General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: WaffenVW on February 03, 2016, 10:05:57 AM
Title: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: WaffenVW on February 03, 2016, 10:05:57 AM
Myth busted!
AR for teh win! :aok
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 03, 2016, 11:31:40 AM
Interesting...
I don't have a dog in this fight, having examples of both in my collection.
There is a big takeaway and an implicit corollary deduction you might be tempted to make
The Big Takeaway: tighter tolerance between bolt and carrier and receiver (or dust shield for those rifles that use such a thing like the FN) are actually better for reliability, since they keep the crap OUT. The implicit corollary: internally low tolerances tend to be less reliable, especially in a dirtier internal environment.
I say that last because the AR got a rep, in large part because the early Colt models exhibited poor field reliability in service, but also because of the direct impingement system. I note that I have an FN-FAL that has been "accurized" (LaFrance) and it's fussier on ammunition, according to LaFrance "due to the tighter headspacing", so I'm sticking with this corollary.
As for my AR, which is actually a nice Bushie, I've never had so much as a hiccup, but then, it is babied.
As for your subject line, I'm assuming people get really partisan about their AKs and ARs. What a silly waste that is, since it is best to have all of the above.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Bizman on February 03, 2016, 11:49:18 AM
By the subject I thought it'd be about Arabian Knights, the squad.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: WaffenVW on February 03, 2016, 11:56:38 AM
Just a poke at AK guys, nothing serious. I like AKs too, but not with a passion. This was a brutal test and the AK is probably more reliable in a test where only a little crap gets into the action. The early ARs, the Vietnam-era M16A1 got a bad rep because of a number of mistakes, like believing it was a "self cleaning rifle" and not issuing cleaning kits. Soldiers were firing thousands of rounds with no cleaning. That's just not going to work very well. Even more so with the filthy gun powder in use at the time. AK's probably better at surviving that kind of long-time abuse tho.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Shuffler on February 03, 2016, 01:38:36 PM
Most folks using AKS carry a towel around with them for cleaning. They conviniently store this on their head for quick access.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Nathan60 on February 03, 2016, 01:41:11 PM
Most folks using AKS carry a towel around with them for cleaning. They conviniently store this on their head for quick access.
(https://imgflip.com/readImage?iid=36993371)
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: bustr on February 03, 2016, 03:08:45 PM
I think Kalashnikov was really aiming at a gun that could be mishandled, use sub par ammo, thrown in a corner and ignored, and forgotten to clean regularly by conscripted undereducated troops. Then still fire when needed. That was his experience coming off the battle fields of WW2. Guys were always amazed they could throw one in a locker then pull it out to plink with a month later, rusty from the humidity, and it would fire and cycle.
I wonder if Kalashnikov was ever forced to soak one in mud and have it cycle by leaders who would have sent him to the uranium mines for making them loose face failing a test like that?
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: WaffenVW on February 03, 2016, 05:20:11 PM
The guys at Polenar on youtube did a thing where their AK guy and AR guy would swap guns and do some drills. Hilarity and some profanity ensued...
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: DaveBB on February 03, 2016, 05:39:52 PM
M-16 was still jamming and getting Americans killed in Iraq. Standing order was to not lubricate it before going outside the wire. Most famous incident was Jessica Lynch's convoy. M-16s essentially became single shot rifles, failing after each shot.
Piston operated M-16s (HK416) are a different story. Much more reliable.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: WaffenVW on February 03, 2016, 06:03:14 PM
They did a dust test also, but not with the AK. Not yet anyway.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: 10thmd on February 03, 2016, 06:30:01 PM
I have personally seen M-4's jam with very small amounts of sand involved.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: DaveBB on February 03, 2016, 06:34:59 PM
Sand that has the consistency of talcum powder seems to be the worst offender.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: 10thmd on February 03, 2016, 06:35:41 PM
Yup
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: WaffenVW on February 03, 2016, 07:17:32 PM
I'll take your word for it. I'm an H&K guy, I don't bother with complicates gas systems. I'll take a roller delayed blowback over DI or piston gun every time.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Nefarious on February 03, 2016, 08:29:04 PM
I'm an AK "fanboi" and a firm believer in the AK platform. However I don't claim it to be any more superior than most any other major platform.
