Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MADe on December 11, 2015, 12:05:07 AM
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hows come some can fly thru a base or town, taking down the ack, but whenever I get even in close proximity, I get nailed everytime?
In all the time I have played the game, I cannot recall ever making it thru a pass without losing an engine or a wing. This is a real question, not a rant. everytime without fail, I fail.........................
Hows come everytime someone pulls up in front of me, I get 600>400 yards out, put the pipper right on him and never get a hit?
again not a rant, a real question. without fail I fail.
These 2 things are what make me not want to play after a time. I end up going away till I really miss it.
yes I know how to lead a target, yes I practice gunnery offline. I just do not get it.
:salute
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One thing about ack is you don't want to go near it. If you directly overfly ack it will not miss. Also, hug the ground on egress.
As to shooting and what causes you to miss; if you are using a twisty stick there's your problem. It is nearly impossbile to prevent unintended inputs, so when you think you are lined up and shooting straight the odds are that you are not.
If you still think that can't be it, then go into the training arena with a squaddie and shoot each other up. In the TA you cannot get shot down, so it's actually the best practice place.
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As to shooting and what causes you to miss; if you are using a twisty stick there's your problem. It is nearly impossbile to prevent unintended inputs, so when you think you are lined up and shooting straight the odds are that you are not.
Go into the advanced menu in the Map Controllers function and you can increase the dead band and/or scaling for the rudder and this stops being a problem.
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The Ack has some sort of AI, it can calculate the lead better than any of us. What it can't do is to guess our maneuvers in advance. So don't fly straight and start from the edges. Your chances to survive get even better if there's someone else on the opposite side of the field or town having all of the ack aiming at him - the role that you've been playing so far!
As for hitting a moving target, there's many variables to take into account. You know how to lead a target and that's a good start. But is it your pipper only? Is your entire plane in the correct angle for a hit? Is the ball centered? If not, you're moving sideways, you're drifting. Look at this drifting video (https://youtu.be/94YqaI80Gi0) for better understanding what I mean. Notice how the front wheels face in a different direction than the car's nose. Compare that to a plane, quadruplicating the speed. Your guns show in the direction of the driving lights, lined with the main frame. Your pipper is where the front wheels are rolling, showing the direction you're going to. At best this can be seen where the two cars drift side by side. Imagine the chaser had guns, where would he be shooting.
As for offline practice, it still takes me a huge amount of rounds to drop a single plane circling slow over the base. I know the theory but I end up drifting which both burns my energy and spoils my aim after these umpteen years.
I once read a story about some Senior Western Actor advising a Junior Movie Cowboy in shooting with a revolver. The Jr had spent numerous hours trying to shoot a can on the fence. No matter how he put the pipper on the target, he'd miss. The Sr didn't seem to aim at all and yet he hit the can with every shot. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? The trick? Instead of concentrating on the pipper Sr asked Jr to imagine the revolver being his index finger and shoot where the finger shows. Need I say that concerning planes the fuselage of your plane is the index finger in question?
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DeAck? Cannons, cannons and a fast plane.
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my experiences are far from the truth of the AH gods.. but
Duck and weave the ack..up..pause...down..rinse repeat..
gets you through it..
I know your pain of being 200..300 behind a target..
at that moment your almost too excited to think rationally...I know I am.. but the bullets lob..
so depending on your convergence you either have to aim high...or lower.. depending on the differences to what your convergence is set at..
obviously all planes have different ballistics... its just learning them each individually..(stick to same plane) and understanding if you should aim high or lower//
that said I am no ace..
I eat pies, drink beer and look at sheep in an inappropriate manner...
baaaaaaat ....these where my thoughts..
Im as upset as you that in the heat of the moment I dont control my thoughts in a calm manner...
Now release the sheeep.....
I cant hit sheet but I want to
<S>Jimmy <clink>
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DeAck? Cannons, cannons and a fast plane.
THIS
I can deack a twn 95% of the time with a Fw190 A5 by zooming thru, taking 2-3 guns per pass, extending and coming back for more. Taking the fast acks (center twn) 1st helps...as does knowing the location of the guns in twn. As Chalenge states, stay LOW TO THE GROUND as you extend.
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Duck down. :D Seriously, fast passes with accurate cannon fire. Work from the outer edges in. Do not fly right through the middle of a town or field that has all of it's ack guns up. Also helps to have a friend alternate passes as it splits the amount of guns firing at you. Sometimes you will get hit, sometimes you will come out without a scratch. Practice practice practice.
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ty all good stuff.
