General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GScholz on March 21, 2016, 02:37:38 PM
Title: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 21, 2016, 02:37:38 PM
60 million people on the move... Australia's 60 minutes have made an episode on the migrant crisis in Europe. Perhaps the most independent media report available to date.
https://vimeo.com/159671084
Norway's Prime Minister has already said that if Sweden collapses we will close our borders completely. And I have it on good authority that at least one army unit have been given orders to make preliminary preparations to defend the border.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Serenity on March 21, 2016, 03:06:36 PM
60 million people on the move... Australia's 60 minutes have made an episode on the migrant crisis in Europe. Perhaps the most independent media report available to date.
https://vimeo.com/159671084
Norway's Prime Minister has already said that if Sweden collapses we will close our borders completely. And I have it on good authority that at least one army unit have been given orders to make preliminary preparations to defend the border.
And yet when America talks of tougher borders, we're called racists...
I feel for you Scholz. It's not a fun place to be right now I imagine, and I hope your leadership can rectify things before they pass the point of no return.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 21, 2016, 03:23:00 PM
And yet when America talks of tougher borders, we're called racists...
We have a word for that over here which basically translates to "the tyranny of goodness". In my country we have largely been able to defeat this tyranny in public debates and the media, but in Sweden almost everything negative about the influx of immigrants is suppressed.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Brooke on March 21, 2016, 06:10:27 PM
I feel sad for our times. The Gothi, Franci, Anglii, Saxones, Alemmani, Arverni, Romans, Britanni, Vikings, etc. fought battles to the death for the land, but their descendants fall all over themselves in eagerness to give it away to outside hordes.
It's like the elves of Middle Earth, who had mighty ancestors, yet lost all their vitality, succumbed to apathy, and drifted off into oblivion.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Arlo on March 21, 2016, 06:14:00 PM
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Arlo on March 21, 2016, 07:36:22 PM
The Western Hemisphere would be vastly different if it wasn't for immigrants. The native population would back this. And European history from the 16th century on would be quite different if they didn't ship off their tired, poor and huddled masses, as well. Everyone has descendants (until we don't).
What is it, three minutes til?
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 21, 2016, 07:54:36 PM
A low to moderate immigration is a healthy thing, both culturally and genetically. However when the immigration pressure is so high that you have cities like London, Paris, Amsterdam and many others where immigrants account for more than 30% of the population you end up with cultural shock, segregation and violence.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Arlo on March 21, 2016, 07:59:33 PM
-
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Chalenge on March 21, 2016, 08:20:10 PM
:furious
What do you call someone that comes to your country, seizes land, claims ownership, denies you the ability to pass through that land, and then attacks everything about your society?
Answer: Invaders
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: puller on March 21, 2016, 09:01:23 PM
:rofl :rofl Not gonna end well...IN....post count +1
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Ripsnort on March 21, 2016, 09:10:46 PM
I think we can save this thread without dragging into the political black hole called "Skuzzy NK".
I have a question G, do you think a wall, or stricter borders, etc, would alleviate the situation?
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Brooke on March 21, 2016, 09:53:03 PM
The Western Hemisphere would be vastly different if it wasn't for immigrants.
Of course.
There is an amount of immigration and a way of doing it that is marvelous and beneficial. And there is an amount of doing it and a way of doing it that is a horrible disaster.
Some water, taken into the stomach, is necessary for human life. Too much water, taken in through the lungs, gives an opposite result.
The details here matter.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 21, 2016, 10:02:19 PM
I think we can save this thread without dragging into the political black hole called "Skuzzy NK".
I have a question G, do you think a wall, or stricter borders, etc, would alleviate the situation?
It depends on a lot of factors, but some of the poorer European countries that are closer the the Middle East have taken actions to that effect. In a matter of weeks Hungary built this all along their border...
What do you call someone that comes to your country, seizes land, claims ownership, denies you the ability to pass through that land, and then attacks everything about your society?
Answer: Invaders
Colonial North Americans.... :frown: We all stand on the sins of our forefathers.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: zack1234 on March 22, 2016, 02:06:56 PM
I don't remember stealing anyone's land :old:
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: JimmyD3 on March 22, 2016, 02:39:20 PM
I meant it in more of a, "Yeah, my great-great gran-pappy and his peers did some horrible sh*t so that I can enjoy the things I do today". type of generational sin.
I didn't steal any land either, but I'm a direct descendant of the peoples and systems which "invaded" north america, and furthermore, I enjoy rights and freedoms today as a direct result of that "invasion".
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 22, 2016, 03:27:39 PM
No one is responsible for anyone's actions but their own. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: DubiousKB on March 22, 2016, 03:29:53 PM
I meant it in more of a, "Yeah, my great-great gran-pappy and his peers did some horrible sh*t so that I can enjoy the things I do today". type of generational sin.
I didn't steal any land either, but I'm a direct descendant of the peoples and systems which "invaded" north america, and furthermore, I enjoy rights and freedoms today as a direct result of that "invasion".
