Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: WpnX on December 16, 2015, 09:28:44 AM
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Been giving the F4U-1A and 1D a try lately and need some help. My BRD sucks and I'm not exactly sure when to deploy flaps in (when coming over top of loop? when at bottom of loop?) Do I WEP in a flat turn? WEP w flaps? So many questions, would be nice to get a little one on one training.
Thanks,
Elvis
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Paging TC... paging TC... Please pick up the white courtesy phone...
I use to fly the 1A a lot, but since there are so many run-90's and pee-51's, I have changed to the 47M so I can press them a little more when they turn tail...
The hogs are great when fast, but not bad when slow (for a little bit). They can't accelerate out of a bad situation like a spit, but if you can keep their speed up, and not get too slow when lots of cons are around, they can be super fun birds.
Flaps are great on these birds, when going over the top inverted, they can help get your nose down more quickly making a decent stall fighter (rope a dope). They are heavy, so the zoom climb well.
When getting slow, turn off combat trim. When I see speeds are coming down, I turn off combat trim at 200 mph, locking the trim at that spot (as long as you don't have a manual trim wheel set, this works). Now when you pop flaps, you won't get any weird bouncing. You can turn it back on when you speed back up.
I drain the left wing tank till it's dry, then switch to main. This seems to add weight to the right side, balancing against the prop rotation. It may not actually do anything, but that's what I was taught.
I set the guns with a cross convergence. The inner guns at 375, middle guns 350, outer 325. Never fire till you see the icon at 400.
You can use the gear and the giant rudder to keep from overshooting, and get an overshoot.
Good luck
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Wpnx,
I would be glad to work with you. Let me know what would be a good time for you.
:salute
Sik
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Been giving the F4U-1A and 1D a try lately and need some help. My BRD sucks and I'm not exactly sure when to deploy flaps in (when coming over top of loop? when at bottom of loop?) Do I WEP in a flat turn? WEP w flaps? So many questions, would be nice to get a little one on one training.
Thanks,
Elvis
The F4U has it's best sustained turn with 2 notches of flaps.
Turn hard at the top of the loop, go easier on the bottom.
Use WEP anytime you're turning below 250 mph.
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Wpnx,
I would be glad to work with you. Let me know what would be a good time for you.
:salute
Sik
Appreciate that Sik, I'm available every night tonight thru Friday 5-9 MDT. Let me know if there's a good day for you and I'll be there.
Thanks,
Elvis
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Meathead and FLS, thanks for tips, I'll put that to practice.
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They are heavy, so they zoom climb well.
Assuming equal drag and thrust, if gravity causes heavier planes to dive faster why would it allow heavier planes to zoom higher?
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Assuming equal drag and thrust, if gravity causes heavier planes to dive faster why would it allow heavier planes to zoom higher?
Issac Newton says weight has nothing to do with how fast an object drops.
I'm confused by your question.
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Momentum.
Inertia.
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Issac Newton says weight has nothing to do with how fast an object drops.
I'm confused by your question.
That's in a vacuum. Gravity is constant per unit of mass. The heavier aircraft has more mass or more simply: weight = gravity x mass.
When you have air resistance then drag is a factor. Assuming the same aero drag, the heavier aircraft has more thrust from gravity so you're comparing thrust vs drag in two aircraft. They have the same drag diving and gravity adds more thrust to the heavier aircraft. They have the same aero drag zooming and gravity reduces thrust more or adds more drag, however you want to see it, to the heavier aircraft.
You could say a heavier aircraft can better build speed for a zoom climb and a higher entry speed zooms higher.
If thrust from gravity seems odd consider sailplanes. Adding water ballast lets them fly faster with the same glide ratio.
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That's in a vacuum. Gravity is constant per unit of mass. The heavier aircraft has more mass or more simply: weight = gravity x mass.
When you have air resistance then drag is a factor. Assuming the same aero drag, the heavier aircraft has more thrust from gravity so you're comparing thrust vs drag in two aircraft. They have the same drag diving and gravity adds more thrust to the heavier aircraft. They have the same aero drag zooming and gravity reduces thrust more or adds more drag, however you want to see it, to the heavier aircraft.
If thrust from gravity seems odd consider sailplanes.
