Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: lyric1 on January 10, 2016, 02:18:35 AM
-
Slightly confused by the term "Blow-up Operating" & "Blow-up Inoperative" in the charts related to the flap blow up speeds. The charts cover most of the Corsairs we have in game.
Looking at two flight manuals that cover all of the AHII aircraft except for the F4U-1A.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/51803163/F4U1-Pilots-handbook-FOI-1944pdf
http://aviationshoppe.com/manuals/f4u_4_manual/f4u-4_flight_operating_instructions.html
F4U-1
F4U-1C
F4U-1D
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/F4U%20Corsair/32-8f8c387691_zpsj1fmwrcr.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/F4U%20Corsair/32-8f8c387691_zpsj1fmwrcr.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/F4U%20Corsair/44-40ae8927d5_zpsncignp6a.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/F4U%20Corsair/44-40ae8927d5_zpsncignp6a.jpg.html)
F4U-4
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/F4U%20Corsair/f4u4%20b_zpszheed9qu.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/F4U%20Corsair/f4u4%20b_zpszheed9qu.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/F4U%20Corsair/f4u4_zpsbimcx5s6.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/F4U%20Corsair/f4u4_zpsbimcx5s6.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/F4U%20Corsair/f4u4%20a_zpszqkzfq5l.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/F4U%20Corsair/f4u4%20a_zpszqkzfq5l.jpg.html)
-
I think the difference in operation is one of cautionary measure. If the blow-up function of the flaps is inoperative, then it is very important for the pilot to be aware of his speed so as not to exceed operational limitations. However, since we do not have failures in AH, the strictest adherence to the maximum speed for each level of flap should be mandatory (a programmed/coded limitation). Otherwise, the aircraft will be operating outside of its realistic capabilities at any flap setting.
-
I think the difference in operation is one of cautionary measure. If the blow-up function of the flaps is inoperative, then it is very important for the pilot to be aware of his speed so as not to exceed operational limitations. However, since we do not have failures in AH, the strictest adherence to the maximum speed for each level of flap should be mandatory (a programmed/coded limitation). Otherwise, the aircraft will be operating outside of its realistic capabilities at any flap setting.
So the pilot can decide to make the flap Blow up inoperative?
Or is the blow up automatically activated once he hits the required Knots & then once the pilot exceeds the max Knots they retract.
Then that is when they are inoperative?
So at 200 knots & under he has full range of flaps 0-50 degrees.
Then at 3 notches of flaps 20-30 degrees max speed is 170 Knots & once that is hit it will retract to the second & first notch until he gets above 200 knots they will be fully retracted. :headscratch: Is that right?
-
No, no, I think they are referring to a failure. If there is a cockpit control for such I think I have never heard reference of it. I'll go over your manuals, but I don't remember ever seeing that.
If the pilot knows that the blow-up is functional, then he can operate up to 200 knots without fear. If it is not functional, then he must know the maximum operational speeds for each level of flaps as outlined in the manual. So, even with a functional blow-up device the aircraft could become damaged by operating above those speeds.
It should work the same way leaving your gear down does for the Typhoon, or P-51, except instead of shearing off there would be asymmetric deployment afterwards, or warped surfaces, or something like that.
If you want to test this just write out the levels and the maximum speeds (in knots) and then work out the conversion for mph. These speeds will be indicated speeds and operations will be below 8,000 feet, as they were originally conducted by Boone Guyton during WWII. I think his gauges would have been knots, whereas our gauges are mph I'm thinking. I think you're onto something here because when I tested it the speeds I got were not very close to the manual speeds, but I did rush through the procedure. To be sure you would want to conduct a careful, reproducible investigation.
-
Those speeds are limits for the specific flap settings.
If the blow-up system is operating you can select any flap setting, the blow up system will retract flaps based on airspeed to prevent damage.
If the system is not operating you may not select flaps outside of the safe range -- for 40 degrees you should be 145 or slower.
-
How is what you said any different from anything said already?
-
Its just more concise.
-
Thank you all for the reply's I think I get it. :aok
I upped a F4U-1D with one notch of flaps in the training arena & took off at the high alt bases at 20k 10k 5k & tried at 8k. In all cases at 1 notch of flaps they retracted at 249mph indicated.
Converting that into Knots I get.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/F4U%20Corsair/249%20c_zpsif2zbqwa.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/F4U%20Corsair/249%20c_zpsif2zbqwa.jpg.html)
That appears to be quicker than what the manual calls for with an indicated speed by.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/F4U%20Corsair/249%20b_zpspg6lihek.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/F4U%20Corsair/249%20b_zpspg6lihek.jpg.html)
-
Seems the F4U-4 is even a bit faster before 1 notch of flaps retract.
Same tests I did on the F4U-1D.
I get 250mph indicated.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/F4U%20Corsair/f4u%20n_zpsrlzc34im.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/F4U%20Corsair/f4u%20n_zpsrlzc34im.jpg.html)
It is faster than the manual by.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/F4U%20Corsair/f4u%20na_zpsuinrp1pf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/F4U%20Corsair/f4u%20na_zpsuinrp1pf.jpg.html)
-
Are you thinking that AH should match the blow up speeds?
