr_zpssyoxcrf0.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/6800549000_9a210c2576_b_zpsun8uhdkt.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/6800549000_9a210c2576_b_zpsun8uhdkt.jpg.html)
Two access panels from two different aircraft from the underside of the plane.
One factory fresh the other older.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_color_zpsz06iaclj.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_color_zpsz06iaclj.jpg.html)
Gas cover caps.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_color_raymichaels_a_zpswhgq45ss.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_color_raymichaels_a_zpswhgq45ss.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/WWIIb.jpgoriginal_zpsekh8dpzz.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/WWIIb.jpgoriginal_zpsekh8dpzz.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_gascover_raymichaels_a_zpsjeh9cktw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki-67_gascover_raymichaels_a_zpsjeh9cktw.jpg.html)
-
Looking at screen shots of War Thunders KI-67 front gun looks like they got the gun mount on the nose gun wrong. It doesn't attach to the top of the aircraft as well as the bottom. Plus it looks to beefy in comparison to real life photos.
Although it seems they have the rail system correct No idea if the nose blister rotates though.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki_67_09_1280h720_9940411cd0415aed8d663a0101970b54_zpso11edk5d.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki_67_09_1280h720_9940411cd0415aed8d663a0101970b54_zpso11edk5d.jpg.html)
Rear gun totally wrong.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki_67_08_1280h720_306c47a125bb7180b67c74b61accb94c_zps6ih9plmn.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Mitsubishi%20KI-67/ki_67_08_1280h720_306c47a125bb7180b67c74b61accb94c_zps6ih9plmn.jpg.html)
-
+1 more for updating the Ki-67 to the new standard. Gun arcs are a problem though - I don't see how you would model the gunner spinning the front & rear domes to get the better firing arc.
-
+1 more for updating the Ki-67 to the new standard. Gun arcs are a problem though - I don't see how you would model the gunner spinning the front & rear domes to get the better firing arc.
Yeah. Your gun may not move in a manner you want it to, so coding it to move "smoothly" will probably be a feat in of itself. Regardless, an update to her with proper gun arcs would be sweet. :)
-
Well since Photobucket has disabled all of my links and locked the account because I am not paying $400.00 annually for that.
So all of the imagery I have posted is basically lost.
I have found some colour video of the rear gun of a Hiryu maybe KI-109 or possibly KI-67.
http://arawasi-wildeagles.blogspot.com/
The dome blister on the rear has been removed permanently as the examples I had posted before in black and white.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/imrxft.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/ac62s4.jpg)
(http://i63.tinypic.com/33kq6mc.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2nivgj6.jpg)
-
I think a little explanation is needed. The green arc defines the tail cone. The blue is the pivot point. The black block object is the extents of the gun (grossly). The red line is the maximum extent of the traverse in the tail cone slot. I did this in the side view, because it is better than the majority of the top views I saw (as far as the details we are concerned with). If you swing the gun to the stops it is 65 degrees, but I cut it short just a tad because it looked to me that the gun would be meeting interference with the airframe structure. That may also be why in the photo with the man outside holding the barrel that it does not meet the stop.
It's still better than the 40 degrees in the book, which I can only speculate as to why that is.
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/PivotExtents_zpss7phqxxt.jpg)
Based off this photo I think your about right on the mark. This tail gun could possibly push up higher to reach your 62 degrees. Also it looks as if the Japanese simplified the rear gun quite a bit. No rear dome the belt feed has changed sides and I think this lower lip extension is to stop the the flexible ammo chute from flopping around in the wind.
Maybe this design is a better option for an updated version?
(http://i67.tinypic.com/301pkrb.jpg)
-
That plane has had its dorsal turret removed. Why?
-
That plane has had its dorsal turret removed. Why?
This plane was a conventional bomber to begin with. As things were going badly with the Japanese towards wars end they started to modify aircraft into Kamikaze flying bombs. This aircraft was in process of that change but was not completed. Dorsal turret was taken out & plywood sealed off the hole. Waist gunners positions were eliminated. Nose gun removed & a pole was placed in front of the aircraft that acted as a trigger when it impacted its target the rest of the aircraft was packed full of explosives.
Few more pictures of sister aircraft in process as well.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/j0if82.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/jqgug0.jpg)
This is what it would have looked like when finished.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/52hqxh.jpg)
-
This is what it would have looked like when finished.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/52hqxh.jpg)
Found a Japanese video showing quite a bit of detail of this type of aircraft.
10 minute 40 second mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmVtaP83FTY