I figure I have the steadiest stick in the game, I built it. No twisty for me. I have put many photos of it in forum. My peddles are a little sensitive but I do use a scaling curve to deal. I scale all the axis but throttle. My scaling curve makes its own dead band area.
I understand the concept of not flying a predictable path. You have to straighten out to hit a target tho, that's when I get popped. Hell I use a 48" monitor and I still cannot see gun emplacements till its to late to line up. I suppose it would help to memorize a town/base layout but that's more time spent not playing, and I do not fly 8 hrs a day so who could actually remember all the different layouts. I see players flying thru it, shooting out gun emplacements, and never getting hit.
I'm fairly sure that my issues are what drive most peeps away after a time. I could careless about points or game prowess.
I also fly no squad, I just get in with a group that's doing something and try to help out. Less check 6 calls this way.....but I have not really hooked in with a group that matches my sched. Plus to be honest, many groups have a way of dealing when their plans going awry...he's a hacker, he's has shade accts, there's a spy, they cheat........... I 've come to understand that this is usually baloney and get tire of hearing it.
I have a quality rig, a full size stick, a good internet connect and yet.......................... .............I do stink of the impatience thing, I do get to sweating when setting myself up for the shot. I'm very good at seeing a distant plane, getting on his 6 and can stay there but no joy. Convergence is set at around 400, but I get more visible hits at 800 out, but the distance weakens the impacts....................
I will read all your posts a couple of times and see if I can apply them in game.
:salute
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I change the position of my plane a lot when flying through ack, seems to make me get hit less. Same goes for puffy ack, if you put it on auto or auto climb, you are sure to get smoked. Change your altitude and turn a little and it seems rare to take a hit.
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When going through the ack at a field, always be losing altitude, and always be jinking a bit. You should be on a vector to be just skimming the treetops when you go out the other side. When you go out the other side and are forced to go level or crash, then you need to jink more vigorously. If I am level or climbing within range of the ack, it seems to hit me a lot more.
Wiley.
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Why are you flying through ack? Learn to use rockets.
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hows come some can fly thru a base or town, taking down the ack, but whenever I get even in close proximity, I get nailed everytime?
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Keep some G on the plane while approaching or leaving. Personally, I use a bit of up/down elevator in order to "porpoise" along until I'm ready to line up on my target and fire.
YMMV
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My advice is to ask Ruaml in game some of his strategies.
He is a notorious vulcher and de-acker who for some reason never gets hit by ack.
I'm sure he has some valid points for ways to be successful at it.
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The point with ack is to always keep moving. Fast is good, jinking around is good, exiting low and fast is good. Practice is what you need to spot the acks so you can stop jinking long enough to throw a burst into it, then get back to moving. Another clue I use is to watch where the ack is firing from as it shoots at others as well. This gives me a spot to dive in one and locate the gun to line up on it.
As for gunnery, you said, and I quote, "I get 600>400 yards out, put the pipper right on him and never get a hit?" If your putting the pipper right on him your going to miss. The only shot that is going to be close is a HO or a dead six shot and even then you need to aim ABOVE the target a bit due to bullet drop. From any crossing shot you have to have the pipper at least a full plane form/space in front of, to almost 2 plane forms/spaces in front of the target as well as a bit above. Add in the "convergence". You said, and I quote "Convergence is set at around 400, but I get more visible hits at 800 out". Your bullet stream has already converged and is split again, looks like an "X". So while yes your punch is weakened by distance, it is also weakened because your only hitting with half your guns, unless your flying a center line mounted plane.
Ryno did a great tutorial on gunnery and aim and how to practice. Vudu taped it and posted it on his site here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoeZIX5TnAI&index=41&list=PL54E5CE4C59347B00 There are 6 parts so it takes some time, but it is well worth it.
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The ack has travel time.. so if you are not where it was aiming when it fired.. you won't get hit .. odds are.. 90% of the time this is 50% right..
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As to shooting and what causes you to miss; if you are using a twisty stick there's your problem. It is nearly impossbile to prevent unintended inputs, so when you think you are lined up and shooting straight the odds are that you are not.
This can largely be solved with a dead band programmed into your joystick controller.
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Don't attack any 37mm ack until all of the high rate of fire ack is down. The 20mm ack is what kills planes, kill it first. The 37mm ack is practically ineffective against moving targets. Come in at a near vertical high angle, tap off just a couple of 20mm. Before those rounds even land you should be pulling out, plan your dive and pullout so that you're not pulling out over/across the base because distance is your friend when deacking. The same with towns, do a cautious flyover and note where the 20mm acks are.
I should add, you want to fire at the ack as far away from the ack as you can be and still land hits. Shoot from far away and pullout immediately so that you minimize the time that you are in 20mm range.
