Aces High Bulletin Board

Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: Brooke on February 27, 2016, 01:29:50 PM

Title: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 27, 2016, 01:29:50 PM
How about a battle with La-5, Yak-7b, P-39 (because of the book "Attack of the Airacobras: Soviet Aces, American P-39s, and the Air War Against Germany", by Dmitriy Loza), Tu-2, Il-2 vs. 109G, 190A-5, Ju 88, maybe some Stukas or FW 190F's?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on February 27, 2016, 03:28:28 PM
Sounds like a blast!

The real question is, where and when do you figure on setting this? North, Central, or South sectors will pretty much force your hands in unit selection.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: waystin2 on February 27, 2016, 03:53:38 PM
I am trying not to flip out but this is a dreamy sounding event!!!  :x  :banana:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Nefarious on February 27, 2016, 04:10:45 PM
Sounds like a blast!

The real question is, where and when do you figure on setting this? North, Central, or South sectors will pretty much force your hands in unit selection.

If were still using AH2, Perhaps take a Pacific war approach and do an all encompassing style event. Frame 1 could be Leningrad 1941/42, Frame 2 Stalingrad, Frame 3 Kursk,  Frame 4 Bagration or even later.

If I could choose one,  I would choose something set Kursk or later.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on February 27, 2016, 05:29:08 PM
Whatever the theater, I like the 'total war' approach - ala 'Axis and Allies' where resources are spent for equipment/research, etc. (but a 12 hour/1 frame event precludes such)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on February 27, 2016, 06:11:39 PM
Whatever the theater, I like the 'total war' approach - ala 'Axis and Allies' where resources are spent for equipment/research, etc.

Except this was not a feature of the war on the Eastern Front. Neither Germany, nor the Soviets, conducted  strategic bombing against the other. Most of this was due to the distances involved between the front and the centers for production and R&D. The other reason being the lack of an aircraft capable of that kind of mission. There was no feasible way to slow the introduction of new aircraft types using tactical strikes.  There are no factories, or even depots where aircraft were stockpiled awaiting distribution, within range of an enemy attack.

As far as resources go, even given the idea of giving Germany the objective of capturing the oil fields of southeast Ukraine, Germany's failure to capture this supply took many months/years to become a noticeable problem at the front. Limited fuel supplies were dealt with by cutting back the training time for new pilots, but it did not hinder the available fuel supply to frontline units until very late in the war, and had no effect on the supply of the aircraft themselves.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on February 27, 2016, 06:38:47 PM
Whatever theater practical. I'll still like this idea, thank you. ;)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Kanth on February 27, 2016, 07:07:10 PM

Umm Yes please!  :x

How about a battle with La-5, Yak-7b, P-39 (because of the book "Attack of the Airacobras: Soviet Aces, American P-39s, and the Air War Against Germany", by Dmitriy Loza), Tu-2, Il-2 vs. 109G, 190A-5, Ju 88, maybe some Stukas or FW 190F's?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 27, 2016, 07:21:43 PM
Since we just got done with a progressive/rolling-plane-set-type of event, I'd like this one to be the same planes throughout.  I think it's best to mix it up scenario to scenario so that various preferences are covered.

I actually prefer the same planes throughout as I get more into the mood of it and feel better rooted to the history of the event.

Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on February 27, 2016, 07:42:46 PM
[James T. Kirk voice] I ... don't ... see ... theI-16Moscafighter. [/James T. Kirk voice]  :devil
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: kilo2 on February 27, 2016, 07:52:00 PM
Northern front, JG5 area of operation would be interesting.

Recon Spits.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 27, 2016, 07:53:37 PM
[James T. Kirk voice] I ... don't ... see ... theI-16Moscafighter. [/James T. Kirk voice]  :devil

I would like that, but I don't think enough people would sign up for them.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 27, 2016, 07:57:32 PM
Here's the terrain that is (I hope) available.  There is a snow and a non-snow version of it.

Let's hear some suggested battles or engagements that fit this terrain and the above plane set, you history buffs out there.

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/misc/aces_high/201606EasternFront/blkseaw.png)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 27, 2016, 08:14:33 PM
We should aim for an event size of 50 on a side.

Also, I'm counting on you folks to get out there and recruit to fill it.

History of scenarios indicates that balance of fighters:bombers in a scenario should be about 3:1, which means we'd be aiming for 38 fighters and 12 bombers.  When you have Il-2's and especially 190F's, they have sort of a foot in both categories, so perhaps something like:

Case 1
Soviet:  34 fighters, 9 Tu-2's, 7 Il-2's.
LW:  34 fighters, 9 Ju 88's, 7 190F's.

or

Case 2
Soviet:  38 fighters, 12 Tu-2's with lives also in Il-2's.
LW: 38 fighters, 12 Ju 88's with lives also in 190F's.

Note that this is leaning toward no I-16's and no Stukas, even though both were probably part of any battle we'd be contemplating.  The reason is that people tend not to like flying those two planes given the rest of the plane set.  There are ways to work in non-favored planes as 2nd or 3rd lives, but in this case it is sort of asymmetric as there isn't a non-favored LW fighter or a non-favored Soviet divebomber so that each side has 3rd live in a non-favored.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 27, 2016, 08:16:38 PM
As for season, I'd prefer winter.

That allow us to use a winter map, which visually is quite nice change of pace.

Winter or summer, this is the Eastern Front . . . and we will have clouds.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on February 27, 2016, 08:29:42 PM
I would like that, but I don't think enough people would sign up for them.

You have one here. I might could use my renown powers of persuasion. Only the best fly the Mosca (me being the exception).
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: SIK1 on February 27, 2016, 08:34:05 PM
I'm in for a 109F/G.

Rock the cow skin!!  :rock

 :salute
Sik
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Nefarious on February 27, 2016, 09:06:11 PM
The Terrain is well suited for a Kuban or Kursk event. Down in the Crimea area you could involve Black Sea Ships.

Kind of hard to do a Kursk event without using GVs, but you could perhaps have a Free for All GV battle just for fun, no scoring or anything.

I think 1943 or later would be desirable as it speeds up and broadens the plane set for the VVS.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on February 27, 2016, 09:10:53 PM

Kind of hard to do a Kursk event without using GVs, but you could perhaps have a Free for All GV battle just for fun, no scoring or anything.


THIS is one of the BEST event ideas EVAR! So, you got shot down? Roll `em!  :D
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Nefarious on February 27, 2016, 09:12:41 PM
THIS is one of the BEST event ideas EVAR! So, you got shot down? Roll `em!  :D

I did a Kursk FSO a few years back where we enabled GVs at T+60 for one frame and played capture the town. The team that held it at the end of the frame "won" the GV battle.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on February 27, 2016, 09:14:31 PM
I did a Kursk FSO a few years back where we enabled GVs at T+60 for one frame and played capture the town. The team that held it at the end of the frame "won" the GV battle.

Maybe a later Bulge event could kinda work the same way.  :D
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Nefarious on February 27, 2016, 09:21:21 PM
Maybe a later Bulge event could kinda work the same way.  :D

 :D


Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on February 27, 2016, 09:30:41 PM
Battles from late fall '42 through spring '44 that fit the map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad  (Fall/winter '42)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Winter_Storm (Fall/winter '42)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Kharkov  (Winter/spring '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk (Summer '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Dnieper (Fall '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kiev_(1943) (final stages of Dnieper campaign - final stages in Dec. '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Korsun%E2%80%93Cherkassy_Pocket (Feb. '44)


Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on February 27, 2016, 09:33:01 PM
Battles from late fall '42 through spring '44 that fit the map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad  (Fall/winter '42)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Winter_Storm (Fall/winter '42)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Kharkov  (Winter/spring '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk (Summer '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Dnieper (Fall '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kiev_(1943) (final stages of Dnieper campaign - final stages in Dec. '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Korsun%E2%80%93Cherkassy_Pocket (Feb. '44)

Choices ... choices. Decisions .... decisions? All of them! 7 frame event!  :bolt:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: kilo2 on February 27, 2016, 09:38:21 PM
Battles from late fall '42 through spring '44 that fit the map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad  (Fall/winter '42)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Winter_Storm (Fall/winter '42)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Kharkov  (Winter/spring '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk (Summer '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Dnieper (Fall '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kiev_(1943) (final stages of Dnieper campaign - final stages in Dec. '43)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Korsun%E2%80%93Cherkassy_Pocket (Feb. '44)

Battle of Kiev out of that group would make for a fun one I think.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on February 27, 2016, 09:45:41 PM

That's a pretty big battle. I was somewhat joking about making this as big as all 7 camps. Maybe just part of this one even.  :huh
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: kilo2 on February 27, 2016, 09:50:48 PM
  • Kiev Strategic Offensive Operation (October) (1–24 October 1943) by the Central and Voronezh Fronts
  • Chernobyl-Radomysl Offensive Operation (1–4 October 1943)
  • Chernobyl-Gornostaipol Defensive Operation (3–8 October 1943)
  • Lyutezh Offensive Operation (11–24 October 1943)
  • Bukrin Offensive Operation (12–15 October 1943)
  • Bukrin Offensive Operation (21–24 October 1943)
  • Kiev Strategic Offensive Operation (November) (3–13 November 1943)
  • Rauss' November 1943 counterattack
  • Kiev Strategic Defensive Operation (1943) (13 November 1943–22 December 1943)

That's a pretty big battle. I was somewhat joking about making this as big as all 7 camps. Maybe just part of this one even.  :huh

Even if you only have November to December it could work for 4 frames. There is a bunch of back and forth during that time frame. Plus it would fit for the winter map.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on February 27, 2016, 09:52:06 PM
Agreed.  :salute :cheers:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 27, 2016, 10:40:38 PM
Choices ... choices. Decisions .... decisions? All of them! 7 frame event!  :bolt:

 :aok

Or, how about this many frames:

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/longbow/longbow.html

 :D
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 27, 2016, 10:59:37 PM
you could perhaps have a Free for All GV battle just for fun, no scoring or anything.

THIS is one of the BEST event ideas EVAR! So, you got shot down? Roll `em!  :D

I like this idea.