It does what it does and that's good enough for me.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: DaveBB on February 03, 2016, 08:49:49 PM
Was the AR-15 in that video direct gas impingement or piston operated? The MR556/H&K 416 is piston operated.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on February 03, 2016, 09:11:54 PM
An AR with a gas piston is sort of like a woman with a trouser snake. You can still call it an AR, but accepting it as one requires a bit of a stretch.
I mean, it's described as a development of the m4 carbine, and it shares a caliber, but the entire gas system is proprietary h&k... They also redesigned the grips, rail, and sight.
Not saying it's bad. H&k makes nice stuff. But it's a fundamentally different system. I'll give them compatibility, though, and this was a smart marketing move. Supposedly you can mate the entire 416 upper with an m4 lower.
I note that this has moved into us service and is reputed to be ultra-reliable. Aka "the gun that killed bin laden"...
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: WaffenVW on February 03, 2016, 09:49:21 PM
The AR in the In Range tests has a direct impingement gas system.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: WaffenVW on February 03, 2016, 09:54:41 PM
The HK416 action is based on the G36, which in turn is based on the AR18.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Serenity on February 04, 2016, 09:15:24 AM
An AR with a gas piston is sort of like a woman with a trouser snake. You can still call it an AR, but accepting it as one requires a bit of a stretch.
Actually, PJ, even I wouldn't call a piston AR a real AR lol.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: camnite on March 12, 2016, 03:25:13 AM
for you piston ar guys
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfZcEjdvx8c
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: camnite on March 12, 2016, 03:28:38 AM
for you piston ar guys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfZcEjdvx8c
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Gman on March 12, 2016, 12:43:46 PM
IMO the advantage of the piston AR15 systems over the DI ones is in shorter barrel lengths. SBR with DI gas systems, even with specifically equipped with shorter/wider gas tubes and specialized blocks/bolt carrier mods, never worked quite as well as longer 18/20" barrel length ARs. Also, running suppressors is a BIG plus with a piston rifle over a direct impingement setup. For several reasons. So the reason piston AR rifles were so swag with all the special mission units is a: they usually run shorter barrel rifles than the infantry (used to at least), and b: they often have suppressors on their rifles, where that's rare with regular units.
There are benefits and costs to both systems. Probably the best write up I've seen I bookmarked a few years back, and I agree 100% with this guys analysis. http://www.gundigest.com/tactical-gear/tactical-guns/ar-15-pistons
The best system IMO is still a long stroke piston - Sig550/PE90 out of the dozens of military type semi autos I own and have used is still the best out of the box rifle in the world IMO, and the South Korean Daewoo Max is a close second, both long strokers. Of the dozen + AR platforms and various uppers I have, 90% of them are DI, not piston, only my 10" and 11.5" uppers are piston rifles right now.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Masherbrum on March 12, 2016, 02:05:02 PM
The person who introduced me to the shooting world, served in the Army and NG. His unit was invited to a NATO exercise at Camp Evjemoen back around 2002. He will still sing the praises of the Valmet M76. He preferred it and shot it the most out of all of the rifles.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: GScholz on March 12, 2016, 05:17:39 PM
The Valmet is a licenced AK clone with some neat upgrades. Kinda like the Israeli Galil. Evjemoen is no more I'm sorry to say, was closed down in 2002. I've tried the Valmet, AKM, Swedish AK-4 and AK-5 and M-16A2, but my personal favorite of all the service rifles I've shot is the H&K G3, or specifically the Norwegian version, the AG3. Very accurate and reliable. No gas system, very simple delayed blow back. Never had a malfunction that wasn't just ammunition misfire. Can take a lot of mistreatment and crap and still runs, perfect for arctic conditions. Makes big holes in anything you point it at and you can really reach out and touch people at those arctic 500+ meter ranges.
At 7:50 there's a funny story how he got interested in the G3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH7Q2oG-rW0
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Masherbrum on March 12, 2016, 06:49:21 PM
Correct. It was the last one held there, in either 2001 or 2002.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: GScholz on March 12, 2016, 08:59:47 PM
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: GScholz on March 12, 2016, 09:23:59 PM
Mud test. Not as professionally done as those guys with the AR and AK tho. G3... the only gun I know of you can clean with mud. :D
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Zimme83 on March 14, 2016, 07:27:55 PM
G3/AK-4 is a very robust gun, just a Little Heavy and a bit slow to reload. AK-5 is a bit more fragile but handle the climate well, good thing is that you can have the gloves on when you use it, nice feature in the Winter.. (https://www.soldf.com/images/s_ak5.jpg)
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Zimme83 on March 14, 2016, 07:31:02 PM
But as for the test, it doesn't really prove anything, statistically speaking the result could just be a coincident...