Seriously? Do you really think it was a big happy camp singing songs around a camp fire and then the big bad evil Europeans swept across the land in a massive massacre? All through human history people do things to other people. It was the same in North America since the second group wandered into the first. The Europeans were just the most recent, strongest to do so to the people who did the same thing to those before them. Life is tough, wear a helmet.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: zack1234 on March 22, 2016, 03:39:03 PM
I am a Native American
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Ripsnort on March 22, 2016, 03:44:31 PM
Seriously? Do you really think it was a big happy camp singing songs around a camp fire and then the big bad evil Europeans swept across the land in a massive massacre? All through human history people do things to other people. It was the same in North America since the second group wandered into the first. The Europeans were just the most recent, strongest to do so to the people who did the same thing to those before them. Life is tough, wear a helmet.
No I don't think that, I'm not naive.
"What do you call someone that comes to your country, seizes land, claims ownership, denies you the ability to pass through that land, and then attacks everything about your society?
Answer: Invaders"
This is what made me post. It perfectly and adequately describes north america and I found that very ironic in the context of the above discussions...
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 22, 2016, 03:56:41 PM
This white American guilt trip discussion really needs its own thread. Just saying.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: DubiousKB on March 22, 2016, 04:02:25 PM
This white American guilt trip discussion really needs its own thread. Just saying.
INdeed... :banana:
My response to the white guilt issue is usually this. I don't know any royalty in my bloodlines, which undoubtedly leaves me with peasant blood. And guess what, peasants got crapped on alot in history. So meh, all I can do is treat others like I'd like to be treated and go from there.
:bhead We cannot protect society against the lowest common denominator. The herd is weaker because of it, not stronger humans..... :bhead
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: JimmyD3 on March 22, 2016, 04:02:41 PM
Colonial North Americans.... :frown: We all stand on the sins of our forefathers.
Every human alive today is the descendant of a tribe that fought some earlier tribe and took its land, possibly wiping out the earlier tribe in the process. Your statement holds for all humans.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Arlo on March 22, 2016, 04:43:03 PM
Every human alive today is the descendant of a tribe that fought some earlier tribe and took its land, possibly wiping out the earlier tribe in the process. Your statement holds for all humans.
Dunno bout Eskimos. I'm thinkin' they was forced by meanies to live in frigid hell.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Brooke on March 22, 2016, 05:21:26 PM
If not, that would be where the phrase "descended from" comes in -- however, as it turns out:
"The Eskimo are the indigenous peoples who have traditionally inhabited the northern circumpolar region from eastern Siberia (Russia), across Alaska (United States), Canada, and Greenland.[1][2][3]
The two main peoples known as "Eskimo" are: the Inuit of Canada, Northern Alaska (sub-group "Inupiat"), and Greenland; and the Yupik of eastern Siberia and Alaska."
One of my daughters' preschool teachers is Yupik. She's awesome. One of their themes of the week was about how you go hunt seals and eat them and use their skin for mittens. This is near Seattle, so if it had been stories of middle Americans hunting deer, there might have been a furor -- but this was OK. My wife and I loved it. Little ones coming home telling me how you go out on your snow machine and kill the seal and bring it home for food to feed your family.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Chalenge on March 22, 2016, 06:06:16 PM
Actually, there are Inuit people in Russia (Chukotka, Okrug). I have made two trips in my life to retrieve deceased friends, so I know very well where they are. Beautiful area and very friendly people, but the environment is very, very dangerous.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Arlo on March 22, 2016, 06:23:06 PM
What do you call someone that comes to your country, seizes land, claims ownership, denies you the ability to pass through that land, and then attacks everything about your society?
Answer: Invaders
bundy's take over refuge in oregon?
semp
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: guncrasher on March 22, 2016, 06:52:35 PM
what is the purpose of having razor wire in europe when their citizens can come and go as they please within?
semp
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Chalenge on March 22, 2016, 06:53:51 PM
G, there is no such thing as Eskimo. It's like calling Native Americans "Indians," the name is born in ignorance.
Arlo, the problem in Inuit, Yupik, Yuit territories is that the typical transport is either snow machine, or ferry (the old rope towed type). If the ferry capsizes you have just seconds to get your affairs in order. Sociologists and missionaries die frequently.
But, keep laughing if you are so inclined.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Arlo on March 22, 2016, 06:59:54 PM
They apparently killed to live in that paradise. ;)
Ah, mockery -- the slightly upscale cousin of "your momma." Who doesn't enjoy it? Yet, apparently:
"Inuit had trade relations with more southern cultures; boundary disputes were common and gave rise to aggressive actions. Warfare was not uncommon among those Inuit groups with sufficient population density. Inuit such as the Nunatamiut (Uummarmiut) who inhabited the Mackenzie River delta area often engaged in warfare."
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Arlo on March 22, 2016, 07:13:23 PM
Ah, mockery -- the slightly upscale cousin of "your momma." Who doesn't enjoy it? Yet, apparently:
"Inuit had trade relations with more southern cultures; boundary disputes were common and gave rise to aggressive actions. Warfare was not uncommon among those Inuit groups with sufficient population density. Inuit such as the Nunatamiut (Uummarmiut) who inhabited the Mackenzie River delta area often engaged in warfare."