We could have it work this way.  Once a player is out of airplane lives, he can up a GV, and there will be no limits to GV lives.  The GV's will fight a battle between themselves, and the winner of the GV battle each frame will be the side with the most kills.  We'll preclude interaction between planes and GV's (as that was never popular in past scenarios).

The map doesn't have a lot of options for battling over bases.

Here are the spawns on the map:

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/misc/aces_high/201606EasternFront/blkseawSpawns.png)

Here is the full map with bases:

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/misc/aces_high/201606EasternFront/blkseawBases.png)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on February 27, 2016, 11:53:07 PM
What will happen if the new version goes live before this event is set to run? Is someone working on converting the map already so we won't be hindered?

If there is a new map in the works, I'd suggest trimming off the lower 4 rows of sectors and including 4 sectors more land to the north - could be close to including Moscow with how this map scales.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 28, 2016, 12:25:03 AM
Looking good.

Let's make it "Dnieper, Winter '43".

We've got the 109G's of JG 52 (Hartmann, Barkhorn, Krupinski, Rall) and the 190A-5's of JG 54 (Kittel, Nowotny) and the ground attack capability of SG 2 (Rudel).

On the Soviet side, we've got the La-5's of 240th IAP (Kozhedub), the P-39's of 9 GIAD (Pokryshkin, Rechkalov), and still trying to decipher other stuff.  Most of the top Soviet aces where there -- just not sure of what units and what planes yet.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 28, 2016, 12:26:41 AM
What will happen if the new version goes live before this event is set to run?

The maps need to be translated into the new setup.  My impression is that it is easier than making a map from scratch, but you still need someone with map skills to do it.

I'm reaching out to the special-events terrain folks to see if they would agree to prioritize blkseaw.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 28, 2016, 12:36:38 AM
Could some folks out there give me some input on the ratio of 109G's to 190A's in this battle (along with references, if you have them)?

Same for Soviet side on P-39's, La-5's, Yak-7's, and possibly Yak-9's.

Also, anyone have the unit names for:
-- the Ju 88's present
-- Yak-7's
-- Yak-9's
-- Il-2's
-- Tu-2's (or Pe-2's if no Tu-2 units are found)

I also need unit names of some of the largest tank forces, both German and Soviet.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Easyscor on February 28, 2016, 03:03:06 AM
An observation from a curious bystander.

Both blacksea summer and winter are already on the Beta server. However, the last I looked, the fields need tweaking to the proper rotation but it is at least they're on the server. You can look at it.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 28, 2016, 03:43:40 AM
Excellent!

Thanks for the info!  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: BFOOT1 on February 28, 2016, 08:21:07 AM
This may sound selfish but I hope for this scenario we can still do it on AH2 servers. I'm graduating college this spring from universit. The laptop I run AH2 on runs it fine at constantly 60fps, but I don't know how it will handle AH3 with the terrain, clouds, and epic furballs. I'm hoping my graduation present will be a new rig, but we will see.

If we do it on the AH2 servers I'd love to be part of 109 group myself, working for the Ritterkruez myself  :aok I have a good idea for my fiction writing I do!
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on February 28, 2016, 11:32:51 AM
Brooke I'll try to dig up some specifics for you, but the ratio of 109s to 190s will be between 4:1 and 3:1.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on February 28, 2016, 12:22:27 PM
Here's the Luftwaffe fighter unit breakdown with aircraft and location as of November/December '43


Jg 51
I. Gruppe - 190A - Kirowograd in November. moved to Bobruisk, Belarus in December and changed to 109Gs. 
III Gruppe - 109G - Orscha, Belarus (technically off the map, but base in 4,19 is close)
IV Gruppe - 109G - Orscha

Jg 52
I Gruppe - 109G - Kirowograd
II Gruppe - 109G - Uman
III Gruppe - 109G - Apostolowo

Jg 54
I Gruppe - 190A - Orscha in December, Vitebsk,Belarus before that (even farther north than Orscha)
II Gruppe - 190A - Zhitomir
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 28, 2016, 01:06:32 PM
Excellent. Thanks.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 28, 2016, 01:10:11 PM
Bfoot, it might be that the beta doesnt need much more than ah2 as long as you reduce a few settings.

I played around with beta a bit and it seemed that way to me.

However, i havent experimented with clouds yet in beta.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: SuBWaYCH on February 28, 2016, 09:24:50 PM
This looks excellent!
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 28, 2016, 11:21:01 PM
Here's the Luftwaffe fighter unit breakdown with aircraft and location as of November/December '43


Jg 51
I. Gruppe - 190A - Kirowograd in November. moved to Bobruisk, Belarus in December and changed to 109Gs. 
III Gruppe - 109G - Orscha, Belarus (technically off the map, but base in 4,19 is close)
IV Gruppe - 109G - Orscha

Jg 52
I Gruppe - 109G - Kirowograd
II Gruppe - 109G - Uman
III Gruppe - 109G - Apostolowo

Jg 54
I Gruppe - 190A - Orscha in December, Vitebsk,Belarus before that (even farther north than Orscha)
II Gruppe - 190A - Zhitomir

Were the 109G's mostly 109G-6's in winter, '43, or were any of the groups in G-2's?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on February 28, 2016, 11:48:11 PM
Probably all G-6's by this point. The possible exception would be IV/Jg 51. They generally got the hand-me-down planes from the other Gruppe's in Russia.

EDIT: Even IV Gruppe Jg 51 had G-6s by December.

(http://i.imgur.com/DITEaAG.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 29, 2016, 12:48:34 AM
What was the status of radar on each side in the battle in winter of '43?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: artik on February 29, 2016, 03:28:07 AM
I suggest to take a look on this great source: http://www.airpages.ru/eng/

Regarding radars, I know soviets copied some British radars and had some home-build however I need to find the sources. From what I've read due to lack of equipment the radars where mostly used by PVO units at high value targets.
Tactical/frontline operation mostly was based on visual observation. But I'll try to find the sources I've seen.


https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%A3%D0%A1-2 (needs google translate)

Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on February 29, 2016, 10:16:51 PM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 03, 2016, 12:40:26 PM
Anyone have the unit names for:
-- the Ju 88's present
-- Yak-7's
-- Yak-9's
-- Il-2's
-- Tu-2's (or Pe-2's if no Tu-2 units are found)
-- German tank forces
-- Soviet tank forces
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on March 03, 2016, 09:25:10 PM
The only Ju88 near Ukraine were in KG 3.

I Gruppe: Kirowograd until October, Kalinowka, Poland through December (Off map but same latitude as Kiev)
II Gruppe: Orscha
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Beefcake on March 07, 2016, 09:37:00 PM
So were there any B25s operating in the area? Any Eastern Front battle has got to have some B25s.  :D


(From Red Storm a few years back.)
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq278/GenBeef/RS%20F2%20S2/S2RhineTwo.png)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: BFOOT1 on March 09, 2016, 07:08:36 AM
Here's the Luftwaffe fighter unit breakdown with aircraft and location as of November/December '43


Jg 51
I. Gruppe - 190A - Kirowograd in November. moved to Bobruisk, Belarus in December and changed to 109Gs. 
III Gruppe - 109G - Orscha, Belarus (technically off the map, but base in 4,19 is close)
IV Gruppe - 109G - Orscha

Jg 52
I Gruppe - 109G - Kirowograd
II Gruppe - 109G - Uman
III Gruppe - 109G - Apostolowo

Jg 54
I Gruppe - 190A - Orscha in December, Vitebsk,Belarus before that (even farther north than Orscha)
II Gruppe - 190A - Zhitomir
You can sign me up for one of the the Gruppes in JG52!
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Sloehand on March 11, 2016, 08:51:42 PM
Brooke
Just an FYI sideline since GV's were talked about earlier in the thread.  I have a plan for a GV battle with objectives that does not (but can) include a base capture.  I developed and tried out this and some other ideas when I was running the Tank Club ages ago and intending to eventually create a more involved and enjoyable GV-based scenario.
Simplified description, you need a location on a map with a large (or several fairly close together) city or factory complex.  This provides the offensive mission objective for the aggressor-side.  They are assigned a mix of destroyer type GV's (ostwinds, wirblewinds, M4's with rockets, M3 and LVT with howitzers) whose purpose is the destruction of city/factory objects.  They have a attached group of escort battle tanks for mission defense.  The have a choice of spawns to come out of and must travel to their target objective.
The defensive-side, has a very small number of spotter aircraft and high-speed scout GV's (M3, Jeep, etc.) to recon the enemy column(s) approach to the target.  At a certain time point in the frame, they can spawn small tank groups to interdict the incoming offensive before they can get close enough to the target city, where the destroyer GV's ONLY may take down buildings, etc.  No MBT's may destroy any city objects and are only for column defense.
Just an idea for the future that can be used as part of a standard air campaign, or a basically GV-only scenario.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LLv34_Dictonius on March 13, 2016, 05:27:28 AM
Hello. And greetings from Finland. Been reading this thread with interest and have been wondering if I should activate my account again just to take part. I was just having a conversation with other finns and we were pretty nostalgic about all the scenarios flown thus far. I am sorry to invade this development thread but wanted to give heads up. Finns have been pretty inactive as of late, but it seems something is brewing...

Btw. when was this scenario scheduled to take place?

Sorry again, carry on  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 13, 2016, 03:25:34 PM
Hello. And greetings from Finland. Been reading this thread with interest and have been wondering if I should activate my account again just to take part. I was just having a conversation with other finns and we were pretty nostalgic about all the scenarios flown thus far. I am sorry to invade this development thread but wanted to give heads up. Finns have been pretty inactive as of late, but it seems something is brewing...

Btw. when was this scenario scheduled to take place?

Sorry again, carry on  :aok

I have a proposal for you.

Different nations are known for different distilled alcoholic beverages.  For Britain (specifically Scotland), it is scotch.  For France, it is cognac (named after the town Cognac, France).  For Poland and Russia, it is vodka ("vodka" being Polish for "little water").  And so on.  The quintessential American distilled alcoholic beverage is bourbon (named after Bourbon County, Kentucky).

My favorite high-quality bourbon is Woodford Reserve, and I will ship a bottle of that to you Finns if you get six or more of you to register for the next scenario.  It is produced at the oldest distillery site in Kentucky, dating back to 1780.