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: FX1 on March 14, 2016, 10:13:51 PM
I have many people out to the ranch and shoot most weekends. Out of all the rifles that have come threw the gates ar's don't have the best % of running strong. Either they will have a jam from magazines or broken bolts ect. Then if you give them a couple days in a open air vechile with Texas dust this will cause havoc. Great rifle but for what I do their is no need to shoot nickles at 100 yards. If you can hit a pie plate at 200 then your gtg. So I have a krink if I take a rifle for a weekend. It's also fun to shoot without the supresser. Makes you understand the power in such a small rifle.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Gman on March 16, 2016, 04:28:05 PM
I'd bet a large majority of those ARs at your ranch aren't properly lubed/greased. It's so common that the huge majority of courses I've taken and taught, that doing a function check at the start of day 1 shows that nearly every AR/AK user hasn't done this for some reason. Clean is one thing, greased/lubed is another. And, if you run either of those rifles hard, as in training hard, like 1500 round days, with some 2 to 300 round evolutions in those days, the major cause for failures is lack of properly lubing and greasing the rifle in proper places. I'm not saying there aren't other causes for stoppages and failures, just that there is a systemic problem in the semi auto rifle shooting community to NOT do this right for some reason.
Also, in areas like you describe in Texas, and in the mid east as well, there are products you can use specific for that kind of dust to make rifles more resistant to problems, but it's still IMO one of the hardest environments to keep a rifle functioning well, fine dust that's airborne a lot due to wind.
I have a 545 Krink rifle as well - it's not a true Krinkov, but a kit put on a full sized rifle, so close enough. We rented it on our range for years back in the early 2000s. Loud, big flash. Never had a suppressor on it though. I've never owned a Valmet, but i've shot the M76 in 556, excellent rifle, reminded me a lot of my tanker Galil. Love to grab a heavy barrel Valmet M78 too if it was possible. A few pop up for sale up here from time to time, missed this one last year when it went for 4500$.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: FX1 on March 16, 2016, 05:15:31 PM
Your correct to assume most people don't properly store their rifles. The first question I ask was when was the last time you shot your rifle and have you cleaned the barrel sense then. If the answer was years ago or I just cleaned the barrel before coming out then the next stop is the range. 300 blk has made the platform a great option but I am surprised you don't see as many 6.8. I understand why people buy a 300 to shoot suppressed but what people don't understand is that subsonic ammo killing power is basically 0 after 50-70 yards. A 6.8 for me would be the wtg. My subsonic gun is a carbine 45 and it works really well on smaller pigs and it's quiet without a suppressor.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: Golfer on March 16, 2016, 09:51:37 PM
I'd bet a large majority of those ARs at your ranch aren't properly lubed/greased. It's so common that the huge majority of courses I've taken and taught, that doing a function check at the start of day 1 shows that nearly every AR/AK user hasn't done this for some reason.
This. I have a decent kit that I bring with me to a big shooting/hog hunting weekend at a buddy's ranch which would handle most of the common failures in several popular platforms that show up. This year I "repaired" 8 or so rifles following failure to fire with CLP. Another guy with a Remington 1100 said it wasn't cycling which in my experience is a pretty short list of suspect causes. One cycle of the action and you could feel how dry this thing was. I showed him where and how to lube it and it ran like a champ the rest of the weekend.
No O-Rings, gas rings, bolts, pins, snap rings or set screws. Just a half a can of CLP fixed everything we came up against this and last year. I did replace one guys firing pin retainer pin because they split the ends "because it's a cotter pin" he said. Sigh. He said he bought it like that but also justified the way it was...yah huh.
Title: Re: AK fanbois on suicide watch
Post by: FX1 on March 17, 2016, 10:32:25 AM
This weekend we have two guys headed to the ranch and both just got their new AR IR set ups. Should be interesting to see what arsenal they bring. Might need to break out the 1938 Steyr.