Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hristo on September 08, 2001, 07:18:00 AM
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Bring them in !
Both Spitdweebs and Japanese need a faster plane.
Adding them would also lessen the N1K whines :).
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
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Hehe.
That's what i've been saying this whole time! Gimme my spit XIV and you won't hear a peep outta me about the N1K
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both countries already got good fighters.
give effort to countries that need a certain plane type that they don't already have (e.g. british medium bomber, japanese medium bomber, german heavy bomber, german anti-tank plane, goons for all countries but the US.)
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Put it this way then. Every country needs a fast fighter. Japan has none. Ki-84 IS much needed.
We got D-9. RAFdweebs got Tempest, but perked. Spit XIV is 1944 plane. It belongs here.
Bombers ? Who cares about friggin' bombers ?!?
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
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A lot of people care about bombers. And no country can compete in the CT without a good one. Doesn't it seem odd that the spit we have now went from being a late 43-early 44 spit to being a '42 spit?
I think the japanese and british can wait for a new fighter. They do need planes of other types, though. Just my opinion.
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This game is still called Aces High. If it was about bombers, it would be called Sissies Ultra High. I really see no fun in current wannabe-strat system with pinpoint accuracy and bomber gun range.
Japanese and British can't and shouldn't wait for new fighter any longer. We are getting 262 next version. It would be ultimate hypocrisy to deny them competitive machines with current planeset. New bombers are lame excuse.
As much as I would like to see Me 410 here, I think it should wait. Dweebs deserve their Spit XIVs and Hayates.
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BTW, I believe it is He 177 Greif, not Grief ;)
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thanks for the correction about the greif (i'm no german). Anyway, I'm curious to know why the dweebs deserve their XIV's and Ki-84's. Both countries already have good fighters, but are lacking elsewhere.
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As a Dora pilot, I want the stakes raised. Against Spit IX and Niki I only have to point nose down and I am safe. That ain't right.
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Doesn't it seem odd that the spit we have now went from being a late 43-early 44 spit to being a '42 spit?
I don't understand what you mean. The AH Spit IX has always been a 1942 version, even if some people claim otherwise.
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I'll shill unabashedly for the Japanese planeset every chance I get. Its good to see others asking for the Hayate too, but it doesn't mean we don't want other plane types for the Japanese.
Man, there are so many that are missing. Japan was the other major Axis power in WWII, and they have only 3 aircraft here- 2 mid-war fighters and 1 late-war job.
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IJAAF needs to get more new planes in AH.
IJNAF already has best fighter, but IJAAF not.
Ki-84-Ia is a good addition!
If Ki-84-Ia and Ki-67 Bomber are added in the same time, I will be really really happy. :)
Mitsu
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: Mitsu ]
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Adding them would also lessen the N1K whines.
There is no whining about N1s, only valid constructive criticism for HT to address in the next patch.
So, let's consider 14s and Franks and what they bring to the game. More importantly, let's consider the type of pilot who'd want to fly such planes.
Simple answer: these planes are desired by those who want the ability to run down all other planes and then out-turn them once they catch them. People who lack the skill to do anything other than yank and bank or BnZ and therefore desire having a crutch like this. People with no conception of how to convert E to angles and back again. The same sort of person who uses the N1 or La7 for a crutch at present.
Still want them?
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Aces flew buffs too...
SKurj
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Bullethead,
You forget that there are some people who genuinely like the Ki84 and Spitfire MkXIV for the aircraft themselves not simply because they are easier to kill with.
I agree that the Ki84-Ia Hayate should be added soon and I think that it will pull many people out of the N1K2-J Shiden-Kai.
On the other hand I do not think that the Spitfire F.MkXIV (my favorite WWII aircraft) should be added to AH as a non-perk aircraft. I think it would be too powerful and disruptive to the MA if it were not perked. As I have relatively little use for perk planes I don't see any hurry in adding the Spit XIV.
BTW, I'd hardly call people like Mitsu unskilled.
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Fish bait?
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Bullethead,
You forget that there are some people who genuinely like the Ki84 and Spitfire MkXIV for the aircraft themselves not simply because they are easier to kill with.
I agree that the Ki84-Ia Hayate should be added soon and I think that it will pull many people out of the N1K2-J Shiden-Kai.
On the other hand I do not think that the Spitfire F.MkXIV (my favorite WWII aircraft) should be added to AH as a non-perk aircraft. I think it would be too powerful and disruptive to the MA if it were not perked. As I have relatively little use for perk planes I don't see any hurry in adding the Spit XIV.
BTW, I'd hardly call people like Mitsu unskilled.
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
No, but by and large he is right. People would fly the Ki-84 and the Spit XIV or F. 21 because they were the "best" airplane in the arena, NOT because of their historical reputation. If you truly believe that more than a handful of people, even those who play this game, have some sort of indepth knowledge about the Ki-84 (and want to fly it BECAUSE of that), well, nevermind. In my opinion, they don't.
I'm not even going to bother posting a long message. Go back up and read bullethead's message if you want to know what I'd say.
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I would like to see both of the planes listed above. however I would expect them to be perked as well.
As for new Bombers, yes the Germans need a heavier buff, but I don't know what that would be since I don't know German airplanes well.
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id like them but they better be cheap perks (im talking c hog range)
any doofus can raise 7 perk points but it keeps it from being completely dominating
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Posted by Hristo:
British can't and shouldn't wait for new fighter any longer. We are getting 262 next version.
british dweeb need a faster plane.
Climb in Tempest!!!! :p
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: martell0 ]
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Originally posted by Bullethead:
...let's consider 14s and Franks and what they bring to the game. More importantly, let's consider the type of pilot who'd want to fly such planes.
Simple answer: these planes are desired by those who want the ability to run down all other planes and then out-turn them once they catch them. People who lack the skill to do anything other than yank and bank or BnZ and therefore desire having a crutch like this. People with no conception of how to convert E to angles and back again. The same sort of person who uses the N1 or La7 for a crutch at present.
Still want them?
You bet I do. But for different reasons than you suggest.
The Ki.84 is a sub-400 mph aircraft. It's not going to run down every other plane in the arena. There are a number of planes that are going to outturn it. There are a number of planes that outgun it. But it is no doubt the best package Nakajima and the Japanese Army Air Force out into the sky in significant numbers during WWII.
Including an aircraft in a simulation such as Aces High pays a small but real honor to the nation that put it in the field, the company that designed and built it, and the men who flew and maintained it. It adds variety to the game both in the MA and CT and scenarios. There is no way I would ever discourage HTC from including a plane because I was afraid of its performance. I do encourage HTC to perk aircraft if they become too dominant in the MA however.
There will always be people who choose to fly the hottest performing aircraft because it gives them a better chance at success. I'd rather these people have more choices than fewer.
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I don't think it's fair at all to assume that people who wat the spit XIV are people who fly the N1K or the LA7. I'd be all over the kittyhawk or something more late war if that was the case. I just am in love with the spit.. I have started flying them when I started this game and I'll prolly finish with the spit too.
If you know how to fly the V it's the best plane in the game IMO.
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FDisk said:
I don't think it's fair at all to assume that people who wat the spit XIV are people who fly the N1K or the LA7.
Perhaps not the same people, but people who want the same thing these current planes give you only without the stigma that comes with them. They want to both go faster and turn better than people in most other planes, which can only do one or the other well.
Good pilots can beat you no matter what the plane match-up is. But it should be obvious to all that at least 80% of the pilot population isn't that good. And they know it themselves, so they want to even the odds by having a plane that's superior in almost all situations they're likely to get into. Because such average pilots are the vast majority, we currently see huge herds of N1s and La7s, even though perhaps only half of average pilots fly them regularly.
The spit9 and 51 also get a lot of use, but they are borderline on this double-advantaged class themselves, although not enough to make them truly spectacular. Most other planes are rarely flown in comparison, which is too bad. Not only did HTC put a lot of effort into making them, but they are perfectly good planes. They're just stuck in an incompatible environment, thanks to the unlimited availability of double-advantaged planes.
I don't see how adding Franks and 14s would help this situation any. At best, there will still be the same overwhelming abundance of double-advantaged planes in the air, although there would be a greater variety of types of them. At worst, having more of them on the plane list will encourage more people to fly them, to the further detriment of the other planes.
If you know how to fly the V it's the best plane in the game IMO.
I feel the same way about the FWa8. But in a world filled with turnfighters that can run it down, how much action does it see in the arena? Damn little. The main FW you see is the Dora because it's fast enough to be hard for anything to catch. But all the FWs types taken together saw only 1/2 as much use as the N1 last TD. Considering the respective production figures for these planes, this is ridiculous. But as long as there is no shortage of planes with both speed and turn advantages on it, I don't see this situation changing any.
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Bullethead ]
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Bullethead ]
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oboe said:
The Ki.84 is a sub-400 mph aircraft.
Hardly. It could do well over 400. Below 10k it was neck-and-neck with the Pony and even slightly faster at about 5k. It was, simply, one of the fastest planes of the war, at least below 10k. Which is where most AH fights seem to take place.
True, it doesn't turn QUITE as well as a few other planes, but given the Frank's ability to keep and regain E during a turnfight, this is no problem at all. As for guns, it's got the same as a spit and I don't see anybody thinking that can't hurt you.
Including an aircraft in a simulation such as Aces High pays a small but real honor to the nation that put it in the field, the company that designed and built it, and the men who flew and maintained it.
Hogwash. Putting a plane into AH is a business decision pure and simple. "Will it make the game more fun, thereby keeping old players and bringing in new ones?" Or at least that's how it SHOULD be decided. And the vast bulk of end users for sure don't care about tributes--they just want a fun game.
There is no way I would ever discourage HTC from including a plane because I was afraid of its performance. I do encourage HTC to perk aircraft if they become too dominant in the MA however.