A vacuum only proves that the effect of gravity is constant regardless of weight where the drag of two items is different. A 10 lb bowling ball, and a 20 lb bowling ball with fall at the same rate (remember you stated "Assuming equal drag and thrust") if they are the same size, vacuum or no vacuum.
Newton also said "an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force" Remember, we are using your parameters of equal drag and thrust here, a heaver plane will dive at the same speed if thrust and drag are equal, however, the laws of momentum say that on the way up (zoom climb), the heaver object will be less effected by the identical drag experienced by the lighter plane, therefore zoom higher. Gravity will effect both identical otherwise objects identically.
Disclaimer:I am not Bill Nye the Science guy so my "simple" explanation is as good as I can go. Want better, ask Newton....
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Newton had no comment. The 20 lb ball falls faster due to the density difference but the speed difference is minor.
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Wpnx,
tonight at 6 pm mst (5pm pst), works for me. I'll look for you in the TA. If you can't make tonight let me know, and we can set something else up.
:salute
Sik
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Wpnx,
tonight at 6 pm mst (5pm pst), works for me. I'll look for you in the TA. If you can't make tonight let me know, and we can set something else up.
:salute
Sik
See you at 6 mountain.
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Fortunately for you WpnX, one thing the trainer corps has in droves are hog drivers. Sik1 is one of the best, especially at E management, in one.
:salute
BigRat
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I fly hog
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I fly hog
No glz, were not talkin about what you pick up at the bar:)
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Fortunately for you WpnX, one thing the trainer corps has in droves are hog drivers. Sik1 is one of the best, especially at E management, in one.
:salute
BigRat
For sure BR, can't believe I haven't tried the TA before, been making all these mistakes that Sik pointed out to me for years. Learned more in one session with Sik than I have after all these years of flying in the MA. Can't thank you enough Sik!
Elvis
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Sounds like you had a great time working with Sik1 in the TA, Elvis....good follow up review of your first time in the Training Arena!
As BigRat posted above, their are several "F4U Series preferred plane" Trainers & we all would be glad to help you in any way we can... Time Zone permitting...
Look forward to seeing you in the TA and the MA, next time....if you notice me first just go ahead and message me or call me out, heh,
If you need anything, Elvis, feel free to contact any of us ...hopefully we'll see you soon
Cheers & «§»
TC / Johnny
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You can talk to me also, I fly all the f4u's. My ingame ID is Rud3boi.
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I'll give you a quick rule of thumb:
The F4U1D and 1C are your carrier planes, (the 4hog too if you really need it for quick action). These planes are much better suited for CV and close quarter fights. They also carry the most Ord. Also, the CHog is a great De-acker and great for attacking bases. The Dhog can get into action a bit quicker and with only 1 gas tank is a little lighter. Its better for close action fights off the CV.
The 1A and the F4u1 and of course the F4u4 are the best planes to fly over land from base to base. The 1A and -1 are better at high alts compared to the 1D and 1C. Although the Chog is nasty at high alts too. These are the planes you want to take the time to get the most alt and to BnZ with the most. Now they can all turn great, but the F4Us are really meant to fly BnZ style like the P51 and only meant to turn fight if you have to or want to have fun. Once the F4us get slow and low on the deck they become an easy target for the most part.
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For those in the know, low and slow isn't alwwys a death sentence. I've surprised many in my time. :devil
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Elvis,
I'm glad I could help you out. Anytime you want to work on something let me know.
I would encourage you to get together with as many different trainers as you can. Not only in the hog but in other planes as well. The different perspectives, and different flying styles will give you a better understanding of the dynamics of the fights. Which ultimately will make you more successful in your engagements.
:salute
Sik
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TC,
Great work in the TA yesterday, I really appreciate your time. Learned a lot about the flight envelope, BRD and especially the break turn defense.