More info on Woodford Reserve:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodford_Reserve

...it seems something is brewing...

Yes, and it could be shipped your way.  :aok

Are you agreeable to that?

Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 13, 2016, 03:26:17 PM
Btw. when was this scenario scheduled to take place?

In June.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on March 13, 2016, 03:31:10 PM
"The name is ultimately derived from the French Bourbon dynasty, although it is disputed whether Bourbon County in Kentucky or Bourbon Street in New Orleans inspired the whiskey's name."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_whiskey

 :bolt:

[  :cheers: ]
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 13, 2016, 03:33:30 PM
"The name is ultimately derived from the French Bourbon dynasty, although it is disputed whether Bourbon County in Kentucky or Bourbon Street in New Orleans inspired the whiskey's name."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_whiskey

 :bolt:

[  :cheers: ]

Them's fightin' words!  ;)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on March 13, 2016, 03:38:19 PM
(http://coolmaterial.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/bourbonhead1.jpg)

http://coolmaterial.com/food-drink/the-bourbon-bucket-list-15-bourbons-you-need-to-try-at-least-once/
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 13, 2016, 03:48:40 PM
5 best American bourbons

(http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/876/493/tertrt5465464fhh.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/07/15/5-best-american-bourbons/
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 13, 2016, 03:50:32 PM
The 15 Best Bourbons You Can Actually Buy

(http://gearpatrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/15-bourbons-gear-patrol-woodford.jpg)

http://gearpatrol.com/2014/03/28/best-available-bourbons/
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on March 13, 2016, 03:56:27 PM
(http://www.drinkmemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/swamp-moonshine-still-daniel-eskridge.jpg)

HOW TO BUILD A WHISKEY STILL IN LESS THAN 2 MINUTES (http://www.drinkmemag.com/how-to-build-a-whiskey-still-in-less-than-2-minutes/)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 13, 2016, 05:45:00 PM
Getting back on topic:

Can anyone out there let me know which from the following list still need winter skins?

Here is what will be in "Battle of the Dnieper, Winter '43":
-- Bf 109G-6
-- FW 190A-5
-- FW 190F-8
-- Ju 88
-- La-5
-- Yak-7b
-- Yak-9 (maybe)
-- P-39Q
-- Il-2
-- Tu-2S (perhaps sort of as Pe-2)
-- Panzer IV H
-- T-34
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on March 13, 2016, 07:09:01 PM
Getting back on topic:

Can anyone out there let me know which from the following list still need winter skins?

Here is what will be in "Battle of the Dnieper, Winter '43":
-- Bf 109G-6 Need - I'll take this one.
-- FW 190A-5 Got 3 already - I' have a 4th that is nearly done.
-- FW 190F-8 Need.
-- Ju 88 Have one.
-- La-5 I believe the VVS stopped whitewashing aircraft by this point, or at least stopped painting over the blue and gray scheme.
-- Yak-7b Have one.
-- Yak-9 (maybe) See LA-5
-- P-39Q  Have one
-- Il-2 Have one
-- Tu-2S (perhaps sort of as Pe-2) Going to say Need on this one.
-- Panzer IV H Have one
-- T-34 Have One
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 13, 2016, 07:29:07 PM
Sweet!

Would you be willing to do the following by April 20th?
-- Finish the 109G-6 winter skin.
-- Take one of the FW 190A-5 winter skins and do whatever is the absolute least amount of work to make it usable on a FW 190F-8.

The reason for wanting it so soon is that I assume a lengthy process to get skins added to the terrain (one way of getting skins available in a scenario) or to get skins added to the MA (the other way that they can be made available in a scenario).
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Easyscor on March 13, 2016, 07:30:03 PM
The 15 Best Bourbons You Can Actually Buy

http://gearpatrol.com/2014/03/28/best-available-bourbons/


I was going to call fake, but Weller's made their list.
Ah, the good ol' days, but then those days of party hardy are way behind me now.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on March 13, 2016, 07:35:15 PM
Sweet!

Would you be willing to do the following by April 20th?
-- Finish the 109G-6 winter skin.
-- Take one of the FW 190A-5 winter skins and do whatever is the absolute least amount of work to make it usable on a FW 190F-8.

The reason for wanting it so soon is that I assume a lengthy process to get skins added to the terrain (one way of getting skins available in a scenario) or to get skins added to the MA (the other way that they can be made available in a scenario).

The A-5 will be ready by April 1. The A-5 bitmap does not perfectly fit the F-8. that needs to be done from scratch. As does the G-6 since I lost all my templates with my old hard drive. I can't guarantee either of those before April 20. One is probable, but not both.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LLv34_Camouflage on March 14, 2016, 02:07:08 AM
Keep your Whiskies, Brandies and Cognacs. The Finns have a better solution: Jaloviina, "noble spirit". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_brandy)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Jaloviina-Cut_Brandy-Original_colour-1.JPG/1024px-Jaloviina-Cut_Brandy-Original_colour-1.JPG)

 :aok

Camo :D
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LLv34_Camouflage on March 14, 2016, 02:36:36 AM
Here is what will be in "Battle of the Dnieper, Winter '43":
-- Bf 109G-6
-- FW 190A-5
-- FW 190F-8
-- Ju 88
-- La-5
-- Yak-7b
-- Yak-9 (maybe)
-- P-39Q
-- Il-2
-- Tu-2S (perhaps sort of as Pe-2)
-- Panzer IV H
-- T-34

I just read the wikipedia article on the campaign (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Dnieper). I can already see waves of LVTs crossing the river. :)  Looks like a good setup.  How are you planning to include the tactical ground element, which is typical of the Eastern Front? The best scenarios I've been involved in, have been designed around heavy ground action, which forces the aerial battle to low altitudes: Ground troops "capture the flags" and advance the frontline, this forces the bombers and attack planes to ground level, which brings the fights low. Great fun! Have you considered disabling C47s, for example...?

Past scenarios which come into mind are Niemen and Stalin's Fourth. Both had a thought out and well executed ground element.  Each squadron had a limited number of fighters, bombers and GVs. I also very much liked the launch windows which were used last year in the "Target for Today" 12-hour scenario.

Camo
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 14, 2016, 10:53:08 PM
Keep your Whiskies, Brandies and Cognacs.

So, is that a "no" to the offer above of Woodford?  :cheers:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LLv34_Dictonius on March 14, 2016, 11:48:44 PM
So, is that a "no" to the offer above of Woodford?  :cheers:

Not at all Brooke. Camo just likes to drink the very cheap stuff. One idea even came up that we arrange a meeting for the duration of one frame (or is this marathon scenario) where we could all share the goods!!!

Anyways, at the moment we have 8 pilots somewhat certain they can make it to some of the frames. I inform you more when we get closer to the start lines.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 15, 2016, 12:02:17 AM
Not at all Brooke. Camo just likes to drink the very cheap stuff. One idea even came up that we arrange a meeting for the duration of one frame (or is this marathon scenario) where we could all share the goods!!!

Anyways, at the moment we have 8 pilots somewhat certain they can make it to some of the frames. I inform you more when we get closer to the start lines.

Excellent!  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 15, 2016, 04:43:43 AM
Rough draft of scenario is here:

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201606_BattleOfTheDnieper/rules.htm

Feel free to provide input.

Also, note that I still need until names for several things listed in Order of Battle -- please help me find the unit names.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: SuBWaYCH on March 16, 2016, 12:32:55 AM
Looks great to me! I can't wait to take part!
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 16, 2016, 10:31:53 PM
Brooke, June opened up.  Meeting tonight cancelled a summer event to focus on my May golf tournament and Oktoberfest.
I may be back in the air sooner than I expected.
And, if so, might volunteer to CO the Allied side, unless you already have takers in the pipe.  I may just be in the mood to spend my time diving into the event from that side, it's been a while.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Hajo on March 16, 2016, 11:10:29 PM
Brooke, June opened up.  Meeting tonight cancelled a summer event to focus on my May golf tournament and Oktoberfest.
I may be back in the air sooner than I expected.
And, if so, might volunteer to CO the Allied side, unless you already have takers in the pipe.  I may just be in the mood to spend my time diving into the event from that side, it's been a while.

Good to hear!
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on March 17, 2016, 12:08:15 AM
Setup looks great Brooke. :aok

Put me down to CO I/Jg 54.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 17, 2016, 01:56:33 AM
AWESOME!

Might it be that we have:
-- ROC as CO of VVS
-- Subway as CO of LW
-- Devil as GL of I/JG 54

!@#$ yeah!

Guys, what do you say?  Can I lock you guys in for that?

It is also looking like we will have the Finns in this one in force.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: FBDragon on March 17, 2016, 08:10:36 AM
count me in Devils group!!!! :salute :salute :salute
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on March 17, 2016, 02:53:19 PM
count me in Devils group!!!! :salute :salute :salute

 :salute
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: SuBWaYCH on March 17, 2016, 03:40:43 PM
I can give you confirmation on this by next week, if that's acceptable!

Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 17, 2016, 04:08:28 PM
I can give you confirmation on this by next week, if that's acceptable!

Sounds good!  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: DarkHawk on March 17, 2016, 05:40:59 PM
Hi Brooks, Do you need a good JU88 group leader, count me in

DHawk
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 17, 2016, 07:25:54 PM
Hi Brooks, Do you need a good JU88 group leader, count me in

DHawk

Oh, yes!  Many thanks, and welcome aboard!  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 17, 2016, 08:19:19 PM
Let me put some feelers out, see if I can assemble a command team, let you know next week.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 17, 2016, 08:45:17 PM
Let me put some feelers out, see if I can assemble a command team, let you know next week.

I am envisioning a football-team owner saying, "Let me put some feelers out, see if I can round up a few football players, and I'll let you know next week."  :aok

I volunteer for GL duties on VVS side.  I'm not sure what plane I'd like to sign up for yet, though.  I was thinking P-39's, but Tu-2's and Il-2's have some appeal to me as well.