OK, then tell my why planes become too dominant? Hmmm.... just a wild guess here, but I think it might be because of their performance. Maybe if they were both faster and more maneuverable than most other planes in the game, a lot of dweebs would fly them in hopes of gaining an edge that their lack of skill denies them, rather than learning to fly the other planes more effectively.
But I just pulled that out of my ass. I've only been flying since '94 so no doubt lack your extensive experience in these matters. I'm sure you've got a better answer.
I'm not afraid of fighting any plane. What I am afraid of is the effect on play balance and overall fun that introducing more very fast turnfighters will have on the game. We already see way too damn much of this type of plane. Adding more of them will definitely not remove FWs from the endangered species list.
There will always be people who choose to fly the hottest performing aircraft because it gives them a better chance at success. I'd rather these people have more choices than fewer.
I'd rather see these people learn to really fly and fight relying on their skill instead of their crutch plane. Better quality opposition equals more fun and challenge. Constantly fighting dweebs in superplanes gets boring after a short while.
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Its a sad fact. Give players something that gives them an easy edge over others and it gets overused/abused.
I'd urge HTC to perk planes based on their performance against the other planes in the set. When and IF HTC adds early war planes, who's gonna fly them? I hardly see 109 f4's or c202/205's out there. Its mostly n1ks, la7's, 109g10's p51d's and 190d9's. Why? Those planes easily give a player the advantage over the rest of the planeset. Some of these planes do require some skill to be succesfull in them, but the fact remains they do give a performance boost over the great majority of the planeset.
I dunno if itd be best to separate the tour into 10 day periods first 10 days free early war planes, mid war perked (cheaply) late war planes perked (expensive), next 10 days have the early war planes gain 2X perk gaining, mid war unperked, late war perked (cheaply), last 10 days have early war planes 4X perkie gain, mid war 2X perkie gain, late war unperked.
The uber monsters like tempest, me262 , etc remain perked but their price lowers every 10 day period.
OR
perk them as per their performance vs the rest of the set.
*shrug*
In short, id like to see a balanced use of the planeset, not have 90% of the playerbase zooming around in late war speed planes or late war turnplanes all the time. So far, its seems any early planes modeled by HTC see so little use its a waste of efforts.
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Bullethead, Take your own advice and learn to fly the 202. You are seeking the same thing your complaining about.
Reread your post.
NUTTZ
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Tac, at least you attack the plane and not the people who fly them.
By some peoples Idea of why not to bring the Ki into AH, Would be the same as removing the F4-D,P38,P47,F6F, and half the LW iron.
Think about it...
NUTTZ
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Yea Urchin, rewrite history and lets forget japan ever had a KI-84 Geeeezzzzz...
I find it very amusing you people don't want to see the Ki-84 come to AH, because it was too good a fighter, so you want to rewrite history and act like it was never made or in WW2. And then go as far as having the Insight of peoples personalities of who would fly them IF they were in here.
Well what is it? to good a plane to bring into AH?
Oh, then YOU won't have the advantage in your favorite plane?
Or is it these Dweebs are not dweebs and kill you? cause if they were surely "dweebs" then why be afraid of what they fly?
KI will be the sharpest turner AND the fastest plane? get real!
Learn to fight N1K2's, learn to fight KI's and quit blaming it on the Plane or the "dweeb" flying it and put the blame where it belongs... on your lack of flying your own plane to it's proper abilities.
NUTTZ
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: NUTTZ ]
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The Fw190D-9 has one short comming, it doesn't turn well. In all other things it is near the top of the performance bracket.
Very poor turn rate.
Very poor turn radius.
Poor E retention.
2nd fastest non-perk fighter at AH combat altitudes.
2nd or 3rd best climber.
Best roll rate.
Good visibility.
Good ammo load.
Adequate guns (its second weakest point).
Plenty of fuel range.
Great acceleration.
Great zoom climber.
Great diver.
Compare that with the N1K2 that gets whined about so much:
4th best turn rate.
Good turn radius.
Great E retention.
Below average speed at AH combat altitudes.
Good climber.
Poor roll rate.
Good visibility.
Great ammo load.
Great firepower.
Plenty of fuel range.
Good acceleration.
Good zoom climber.
Good diver.
Why do we not hear about the advantages of the Fw190D-9? All we hear are the whines about the N1K2.
The Ki84 will be a better rolling, worse turning, slightly faster (392mph at 19,000ft, not 400+mph and 345mph at sea level) and slightly worse turning fighter than the N1K2. The Fw190D-9 and Bf109G-10 will still easily out fly it if flown to their strengths.
Why does it surprise you guys that Japan's late war fighters are capable? They surprised us with the A6M Zero (the first carrier fighter to match the performance of land based fighters mind you), why would they suddenly be unable to produce good fighters?
I see so much ranting about how your 1942 and 1943 German fighters are at a disadvantage against late 1944 Japanese fighters. Well, what did you expect? Do you so believe the German propaganda that it is impossible for you to accept that a 1944 Japanese fighter will hand a 1942 German fighter its ass?
Do you want everything that gives your preffered ride trouble to be perked oe removed? How is that fair? Doesn't setting it up so that your 1942 or 1943 German fighter has the advantage just force the problem onto somebody else while eliminating most of the aircraft from the game?
Whay does a German fighter have to be the top dog? What is wrong with a Japanese fighter being the top dog?
I think that the Ki84-Ia Hayate would be fine in the context of our late war planeset. It'll annoy me in some ways, but it'll make a lot of other people happy and allow the to have quite a bit of fun? It won't replace the N1K2 due to its ammo load, but it will drain some of those guys off of the N1K2 numbers.
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Originally posted by NUTTZ:
Yea Urchin, rewrite history and lets forget japan ever had a KI-84 Geeeezzzzz...
Do me a favor and point out for me where I said this. Don't recall saying it, but I may be mistaken.
I find it very amusing you people don't want to see the Ki-84 come to AH, because it was too good a fighter, so you want to rewrite history and act like it was never made or in WW2. And then go as far as having the Insight of peoples personalities of who would fly them IF they were in here.
Again, please point out where we said we want to re-write history so this plane won't be put in Aces High. About our amatuer pyschology- well, you can feel free to disagree, I couldn't care less what your opinion is anyway.
Well what is it? to good a plane to bring into AH?
Yes, pretty much. I'm not sure if it is "to good", but when the Spit 14 or the Ki-84 comes in, you will see probably 75% of the N1K, Spit, and La-7 pilots switch to it. Not to sure about the P-51 pilots. But you'd see 75% of the population of N1K, Spit, and La7 drivers jump to that airplane. It'd have 30% of the kills the first month it was introduced, I can almost guarantee it.
Oh, then YOU won't have the advantage in your favorite plane?
Not gonna bother responding to this. Oh, by the way, where'd you get your "Insight of peoples personalities "? Only valid when YOU do it, huh?
Or is it these Dweebs are not dweebs and kill you? cause if they were surely "dweebs" then why be afraid of what they fly?
Please point out to me where I said this. You can go back to any thread, by the way. Not sure, but I'm fairly certain I've never said this either.
KI will be the sharpest turner AND the fastest plane? get real!
Your right, my mistake. It would be faster than the N1k, and turn marginally worse. It would still turn better than any 109, any 190, any P51, any P47, the F4U, the La5 and 7, the Yak, the C202, the C205, and probably the F6F and the P38 as well. By the way, I personally don't consider the N1K slow.
Learn to fight N1K2's, learn to fight KI's and quit blaming it on the Plane or the "dweeb" flying it and put the blame where it belongs... on your lack of flying your own plane to it's proper abilities.
Thanks for the advice. I'm sure I can use it :rolleyes:
NUTTZ
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: NUTTZ ]
By the way.. I think you MIGHT be considered somewhat biased, considering your score from last tour.
"nuttz has 203 kills and has been killed 87 times in the N1K2"...
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
The Fw190D-9 has one short comming, it doesn't turn well. In all other things it is near the top of the performance bracket.
Very poor turn rate.
Very poor turn radius.
Poor E retention.
2nd fastest non-perk fighter at AH combat altitudes.
2nd or 3rd best climber.
Best roll rate.
Good visibility.
Good ammo load.
Adequate guns (its second weakest point).
Plenty of fuel range.
Great acceleration.
Great zoom climber.
Great diver.
Compare that with the N1K2 that gets whined about so much:
4th best turn rate.
Good turn radius.
Great E retention.
Below average speed at AH combat altitudes.
Good climber.
Poor roll rate.
Good visibility.
Great ammo load.
Great firepower.
Plenty of fuel range.
Good acceleration.
Good zoom climber.
Good diver.
Why do we not hear about the advantages of the Fw190D-9? All we hear are the whines about the N1K2.
The Ki84 will be a better rolling, worse turning, slightly faster (392mph at 19,000ft, not 400+mph and 345mph at sea level) and slightly worse turning fighter than the N1K2. The Fw190D-9 and Bf109G-10 will still easily out fly it if flown to their strengths.
Why does it surprise you guys that Japan's late war fighters are capable? They surprised us with the A6M Zero (the first carrier fighter to match the performance of land based fighters mind you), why would they suddenly be unable to produce good fighters?
I see so much ranting about how your 1942 and 1943 German fighters are at a disadvantage against late 1944 Japanese fighters. Well, what did you expect? Do you so believe the German propaganda that it is impossible for you to accept that a 1944 Japanese fighter will hand a 1942 German fighter its ass?
Do you want everything that gives your preffered ride trouble to be perked oe removed? How is that fair? Doesn't setting it up so that your 1942 or 1943 German fighter has the advantage just force the problem onto somebody else while eliminating most of the aircraft from the game?