Can't thank you enough,
Elvis
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Anytime Elvis... I really enjoyed working with you........
check ya pm's for email info ( we used up every last oune of the time you had to practice, LOL, never got our emails to each other )
once we get past this last close Holiday, just tell me when we're back on for another session
you did Great! :aok
TC
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ROFL... Elvis got his first cheat accusation....congrats
nice work Sik1...
to funny
TC
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ROFL... Elvis got his first cheat accusation....congrats
nice work Sik1...
to funny
TC
LOL wtg Elvis :aok
:salute
Sik
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I'll give you a quick rule of thumb:
The F4U1D and 1C are your carrier planes, (the 4hog too if you really need it for quick action). These planes are much better suited for CV and close quarter fights. They also carry the most Ord. Also, the CHog is a great De-acker and great for attacking bases. The Dhog can get into action a bit quicker and with only 1 gas tank is a little lighter. Its better for close action fights off the CV.
The 1A and the F4u1 and of course the F4u4 are the best planes to fly over land from base to base. The 1A and -1 are better at high alts compared to the 1D and 1C. Although the Chog is nasty at high alts too. These are the planes you want to take the time to get the most alt and to BnZ with the most. Now they can all turn great, but the F4Us are really meant to fly BnZ style like the P51 and only meant to turn fight if you have to or want to have fun. Once the F4us get slow and low on the deck they become an easy target for the most part.
Vio, while some of your tips are good, some of this may be misleading.
First, your statement about "carrier planes" might have be misleading, because all of the F4U models are available from carriers. Perhaps you left the other models out because of your "best suited" assertion, but I would disagree with that.
In my opinion, the -1 or -1A are better suited if you expect to turn-fight, as they have the better turn performance, especially once flaps go out -- which is how you want to turn a Corsair. The -1A and the -1D have the same climb-rate, but the -1A is around 10 mph faster than the -1D at all alts. With the same fuel loadouts, the -1A has about 50% more operational time compared to the -1D, for a relatively small increase in weight. (This leads me to believe the -1A airframe itself is lighter, but I'll have to research that). The point of this difference in game is that the -1A can take 50% fuel for 22 min of flight time (for example) while the -1D requires 75% fuel for 22 min of flight time -- at which point they have the same weight. This extended flight time and speed is significant, in my opinion, as it gives you extra time you need to set and re-set your energy state. That is important with the F4U as it is not a great E-gainer. Neither plane is helpless low and slow, because of their excellent flaps-out performance, but as you said, F4U's don't regain energy very quickly, so even a small speed and flight-time advantage help in this regard.
My advice would be to treat the -1D as an attack aircraft that can be a very effective fighter, since as you (correctly) state, the -1D carries more ords. But once the flaps go out, the -1A should out-turn a -1D, so given the choice between fighting in a -1A or a -1D, I-d take the -1A for air-to-air combat. The perk plane Corsairs are a different story, with the -4 being one of the best (if not the best) performing piston-engine aircraft in the plane-set.
My two cents on Corsairs.
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I think you make a lot of great points kingpin, but the Dhog is simply more versatile in short range fighting and provides much more agile fighting off the CV by getting to a higher alt in a shorter period of time. Personally I disagree with your statement that the 1A out manuevers the the D because I think the D can float in better positions and get better angle shots. I've flown the F4Us since 2005. It's one of my favorite planes in the game, and I really pull out some of the best stats in the F4Us with an aggressive fighting style. I really understand how F4Us fly. It's a feeling but I'll go against the best and duke it out to prove a planes performance v the other. It's a lot of fun.
While they are both very similar in fashion. The DHog is the better base/carrier fighter because of its quicker response times and floating effect, while the AHog is better suited for long range high alt missions and mid range interceptors.
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As Kingpin pointed out, if you compare the 1A and 1D at the same fuel % the 1D is lighter and will handle accordingly.
The 1A with 75% fuel is still 200 lbs heavier than the 1D with 100% fuel so it's easy to see how the 1D gets a better reputation if you don't compare them at the same weight.
I don't recall why the 1A is 10 mph faster but I suspect that both aircraft match turns closely enough at the same weight. Easy to test by comparing speed and g.
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IIRC,and I dont fly corsairs but the 1A doesnt carry wing pylons unless ords are taken,the 1D has the pylons by default!
This would give that 10 mph difference,maybe??
:salute
PS: I'm betting it's closer to 8mph!
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The 1A is faster, sure, but the Dhog accelerates faster in a short carrier fight. The Dhog uses its floating technique to climb and gain angles in turn fights with its lighter response feeling to win battles more quickly agaisnt defenders like KI84s, spits, niks, and 109s from the enemy bases. The Dhog is just a more aggressive and quick reaction fighter than the 1A in the CV fight.