-
Are you thinking that AH should match the blow up speeds?
Not really sure. :headscratch: What do you think on the matter?
-
I doubt the flaps would blow up right on the listed speeds. The listed speeds are safe limits, I think it's safe to assume there is some degree of "cushion" built into the speeds.
The B-24 has a blow up flap system. On the B-24 the manual states the flap limit speed is 155 IAS, at speeds over 155 there will be sufficient pressure on the flaps to open a relief valve at the operating cylinder and allow the flaps to retract. The manual also cautions not to flight test the feature "as the excessive pressures required for this operation might damage the mechanism".
-
You know all you have to do is find an F4U pilot and ask him. I think the Redbull team flies the F4U don't they? Simple solution would be to write them rather than fight over one another's opinions.
-
Not really sure. :headscratch: What do you think on the matter?
All the aircraft in AH auto retract flaps at their max deployment speeds. The F4U models don't include flap blow up, they just conform to the game design.
-
All the aircraft in AH auto retract flaps at their max deployment speeds. The F4U models don't include flap blow up, they just conform to the game design.
Gives them an advantage that they can deploy flaps at high speeds & then stay maneuverable when the flaps should have retracted.
-
Gives them an advantage that they can deploy flaps at high speeds & then stay maneuverable when the flaps should have retracted.
Is that worse than the other aircraft whose flaps retract when they should be damaged?
-
Is that worse than the other aircraft whose flaps retract when they should be damaged?
Have not looked into other aircraft & the flight manuals to see what they do or don't with regards to blow up.
-
Is that worse than the other aircraft whose flaps retract when they should be damaged?
False argument, since there are several areas of "damage" that do not occur, ever. In the case of the F4U flaps (if they really are out of spec) a difference of 20-30mph would be "inventing" data rather then sticking to documented evidence. We have never seen HiTech accept anything except empirical data, so you would expect the F4U to adhere to that.
-
Anyone else notice the drop tanks, pilon, and landing gear limits?
MAX DIVING SPEED:
Landing gear: 200 knots-230 MPH
Center drop tank: 375 knots- 431 MPH
Twin pylon drop tank 375 knots- 431 MPH
-
False argument, since there are several areas of "damage" that do not occur, ever. In the case of the F4U flaps (if they really are out of spec) a difference of 20-30mph would be "inventing" data rather then sticking to documented evidence. We have never seen HiTech accept anything except empirical data, so you would expect the F4U to adhere to that.
You ignore my point to nitpick a rethorical question. :D
This is my point.
All the aircraft in AH auto retract flaps at their max deployment speeds. The F4U models don't include flap blow up, they just conform to the game design.
-
You have no point, so I corrected your misleading, and pointless comment.
-
I did, and I thnk this should be changed for gear ASAP, mis-used as a diving break today.
Anyone else notice the drop tanks, pilon, and landing gear limits?
MAX DIVING SPEED:
Landing gear: 200 knots-230 MPH
Center drop tank: 375 knots- 431 MPH
Twin pylon drop tank 375 knots- 431 MPH
-
I did, and I thnk this should be changed for gear ASAP, mis-used as a diving break today.
The dive break was operated by a different handle than the landing gear. The main landing gear is the dive break the dive break handle deployed the landing gear only & not the tail wheel. The tail wheel would get damaged at the speeds the dive break could be deployed.
-
And really the landing gear didn't deploy. The dive brake is just the little door toward the front. I've forgotten id the main doors opened, but I don't think they did at all.
-
And really the landing gear didn't deploy.
Nope, the main landing gear did deploy as a dive brake with the tail wheel retracted like lyric said.
-----------------
As a general note: it would be nice if the dive brake command in game would be in use in the F4Us and would operate the main gear alone instead of the generic use of the landing gear command as the dive brake.
-
You're right. I had another look and the "partial deployment" was obviously talking about the tailwheel remaining up.
-
And really the landing gear didn't deploy. The dive brake is just the little door toward the front. I've forgotten id the main doors opened, but I don't think they did at all.
Also, considering the main landing gear struts are fixed TOO that front door (or vice versa) it would be impossible for just the front door to open and not extend the gear.
IIRC, the dive brake position also didn't lock the landing gear in place.
-
Also, considering the main landing gear struts are fixed TOO that front door (or vice versa) it would be impossible for just the front door to open and not extend the gear.
IIRC, the dive brake position also didn't lock the landing gear in place.
According to the manual excerpt posted above the gear does lock down when used as a dive brake. It has a warning not to extend above 260IAS since the gear may not "fully extend or lock".
-
Are you thinking that AH should match the blow up speeds?
I think it should. It would give more of a "look and feel" of the real thing.
-
I think it should. It would give more of a "look and feel" of the real thing.
He posed the question to get Lyric questioning his own logic. There is nothing wrong with Lyric's logic.