Whay does a German fighter have to be the top dog? What is wrong with a Japanese fighter being the top dog?
I think that the Ki84-Ia Hayate would be fine in the context of our late war planeset. It'll annoy me in some ways, but it'll make a lot of other people happy and allow the to have quite a bit of fun? It won't replace the N1K2 due to its ammo load, but it will drain some of those guys off of the N1K2 numbers.
Karnak- I've got a question for you. Why did you think the F4U-1C should be perked? Was it because you weren't a good enough pilot to shoot them down? That must have been it, since you think that is the only POSSIBLE reason anyone could EVER have for wanting to limit the availability of a plane. So instead of saying that the F4U-1C needed to be perked, why didn't you "improve your skillz, get 1337", and shoot them down?
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Oh, lastly. Nuttz, since you seem to firmly believe that I'm some sort of inferior pilot, lets head over to the DA someday soon. We can even fly Niki's, since that is all you fly. It'll be the same plane, so the only thing that will play a factor in the outcome will be the skill of the pilot.
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OK, whiners. If you will have trouble fighting Ki84 in 190D-9, then step out of the Dora. You don't know how to fly it right.
Geeez, take your plane the way it is. Fight anything in it. Stop those toejamty whines. Niki giving your Dora trouble ? Sheeesh, shut up already !
And any time you start whining about NIki FM this, Spit FM that, remember this. Fishu made absolute best streak in Fw 190A-8 !! 200+ kills, no deaths, against Nikis, P51s, 109G-10s, Spits, and La5s.
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
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I don't believe you guys who don't want the Ki.84 or Spit XIV are afraid to fly against them. I think you're concerned that their introduction will lead to an arena dominated by one or two plane types, flown by a bunch of average pilots, who rely on the plane's superior performance for success rather than learning ACM. And that makes for a boring arena after a while. But isn't that what's going on right now with the N1K2 and LA-7? And isn't that exactly the situation the perk point system was designed to influence, and proven that it can?
I'd really like to see the Japanese planeset expanded, so that PTO events and settings in the CT will be more interesting. There were over 3500 Ki.84's produced and beginning in 1944, they fought in China and the Phillippines. There were less than 500 N1K2's produced, and these were used mainly for home defence of the Japanese isles. To me, its a shame that such a significant Japanese fighter isn't represented in the game.
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Again, you people are comparing ONLY late war plane vs late war plane. Dora Vs. N1k, 109g10 vs n1k, p-51 vs n1k, la7 vs n1k...
These are only 5 planes in the game. Yet they are more than 80% of the planes that you see flying out there. Only a late war plane has a chance against the n1k, only a late war plane has a chance against the la-7, etc etc. When I say "chance" I mean that it is not overwhelmingly outmatched in one aspect of performance. 190A5/c205/109f4 vs n1k (or la7, etc etc)... the 190a5/// driver will have to be *quite* good with that bird when fighting a low skill pilot in a late warbird.
I stand with oboe 100% on his statement. HTC should control the use of late war planes by making them cheap perks (like the CHOG).
"Tac, at least you attack the plane and not the people who fly them"
Dont misjudge me, I consider any n1k driver to be the scum of the earth. Flying a plane with a known FM defect that gives it an unholy advantage is almost like exploiting a bug. The problem is with the plane yes (its getting fixed next version hopefully), but its the players that abuse it that imo are the biggest problem.
I hate to see a cloud of la7's, but ill engage them without any bad thoughts. I see a n1k, I start wishing a lightning hits his house, fries his PC and leaves him unable to go to the crapper on his own for a week. :D :D :D *G*
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Tac ]
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Tac, we have a perk system, you know.
Anyway, best planes will always be flown more than others. Be that Spit XIV, Bf 109E or Hellcat. Otherwise we all could just set for one plane type only and have one happy sim. BTW, what is a best plane ? Speed ? Guns ? Turning ? Quite a debate.
Personally, I would like both XIV and Ki84 unperked. A real challenge to take off in arena full of those ;).
Niki pilot scum ? Nah, he is most likely Quakeish type who doesn't live long enough to see a FM bug. All he cares about is a good turner with big guns.
Most of our planes are with 10% performance differences. It really is a pilot who makes the difference. Got shot down in P-38 vs Niki ? You didn't stay high and expected more out of your ride. Be smarter next time. Spit shot your G-10 ? You most likely blew it. Concentrate on flying instead of whining about FMs.
Killing a Niki in 190A-8 is so sweet. Strafing chute of poor sob even sweeter. Please, keep the challenge.
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
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Right hristo. Here's what I mean:
P-51D Perked : 5 perks
109g10 Perked : 5 perks
190d9 Perked : 5 perks
CHOG Perked : 8 perks
La7 Perked : 5 perks
Tempest : Perked : 20 perks
Arado : Perked :10 perks
Me-262 Perked : 50 perks
(unfixed) n1k : 5 perks (unperked if fixed)
Ki84 Perked : 5 perks
Sort of like that. It aint punishing against the common player, it makes the planes accessible to them after a mission or 2, and it will trim down on the overpopulation of late war rides. Most planes in the MA now have an earlier version of them, I see no reason why it cant be done.
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NUTTZ said:
Bullethead, Take your own advice and learn to fly the 202. You are seeking the same thing your complaining about. Reread your post.
I don't know where you got that.
Look, maybe I'm just too old-school here but for game balance I like the yin-yang sharp divide between planes optimized for turnfighting and planes optimized for E-fighting (NOT BnZ, mind you). When "dissimilar aircraft" really means something. The E-fighter's guns and speed are balanced by its poor sustained turn performance and rapid E-bleeding during maneuvering. The turnfighter's sustained turn performance and usually better E-retention through long maneuvers is balanced by its lower top speed and short clip.
When such planes meet, each pilot has to play a totally different game, using his plane's strengths which are opposite from his opponent's. It's a total chess match requiring mastery of your own aircraft and thorough knowledge of how the other guy is going to play it and how you need to react to it. Both planes have a real chance to win and the loser is usually he who makes the 1st mistake: getting out of one of his strengths, misjudging relative E balance, etc. In such environments, you see both types of plane flown a lot.
Problems arise when you introduce planes that blur the distinction between turnfighters and E-fighters. Call these things double-advantaged planes. They put traditional E-fighters right out of business because they are largely immune to the tactics E-fighters have to use. Furthermore, most E-fighters can't even safely disengage from them. They also put a crimp on traditional turnfighters because they have more options in the fight: they can turn AND they can use E-tactics, and swap back and forth during the fight.
With planes like this always available, the arena becomes a boring place. E-fighters largely disappear except for jabo and CV ops. A lot of the slower stallfighters also disappear. And you get herds of these double-advantaged planes running around.
We already have this situation. I'm sure many agree it's not optimal. Adding more of these double-advantaged planes will NOT improve things. Might as well just reduce the planeset to this type of plane because they get the vast bulk of the use.
If you believe that perking is the answer, then I suggest that the perk itself and its cost should be based on driving the average plane mix in the arena toward the desired state. If the desired state is the great divide between turnfighters and E-fighters, so that we see a lot of both of them flying, then double-advantaged planes should be perked very expensively, planes that come close should be perked cheaply, and planes that are firmly in one camp or the other should not be perked at all.
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So, it boils down to that you don't want plane XXX because it is too good ?
This is a WWII planes sim. If plane XXX was in WWII, it should be in this sim.
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Yes hristo is right. give the me262 unperked. Lets see how the arena turns out after a week. *sigh*
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Hristo said:
So, it boils down to that you don't want plane XXX because it is too good ?
:rolleyes: OK, I'll try again, hopefully in terms you might be able to grasp.....
A plane set in a game like AH should be like a set of wrenches. None of them can do everything but each does something very well. Therefore, you always see a wide variety of plane types in the air because no plane is totally outmatched--all of them have a specialty they can use. You have interesting dissimilar aircraft match-ups all the time.
When you start adding "crescent wrench" planes, however, you lose this. Planes that can do everything in terms of air-to-air combat come to dominate the population. This isn't speculation, it's friggin' fact. Look at the stats for the last few camps. The reason is obvious--these planes work very well in all situations, not just some special niche. Sure, most such planes can't carry much so you'll see something else used as a jabo now and then, but for just fighting the arena becomes boring. Same planes in droves, same match-ups all the time, mostly vs. similar if not identical aircraft. Yawn.
Is this a result of these planes being "too good"? At the bottom line, you could call it that. But the main reason I don't want such planes around is because they make the arena a very boring place by upsetting the balance struck by older, more specialized planes.
This is a WWII planes sim. If plane XXX was in WWII, it should be in this sim.
Regardless of its effect on game quality? That's not a smart way of doing things. Lower-performance early-war and mid-war planes don't get flown when more capable, late-war planes are in unlimimted availability.
If you want to have these late-war superplanes in the game, then you either have to perk them severely so that they are very rare, thus allowing other planes to get some use, OR you have ONLY these late-war superplanes because that's all that's going to see much action.
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I think Bullet has valid concerns here, and it sounds like he's been around sims long enough to see bad things happen to play balance when dominant planes are introduced.
I do think perking is the answer to the arena imbalance, but I wouldn't base the perk value entirely on the aircraft's performance stats. That would open a big can of worms. We can't even agree on the Ki.84's max speed-- how could we ever agree on a plane's instantaneous or max sustained turn rate? (And I won't even touch weapon lethality). ;)
I'd simply base perk values on the aircraft's use in the arena. If an aircraft starts dominating the arena in terms of sorties flown and kills made, then next tour it gets automatically perked. The greater its use percentage and K/D ratio, the higher the perk cost. And perk costs don't have to be in the 50-70 range to be effective. Even a cheap perk cost like 8 pts took the F4U-1C off the top of the list and dropped it to a more reasonable level of use in the arena. If a perk plane is seeing very little use, then next tour its cost could be lowered by some amount.