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Lots of great advice! There is always going to be a disconnect without actually getting in the game and observing how the ack reacts to these pointers. There isn't anything I can add that hasn't already been given. All I can say is it takes lots and lots of reps. Observing what works and why it works. Once it clicks it sticks :salute
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RuAml and a sex Panther reference in the same thread... Time to come back or sign of the apocalypse?
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He can join my squad as long has he is not a colonial :old:
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He can join my squad as long has he is not a colonial :old:
He's from North Korea. Welcome him with open arms eh! :D
The ack has travel time.. so if you are not where it was aiming when it fired.. you won't get hit .. odds are.. 90% of the time this is 50% right..
I like them odds! :aok
RuAml and a sex Panther reference in the same thread... Time to come back or sign of the apocalypse?
Horrido Stang!!!!!
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I change the position of my plane a lot when flying through ack, seems to make me get hit less. Same goes for puffy ack, if you put it on auto or auto climb, you are sure to get smoked. Change your altitude and turn a little and it seems rare to take a hit.
This! I stay fast and just jink a bit here and there. "Generally" does the job.
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DeAck? Cannons, cannons and a fast plane.
Forget cannons. Use rockets.
As for shooting at other planes, and missing... Record your flights. When viewing the films, you can switch to the other plane and see where your bullets are going, compared to where you think they are going.
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The ultimate de-ackers for me are the 190-F8 and the Yak-9T with the big gun.
One round per gun pit with the Yak.
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hows come some can fly thru a base or town, taking down the ack, but whenever I get even in close proximity, I get nailed everytime?
In all the time I have played the game, I cannot recall ever making it thru a pass without losing an engine or a wing. This is a real question, not a rant. everytime without fail, I fail.........................
Hows come everytime someone pulls up in front of me, I get 600>400 yards out, put the pipper right on him and never get a hit?
again not a rant, a real question. without fail I fail.
These 2 things are what make me not want to play after a time. I end up going away till I really miss it.
yes I know how to lead a target, yes I practice gunnery offline. I just do not get it.
:salute
well dont put the piper right on them. lead your shot. lol
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MADe,
Fugitive, gave probably the best advice I can give on here which is watch Ryno/Kingpin's films or setup an appointment with him for gunnery work. He is now a trainer with us. Also one other thing that someone mentioned was twisting the stick while firing will throw off your aim. Much like in real life trigger control has a lot to do with being accurate. One trick I learned that works for some is to move your trigger to a button off of your stick. Such as using a button on your throttle instead.
:salute
BigRat
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hows come some can fly thru a base or town, taking down the ack, but whenever I get even in close proximity, I get nailed everytime.
In all the time I have played the game, I cannot recall ever making it thru a pass without losing an engine or a wing. This is a real question, not a rant. everytime without fail, I fail.........................
:salute
Sounds like a rant... :devil but given that you are asking it legitimately, do these things and you will not get hit(as already mentioned by most people in this thread):
1.) stay fast 450MPH+. Ack will not be able to pull enough lead.
2.) Jink your plane. Use lots of small rudder/aileron/elevator. This will cause the Ack to lead their fire in the wrong direction, making it hard to shoot you down.
3.) Come in from with "Tangential" angle. If you are trying to hit a target on the SouthEast corner of the base, only expose your plane to the SouthEast ack. If you come in from the Northwest you are exposing your plane to all of the base ack. Still can be done but you have to be going really fast and lots of jinking.
Hows come everytime someone pulls up in front of me, I get 600>400 yards out, put the pipper right on him and never get a hit?
again not a rant, a real question. without fail I fail.
These 2 things are what make me not want to play after a time. I end up going away till I really miss it.
yes I know how to lead a target, yes I practice gunnery offline. I just do not get it.
:salute
The "everytime" part of this sounds like a rant. :devil Are you saying that you have "never" shot anyone down from 400 yards out?
1.) Get closer. within 200 yards is best, this is not easy to do but the best way not to miss.
2.) Set up your 'over the nose' views. http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/overthenose/overthenose.htm (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/overthenose/overthenose.htm) IF you are trying to shoot someone 600 yards out in a turny fight, you will have to pull TONS of lead. Typically you will have to fire 'blind' with the enemy plane well below the nose of your plane and out of sight. This is when its good to pull out your "over the nose" view. Set up a button on your controller or keyboard as an over the nose view. Some planes have better view capabilities than others. For example a Mossy has great over the nose view but a 190D does not.
3.) Set up your convergence to match your shooting style.