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to add to sustained turn performance for the F4U series:
all the F4U models F4U-1A, F4U-1C, F4U-1D and F4U-4 all have their best sustained turn rate with 2 notches of flaps out, once the 3rd notch of flaps is lowered it starts to degrade
this is not so with the F4U-1 model, to where once you drop the first set of Flaps, it's sustained turn rate will remain constant through out dropping each additional flap setting all the way to full flaps.... it is the only F4U model in the whole series that is different from the rest of them.
I relate it to being like this because of it being the most under powered of them all, yet I find knowing how to utilize this ability of the constant sustained turn rate through out 1 notches of flaps out all the way to all flaps out helps in surprising other players who fly spitfires, zeros, Hurri's and other plane models.....
I find setting trim to a manual trim setting of cruising speed ( roughly 320 to 330 IAS without wep ) and leaving it there, helps the F4U series ( all variants ) in regaining Energy faster, because the aircraft tends to pick up speed faster once the nose is pointed down without fighting against the combat trim ( relate it to unneeded Drag, my own personal opinion ).... players have tested this long ago, it is a very small advantage, but any advantage is good when trying to regain a split second over your opponent
I used to love flying the -1D model, even though my favorite has always been the -1..........but when the skins were updated and the big head armor protector was added in, I began to frown away from flying the -1D .....
Some Good points FLS, Kingpin, Violator
and Morfiend, you are recalling correctly regarding the pylons
Nice discussion going on in this thread :aok
Happy New Year! everyone
:cheers:
TC
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Do you guys have to tell Elvis all this stuff ??? He is already a pain in the, shall we use the term.... "buttocks", when found in the MA ! :old: :)
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Great info from everyone, I'm eatin this stuff up, anything I can learn to kill Pipz with is awesome.
One question though, I still get flap bounce / ballooning even after I turn combat trim off. I auto level at 325mph (tried 200 also), turn off combat trim and seem to have the same bounce when I deploy flaps.
Happy New Year to you all.... and yes, even Pipz.
Elvis
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Great info from everyone, I'm eatin this stuff up, anything I can learn to kill Pipz with is awesome.
One question though, I still get flap bounce / ballooning even after I turn combat trim off. I auto level at 325mph (tried 200 also), turn off combat trim and seem to have the same bounce when I deploy flaps.
Happy New Year to you all.... and yes, even Pipz.
Elvis
Happy New Year, Elvis, Sir!
What did we plan? Monday or Tuesday afternoon, first of the week?
I'll go through the whole advance scaling options with you, first thing in our next 2 hour to 2 1/2 hour session....
TC
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The way I look at it is; if the nose is ballooning up you are to fast for that flap setting. Try to be just a little slower before dropping a notch of flaps and that should help reduce the amount of ballooning you're experiencing.
:salute
Sik
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Sik nailed it pretty much spot on....
Sounds like you might be using that 2nd notch of flaps way to soon, while at to high rate of speed...(and possibly more notches of flaps)
TC
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One question though, I still get flap bounce / ballooning even after I turn combat trim off. I auto level at 325mph (tried 200 also), turn off combat trim and seem to have the same bounce when I deploy flaps.
It's normal for flap extension to change your pitch attitude. If you trim nose down as you extend the flaps that will help.
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The 1A is faster, sure, but the Dhog accelerates faster in a short carrier fight. The Dhog uses its floating technique to climb and gain angles in turn fights with its lighter response feeling to win battles more quickly agaisnt defenders like KI84s, spits, niks, and 109s from the enemy bases. The Dhog is just a more aggressive and quick reaction fighter than the 1A in the CV fight.
The Dhog can also be more "camouflaged" in that it will be underestimated far more than a -1 or 1A. If you see thise two, you know the pilot came just to fight. With the D, you might mistakenly assume they chose it for ground attack primarily. Not that it's easy to surprise people in a Corsair anymore, but still...
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-1 is the best.
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ROFL... Elvis got his first cheat accusation....congrats
nice work Sik1...
to funny
TC
That's an in game achievement isn't it? ("One with the haxxor" or something right?)