I like the cheap perk idea Tac suggested a few posts up, but I think even a cost of 1 or 2 points would make a difference. We just haven't seen much experimentation with perk costs, so its hard to say for sure.
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Originally posted by Urchin:
Karnak- I've got a question for you. Why did you think the F4U-1C should be perked? Was it because you weren't a good enough pilot to shoot them down? That must have been it, since you think that is the only POSSIBLE reason anyone could EVER have for wanting to limit the availability of a plane. So instead of saying that the F4U-1C needed to be perked, why didn't you "improve your skillz, get 1337", and shoot them down?
No, I almost always had a positive K/D ratio against them.
The reason that I wanted the F4U-1C perked was because it did too many jobs too well.
Need to do a fighter sweep? Fly an F4U-1C.
Need to attack and airfield? Fly an F4U-1C.
Need to attack GVs? Fly an F4U-1C.
When the answer to each question is the same fighter, unless you want to take a disadvantage, the thing needs to be perked.
Right now there are a lot of N1K2s and Spit IXs because those are relatively easy to get kills in, but they can hardly do all the jobs (N1K2 shouldn't be the tank kiler it is, new armor model in 1.08 should fix this).
Need to do a fighter sweep? Fly an N1K2-J.
Need to attack and airfield? Fly a P-47D-30 or P-38L.
Need to attack GVs? Fly a Typhoon.
I am happy that the most popular aircraft (both of them) are some of the slowest. It helps keep the MA at a more reasonable speed.
Tac,
What confirmed error in the N1K2's FM? Last I heart HTC was going to look at it.
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Lift, E-retention. Wasnt all this mentioned in an old thread Pyro put a while ago?
I prefer making all these late war planes cheap perks. It worked with the CHOG, not many people take it up in the unholy swarms of past tours. It proves the perk system does work to control such planes. No need to make them overly expensive. Planes with too much advantage (me 262 for example) should retain a relative high perk cost, as they would be hard to shoot down too. If a late war plane has an earlier variant of itself, perk the late variant. Those who dont have earlier variants, look at their performance vs the early planeset and either perk it cheaper accordingly or dont perk it until the earlier variant is put in (to this I can point to the P-38. Its the "late war" variant, yet it nominally outperforms the rest of the early planeset.. and the 38 we have here is for all purposes, a slow & heavier 38J since the dive flaps hardly work... or the c205..its the "later" version but it doesnt outperform the rest of the planeset, this it doesnt get perked).
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Tac,
As I recall he was guessing that something in that area might be off not confirming that something was off. FWIW I am expecting a revised N1K2-J FM in 1.08, but I'm not expecting it to suddenly suck like many seem to be hoping for.
The problem with making the late war stuff a perk is that there is very little non-late war stuff in the game.
If 1944 and 1945 stuff were all perked, we'd have the following as freebies in 1.08:
B-26B
C-47A
F4U-1
F4U-1D
LTV-2
LTV-4A
M3
M8
M16
P-51B
PT Boat
TBM-3
Bf109F-4
Bf109G-2
Bf109G-6
Fw190A-5
Ju88A-4
Panzer IV H
Hurricane MkIIc
Hurricane MkIId
Mosquito FB.MkVI
Seafire MkIIc
Spitfire MkVb
Spitfire F.MkIX
La-5FN
La-7
Il-2M
Yak-9T
C.202
C.205
If we go about perking stuff based on whether there is an earlier version, where do we draw the line? The Spitfire IX is a 1942 fighter with a 1941 version in AH as well. Does it get perked? What if the MkXIV is added? Does the MkIX get unperked at that point? What if the MkI is added? Does the MkV now get perked?
If we leave single versions unperked that would mean the N1K2-J would not be perked due to the lack of the N1K1-J in AH.
Things could be perked on a case by case basis, but imagine the constant whines and justifications to get this plane perked or that plane unperked.
I happen to like the list of pre-1944 aircraft I provided except for two things, it has the La-7 in it and it lacks all Japanese aircraft.
Basically I don't think that such things are viable business moves for HTC, too many people really like the late war stuff.
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like I said, those who do not have an earlier variant would be judged according to their performance vs the unperked planeset. SpitIX is a mid war plane, it would not be perked since its not a late war. Spit15 oth, would be. I dont expect the n1k to "suck" next version, it was a good performing fighter. I do expect it to have its performance adhere to physics for once. Its bound to be a fast accel'ing spit with 4 cannons imo.
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Karnak said:
Things could be perked on a case by case basis, but imagine the constant whines and justifications to get this plane perked or that plane unperked.
As it is, we already perk things case-by-case. It has already caused whining. It hasn't killed us yet so I figure we could stand to continue this system.
I also think this is the only way to decide on what gets perked IF the object of perking is to force greater variety in what gets flown day-to-day in the arena. If the reason for lack of variety is a few "crescent wrench" planes in unlimited availability, then the best approach is to identify and perk them.
This is regardless of when these "crescent wrenches" appeared in time or where they fall in the development history of a given plane. If it's a question of game balance, then the perk system should concentrate on improving game balance for its own sake and not worry about ethnicity, dates, and sub-type designations.
I happen to like the list of pre-1944 aircraft I provided except for two things, it has the La-7 in it and it lacks all Japanese aircraft.
I thought the A6M5 appeared in mid-43. But yeah, this would make the La7 even more the ride of choice than it is now. Which is a reason for doing things case-by-case.
Basically I don't think that such things (perking all '44+ planes) are viable business moves for HTC, too many people really like the late war stuff.
No denying, late-war stuff draws crowds. But how much of that is actual preference and how much is a perceived need for a crutch to be competitive? I think most of it is the latter because more than half of all pilots have less than half of their possible total of individual skill. Look at the numbers. The more uber a plane is perceived to be, the more it gets flown. And it gets flown in such huge numbers that the dweeb masses have to make up a significant portion of its pilots.
So I think the only way around this is to remove existing crutches and severely limit the introduction of new ones. If a stallfighter is as fast or faster than most E-fighters, perk the Hell out of it. If an E-fighter can turn with the best stallfighters over a tactically significant speed range, perk the Hell out of it. If an E-fighter is just overly fast compared to the others, perk it a little bit. If a stallfighter is a bit faster than normal but still slower than most E-fighters, perk it a little bit.
Unfortunately, this sort of system would probably only work for a mix of mid-war and late-war planes like we have now. I don't see how you could fit in early-war planes very well because they'd always be facing at least some late-war jobs. So the only ways I see to get early-war planes in the air (assuming HTC ever makes them) are either to put them in separate arenas or have a rotating plane set.
I don't think separate arenas would work well. In AW, when they stopped alternating PTO and ETO TDs and put each in simultaneous arenas, nobody flew in the PTO until the ETO overflowed. And I don't see many folks in the CT arena here. So an Early War arena would probably also flop.
But I haven't yet seen an RPS that worked well. AW never had one and nobody seemed happy with WB's version, that greatly compressed the 1st 4 years of the war and then stretch 1945 out forever. Those who wanted to get some real time in early birds got only a token chance before they became outclassed. Those who couldn't live without their crutch planes didn't fly "uber week". Those who couldn't stand to see an arena dominated by crutch planes took "uber week" off. And many of the latter also sat out the first few days until the earliest version of their favorite ride became available. So it seemed like very few people flew all the way through the RPS and everybody squeaked about it.
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Bullethead ]
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What set of wrenches crap ? Tell that to Ki84 fans.
Who is gonna decide which wrench can do what ? In the end we would have to be flying just one plane. Even if we would end with Spit V and Spit IX only, I am sure there would be "IX dweeb" calling etc.
If a plane gets overused (whatever that is), get used to meet it more. Fly your preferred ride and match it. If you think you can't do it, lobby for perking it.
The nations in WWII all tried to build the best planes possible. Ki84 and Spit XIV are some of the results. As well as D-9, P51 or Tempest. Why do you have problem with that ?
IMO, Tempest and La7 would own both Ki84 and Spit XIV.
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
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Originally posted by Hristo:
What set of wrenches crap ? Tell that to Ki84 fans.
Who is gonna decide which wrench can do what ? In the end we would have to be flying just one plane. Even if we would end with Spit V and Spit IX only, I am sure there would be "IX dweeb" calling etc.
If a plane gets overused (whatever that is), get used to meet it more. Fly your preferred ride and match it. If you think you can't do it, lobby for perking it.
The nations in WWII all tried to build the best planes possible. Ki84 and Spit XIV are some of the results. As well as D-9, P51 or Tempest. Why do you have problem with that ?
IMO, Tempest and La7 would own both Ki84 and Spit XIV.
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
Hristo, what plane do you fly? I'm just curious. Can't find your name in the "score pages", or I'd look it up myself.
Undoubtedly you are correct that the "tempest and the La7 will own the Ki-84 and SpitXIV". Actually, I don't have a friggin clue who would own what, but that is niether here nor there. So an La7 will "own" a Ki-84 one on one. Thats nice. How will it "own" it? Will it outrun it or outturn it? I'm guessing it will outrun it. How well will the La7 do against 2 or 3 Ki-84s that jumped into a 1 on 1, or 1 on 2 knifefight on the deck? Probably pretty poorly, just the like the 109 and 190 do poorly against a spit or n1k in that situation. Well, WHY, you may ask, does the 109 and 190 perform poorly in those situations? Well, it is pretty easy. The 109 and 190 are inferior to those planes in just about every department except for the "run like hell" department. And when you get low and slow, you lack the means to run like hell, so you are pretty much toast.
So your La7 can fly around, cruising for people to bounce, but as soon as he gets into a REAL fight, the Ki-84 that he "owns" is going to come down and hand him his ass.