Da, Komrade!  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: KCDitto on March 17, 2016, 10:55:33 PM
 :noid
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 18, 2016, 12:23:29 AM
:noid

And, Ditto!  Which side are you going to be on?  Will it be the Iron Cross or the Red Star?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 18, 2016, 12:31:13 AM
Here is what will be in "Battle of the Dnieper, Winter '43":
-- Bf 109G-6 Need - I'll take this one.
-- FW 190A-5 Got 3 already - I' have a 4th that is nearly done.
-- FW 190F-8 Need.
-- Ju 88 Have one.
-- La-5 I believe the VVS stopped whitewashing aircraft by this point, or at least stopped painting over the blue and gray scheme.
-- Yak-7b Have one.
-- Yak-9 (maybe) See LA-5
-- P-39Q  Have one
-- Il-2 Have one
-- Tu-2S (perhaps sort of as Pe-2) Going to say Need on this one.
-- Panzer IV H Have one
-- T-34 Have One

Devil, when you say "have one", do you mean it is already in the MA or that you have one to provide if we can put it into the terrain?

For example, I don't see a winter skin in the MA for the P-39Q.  There are winter skins for the P-39D -- can we upload those into a terrain file for use on a P-39Q?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Crash Orange on March 18, 2016, 05:27:43 AM
This looks awesome.   :rock  Not sure which side I want to fly yet, but I'm definitely in.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 18, 2016, 10:29:56 AM
Devil and everyone:

It looks like we'll be using blksea terrain and not blkseaw (assuming AH3 comes out before June).

That means the ground won't be white, so we probably wouldn't use the winter skins.

Terrains need to be converted to AH3, which is a lot of work with only Ghostdancer heroically working on it himself currently.  By June, converted blksea and blkseaw will be available, but because of needing new custom tiles for winter, blkseaw won't have trees at first.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 18, 2016, 10:32:52 AM
Devil, also, since the time frame will be before winter (say, September, 1943), should any of the 109 groups be 109G-2's instead of 109G-6's?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: KCDitto on March 18, 2016, 11:16:00 AM
I will be flying planes with Black Crosses on the wings and yes we need a group of G-2's plaese.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on March 18, 2016, 11:37:19 AM
No G-2's for late '43.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 18, 2016, 01:11:57 PM
cc.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on March 18, 2016, 02:38:20 PM
Devil and everyone:

It looks like we'll be using blksea terrain and not blkseaw (assuming AH3 comes out before June).

That means the ground won't be white, so we probably wouldn't use the winter skins.

Terrains need to be converted to AH3, which is a lot of work with only Ghostdancer heroically working on it himself currently.  By June, converted blksea and blkseaw will be available, but because of needing new custom tiles for winter, blkseaw won't have trees at first.

This does solve the issue with having winter skins, and also for including skins for notable aces, IE: Nowotny, Barkhorn, and Hartmann.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 18, 2016, 03:10:14 PM
I think Camo and Company should shock the world and defect to the Russians........ :cheers:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: puller on March 18, 2016, 03:38:41 PM
I think Camo and Company should shock the world and defect to the Russians........ :cheers:

<thumbs down icon>
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 18, 2016, 05:06:33 PM
I think Camo and Company should shock the world and defect to the Russians........ :cheers:

You'll need to build some Soviet skins with the Finnish swastika.

Those Finns get around.

One of these was spotted in Rangoon:

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201105_roadToRangoon/pics/frame3/009-attackG4M-Image-0011.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 18, 2016, 07:52:26 PM
So far I've got a Brooke, Dantoo, Alpo and DH367th lined up for the preliminary command team.
Not a bad start.  More feelers out but looks like im in.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 18, 2016, 10:36:25 PM
Sweet!
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 18, 2016, 10:37:11 PM
Subway, are you up for axis CO?   :pray  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 18, 2016, 11:00:46 PM
One question I'd like to discuss with folks -- please all chip in on this discussion.

This scenario could have level bombers and attack planes as separate groups (like we have it currently), or it could have one group with 3 lives in level bombers and 3 in attack planes, which they can use in any order they want.

What are thoughts about that?

Here is a fuller description of what's going through my mind on this.

In scenarios, it is usually the case that you have some plane type that was in the real battle which is not so popular in AH or that might have a tough time in the particular scenario setup.

Sometimes, such a plane is just eliminated or another plane type is substituted because it does no good to have the plane in the scenario if no one registers for it or flies it.  You might as well then not have it.

In this scenario, an example is the Stuka.  It was in the battle, not FW 190F-8's.  However, the Stuka is a very vulnerable plane, and groups of them are basically dead if even a couple of fighters happen upon them.  They can do OK in a scenario where there is a lot of territory, with targets spread out all over the place, but that is not the case here.  So, I made the decision to substitute the FW 190F-9 (since 190's eventually replaced Stukas -- I was accelerating history).

However, another approach is to keep it in, but make it available to players as extra lives.  For example, you get some lives in your primary plane and some lives in Stukas -- something like that.  Then folks are generally OK if they get killed in all their normal lives to fly a Stuka around.

The Il-2 is not as vulnerable as the Stuka (thanks to its sturdiness, guns, and it might turn a little better), and there is more it can do when it gets to a target (since it has more bombs plus rockets and good guns).

I am wondering, though, if the close-in action of this scenario will allow for fun Il-2 piloting, or if it will seem like a death trap every mission.  In the latter case, I should consolidate the level and attack bombing groups into one group.

What are people's thoughts on this?  Keep in mind that, if you have never flown bombers or attack planes in a scenario, you might not fully know what things are like.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 18, 2016, 11:04:37 PM
I'm going to stay out of the design completely.  I want to fly whatever I have, against whatever is up, and not care.  Just lock it down so the planning, strategies and training can begin, then don't touch it :)  I want to be mission planning in April.  Brooke, you'll get this reference, we are going 2005 Coral Sea practice mode.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: KCDitto on March 18, 2016, 11:26:02 PM
How about you make available (X) # of Stukas
                                         (X) # of F-8's
                                         (X) # JU-88s

And let the axis CO use them as he sees fit?  Same on Russian side of course.

Make it  a little more open on the planning side and that way ROC has no idea what is coming at him at any given hour of the 3 hour frame
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 18, 2016, 11:52:21 PM
Quote
Make it  a little more open on the planning side and that way ROC has no idea what is coming at him at any given hour of the 3 hour frame
Pfft of course I'll know, I'll have my command bunker set up outside your house tapped into your wifi  :noid
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: SuBWaYCH on March 19, 2016, 12:22:42 AM
I think the current setup is great and completely workable. There are a lot of people who would love to ONLY fly bombers or ONLY fighters in a scenario, and I think it might be a bit unpopular to say that they have to fly both the F-8's and/or Ju-88's.

I don't think Stuka's add anything to the scenario - we want the action to be fast paced and consistent. Adding Ju87's will just slow down the action and give easy targets to the soviets.

Hopefully high interest leads to registration filling up quickly, and then we get the option of adding an additional squadron to each side or adding onto the existing squadrons (hopefully adding some more bombers).

Also, I can commit to being Axis CO at this time - my best friend is having a baby girl in June but its looking like it'll be a weekday and not a weekend!

I will start sending out messages to those interested in leading groups and get a command team assembled.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on March 19, 2016, 12:31:39 AM
I don't like the idea, but unfortunately, I think you're locked into having to do something like this given the low expected turnout. I imagine that there will only be one attack objective per side at a time, otherwise assets will stretched too thin.

Maybe also allow unlimited strafing in Ju87G-2's and HurriD's in the final hour just to keep them involved. This would replace the Ju-87B dive bomber in my mind, and help to keep the balance.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 19, 2016, 12:36:36 AM
I like it a lot better as a player when I get a single plane and single history that is my role in the scenario.

If it's a collection of planes, it seems a lot more shallow to me and gets to be more like a board game with no scenario depth.

One one extreme, you'd sign up for a scenario and be in JG 52, where Hartman, Krupinski, Rall, and Barkhorn flew.  You'd fly a 109G on the Eastern Front.  If you want, you can fly the 109G for the month in advance of the scenario and get all the nuances of it.  If you are really into it, you could read a book that has some JG 52 action in it.

On the other extreme, your side gets 109G's, 190A's, 190F's, Ju 87's, and Ju 88's, and you get shuffled temporarily into whichever one seems best for some points formula or to meet (somewhat-artificial) objective X.  People in those situations don't bother to practice the various aircraft, get into the history of it, or read about a particular group.  They just show up on game day and fly whatever and with whatever is their current AH ability.  That, to me, biases things away from what makes scenarios toward an event that becomes more like "This Day" or a snapshot.

So, if I think particular groups will work, I am heavily in favor of that.

Only if I think being in a particular group will be a disaster do I use the tool of lumping that ride in with others, to dilute the downside of it.

In this scenario, 190F-8's should be fine.  If a side has a problem utilizing 190F-8's when historically it would have Stukas, I have no sympathy.  ;)  Il-2's, I *think* will be OK.  In fact, while I have been for a long time wishing for an Eastern Front scenario so that I could fly the P-39 in it, now that it's here, the Il-2 is looking also appealing to me.  The Il-2 is such a major aircraft of WWII.   The Tu-2's also look appealing.

It is interesting to discuss all of this, though.  I like discussions.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 19, 2016, 12:40:50 AM
Also, I can commit to being Axis CO at this time

MARVELOUS!

Whooo hoooo!

OK, Axis -- you folks have your CO.

And welcome back, Subway!  :aok   :banana:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 19, 2016, 12:46:00 AM
OK, folks, in honor of ROC and Subway stepping up for CO duty, everyone is required to listen to at least the first 40 seconds of this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M

Celebrate good times, come on!  :banana:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 19, 2016, 12:51:15 AM
Every one around the world -- come on!  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 19, 2016, 01:13:01 AM
Quote
It is interesting to discuss all of this, though.  I like discussions.
Discussions are good, but I build things, and hate meetings.  I have a horrible reputation in my industry, I sit on several boards, and am well known for "I am not going to go to a meeting to talk about things we need to talk about that we talked about the last time we talked".
Lets lock down the design so we can begin work on the plans and training.  I can't start while one of my key people is still designing it ;)  When the design is done, I'll start, it's not fair to the other side if we start planning and then make changes while the designer is part of the planning effort on one side, so until the design is complete, I won't participate in the setup discussion and can't start the planning effort. 
Devil, good points, Ive watched this event evolve and you have really brought some good elements to the design, thank you.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: BaldEagl on March 19, 2016, 09:57:08 AM
If I saw 190A-5's I'm in.