Hope this helps. If you want to practice in the DA, shoot me a PM.
:salute :cheers: :salute
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One trick I learned that works for some is to move your trigger to a button off of your stick. Such as using a button on your throttle instead.
:salute
BigRat
I put my flaps and all my views off the stick for this very reason. I still use the trigger but anything else that I may have to mess with while lining up to shoot is on my throttle.
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The ultimate de-ackers for me are the 190-F8 and the Yak-9T with the big gun.
One round per gun pit with the Yak.
Isn't it one round per gun pit with any cannon? Only use rockets on ack if your plane has no cannon, otherwise it's a waste of rockets. I have the best luck deacking with spits and hurricanes I think because of their long range cannon. I've been able to deack a small field in both of those planes. The thing about the 190s is that pulling out of a low speed dive can be tricky and before you know it you're deep in range of 20mm ack.
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hows come some can fly thru a base or town, taking down the ack, but whenever I get even in close proximity, I get nailed everytime?
There are just two conditions required to avoid the ack. Do it right and the ack will never hit you.
1) Stay fast, the faster the better.
2) Don't fly straight for more than a second or two.
In the first condition, "fast" means close to the top speed of some of the faster aircraft, so this only works well after a dive or if you actually fly one of the fastest aircraft in the arena. Nothing else will help much if you slow down, if your speed drops you will get hit.
In the second condition you don't need to make big direction changes, just small gentle flight path changes so it doesn't hurt your speed too much, because speed is everything. The direction of the changes don't matter, so you can make small altitude changes to stay lined up on an ack when de-acking. Small altitude changes (like porpoising) spoil the ack's aim and doesn't hurt your aim or your speed too much.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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I may be wrong but I think changing direction doesn't help against cv puffy ack as it does not come from an ingame projectile like all other ack in game.
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tanx folks, more info than I anticipated.
The use of stick suggestions are very good, unfortunately they are based on a certain premise, let me show you why I have already dealt with that in a very specific way.
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy138/spyknee/in%20the%20seat%20front.jpg~original) (http://s785.photobucket.com/user/spyknee/media/in%20the%20seat%20front.jpg.html)
(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy138/spyknee/rudder%20scaling.jpg~original) (http://s785.photobucket.com/user/spyknee/media/rudder%20scaling.jpg.html)
I would say that my peddles have always been sensitive/sloppy. But I use a scaling curve that's quite extreme so where it still maybe a slight issue I wonder.
Personally as far as ack is concerned, I bet overall I have the steadiest gear in the game, so I will have to go for the porpoiseing technique and memorizing the bases and towns. I do not waffle period. Will have to get with a squad. Need to make some films and spend the time watching them.
:salute
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I may be wrong but I think changing direction doesn't help against cv puffy ack as it does not come from an ingame projectile like all other ack in game.
The rule of thumb is supposedly if you're flying straight and level at a constant speed, it has its best chance to hit you. That's why you'll occasionally see the cruising fighter get one shotted at 20k. If you're pulling G's and changing altitude (either climbing or diving) it's supposed to have less chance to hit you. That's more or less been my experience. As long as I'm pulling G's and changing direction it seems to hit me very rarely.
Cruising in any way while in range of puffy seems to be a recipe for getting hit.
Wiley.
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The use of stick suggestions are very good, unfortunately they are based on a certain premise, let me show you why I have already dealt with that in a very specific way.
I built my own also. For the rudders I got my hands on pedals from a P-51 and then took apart a CH pedal set and used the guts to power mine. As for the stick I used an older CH stick (worn out coolie hat) and used metal conduit with beefy gate springs to hold center.
I'm surprised to see you are not using any damping at all, which I think would really help.
Earlier someone said the adding deadband to a twisty is a good solution. There is no solution to those things, so I'm glad you didn't fall into that trap.
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(http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy138/spyknee/rudder%20scaling.jpg~original) (http://s785.photobucket.com/user/spyknee/media/rudder%20scaling.jpg.html)
But I use a scaling curve that's quite extreme so where it still maybe a slight issue I wonder.
yeah this scaling is probably part of the reason its easier for me to avoid ack than it is for you. For me and my twisty stick, I put in small inputs in rudder/aileron/elevator to avoid the ack. For you to get the same effect you will have to move your stick and foot pedals much more. So it would probably feel like you are trying to churn butter and stomp grapes... lol. :rofl
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With all of these tips, random chance, no matter what you do, says you will get a one shot kill from an ack every once in a while.