As an aside, take a look at the "Tour 19 fighter stats" that Dejavu posted. I found it interesting that the 5 most numerous planes in the Main arena had more kills than every other plane in the set combined. I guess that is niether here nor there, since you psychologists already KNOW the real reasons I want to see some planes perked.
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Urchin,
Points that the Fw190D-9 is better than the Spitfire MkIX at:
Acceleration
Climb rate
Roll rate
Diving
Speed
Ammo endurance
WEP endurance
Fuel endurance
Zoom climbing
Visibility
Points that the Spitfire MkIX is better than the Fw190D-9 at:
Turn rate
Turn radius
E retantion while turning
Bullet trajectory
It seems to me that you are functionally saying that the only thing that matters in a fighter is its turning performance. If that is the case, why do you fly German aircraft? Fly British and Japanese aircraft. They are the ones that emphasize turning. Don't demand that aircraft that turn be removed so that you can fly German aircraft and not worry about turners.
Every post you've been making is ignoring the strengths of the German aircraft. They aren't the same strengths so please don't complain when they have to be flown differently to be successful.
There will always be aircraft that are more popular than others. Period. Most people like to turn fight, therefore the most popular aircraft will be turn fighters. If turn fighters are removed from the game the game will die.
To me a fast fighter is far more of a threat and far more likely to be a game ruiner than a slow turn fighter. I can avoid/ignore the slow turn fighter, but the fast fighter forces me to deal with it. Fast fighter are not rendered useless by turn fighters but many aircraft would be rendered useless by fast fighters.
Urchin, what do you want the MA to look like?
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No Karnak, I'm not saying that the only thing that matters is turn performance. In a fight, here is what I see as "mattering"
- Acceleration
- Turn rate
- Roll rate
- Visibilty
- Firepower
The SpitIX will accelerate as fast, or faster, than the D9, at speeds under 300mph. It also turns better at those speeds, and in my opinion has better firepower than the Dora. Can the SpitIX kill a Dora 1v1? No, absolutely not, unless the Dora pilot is dumber than a brick. Can a spit pilot dive into someone elses fight and kill a Dora? Absolutely. Can a Niki? Absolutely. Can a Ki-84 or a Spit 14 or 21? Bet your ass. Can they do it better than the SpitIX or the Niki? Uh HUH.
It seems to me that you are functionally saying that the only thing that matters in a fighter is its turning performance. If that is the case, why do you fly German aircraft? Fly British and Japanese aircraft. They are the ones that emphasize turning. Don't demand that aircraft that turn be removed so that you can fly German aircraft and not worry about turners.
It seems to me that you are functionally saying the only thing that matters in an aircraft is level speed. If that is the case, why are you flying Japanese or British aircraft? Fly German, Russian, or American aircraft, since those emphasize speed over turning. Don't demand that faster "turning" aircraft be added so you can fly them and not worry about the German, Russian, or American aircraft.
Fast fighter are not rendered useless by turn fighters but many aircraft would be rendered useless by fast fighters.
No, but fast aircraft ARE rendered useless by fast aircraft that turn better. Someone said that the Ki-84 is faster than the P51D below 10k. Since you aren't stupid, I won't remind you that 99% of fights in the MA occur under 10k. Whoops. Anyway, that would make the Ki-84 the 3rd fastest "non-perk" plane on the deck, and 4th overall.
So as I see it, what you and the others are saying is "Gee, my La7 sure is fast, but there are some planes that can outturn me, and the fuel and ammo load on this plane are pretty small." or "Gee, this Niki sure does turn nice, and it has a lot of firepower, but there are so many planes out there that can just run away from me". What both of those trains of thought have in common is the ending.. i.e. the Ki-84.
And no, to be honest I don't even care if the ki-84 is put in the game. I hope they put it in the game, with the 2x20mm and 2x30mm cannon option that people want, and I hope they don't perk it, ever. Then they can just start removing the planes that see no use, and replace them with different paint jobs for the Ki-84. That way you will still be able to get some recognition, despite the fact that you are flying the exact same plane as 75% of the other people in the MA.
Oh, and by the way, I agree with you that if the "turn-fighters" are removed, the game will die. It may take a while, but it would happen eventually. But I will ask you to kindly point out where I "DEMANDED" that the Spit and N1K be removed from the game. Can you do that for me? I forgot which thread I said it in. You "turn-fighters" obviously are fairly content with the planes that are available, seeing as how the top two fighters are turnfighters, with something around 30% of the total kills. Why add more turnfighters that can run down the "energy fighters"?
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Originally posted by Urchin:
Hristo, what plane do you fly? I'm just curious. Can't find your name in the "score pages", or I'd look it up myself.
Hmm, you must be new to this game. I used to fly from 1st day beta.
Look from beta tour 1 to tour 5 (handles : Hristo, Hristos, Stoickov, enemy).
Then tour 17, under Hristo2W.
My personal best was in tour 4, 190 vs 28 in Fw190A-8, as Hristos.
Planes I fly. You dare to ask me that ? Luftwaffe all the way. 9./JG54 anyone ?
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
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Oh, and to answer your "question", I fly the 109 and 190 because I can hand the other guy his bellybutton more than he hands me mine in them. A P51, P47, or F4U is going to end up dead if he fights me prolly about 75-80% of the time. A P38, F6F, La7, or yak is going to be dead probably 60% of the time, even if he bounces me. Even the Spits, I'll usually take 75-80% of the fights from. N1K2, really depends on the circumstances, but I'd say prolly 40-50% of the time I'll win.
Why do I fly the "German planes"? I fly them for a few reasons. I fly them because they are comparitively rare in the MA. That gives me an advantage, because not everyone knows what they are capable of. It also makes (at least a few people) wonder- Hum.. this guy is pretty good, wonder who he is? Which gets me recognition, which I enjoy. I fly them because that is what I started with when I started flying Aces High. I still feel the most comfortable in a fight when I'm sitting in a 109 or 190, despite the fact I could probably hop in an La7 or N1K and double my K/D ratio. I fly them because I've heard of them, because they enjoy reputations as some of the greatest warbirds of all time.
And as far as what I'd like the MA to look like, it doesn't matter to be honest. People are basically herd animals, so the MA I'd enjoy flying in will never come to pass. I know what disgusts me, however, and that is the fact that the N1K, SpitIX, P51D,La7, and F4U-1D had more "fighter to fighter" kills than the other 27 planes in the set put together. I'm not going to bother trying to figure out what their total percentage was, because that doesn't matter either. I know that if, or when, the Ki-84 and the Spit XIV or F21 come into the game, I'll be disgusted by the fact that the top 2 airplanes had more kills than the rest of the planeset combined.
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Hmm, you must be new to this game. I used to fly from 1st day beta.
Look from beta tour 1 to tour 5 (handles : Hristo, Hristos, Stoickov, enemy).
Then tour 17, under Hristo2W.
My personal best was in tour 4, 190 vs 28 in Fw190A-8, as Hristos.
Planes I fly. You dare to ask me that ? Luftwaffe all the way. 9./JG54 anyone ?
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
No offense intended, as I said when I asked you. I was just curious, given your attitude towards adding the Ki-84. 190 to 28 is an enviable record in the A8, I <S> you for that.
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Urchin,
1) Anything can dive into anything's fight and steal the kill. Yes, N1K2s and Spits are better at it, but I have seen all kinds of fighters do it.
2) The Fw190D-9 easily out accelerates the SpitIX across the speed spectrum. The Spit is not a particularly good accelerator.
3) I fly all aircraft, not just British or Japanese. In my opinion all aspects matter to some degree or other. For the ease of a kill I think that turning and guns are the important features of a fighter. For survival, controling the fight, and in the end best feature, is speed. I think that the Fw190D-9 is one of the best fighters in AH and would take it over a Spit IX or N1K2 if my life depended on it.
4) The Ki84 will do 348mph at sea level according to Mitsu's numbers. The P-51D will do 367mph at sea level. The Ki84-Ia will max out at 392mph at 20,000ft. The P-51D maxes out at 437mph.
5) Is the Ki84 a perk plane? Maybe, I don't know. Is the Spitfire MkXIV a perk plane? I certainly think so.
Remember, the Ki84-Ia is armed with 2 12.7mm Ho-103 machine guns with 350 rounds per gun and 2 20mm Ho-5 cannon with 150 rounds per gun. That is far lighter than the N1K2-J crowd is used to in both firepower and ammo endurance.
The only way to get people out of turn fighters is to remove them. I extrapolated that you would enjoy an arena with no turn fighters more than an arena with turn fighters from your continued comments against them. I apologize. It wasa rude and argumentative thing to insinuate.
FWIW, in Tour 20 I have the following record:
2 kills and 2 deaths in the A6M5b
1 kill and 0 deaths in the Bf109G-10
6 kills and 1 deaths in the Fw190D-9
7 kills and 3 deaths in the Typhoon MkIb
When the Mosquito is available I will spend a lot of my time in it. Please don't lump me in with the "turn fighters" or any other specific style. Thanks.
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Well now it is starting to sound like the anti-Ki.84/Spit XIV people want them excluded from the game because they may/will out-perform their favorite or usual ride.
Certainly you guys must see the illogic in arguing to exclude from a game that is fundamentally about WWII air-to-air combat, the two finest fighters produced by Japan and Great Britain in WWII because they are too good? How bad a business decision for HTC can that be?
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Hristo is just pissed because everybody didn't like his beloved Il-2 and now he is trolling and acting like a 8 year old.
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Originally posted by oboe:
Well now it is starting to sound like the anti-Ki.84/Spit XIV people want them excluded from the game because they may/will out-perform their favorite or usual ride.