Stukas aren't that bad at turning as long as the ords been dropped.  Until then they're easily killed but IMO they are fun to fly nonetheless.  I'd leave them in and give everyone a free life in a Stuka.

Also did I see the air and GV wars are to be completely separate?  I get that GVers hate BT's but the air/ground interaction on the Eastern Front is a big part of what made it the Eastern Front.  If GVers lives are unlimited I'd open up that conflict otherwise why carry armor piercing rockets on a F-8?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 19, 2016, 12:46:32 PM
A largest proportion of missions and targets for attack planes were supply depots, fuel tanks, train yards, airfields, troop concentrations, critical transportation hubs, and the like.  It is highly realistic for those (or stand-ins for them) to be the targets in this Scenario.

In addition, Scenarios have explored a large range of interaction between major tank battles and aircraft.  Every such experiment from 2007 onward has resulted is so much complaining and grief that it is as enjoyable for me as stomach flu.  I do get it.  Some pilots like attacking tanks, sure, but many tank drivers would rather not participate than have to worry significantly about getting bombed out of a tank battle.

So, for both of these highly practical reasons, this Scenario has a tank battle (where the action is purely a tank battle) and an air battle that involves hitting what were the more-typical targets for air attack.

With regard to F-8's, they don't have rockets in this one as they are present as an earlier-than-historical transition from Stukas which typically didn't carry rockets.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 19, 2016, 12:50:15 PM
If I saw 190A-5's I'm in.

You certainly did!  :aok

JG 54 is there with Otto Kittel and Walter Nowotny in their 190's.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 19, 2016, 03:22:02 PM
Folks, should I have in registration a few spots on each side dedicated to tanks?

That way, each side could sign up a few tank commanders who would kick off the tank battle prior to any pilots being out of lives and to manage people as they join the tank battle.

Or we could keep it more informal and each side can round up a few folks as it sees fit.

Thoughts?

I don't want to make it a large registration for tanks as I want the planes to fill up, especially Il-2's and F-8's, as ground attack is a big part of the battle in this one.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 19, 2016, 06:29:34 PM
Yes, add a hand full of tank slots so we can at least know who may be interested in a dedicated tank role.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 19, 2016, 07:23:40 PM
Yes, add a hand full of tank slots so we can at least know who may be interested in a dedicated tank role.

Roger that.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on March 19, 2016, 08:40:14 PM
(http://palmflying.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Polikarpov-I-16.jpg)

 :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: kilo2 on March 20, 2016, 12:43:52 AM
I can GL one of the 109 units of needed.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Molsman on March 20, 2016, 03:13:15 PM
I will be coming in as a walk on the opening weekend of this Scenario is WW2 weekend in Reading Pa and they have some new planes coming out IE 109,p-38,p-40 and p-47 along with Mossi
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 20, 2016, 05:47:38 PM
You can still register for it if you will be there for three frames.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Molsman on March 20, 2016, 06:35:05 PM
Ok ya twisted my arm  :devil. Where's my flying tank the F8 at  :devil. It will the special weapons add to Kill the Allied CO and his black trench Coat cronies  :joystick:

 :salute
Molsman
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 20, 2016, 09:08:35 PM
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/04/16/00072BAA00000C1D-0-image-a-56_1436022769158.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on March 20, 2016, 09:49:15 PM
Is that .... Sean Penn? Whoooo.  ;)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 20, 2016, 09:58:44 PM
ROC is the one with the furry hat.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Molsman on March 20, 2016, 10:06:20 PM
He was to poor to have the hat he is the one in the back with the rag tagged looking hair
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Easyscor on March 20, 2016, 10:08:32 PM
No, no, you both have it wrong, he's in back alright, but his hair is on fire.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: KCDitto on March 20, 2016, 11:02:37 PM
Those are your rewards when you fly Russian....

You should really fly AXIS, Our rewards program is way better...

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd476/AcesHighDitto/Awards%20Party.jpg)

 :P
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on March 20, 2016, 11:19:49 PM
Brooke, I think you should have a registration slot for the GVs. Also, I think you should be ready to add more fighter units to each side, especially since you reduced the total number of slots in the squads. I think you'll find them filling up fast once registration opens.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 21, 2016, 12:46:34 AM
Roger that, Devil.

I put in some dedicated GV spots, and things are certainly scalable if we have a lot more demand.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 21, 2016, 12:49:37 AM
Version 5 of the writeup is posted:

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201606_BattleOfTheDnieper/rules.htm

Note that we are estimating that we'll be using AH3 for this event.  If so, cities look like this:

(http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201606_BattleOfTheDnieper/city.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 21, 2016, 12:52:55 AM
Those are your rewards when you fly Russian....

You should really fly AXIS, Our rewards program is way better...

 :P

Soviet women look like that, too, except that they are holding Mosin-Nagants instead of mugs of beer.  ;)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Crash Orange on March 21, 2016, 02:46:27 AM
What are those silly women doing putting beer in standard size VVS vodka mugs?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: KCDitto on March 21, 2016, 11:49:28 PM
YUP  oh so SEXY

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd476/AcesHighDitto/tumblr_nei01ctY4b1tdkouzo1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on March 21, 2016, 11:59:25 PM
YUP  oh so SEXY

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd476/AcesHighDitto/tumblr_nei01ctY4b1tdkouzo1_500.jpg)

(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/Panzerfaust.jpg~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/Panzerfaust.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 22, 2016, 12:10:41 AM
Not all of them can look as good in lingerie as you do, Ditto, but let's try some more.

A fighter pilot
(http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/images/meklin_01_250.jpg)

An Il-2 gunner
(http://www.rathbonemuseum.com/USSR/RAFFemPilot/IL2Gunner.jpg)

A sniper
(http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Shanina-e1394306849967.jpg)



Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 22, 2016, 11:51:47 AM
Can you get forums opened, I'd like to start organizing some literature, history, have a place to talk to the team about recruiting and propaganda.
Really want to build a larger turnout.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 22, 2016, 12:53:51 PM
Roger that.  I will put in the request.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Molsman on March 22, 2016, 03:45:44 PM
Oh please the Propaganda wars have officially started
Salute to the Allied Drama Queens  :devil
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 22, 2016, 04:36:17 PM
Oh please the Propaganda

Well, if you insist.

(http://www.allworldwars.com/image/011/Poster105.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: BFOOT1 on March 22, 2016, 08:31:55 PM
Oh please the Propaganda wars have officially started
Salute to the Allied Drama Queens  :devil
If da forums are open could I be added to da axis side so I can get to know my fellow Experten  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 22, 2016, 11:41:39 PM
Forums are already requested.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: bangsbox on March 23, 2016, 02:53:45 PM
what squad is Dantoo leading/flying in? I loved flying for him in Southern Conquest  :salute
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Arlo on March 23, 2016, 02:54:31 PM
what squad is Dantoo leading/flying in? I loved flying for him in Southern Conquest  :salute

It's the accent, isn't it?  :lol
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 24, 2016, 12:06:05 AM
It's the accent, isn't it?  :lol

Crikey!
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: bangsbox on March 28, 2016, 10:48:55 AM
It's the accent, isn't it?  :lol

was more the polite diplomatic correction of unwanted actions that sold me. I laughed my butt off a few times. Not to mention the professional execution of squad assigned tasks. 
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 29, 2016, 01:28:50 AM
Version 6 of the writeup is posted:

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201606_BattleOfTheDnieper/rules.htm

v6, 3/28/2016
-- Clarified that T-34's are T-34/76's.
-- Added maps from new blksea terrain.
-- Added city names.
-- Changed the tank bases.
-- Emphasize that a few objects have downtime of 1 minute.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: waystin2 on March 29, 2016, 01:00:05 PM
The Pigs have found a home with the VVS.  Look for us in Yak-7B's.  See you all up there!

 :salute

Way
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 29, 2016, 04:35:36 PM
Sweet!  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on March 29, 2016, 08:35:22 PM
Very happy to have the Pigs with us. 

We'll keep you wrapped up tight and comfy
(http://new1.fjcdn.com/pictures/Pig+in+a+blanket_becda2_4851739.jpg)

Because the Evil Empire is going to want to go in a completely different direction with that

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/85/a2/1a/85a21a4bbd57f3f3eab3433bed6dacd6.jpg)

Your comrades will keep the evil Subway sammich maker from getting you.

Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: waystin2 on March 30, 2016, 08:51:49 AM
Very happy to have the Pigs with us. 

We'll keep you wrapped up tight and comfy
(http://new1.fjcdn.com/pictures/Pig+in+a+blanket_becda2_4851739.jpg)

Because the Evil Empire is going to want to go in a completely different direction with that

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/85/a2/1a/85a21a4bbd57f3f3eab3433bed6dacd6.jpg)

Your comrades will keep the evil Subway sammich maker from getting you.
:rofl :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on March 31, 2016, 11:44:38 PM
Version 7 of the writeup is posted:

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201606_BattleOfTheDnieper/rules.htm

v7, 3/31/2016
-- Changed location of tank battle and spawn points based on battle test.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: KCDitto on April 05, 2016, 12:44:30 PM
Just to clarify,

You also changed that ATTACK groups get .6 points for ANY target destroyed, not SPECIFIC targets destroyed?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on April 05, 2016, 04:34:40 PM
Yep.  The attack groups get 0.6 points per object destroyed.

Specifically, I will look in the log at summary for the groups named "SG 2" and "7 GShAP", take the number listed for "objects destroyed" by those groups, and multiply by 0.6.  (Except for any objects destroyed by tanks, which should be zero.)

I will look at the summary for the groups named "KG 3" and "35 GBAP", take the number listed for "objects destroyed" by those groups, and multiply by 0.2.  (Except for any objects destroyed by tanks, which should be zero.)

Objects destroyed by pilots in other named groups, regardless of what the pilot is flying, will not count for points.