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The rule of thumb is supposedly if you're flying straight and level at a constant speed, it has its best chance to hit you. That's why you'll occasionally see the cruising fighter get one shotted at 20k. If you're pulling G's and changing altitude (either climbing or diving) it's supposed to have less chance to hit you. That's more or less been my experience. As long as I'm pulling G's and changing direction it seems to hit me very rarely.
Cruising in any way while in range of puffy seems to be a recipe for getting hit.
Wiley.
If you are in a set of bombers, making a beeline for the CV, this does not apply to you.
For fighters, it seems the faster you go, the more likely you will get hit. Maneuvering doesn't help one bit, but it should.
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If you are in a set of bombers, making a beeline for the CV, this does not apply to you.
For fighters, it seems the faster you go, the more likely you will get hit. Maneuvering doesn't help one bit, but it should.
The part about the bombers is dead on, sorry I should've specified I was talking about fighters.
It seems to me, I've never methodically tested it, but the critical thing about being in a fighter in puffy is pulling G's. As long as I'm not unloaded, it seems I get hit less. YMMV.
Wiley.
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The part about the bombers is dead on, sorry I should've specified I was talking about fighters.
It seems to me, I've never methodically tested it, but the critical thing about being in a fighter in puffy is pulling G's. As long as I'm not unloaded, it seems I get hit less. YMMV.
Wiley.
To me this seems like a problem. I would think a formation of bombers would be easier to hit than a single and much smaller fighter travelling at greater speeds. Not complaining of course just doesn't seem right.
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like you are trying to churn butter and stomp grapes... lol.
yes this is so, but I would compare it to a more realistic WW2 cockpit movement. ALL the modern sticks are for jets, strictly wrist movement.
I just wonder what the real life percentages are, in real ww2 combat vs what AH has pain stakeingly created. AH has done many things to capture realism without going thru much of the real life tedium involved in real combat aircraft flying, and rightly so!
:salute
This is what I call a vested interest in the game.
Now if AH would allow me to fly my own colors, another way to create a vested interest in the game. The skinners do fabulous work, its beautiful stuff and I understand what they do is in honor of those that flew in real life, but.......................... .................its keeps the vested interest in the game to few peeps........................ ...
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In the second condition you don't need to make big direction changes, just small gentle flight path changes so it doesn't hurt your speed too much, because speed is everything. The direction of the changes don't matter, so you can make small altitude changes to stay lined up on an ack when de-acking. Small altitude changes (like porpoising) spoil the ack's aim and doesn't hurt your aim or your speed too much.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
Yep! And, if you happen to be doing a gun-run to de-ack, start your dive with your aim-point well below the ack gun. As you pull up into a firing solution, you'll be making those needed course corrections. Normally, I don't do this with 50's (unless it's a jug) unless others are joining in (1 extra target for ack to shoot at makes all the difference) ... but sometimes ya gotta.
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I found with ack, sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes the bug... Some nights, I can deack with no damage, some nights, magic ping-o-death from 6K out.
To the OP, what plane are you deacking with?
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Duck down. :D Seriously, fast passes with accurate cannon fire. Work from the outer edges in. Do not fly right through the middle of a town or field that has all of it's ack guns up. Also helps to have a friend alternate passes as it splits the amount of guns firing at you. Sometimes you will get hit, sometimes you will come out without a scratch. Practice practice practice.
This works, imj.
The other thing I notice echoes Biz's commentary. The ack is good at leading you. That will work iff you're continuing to travel in the same direction and at the same speed as when the projectile is fired. Hence, on egress, don't given the ack an easy solution. I've found that even a minimal turn, one the maintains most of your e, will confuse the unmanned ack.
As for rocket de-ack, I was practicing it last night and found that the vertical approach works pretty well for me, mainly because my aim in the horizontal sucks. You can go above the ack alt, say from 7-8k up, roll over and dive sharply down towards the ack, fire your rockets, then pull out pulling a bit of g (I usually throw some roll in for good measure) until you clear the flack umbrella. I like to think of it like a bubble that I stay above/outside of, until I can make my pass with high closing speed.
Basic: always have the pinpoint location of the emplacement identified before the pass. Fishing expeditions inevitably end badly( and I know).
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Download maps and print them
Laminate
Now you can plan your approach for the edges en route so you know where your at
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even if it was mentioned, sounds as a rant, I'm glad I asked the questions. Never intended as a rant, btw. If so I would have said so upfront.
Folks these answers are USEFUL stuff! Great for a new player or a non-real life pilot.
Fugitive, TY for the Ryno /vudu link. Dam, I never would have considered using multiple crossing points. I had done this once on my own but I was poking around, did not register the true potential in this. Just viewed the 1st tut, now I MUST view them all!
:salute