Certainly you guys must see the illogic in arguing to exclude from a game that is fundamentally about WWII air-to-air combat, the two finest fighters produced by Japan and Great Britain in WWII because they are too good? How bad a business decision for HTC can that be?
You are correct of course. Of course, the other edge to your sword is that the Me262 is the finest [/b] fighter produced by Germany in the war, so lets have that unperked as well.
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Hehe...Urchin! I never said whether they should be perked or not- I just would like to see them available in the game. If they unbalance the MA, then by all means they should be perked.
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Then we are in agreement. I could care less if they are in the game, but it is my belief (and purely my belief ) that they WILL unbalance the arena. Of course, the idea of balance is purely subjective- it might be perfectly ok for 3 planes to have 90% of the kills, while 30 planes have the other 10%, at least to some people. I don't mind if they are in the game, but they will need to be perked if you want to see many other planes in the game.
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Oh, just found out. 212 vs 16 in Tour 2 in A-8 :). That's my personal best.
Jochen, Il-2 has a lot to show to AH. A lot indeed !
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Just one point. The La7 was a late 1944, mostly 1945 aircraft.
It was the La5Fn and La5 that were the midwar varients.
Personally I have nothing against adding the Ki84 and Spit XIV, but I do say be prepared for an eventual perking of the XIV.
The Ki84 would be the fastest Japanese plane to date, and would be an excellent E fighter, but would still be VERY slow by arena standards. Great plane, but with a defineable weakness.
The Spit XIV on the other hand (without an intentionally crippled FM) would become a de facto plane of choice overnight. Its that good. Turns well, is fast, climbs well, great guns. I know I wouldn't fly anything else, and I personally despise Spitfires (no offense to Spit types, just not my thing).
It would make the Chog infestation look like a minor annoyance by comparison.
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Spit XIV isn't that fast either. And it is not such a good diver. It is also fragile plane. P51, G-10, D-9, La 7, Typhoon and Tempest can all outrun/outdive it at lower alts. Not sure about Yak 9U though.
Not to mention Arado and 262 can outpace it too.
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oboe said:
Well now it is starting to sound like the anti-Ki.84/Spit XIV people want them excluded from the game because they may/will out-perform their favorite or usual ride.
You're missing the point. The point is that there SHOULD NOT BE A "TOP PLANE" in the arena. The problem we have today is that we have freely available crutch planes that do too many things too well, at least in the environment of the MA. In the real war, things might have been different but this isn't the real war, it's a game and games require balance to be fun and interesting over the long haul.
So yeah, the crutch planes we already have and the new ones other people want to add DO out-perform my favorite rides, at least in ways important in the MA. But they also out-perform EVERYBODY's favorite ride, unless you happen to be a dweeb and are in love with a crutch plane BECAUSE it's a crutch. Given their dominance, I cannot believe more than a handful of people care what particular type of plane their crutch is, just as long as it does its job as a crutch.
People are always saying AH needs more new planes. But when they offer specifics, it's always "we need uberplane X to give country Y a plane to counter existing uberplane Z." Like now with the Frank. Seems to me like the people who want things like spit14s and Franks do so because they really just want a crutch for their other arm now. My guess at their thought process is as follows:
Damn, I'm sick of N1s and La7s, but I'm such a dweeb that I need something similar to compete. Something better if possible. Hmmm, I know, I'll find some plane at least as uber as the best we already have, that might even be superior in the context of the MA. Then I'll pretend like it's my most favoritest plane in the whole wide world, that my wittle heart will break if I don't get it, and I'll whine and hold my breath until HTC gives it to me (unperked of course) and then I'll kick bellybutton all over those damn N1 and La7 dweebs. And if anybody complains that now my "most favoritest plane" is dominating the arena, I'll tell them they're just jealouse because their favorite plane isn't as good. Or that they're racists and don't want good planes from non-US countries to kick ass, or that they're being mean to me, or otherwise wrap myself in a flag sewn of politically correct BS that none dare gainsay. What do I care if no other planes fly? I have my own wittle crutch now, I'm happy.
This is such a great attitude :rolleyes:. Keep this up and pretty soon AH will be all Korean War planes, with the F-104 perked :mad:.
Certainly you guys must see the illogic in arguing to exclude from a game that is fundamentally about WWII air-to-air combat, the two finest fighters produced by Japan and Great Britain in WWII because they are too good? How bad a business decision for HTC can that be?
Certainly you must see the illogic in demanding planes whose presence in the game will even further imbalance an already skewed plane set.
You want to talk business decisions? How about considering the huge investment HTC has already put into all the dozens of perfectly good planes in the game that, because they're not "uber" in MA terms, never get flown? Planes that attracted many of their customers in the first place. Remember, it's the existing planes that people come to fly, not those that might or might not appear in the future.
Well, as it stands now, HTC's investment in those planes is money down the rat hole, and the hopes of all the customers who want to see them flying are unfulfilled. So customers are unhappy, except the dweebs whose only concern is having the biggest airial Johnson to make up for their own inadequacies.
So what's a good decision for HTC in this context? Introduce more uberplanes to counter the existing uberplanes? I don't think so. That's just writing off the investment in all the other planes not flown now and further alienating those who want to fly or fight against something other than the crutch du jour. Besides, this method requires a further investment in the new crutches.
Or HTC can take away the existing crutches and severely restrict the availability of any new crutches introduced. Guess what? Suddenly AH's effective plane will at least effectively double, if not quadruple, as more planes come into common use. Now all that investment in existing planes is paying off. Now the customers who came to fly and fight them are happy. And it requires no further expense--just flip a switch on the host.
This isn't ABOUT WW2. This isn't even a sim of WW2. It's an air-combat GAME that only bears a resemblance to WW2 because the planes are from WW2--how they are used here is in no way historical. As such, arguments based on WW2 historical context should have no bearing at all on the business decisions of HTC, except for things necessary to get scenarios to work.
AH is a game. HTC has the highest possible interest in keeping this game fresh, interesting, and fun, because that's what keeps its customers paying. If the unlimited availability of an existing plane threatens these goals, or if adding a new plane would do so, then HTC should get rid of the existing plane and perhaps not even add the new plane.
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Again, we have perk system. If La-7, Tempest and 262 are here, I don't see why we would not have XIV and Ki84 too.
I'd like to see a varying ENY/perk point system. All planes are perked, some more than others. And only because of their arena usage.
This means, you can fly a Tempest if it is rarely flown. The more people jump in Tempest, it perk price goes up. It should all be handled by the system itself.
This would be best plane equalizer, IMO.
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an la7 isnt much different from a spit xiv. slightly faster, slightly less turn. 3 b20s vs 2 20mm and 2 50s. same duration of fire.
pretty damned comparable.
the la7 is the best plane in the game, hands down. ppl whine about n1k and spitfire, but they are easy to beat. just run. la7, well good luck :) (at arena combat altitudes anyway -- itd be ineresting to see how itd perform in a scenario environment)
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Originally posted by Bullethead:
The point is that there SHOULD NOT BE A "TOP PLANE" in the arena.
There will always be a top plane in the arena. You can't stop it. Even if all flight models, damage models, ammo loads, armaments and ordinances were made identical people would still flock to some aircraft more than others.
Those of you who don't like it are simply going to have to accept that you can't control how other people fly. Its their $14.95.
You are also making a huge assumption about the Ki84. We don't know how it would pan out in performance. If it proved to be more arena dominating than the N1K2 I'm sure it would get perked. Another thing, don't simply think that the N1K2 and Spit IX would keep their numbers and the Ki84 would get another 16 percent of the population who currently fly other things. Most of the Ki84's numbers would come from the Spit IX and N1K2's numbers.
As far as the Spitfire MkXIV, that's a perk plane so don't worry about it swarming the arena. It'll cost from the Ta152H-1's price to the Tempest MkV's price.
[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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TAC, I beleive Pyro said "they will look into the FM for the N1k2, and change if needed" Not that it was porked and it will be changed, So the FM may or may not be porked, Not that is definately porked and being changed. BIG difference IMO.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Tac:
Dont misjudge me, I consider any n1k driver to be the scum of the earth. Flying a plane with a known FM defect that gives it an unholy advantage is almost like exploiting a bug. The problem is with the plane yes (its getting fixed next version hopefully), but its the players that abuse it that imo are the biggest problem.
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Tac ]
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Originally posted by Bullethead:
AH is a game. HTC has the highest possible interest in keeping this game fresh, interesting, and fun, because that's what keeps its customers paying.
I agree completely. But its the regular introduction of new planes to the mix that plays a major role in keeping the game fresh and interesting. Even the most balanced and competitive planeset would get stale in time. You have to keep adding aircraft to keep players interested. And sooner or later, you're gonna have to add the Ki.84 and Spit XIV (sooner rather than later if the primary focus of your sim is on late war years). When I speak of adding a plane to AH, I'm talking about everything- Scenarios, the Combat Theater and the Main Arena. It sounds like you are focusing your objections exclusively on its effect on the MA. I agree the MA is out of balance right now, as Deja's tour stats show. But HTC has the perk system in place that can correct this situation. They just need the will to do it.
For me, and for alot of others I hope, this sim IS about WWII air combat. If all the planes here were replaced with the metal monsters of Crimson Skies, I honestly wouldn't have even bothered with the initial download.
:)
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Sorry Ziggy but I gotta seriously disagree.
The La7 will in no way, shape or form, turn like a Spit XIV. Contrary to the populist babble, the La7 is a poor sustained turning aircraft, with 360 turn times in the same range as a P51D (last time I checked it). The Spit XIV should according to the test documentation I have seen, be in the same general sustained turning ability range as the Spit IX.
And a poor diver? Since when has the Spit IX been bad at diving in AH, and the XIV should have the same or better abilities.