So, it is important to get your attack and bomber pilots into the correct squad names.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: KCDitto on April 05, 2016, 07:21:45 PM
 :aok

 :salute
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on April 09, 2016, 12:17:27 AM
Version 8 of the writeup is posted:

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201606_BattleOfTheDnieper/rules.htm

v8 is same as v7 plus a disclaimer regarding AH3 not being out yet (which could require future changes).

I do not plan any more changes to the rules unless needed as a result of changes in AH3.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 20, 2016, 06:19:47 PM
Now that we have 3 frames under our belts, there are some folks who feel that the design is unbalanced in favor of the VVS, centered mainly on the qualities of the Tu-2.  In summary, my thought is that it is decently balanced, with the fighter set being about equal, the Tu-2 being better than the Ju 88, and the 190F being much better than the Il-2.

More details follow.

The Tu-2 is indeed an excellent bomber.  But it is the only Soviet bomber in the game, was in main-stream use by late 1943 (being introduced into combat in 1942), and was used in significantly larger numbers by the Soviets than any other bomber we have in the game (such as the B-25).  If we used only historical aircraft in this scenario, there would be fewer Tu-2's and more Pe-2's (which are actually faster than Tu-2's, so more Pe-2's wouldn't change that dynamic); and there would be Stukas and no 190F's.  There is no Pe-2 in the game, though; and I don't think even I would want to fly Stukas for 4 frames.

Using the Tu-2 in this scenario is perhaps like using the Ju 88 in Battle of Britain before we got the He 111.  The real BoB didn't have all Ju 88's -- it had He 111's and Do's as well, and there was much complaining about the Ju 88 being way too fast and powerful to be the only bomber represented.  But once we did get the He 111, it turned out that it did about as well as the Ju 88.  Also, in the case of Coral Sea, we use the TBM as the TBD, which folks have felt is much too powerful compared to the TBD.  But the B5N in Coral Sea does about as well as the TBM.

At any rate, the balance of a scenario design is about how the whole plane set matches up.  The fighter set, in my opinion, is about even, where I put the La-5 as the best (slightly), but the German planes better in a mix than the Yak's and P-39's (which aren't bad -- just not quite as good).  I also think that the fighter set is decently balanced because kills were pretty even in frames 1 and 2, when sides had closer to even numbers.  The Tu-2 is better than the Ju 88; and the 190F is significantly better than the Il-2.  This based on my flying of La-5's, 190A-5's, 109G's, and *lots* of Ju 88's in scenarios, as well as significant P-39, Il-2, and Yak-7b in the MA.  So, overall in my opinion, a wash.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 21, 2016, 12:03:11 AM
At the alts we are using, Tu-2's are about 10 mph slower than Boston III's.  No one has complained about Bostons.

Bf 109G-6's are faster than Tu-2's by the same amount in this scenario that Spit I's are faster than Ju 88's in BoB.  There were the same complaints in BoB about the Ju 88 that we have here about the Tu-2.  Yet BoB is proven historically to be well balanced, even when we had only Ju 88's and even when the RAF has a substantial number of much-slower Hurr I's.  In this scenario, the LW has nothing like the issue of Hurri I vs. Ju 88.  It's as if the RAF had all Spitfires.

The historical mix in this scenario would have Stukas for the LW and no 190F's, and a lot of Pe-2's for the Soviets, but the Pe-2 is actually faster than the Tu-2.

For playability, the LW has 190F's instead of Stukas.  That is a substantial step up in LW plane set.

The mix is:  fighters vs. fighters are about a wash; the Tu-2 is better than the Ju 88; and the 190F is better than the Il-2.  This is roughly even overall.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Zimme83 on June 21, 2016, 01:41:01 AM
First frames were reasonably even when the numbers were matched. But it seems like VVS have had a better command structure and coordination. in frame 1 LW had 2 109 squads flying in a race track for 30 mins while the entire VVS were almost uncontested over a LW base.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LCADolby on June 21, 2016, 07:37:56 AM
Zimme you backed out and quit, because you expected a MA style free for all melee. If it wasn't for closed fields because we were sorting out walkons you would have taken off alone.

Brooke you are missing points I have made in another thread. :old:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Zimme83 on June 21, 2016, 07:54:44 AM
I've been in several scenarios and I know how they work, i have no problem in flying without seeing action - if there is a plan. But we waited 30 mins for a 109 squad in order to do a fighter sweep - then out of the blue the ju-88:s showed up and it became a bomber escort sortie. So obviously there was very little coordination.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LCADolby on June 21, 2016, 09:07:38 AM
Zimme, commanders have to change to what the situation is telling them.
Plans are only good up to the point of contact, this goes for every battle.
You're so ADD that 15min seems like 30mins to you, your commanders are concentrating on each group and the enemy, coordinating to find a solution to the situation as fast as possible. Every Scenario I have been in order changes have happened
As for you not seeing action, I believe I./JG52 squads kills and deaths would suggest there has been a tremendous amount of action. Were you off mission in the frame, leaving your squadron CO and the ones following their orders to themselves?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Zimme83 on June 21, 2016, 09:25:34 AM
No i left, a scenario is not a one man show, I would not up and run my own show.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 21, 2016, 01:40:18 PM
Brooke you are missing points I have made in another thread. :old:

I'll go back and look for things I missed responding to.  This week is unusually packed, so it might take me some days.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 21, 2016, 01:40:49 PM
Zimme, come back in for frame 4.

We are all doing our best to make it GLORIOUS!  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 21, 2016, 02:03:14 PM
Ya I already told Zimme he could fly with us if he wanted to :)  No need to sit it out. 
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LCADolby on June 21, 2016, 02:55:18 PM
So now we are side switching to skew the numbers even more so. You guys  :huh
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Zimme83 on June 21, 2016, 02:58:53 PM
So now we are side switching to skew the numbers even more so. You guys  :huh

Well... Since ive left the LW side I assume that i can do whatever I want, including fly for the VVS. But you dont have to worry, i will most likely not be able to attend in frame 4.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 21, 2016, 03:30:43 PM
Dolby knock it off, you are getting tiring.  First you say that All Players know the event is lopsided, and you are not correct and don't speak for all players.  Then you post in a forum specifically trying to figure out why the Axis isn't showing up and in here you berate a player who tried to explain it to you, that left, not for a thing I did, but for what your team did.
Now you are complaining because a player you drove away and still wants to enjoy the event may fly over on the other side.
You know what, this is getting sad so let me explain it to YOU.

You are not paying attention to what is important.
Your team is going to get your last frame score changed DOWN, why?  Your guys hit City Targets, not Town at 44. Even Tunes!  You guys had a Non Uniform player kill me. I didn't care, it didn't matter, but you can't even get your own crap sorted out and you are bellyaching about drivel so now I'm going to bring it up and point it out and in Fairness, fix YOUR screw ups.
Shut up and fix your own problems that need to be solved.

tunes3
14:26:43 Departed from Field #53 in a Ju 88A-4
14:52:59 Was shot down by Tikto (exploded).
15:03:45 Departed from Field #9 in a Ju 88A-4
15:51:43 Was shot down by Jakke (crashed).
16:04:17 Departed from Field #52 in a Ju 88A-4
16:27:43 Destroyed a field gun at base #44
16:27:43 Destroyed a vehicle hangar at base #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:56 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:56 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:56 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a field gun at base #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:59 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:59 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:59 Destroyed a city building at city #44

16:51:11 Arrived Safely at Field #52
16:51:19 Departed from Field #52 in a Ju 88A-4
17:06:58 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:06:58 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:06:58 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:06:58 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:06:58 Destroyed a field gun at base #64
17:07:00 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:07:00 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:22:52 Arrived Safely at Field #52

Just play and put a lid on it.  I didn't care, it didn't matter, it wasn't worth it, but you just won't get off it. 
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 21, 2016, 03:57:33 PM
You may very well be right that there is a balance issue, but frankly it is falling deaf ears simply because you are blaming everything wrong on your side on the setups perceived imbalance. Take some responsibility. Own up to something, we are not ahead simply because the event conditions are not your perfect storm conditions.  Man up and at least give credit where it's due, we did well in frame 1, you did well in frame 2 (quiet as crickets about the setup conditions for some unknown reason) and now just cannot say frame 3 we had anything to do with the success.  It cannot possibly be your communication system, it cannot possibly be your plans, it cannot possibly be anything other than design, it's inconceivable that the all powerful Axis Team could lose.  You really need to ask yourself, in all honesty, if you were ahead and I was barking this tripe, what would you be telling me?  My God man, an Axis Player tried to tell you what he thought was wrong and you ripped him for it.  Now, of course, again, I'm "stealing" your players.  He isn't yours, he left, I didn't take him.  You lost him long before today.  Please, again, in your Clear Plain English, what exactly did I do to cause your player to leave you?  You just don't have it in you to stop, do you?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LCADolby on June 21, 2016, 05:31:46 PM
Dolby knock it off, you are getting tiring.  First you say that All Players know the event is lopsided, and you are not correct and don't speak for all players.  Then you post in a forum specifically trying to figure out why the Axis isn't showing up and in here you berate a player who tried to explain it to you, that left, not for a thing I did, but for what your team did.
Now you are complaining because a player you drove away and still wants to enjoy the event may fly over on the other side.
You know what, this is getting sad so let me explain it to YOU.

You are not paying attention to what is important.
Your team is going to get your last frame score changed DOWN, why?  Your guys hit City Targets, not Town at 44. Even Tunes!  You guys had a Non Uniform player kill me. I didn't care, it didn't matter, but you can't even get your own crap sorted out and you are bellyaching about drivel so now I'm going to bring it up and point it out and in Fairness, fix YOUR screw ups.
Shut up and fix your own problems that need to be solved.
Just play and put a lid on it.  I didn't care, it didn't matter, it wasn't worth it, but you just won't get off it.

It is lopsided and I have pointed out why, claiming I am wrong about that is nonsensical. This scenario first put a lid on the altitude to get fights to stay low in VVS territory. False claims about the aircraft being so close are frankly laughable; The bombers are grossly mismatched, the Ju88. The IL2 is better than I have read claimed here, I can't believe how played down Russia's most famous and formidable foe Sturmovik is being marginalised to fit the notion its monumentally worse than a 190F8 and that fixes everything. The job they are to do is object killing, and if I wanted the path of least resistance I'd choose an IL2 over the 190F8 for the job, especially in squadron strength.

That player didn't express anything accurate and exaggerated greatly. He wasn't driven away by myself or the changing of orders, he was driven away by his attention deficit. We were still waiting to go, getting people in uniform and walk-ons in squads and his impatience was already evident. Both you and I know that it is grossly misplaced to say I or axis orders drove him out in any shape or form.

Axis are not getting the pilots and of course I am right in expressing concern about side switching after a frame that was a piss take for fair numbers and of someone that has the frame and event he left a "waste of time". Are you going for another rout of a frame to reaffirm my posts.

As for uniform, if you assailant was a walk-on for a 190A5, he will have been invited to the correct squad, unless he was doing as he pleased. We the commanders did everything humanly possible to get this right, I personally spammed squad invites to every single pilot I sae without uniform in the closing stages prior to launch. I myself had a walkon in my own squad cause issue, in which he changed aircraft after a flight without any warning or conversation. Staying on vox channel but going off with the group of aircraft type he wanted to fly but was not assigned. We also have had another pilot consistently ignore everything and go do his thing to the point his unfamiliar name is not etched in my mind. This is not an isolated incident that has only ever happened in this scenario am I right, so this is not something so easily controlled as my screw up.

I paid attention to what is important of that you can be completely assured of. Otherwise I would have not made so many vehement postings.

As for your follow on post, "deaf ears" as expected. It's always been a pointless exercise, and that's probably another one to put as a reason for low attendance.

Here is me taking responsibility; Giving 110% effort every frame. Listening and carrying out my orders as ordered by my CO, and questioning and proposing changes as required. Getting my pilots in uniform, vox, clear orders, repeating when necessary. Leading by example above all else. Credit where it is due, thanks for taking part. As for frame 2 and silence, have you considered our utter shock and surprise at the result?

Again you go on about winning and losing, I again repeat that we want a close turn encounter, historical accuracy and most of all good gameplay. I should not be having to be repeating that to you again and again. Are you so obsessed with winning and losing so much it is even clouding the very words I have written and you are replacing them in your mind?

If I was ahead, what a thing to suggest, I am ahead, my kill rate is exceptional as Bruv pointed out in a PM to me. But in your shoes with the results, I'd be avoiding posting anything not posted directly at me.

You "" around the word stealing, I can't find that word in my text to quote it but I hope now he is on the path of least resistance, he will be happy. I sure hope he can concentrate for more than an hour this time.
And no, I don't stop until things are set straight. If you want me to stop don't post to me.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 21, 2016, 06:38:01 PM
Quote
This scenario first put a lid on the altitude to get fights to stay low in VVS territory.
Oh this is pure gold  :rofl

Your side accused us of cheating in an irrelevant practice frame by breaking a non existent alt cap, we were up at just over 20k, by as little as a few hundred feet but just slightly over your guys and you guys went nuts!  We were up at your peak performance area, not ours, and we were roasted for not flying historically!  You guys were talking up the different ways to make sure we stayed lower.  This one literally had me laughing out loud. 

This is fun, we'll have to do this again sometime
Quote
If I was ahead, what a thing to suggest, I am ahead
<---- Hmm, seems like you may be a little fixated on winning. 
Quote
But in your shoes with the results, I'd be avoiding posting anything not posted directly at me.
  You'd avoid posting in "my" shoes?  My results?  You mean the fact that as I'm trying to pay attention to the entire arena I am getting shot down?  My results.  Look around, My results is "OUR" team is doing just fine, glad "YOU" are doing well.   

Quote
As for your follow on post, "deaf ears" as expected. It's always been a pointless exercise, and that's probably another one to put as a reason for low attendance.
So now that fact that I don't agree with you, deaf ears and all, is another reason for low attendance?  What on earth are you thinking?  I didn't design this event, what the hell does it matter to you if I think you are missing the point?  Your guys aren't showing up because the mean old ROC doesn't agree with Dolby? You give me far too much credit  :rofl 

Relax bud, it's a game, you're trying to hard.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LCADolby on June 21, 2016, 07:11:09 PM
You have misunderstood quite a lot of my post ROC.

When we thought it was a cap, of course we complained, I had instructed my squad not to go above and meet the merge of the enemy over the cap. I didn't mention anything about history only an alt cap/rule break, and that exploit the VVS made on it's way back down the wind. Peak performance for luft is not 20k, there are graphs in AH you might want to consult.

No, not fixated on winning the frame or the event, my performance as an individual; to inspire my squad, to give hope. Having you turn that around is amusing, but I can see how you can misunderstand.

Yes I would avoid posting in your shoes. Not because of your particular performance, but because it would draw less attention to the set up balance, and other things I have mentioned.

ROC your last paragraph I read it as that you are essentially just trolling now. You and Brooke will be on opposing sides for the next one right ;)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 21, 2016, 08:07:22 PM
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ROC your last paragraph I read it as that you are essentially just trolling now.
I thought it would take you another full day to get here  :D  But Im not trolling now, been pretty much trolling you for a while now.  :cheers:
Of course I know there are issues, every set up has an intention and then reality hits.  It's an impossible problem to solve as players will always do and see things the people designing an event didn't see.  But the people that do this are always trying to improve them.  There isn't anything intentionally one sided, it's a real effort to do things as balanced as they see it.

And as for my desire to win?  You bet your butt I want my team to win  :salute

Should have seen that coming from the start, I'm your opposition CO, it's my job to twist you and distract you :devil  This is a conversation for after the event, absolutely.  And yes indeed, Brooke and I will fly on opposite sides next time, he wasn't part of any strategy here, no input at all on the mission other than does he understand his orders.  But I can see the concern, even though I am not on the team, I have been, in top capacities for a long time, I do get it.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 21, 2016, 10:09:38 PM
So, another thought brought up is the altitude cap.

As for alt cap, that is based also on a desire for realism.  I want the style of fighting to be like what I've read about in books about Eastern Front air combat.  It is not realistic for Eastern Front fights to commonly be at 38k (which happens in scenarios with no alt cap, even Malta).  There are lots of reasons Eastern Front fights were typically not that high, and some of those reasons, I can't replicate in the arena, so I have to pick some other way to give the same effect, just as a downwind alt cap.  I can't just throw in thick clouds above a certain altitude because all planes in AH have in-cockpit GPS, and so they can use clouds in ways that are highly unrealistic.  (One intriguing way that will bear future experimentation is just how visibility works in AH3, where unlike in AH2 you can have real problems seeing aircraft against the ground when you are up too high -- maybe it means we won't need alt caps anymore.)

So, what alt to pick then?  I bought five Kindle books on Eastern European aerial combat that I could search electronically, with first-hand accounts from Eastern Front pilots both German and Soviet, and spent the time to search all of them for every reference to altitude of bombing and fighter combat.  What I found was a very large number of references to low-altitude action.  For specific numbers, I found the vast majority of references to combats from the deck on up to about 15k or so and only one reference to a fight higher (Guther Rall flying at 19,000 ft, spotting a Russian recon plane at 26,000 ft, and climbing up to shoot it).  So, I figured 19k would be a good pick, but the downwind works on 2k alt boundaries, so it would need to be 18k or 20k, not 19k.  I picked 20k as a round number.  I doubt picking 18k or 22k would change the dynamics of the fighting much, however.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Easyscor on June 21, 2016, 10:13:39 PM
(from a curious outsider observer)

Every event designer wants to fly his design. The moment he does, rightfully or not, he discredits his concept and invites criticism.

There are ways to solve this issue but they haven't been used since around 2003.

ROC, you might remember, the events were planed well in advance and the side command staffs were required to participate in the final review and most importantly, required to sign off on the rules and balance.

When was the last time the designers here did that? This is an observation, not a criticism of any one individual unless you want to spread it around amoung the past and present Scenario team members.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 21, 2016, 10:54:01 PM
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When was the last time the designers here did that?
That would be about the last time we got a CO to step up long before the last minute. 

Quote
Every event designer wants to fly his design. The moment he does, rightfully or not, he discredits his concept and invites criticism.
It's wrong to hold Brooke or anyone else accountable because Fencer was biased in his designs.  He's not here.  Brooke is about a biased as a sock.

Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 21, 2016, 10:55:26 PM
We generally lack the ability to get command teams much in advance, but it's a good idea when we are fortunate enough to get them enough in advance.

Just to be clear on the things I've been addressing here, though, the majority of it is about Tu-2's speed.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 21, 2016, 10:57:09 PM
Brooke is about a biased as a sock.

(http://www.socky.com/sotto3.jpg)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 21, 2016, 10:58:14 PM
My idea of a perfect scenario results in a draw.  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 21, 2016, 11:02:16 PM
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My idea of a perfect scenario results in a draw.

Hippie  :neener:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 21, 2016, 11:27:15 PM
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Easyscor on June 22, 2016, 01:25:35 AM
ROFL @ Brooke's post, the sock.  :rock

I agree Brooke, the best event starts out with a neutral design for a draw.

I disagree however with the statement that COs only step up at the last minute. A good design or interesting segment of the war will draw your COs. That won't happen with a replay of an old and tired rehashed event imho. Jazz is nice but I (I don't dare say "we" in here.) like a constant flow of NEW music.

@ ROC - Hippie?

Okay, but by that I qualify as a hippie too. so  :P

Secondly
Quote
When was the last time the designers here did that? This is an observation, not a criticism of any one individual unless you want to spread it around among the past and present Scenario team members.

I think I said what I meant. Outside review is always welcome to me. No, it may not change anything I do, but both supportive and negative comments have value. Someone may reveal a terrible understanding of the game's dynamic and the limits of our tools, but they might also stumble upon something I haven't considered or make me think along a new tangent.

I always expect criticism and don't usually ask for opinions because I know they'll be coming if I mess up a design. That's no problem for me. As I recall, the guy who handled my "training" stressed such composure over and over again.  :rofl

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 22, 2016, 02:04:08 AM
I disagree however with the statement that COs only step up at the last minute.

Assistance at getting good CO's early will be great.

Quote
A good design or interesting segment of the war will draw your COs. That won't happen with a replay of an old and tired rehashed event imho. Jazz is nice but I (I don't dare say "we" in here.) like a constant flow of NEW music.