The Spit also is quite effective up to high altitudes, while the La7 runs out of Oomph as the fastest deck aircraft at around 5k and is totally dominated by 10k. The only place the Spit is slower is way down low.
And your comparing a B20 20mm cannon to a hispano 20mm? I will take the 2 hispanos and 2 .50's over the 3 B20's any day of the week. *shrugs* just a personal preference though.
Don't get me wrong guys, the La7 is a quite effective aircraft, but its far from as good as many on this board would lead us to believe.
The Spit XIV however is lightyears ahead of the La7 in capabilities.
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Urchin, Most of my flight time is limited to short sorties,I find myself logging in and upping an enemy capped field. The N1k2 is ideal for my flight personality. On the occasion I have alot of time to play I hop in my Jug and go hunting. If we go by K/D's my Jug rides are MUCH better than my N1k2 flights 3 and 0 against the N1k2 :)
Also was stated 75% of the N1k2 players will jump into the KI as their "crutch" well that leaves 25% of the N1K2 pilots that don't fly it as a crutch to make up for their lack of ACM. Problem as i stated before the KI-84 and the A-26 are my 2 favorite rides. N1k2 FM is close to the KI therefor i fly it. On the other hand the B-26 is far apart in FM from the vader.
Will i jump in the KI once it's here YOU BETCHA!
Not as a crutch, but as a love of the ride, just as the pony drivers and f4U people love their rides. But we get called dweebs, so be it. If the FM were perfect, we will still be called dweebs, but it is really getting old...
If its a gameplay issue and the MA needs to be balanced, Perk it, wouldn't bother me I'll have enough kills and perkies to fly it forever. I never screamed perk any plane but the F4U was perked, maybe because MA balance maybe because less than 200 were produced. The Ki on the other hand where 3500 plus were produced can hardly be overlooked. If Japan had materials AND pilots at the introduction of the KI things would of been very different.
NUTTZ
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NUTTZ,
Good point.
It is offensive that we who like Spits and N1K2s (and Ki84s) constantly get accused of only liking them because of the advantage they give us. Our accusers have very low opinions of us and very high opinions of themselves.
Why is it assumed that people can only really like German aircraft for the sake of the aircraft?
I have been a Spitfire fan for more than a decade. I happen to think that the Spitfire F.MkXIV is the most beautiful WWII aircraft by far. But no, I have to be looking for a crutch to like it.
You guys also don't like talking about the advantages that German aircraft bring to the table. Why not? Do you need to keep the focus on the "other" guy's kite?
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Yes "They" do. I'm not a "Great Ace" as are some in here. I'll fly the Spit IXV as much as I can. I also feel like some of the others in the respect that I fly what I like. Not because I feel I have an advantage but because I like the plane. It suits my way of flying. I get killed by everything in the game. But I kill everything as well.
Since coming back to this game I have picked up on a couple things (not that they mean anything to you all). I don't try to fight a fight that I am at a disadvatage in from the start. I used to try anything and everything to get to them. Not anymore. Sure , I'll dive into a furball knowing that I'll probably not get out of it with my butt , but it's always to help a teammate out. Not because I think I can kill all 5 or 6 that are down there but instead to maybe to help him get away. I have learned not to fight certain types of planes without at least the same alt. I have also learned that Ho'ing a Nik or any other big gunned plane will most of the time leave me missing valuable parts.
Spits are not the problem nor the Nik's. (I for one don't like Nik's and use to fly them all the time). Not because they are "The Dweeb Ride" , but because I think they may be a little overmodled. I don't know the roll rate of a 109G10 in 19XX. I could care less. Anyone that can prove to me that roll rates and Speeds at certain alts are so definatly attainable in here I welcome.
This is a game of Airplanes. The A6M gives me in my spit fits. Why? Cuz I'm a sucker for the turn fight. I don't think any plane in the game can match it turning wise. So I say Perk it cuz it does something better than my Spit. (J/K)
If your LW plane dies to a spit then you are to blame. If my Spit dies to a Nik then its my fault. If I die to a LW plane then it's my fault.
The Spit and KI in question were some of the greatest planes ever made. No reason not to have them and to let people enjoy them. All this perk this and perk that crap is just useless. If you want an areana full of LW planes to fight then have HTC make an LW Room. Same goes for the U.S. stuff. But because your LW or U.S. plane cant hold up to a Spit IXV is a weak argument.
It truly is the Pilot and not the plane. If it was the plane then "Dweebs" as you call us would rule with our half bellybutton talent and superior plane.
Just my opinion and not directed to know one. ;)
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Originally posted by Karnak:
NUTTZ,
Good point.
It is offensive that we who like Spits and N1K2s (and Ki84s) constantly get accused of only liking them because of the advantage they give us. Our accusers have very low opinions of us and very high opinions of themselves.
Why is it assumed that people can only really like German aircraft for the sake of the aircraft?
I have been a Spitfire fan for more than a decade. I happen to think that the Spitfire F.MkXIV is the most beautiful WWII aircraft by far. But no, I have to be looking for a crutch to like it.
You guys also don't like talking about the advantages that German aircraft bring to the table. Why not? Do you need to keep the focus on the "other" guy's kite?
Give it a rest Karnak. I have NEVER said that EVERYONE flies the Spit or N1K because it gives them an advantage. I HAVE said that probably 95% of the pilots that fly those planes (or in the case of the Spitfire XIV or F. 21 WOULD fly the plane) fly it because it gives them an advantage (or a "crutch", however you want to put it), because it is true.
Furthermore, you KNOW it is true. Why else would you say that if the Spitfire XIV was introduced it would have to be a perk plane? Would the legions of N1K pilots suddenly re-discover their love for the great old British warbird? Nooooooppppeee, I don't THINK that is the reason that it would become the most popular plane in the arena overnight.
As far as having generally low opinions of others, yea, thats actually the truth. Generally, human beings are ignorant, selfish, stupid slobs - this includes all aspects of society. People want to take the easiest path they can possibly find, and it is not different in video games than in real life.
I'm sorry you feel offended by the belief that most people who fly the N1K (or want the Ki-84 or Spit XIV or F 21) want it for a crutch and not because they actually "love" the plane, but by and large I'd say it is the truth. The difference is that their advocates are smart enough to attempt to gloss over their real motivation for wanting the plane.
If the most popular planes in Aces High were "famous" planes, by Western standards anyway, I'd believe your argument. But that isn't the case. Three of the top 6 are fairly well known. The P-51D, yes, that plane has an outstanding reputation in the U.S, I think probably even the most ignorant Americans would know the Mustang hasn't always been a sports car made by Ford. The Spitfire, again- a very well known plane in the U.S. and I presume Europe. The F4U-1D, slightly less well known among the general populace but still very well known amoung history buffs and such. The problem with this theory lies with the other 3 planes. The N1K2? What the hell is that? Oh.. it was called the George.. yea, I may have read about it in a couple of WW2 books I read as a child. Most used plane in the arena. Since the VAST majority of Aces High customers are of the European or North American bent, I HIGHLY doubt they were huge fans of the plane and were drawn to Aces High because THIS plane was in it. The LA-7? Its a SOVIET plane? The Soviets had an air force in WW2? Never read about any of that in ANY of the books I read as a child. I'm sure we have some Russian and Eastern European players that may have heard of the plane, but again, I doubt that many customers were lured to the game just because the LA-7 was in it. I also doubt that many players fly the N1K or the La7 because it is their "favorite" WW2 airplane of ALL TIME! And lastly, the F4U-1C? Whats this? The Corsair had CANNONS? That fact was never mentioned in ANY of the books I read as a child. I really honestly doubt that many Corsair fans just HAD TO HAVE the F4U-1C because all the other ones "sucked". Especially with such an insignificant production run compared with the other varients.
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Also was stated 75% of the N1k2 players will jump into the KI as their "crutch" well that leaves 25% of the N1K2 pilots that don't fly it as a crutch to make up for their lack of ACM. Problem as i stated before the KI-84 and the A-26 are my 2 favorite rides. N1k2 FM is close to the KI therefor i fly it. On the other hand the B-26 is far apart in FM from the vader.
No Nuttz, that would leave 24.99% of N1K2 pilots that would still fly the N1K2 because it turns better than the Ki-84 and had more ammo. The other two guys would keep flying it because it really WAS their favorite WW2 airplane.
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Urchin,
Not everything I post is trageted at you personally. My comments were directed collectively at those who constantly harp about the Spitfire and N1K2.
If you don't like the, propose a solution that is fair and equitable to fans of both styles. Telling them to learn how to fly a "real" fighter is just plain insulting.
You keep ignoring my stance on the Spitfire MkXIV as well. I personally don't want it in AH, but I think that it is relatively inevitable. I hop that it is perked when it arrives.
A whole lot of you are acting like Chicken Little in regards to the Ki84. We don't know how well it will perform. In WB it was one of the best 10 fighters, IIRC. If its too good it'll be perked just like the F4U-1C was.
I'm just tired of being whined at by a vocal chunk of the community because I don't constantly romance about Fw190s and Bf109s.
EDIT,
Why is it only valid to fly our favorite WWII aircraft? Should I only fly Spitfire MkXIVs when they get added?
Maybe some people learned of the N1K2's existance through AH and took a fancy to it. Maybe some people liked it before, but it wasn't their favorite.
I agree that most people fly it for the edge it gives, but so what. Why can't they do that?
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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I have NEVER said that EVERYONE flies the Spit or N1K because it gives them an advantage. I HAVE said that probably 95% of the pilots that fly those planes (or in the case of the Spitfire XIV or F. 21 WOULD fly the plane) fly it because it gives them an advantage (or a "crutch", however you want to put it), because it is true.