The majority of scenarios are new designs.  When they get rerun, it is usually because of popular demand (like Battle of Britain and DGS, and its various reruns).

At any rate, this scenario was both a new design and the winner of a popular vote on what the theater should be.

Next scenario will have that, too:  people will get a list of possibilities and get to vote on which one they want.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 22, 2016, 03:15:53 AM
The IL2 is better than I have read claimed here, I can't believe how played down Russia's most famous and formidable foe Sturmovik is being marginalised to fit the notion its monumentally worse than a 190F8 and that fixes everything. The job they are to do is object killing, and if I wanted the path of least resistance I'd choose an IL2 over the 190F8 for the job, especially in squadron strength.

I've flown lots of scenario missions in Il-2's and scenario missions in jabo 190A's (quite similar to 190F's) and have been a GL of groups of both types.  The 190 is vastly superior to the Il-2.  In fact, in this scenario, you can see that by actual testing and results.

In this scenario, the 190F compared to the Il-2:
-- can kill as many or more objects (you can test this offline)
-- can kill more objects in the presence of enemy fighters before dying
-- is more than 100 mph faster
-- has a vastly better roll rate
-- climbs more than 1000 fpm faster
-- has 67% more cannon rounds

The Il-2 in AH is a little sturdier than the 190F, but not enormously so.  It is quite readily shot down by the likes of 109G's, let alone 190's, as you can see from my films of getting shot down.

If you were my CO and had the choice of the two types, as an experienced ground-attack group leader who has lead groups of both types, I would strongly advise you to take the jabo 190's.  :aok
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 22, 2016, 12:24:21 PM
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I disagree however with the statement that COs only step up at the last minute.
Well, as one who has been on the side trying to recruit CO's early for years, you are disagreeing with reality, I am not talking about subjective guessing, COs have NOT come to the table early for years.  This has nothing to do with why they haven't, it's simply a fact that they haven't.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Zoney on June 22, 2016, 01:03:33 PM
Well, as one who has been on the side trying to recruit CO's early for years, you are disagreeing with reality, I am not talking about subjective guessing, COs have NOT come to the table early for years.  This has nothing to do with why they haven't, it's simply a fact that they haven't.

Individual squad CO's or the CO of the side?
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 22, 2016, 01:10:03 PM
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Individual squad CO's or the CO of the side?
Side CO's, Group Leaders are plentiful, and we generally have far more capable leaders than we have slots for, it's an amazing thing, getting a side CO is not an easy task.
We've got so many great group leaders that when one can't make it, we have several on stand by to fill in. 
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Easyscor on June 22, 2016, 02:00:11 PM
Side CO's, Group Leaders are plentiful, and we generally have far more capable leaders than we have slots for, it's an amazing thing, getting a side CO is not an easy task.
We've got so many great group leaders that when one can't make it, we have several on stand by to fill in.

I think you might have an answer in that statement. Fill the GL slots first making it less intimidating for a CO to step up?

Mind if I use that?  :lol
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: ROC on June 22, 2016, 02:14:35 PM
In a Snapshot or something, Yes, that's one approach, but to prefill a teams leadership? Why have a CO?  Nono, I wouldn't bother taking on a team that I wasn't able to build.  The GLs post early and often that they want it, there were GLs offering to lead long before I even considered coming back and taking the role.
It's a good idea for a prebuilt event where the orders are built into the design perhaps. 
On the other hand, it might actually attract a CO, having all of the hard work done for him,and taking a less intimidating role, but then if he goes up against a solid CO he's dog meat.  You don't design a role like CO so leadership is not intimidating, obstacles should (used to) bring out the leaders.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Guppy35 on June 22, 2016, 07:40:44 PM
That would be about the last time we got a CO to step up long before the last minute. 
It's wrong to hold Brooke or anyone else accountable because Fencer was biased in his designs.  He's not here.  Brooke is about a biased as a sock.

The only bias I've ever seen is trying to slant it in the direction of those most apt to whine in hopes of avoiding it.  Having fallen prey to that and watching what had been my dream scenario go south by trying to appease that crowd, it became a confirmation to me that you will never please everyone

ROC having worked with Fencer on those designs and watched him try and please those most likely to whine, I think it unfair to call his designs biased unless you mean in trying to keep the whining contingent quiet
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: puller on June 24, 2016, 12:26:21 AM
I volunteer to C.O the Luftwaffe side of the upcoming 12hr BOB scenario....

There....does that help expedite the process...I will also help with setup so there is no problems of unfair advantage over the Allies

Well it will actually be unfair for the Allies because I would be your opposing C.O.

I'll put together 109 squadrons of the likes not seen before in a scenario... 109 squads that a squadron of 10 Bruvs couldn't handle...

The Epic 12hr BOB....An Aces High Scenario
 :salute
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 24, 2016, 01:50:40 AM
I volunteer to C.O the Luftwaffe side of the upcoming 12hr BOB scenario....

There....does that help expedite the process...I will also help with setup so there is no problems of unfair advantage over the Allies

Well it will actually be unfair for the Allies because I would be your opposing C.O.

I'll put together 109 squadrons of the likes not seen before in a scenario... 109 squads that a squadron of 10 Bruvs couldn't handle...

The Epic 12hr BOB....An Aces High Scenario
 :salute

 :aok

The only thing is that we will put up what is the next scenario and format to a vote -- but it could very well be 12-hour BoB.  That choice is quite popular.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LCADolby on June 24, 2016, 07:22:40 AM
I volunteer to C.O the Luftwaffe side of the upcoming 12hr BOB scenario....

You just took my job!  :old:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: puller on June 24, 2016, 08:37:13 AM
You just took my job!  :old:

 :cheers:

I've got a great position for you...

(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlzhDlq_SyMFbbgbxKaB6fes1PBPfLmFUC0C-1dSvOgE1z_NHkBEq6i48)

It's not a storch...but it's the next best thing... :neener:
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LCADolby on June 24, 2016, 09:52:31 AM
(http://cdn3.whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Hot-Fuzz.gif)
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 24, 2016, 08:52:29 PM
You just took my job!  :old:

 :cheers:

There are two sides.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: LCADolby on June 25, 2016, 12:31:30 PM
There are two sides.

But the 109E is purdy!
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: wil3ur on June 25, 2016, 12:37:51 PM
I still say we do a winter war, finns versus russians... T34 versus Hetzer.  To make the air war a bit more interesting, I say use the 109E instead of the G Models, maybe a squadron or two of G14s and JU87s versus I16's and maybe a squad or two of LA5's or Yak7s w/ something like an SBD to act as the russian close air support bomber.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 25, 2016, 12:45:41 PM
But the 109E is purdy!

That it is.  I like the yellow-nose ones.  We are fortunate to have one in our local museum:

(http://www.passion-aviation.qc.ca/images/musflight08/bf109e3_3.jpg)

Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on June 25, 2016, 01:14:32 PM
Brooke, in case you did not know, that "Emil" is a G-6 conversion. It looks good to the untrained eye, but if you know your 109's it really is a poor representation of a true Emil.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: wil3ur on June 25, 2016, 01:17:26 PM
the radiator and elevator struts look pretty E to me. :P
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Devil 505 on June 25, 2016, 01:43:34 PM
The tail struts were bolted on. The only modification to the wings was adding a Mg-FF barrel (but not the bulge for the magazine under the wing) and the removal of the rounded wing tips and a given a squared fairing to appear like an Emil. But the wings of Emil's (and earlier 109's) are the same length as the Friedrich (and later 109's). The radiators are unchanged from their G-6 configuration and Brooke's picture shows the 3-piece flap in the closed position, not the Emil's single piece flap.. Modifications were made to the nose to look like an Emil, with varying degrees of accuracy in the fabricated parts. The worst piece is the prop spinner which is too long. The fabrication of the chin oil cooler is well done though. Also worth noting, the canopy is the thick framed type introduced with the Gustav.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 25, 2016, 06:33:43 PM
Brooke, in case you did not know, that "Emil" is a G-6 conversion. It looks good to the untrained eye, but if you know your 109's it really is a poor representation of a true Emil.

I don't know the types well enough to spot any of that.

I got the background from their website just now, though, in case of any interest:

"In 1972, Douglas Champlin began looking for a restorable Bf 109 for his collection. After several fruitless searches, he acquired a Spanish-built Hispano HA 1112 and reconfigured it as closely as possible to the original. Locating a Daimler-Benz DB 601 engine and associated cowling proved impossible, so a DB 605 was substituted.

Modification work was undertaken by Art Williams in Germany. This included not only the engine change, but also redesign of the wingtips and other related items.

The Champlin Collection Bf 109 was manufactured in Germany during 1942 or 1943. It is thought to be one of the original batch of twenty-five aircraft supplied to Spain. All instrumentation is German, and of the identifiable Spanish-manufactured parts, many appear to be identical to the original German versions.

Appropriate to the aircraft's history, the cowling and engine are most likely from Bf 109E J392, the initial Dornier-Swiss-built aircraft delivered in 1945. The Champlin Collection Bf 109 has appeared in several movies, including Patton and Battle of Britain."
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: KCDitto on June 25, 2016, 08:31:42 PM
That plane used to be in MESA AZ. I have a pic of me standing next to it somewhere. They had a P-47 right next to it to show the size difference.
Title: Re: Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario
Post by: Brooke on June 26, 2016, 02:25:54 AM
With the final results of Battle of the Dnieper, we can look at actual results and statistics to see how well or poorly balanced this scenario was.

VVS won two frames and LW won two frames, but that is a coarse measurement.  We can look at finer details of balance.

VVS scored an average of 292 pts per frame with std deviation of 30.  LW scored an average or 270 with std. dev. of 47.  These are within one standard deviation of each other.

Also, you can look at points generated per player for each side, to take into account the effect of different numbers of players frame to frame and side to side.  In that case, VVS had an average of 7.20 pts/player with std. dev. of 0.90; and LW had an average of 6.89 pts/player with std. dev. of 1.17.  These numbers are 1/3rd of a standard deviation apart.

Thus, actual statistics suggest that this scenario is reasonably balanced, regardless of any personal feelings about various aircraft capabilities.