Furthermore, you KNOW it is true. Why else would you say that if the Spitfire XIV was introduced it would have to be a perk plane? Would the legions of N1K pilots suddenly re-discover their love for the great old British warbird? Nooooooppppeee, I don't THINK that is the reason that it would become the most popular plane in the arena overnight.
I know your opinion on the Spit XIV. Actually, despite the fact that I told you to give it a rest right at the beginning, the entire thread was not directed at you, personally.
EDIT,
Why is it only valid to fly our favorite WWII aircraft? Should I only fly Spitfire MkXIVs when they get added?
Maybe some people learned of the N1K2's existance through AH and took a fancy to it. Maybe some people liked it before, but it wasn't their favorite.
I agree that most people fly it for the edge it gives, but so what. Why can't they do that?
Thid doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, personally. You say you are tired of people "whining" that people only fly the Spit and N1K for the "edge" it gives them (which I disagree with on the Spit, agree wholeheartedly for the N1K and La7)- but then YOU say that most people who fly those planes fly it for the "edge" it gives.
Behind every stereotype there is at least SOME truth. You can't acknowledge the fact that people fly the Spit or N1K for an edge, and then turn around and claim that people shouldn't assume individual pilots fly the SAME PLANE for an edge. Why? 99% of the time they'll be right in their assumption. Sure, in your case they may be wrong, but then you merely say "Actually, I've been a Spit fan for years, old boy", and suddenly the truth is out there. What, are you concerned that people don't believe you when you say you are a Spit fan?
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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"TAC, I beleive Pyro said "they will look into the FM for the N1k2, and change if needed" Not that it was porked and it will be changed, So the FM may or may not be porked, Not that is definately porked and being changed. BIG difference IMO"
Sunday HTC blue text talks revealed some changes were being made to the n1k, amongst other planes. I dont want the n1k to be porked, It was a good performing plane in RL. Whatever changes they making, be them the introduction of drag on their auto-flap system or correction in their lift or the addition of Torque effect on that plane, its bound to bring the plane closer to earthly physics.
The ki84 and SpitXIV would really mess up the MA balance in the same way the CHOG did back in those dark days. fast, great turners... why fly any other plane? Result: no variety, HTC wasted efforts modeling other lower performing planes. *sarcasm mode on* Im sure that when the P-40C is introduced, 90% of the MA population will hop on it.. I mean, its such a great ride! Why fly that dinky 1945 plane? *sarcasm mode off* get my point? Its happening right now, the incredible amount of late war planes in the MA just show this trend... and the la7 does require a minimal amount of skill to fly. Imagine what will happen when the population gets an la7 speedo-like + spit-like turning plane? MA will go to hell.
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Urchin, I cannot believe you can say you fly LW steel because it's your favorite plane, But N1K2 and la-7 Pilots only fly it because of it's advantage in the arena.
See, thats the point you can't see, You constantly attack the players and their beliefs, instead of attacking the plane.
And how can you say people in europe and the US never heard of the "george"?
Personally If HTC modeled the George's FM and it flew like a JUG I'd probably still fly it.
I couldn't give a rats bellybutton about spits or any LW iron. But to deny a plane with the production numbers on a major AXIS team is wrong, especially when IJN only has 3 planes as it is. Why should it be Denied? should HTC add more LW steel, and forget Japan all together?
Personally, I was ALWAYS fasinated with the pacific theater. Remember japan was still fighting the war long after Germany folded, to Limit IJN to 3 planes is just not balanced.
LW pilots are screaming about wanting to change Arnaments...
IJN pilots just want our planes!
I say... Bring on the Ki-84 it's long over due!
AND IJN light bombers.
NUTTZ
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No offence TAC, but what you are trying to say to me is....HTC screwed the pooch, and added too many late war planes,, so lets keep what we have and leave it alone?
I just can't understand why the KI-84 wouldn't be added? ESPECIALLY since the 262 is being added? How can a MAJOR plane mith MAJOR production numbers of the IJN be denied? Because it will disrupt game play? By acting the IJN was non-existant in WW2 is even worse.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Tac:
"TAC, I beleive Pyro said "they will look into the FM for the N1k2, and change if needed" Not that it was porked and it will be changed, So the FM may or may not be porked, Not that is definately porked and being changed. BIG difference IMO"
Sunday HTC blue text talks revealed some changes were being made to the n1k, amongst other planes. I dont want the n1k to be porked, It was a good performing plane in RL. Whatever changes they making, be them the introduction of drag on their auto-flap system or correction in their lift or the addition of Torque effect on that plane, its bound to bring the plane closer to earthly physics.
The ki84 and SpitXIV would really mess up the MA balance in the same way the CHOG did back in those dark days. fast, great turners... why fly any other plane? Result: no variety, HTC wasted efforts modeling other lower performing planes. *sarcasm mode on* Im sure that when the P-40C is introduced, 90% of the MA population will hop on it.. I mean, its such a great ride! Why fly that dinky 1945 plane? *sarcasm mode off* get my point? Its happening right now, the incredible amount of late war planes in the MA just show this trend... and the la7 does require a minimal amount of skill to fly. Imagine what will happen when the population gets an la7 speedo-like + spit-like turning plane? MA will go to hell.
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Tac,
I'd hardly call the Spitfire MkXIV and Ki84 "dinky 1945 planes".
The Spitfire MkXIV entered service on January 4th, 1944. You can't get much earlier ad still be in 1944.
The Ki84 entered service in April, 1944. While not as early as the Spit 14, it is still clearly a 1944 aircraft.
I completely agree with you that the Spitfire MkXIV is a perk plane. Its performance characteristics make it too deadly to have it any other way.
The Ki84 may or may not be a perk plane IMHO. It depends how it pans out in performance.
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NUTTZ,
Er, um, the Ki84 isn't an IJN aircraft.
IJN = Imperial Japanese Navy
IJN naming conventions are as follows:
A = Carrier borne fighter
6 = Sixth aircraft in that role to enter service
M = Manufacturer is Mitsubishi
5 = Fifth major variant of the aircraft in question
b = Third minor varient of the major variant in question
Another example:
B = Torpedo bomber
7 = Seventh aircraft in that role to enter service
A = Manufacturer is Aichi
2 = Second major variant of the aircraft in question
Here are some role codes, so far as I can tell:
A = Carrier borne fighter
B = Torpedo bomber
D = Dive bomber
G = Land based bomber
H = Recon flying boat
J = Interceptor (May include "Land based" in its definition)
M = Suicide rocket?
N = Land based fighter
P = Fast bomber or recon bomber?
Here are some manufacturer codes:
A = Aichi
K = Kawanishi
M = Mitsubishi
N = Nakajima
Y = Yokosuka
IJA = Imperial Japanese Army
The IJA, on the other hand, named aircraft strictly based on the order in which they entered service, or were ordered. I'm not quite sure which. There is also a subversion number added on.
Ki = All IJA aircraft are preceded by "Ki"
61 = Sixty-first aircraft in the IJA
II = Second major variant of the aircraft in question
b = Second or third minor variant of the major variant of the aircraft in question
So an IJA list could look like this:
Ki44-I
Ki45b
Ki46
Ki61-IIb
Ki67-Ia
Ki84-Ia
And there is no quick way to tell what the role of each aircraft was.
Ki44-I = Fighter
Ki45b = Heavy fighter
Ki46 = Recon
Ki61-IIb = Fighter
Ki67-Ia = Bomber
Ki84-Ia = Fighter
I hope that helps.
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Geee, all this hype about Spit XIV makes me really scared of meeting it in my A-8. Hmm, maybe I will climb to 20k and always have my ack nest in sight, just in case. If I want to fly that lovely brick of A-8, I will just have to be a little (or much) more careful. Flying smart beats any plane characteristic, IMO.
You people keep forgetting the perk system. How can anything unbalance the arena when perk system is here ?
Last year when C-Hog was unperked it was most common plane I met in the sky. And it was real trouble for the Fw 190A-8.
Now, in tour 17 I shot few F4Us down. I was delighted about the number of C-Hogs I shot. Checking my stats, I was disapointed, none of them was C model, all were Ds. Go figure ;).
The perk system works. Even a very cheap 8 point perk cured the C-Hog menace. What makes you think perks won't work in case of XIV or 84, or any other plane that gets overused ?
Dynamic perk system is the answer to this, and the best equalizer. IMO, of course.
The best justification for Spit XIV and Ki 84 are latest planes included. La-7, D-9 and 262. If any of planes turns out too dominant - we get perk system to work. Simple, isn't it ?
P.S.
Oh, just remembered. The Me 262 is here. Spit XIV ? Tempest ? What are they, some kind of planes ?
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
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I'd say:
bring the ki-84 and spit.XIV to AH!!
We need this sim to evolve, I need more planes to fly and enjoy!
And if MA (and in your heads seem MA is the only arena here) get unbalanced, we have the perk system.
At the beginning, in the old days, I was against the perk system but now, I've changed my mind, it works!, and the hogC is there (in hangars) to prove that.
Sure, in last tours the huge numbers of niki, and in less degree, la7 and spits, is little anoyng and boring, but numbers are'nt still enough to ask for perking them.
As I recall, the perk system was introduced as substitution of the RPS (and is better, IMHO), with the only reason to limitate the overusage of the uberplanez that will rulez the MA :p
As for business decisions, we have here people loving specifical planes or countrys, people willing to rulez the arena (called usually quakeheads :p ), and people liking the simulation of WWII warbirds fights.
ALL of them pay for AH, and have the same right to use it as they want, the tough work for HTC staff is to balance the issues between all the customers, and IMHO they are doing a good work (great idea the CT).
[troll and flam mode on]
Urchin, you are a luftwhiner
Nuttz, you are a niki-dweeb
Hristo, come back, you traitor
:D
[troll and flame mode off]
;)