Guess when ya got no other barely habitable place left to migrate to you're kinda forced to defend yourself? How dare they make a go of it and have surplus to trade. I'm upscale from 'you momma?' At least. Now how do we protect ourselves from Innuit extremists? :uhoh
It would be nice to either get past tribal warfare or not give such mentality a philosophical 'See there!" toehold. Criminals are criminals. Don't give in to their self-righteous delusion. Just bring `em to justice and don't waste time, money or blood past that. Um, all criminals, background not a factor.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Brooke on March 22, 2016, 07:21:52 PM
what is the purpose of having razor wire in europe when their citizens can come and go as they please within?
semp
They aren't trying to stop their citizens -- they are trying to stop the flood of illegal immigrants.
Let's look at one example. Prior to October, 2015, waves of migrants were going into Turkey, travelling from there through Greece, travelling from there through various Serbian countries, and from there into Hungary. If Turkey, Greece, and those Serbian countries let the illegal immigrants travel through and on to the next country, if you as Hungary don't want a flood of them into your country, you put up a fence, and this happens:
Monthly illegal immigration into Hungary in October, 2015 (http://media.breitbart.com/media/2015/10/Hungary-Illegals-October.jpg)
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Brooke on March 22, 2016, 07:32:40 PM
My only point, which is quite well established and not at all controversial (and so not susceptible to mockery), is that all humans are descended from tribes that fought and drove off other tribes at some point in human history.
Basically:
Did you fight another tribe and take their land? No? Well, did your father? No? Well, did your (great)^N grandfather? Yes. <---- And that is true for every human alive for some number N.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Arlo on March 22, 2016, 07:33:18 PM
The vast majority of illegal immigrants in the United States come in legally, at first, through air and sea ports. Once they overstay their visa and become illegal then that is usually the only crime the vast majority of those commit. Building a 40 billion dollar 30 ft wall all along the U.S.- Mexico border (the projection for building and maintenance keeps getting adjusted) can be breached by a 35 ft ladder and a rope (or a tunnel).
Anyway, this thread is in the red zone now. My regrets for my part of that. Back to occasional joke and mockery. Maybe complete misdirection. Yo momma. :D
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 22, 2016, 07:37:36 PM
what is the purpose of having razor wire in europe when their citizens can come and go as they please within?
semp
Because you have to be a citizen. An asylum seeker who is registered when entering Greece... If this person travels to Norway we will immediately deport him back to Greece in accordance with the Dublin Regulation. That's why all these nations closest to Turkey, who are being overrun, are walling themselves in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 22, 2016, 07:46:29 PM
Because you have to be a citizen. An asylum seeker who is registered when entering Greece... If this person travels to Norway we will immediately deport him back to Greece in accordance with the Dublin Regulation. That's why all these nations closest to Turkey, who are being overrun, are walling themselves in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation
I enter greece as an asylum seeker, get to the street, throw my papers away and pretend to be a citizen. so again what is the razor wire for?
the reason I ask is because all I see razor wire, but are they at the border? or are they at the local jail. I have traveled thru europe (ok I havent but sons have) and they dont mention razor wire at the border.
semp
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 22, 2016, 08:26:48 PM
I enter greece as an asylum seeker, get to the street, throw my papers away and pretend to be a citizen.
Doesn't work like that over here. Unlike in your country, over here national ID is mandatory and given at birth or when citizenship is granted to an immigrant. When I was born I was given a unique personal serial number and enrolled in my county's "citizen register". Any person not in that register is not a citizen of Norway no matter what or where they were born.
Without that personal number and registry I wouldn't be able to get a bank account, a job, a drivers license, rent an apartment, buy a car, a phone subscription... Just about every service in my country is linked to my registered citizen ID.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 22, 2016, 08:28:28 PM
The fences were mostly built last fall... In a matter of weeks. Army engineers are good at that sort of thing.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: guncrasher on March 22, 2016, 09:21:43 PM
Doesn't work like that over here. Unlike in your country, over here national ID is mandatory and given at birth or when citizenship is granted to an immigrant. When I was born I was given a unique personal serial number and enrolled in my county's "citizen register". Any person not in that register is not a citizen of Norway no matter what or where they were born.
Without that personal number and registry I wouldn't be able to get a bank account, a job, a drivers license, rent an apartment, buy a car, a phone subscription... Just about every service in my country is linked to my registered citizen ID.
you mean a social security number? heck no, nope no other country has thought about that. no way. how do you do that again? give a unique number? wow, that's groundbreaking.
you guys should really get one of them, unique ideas that nobody else can copy, what do you call them? can somebody invent a name like patent or something.
semp
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 22, 2016, 09:38:32 PM
You guys have a social security numbers sure, but you have to apply for it. Here you don't get a choice, and you can't live without one. In the U.S. (as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong) if you're born on U.S. soil you are an American, and no one really knows exactly how many Americans there are and who they are. Not so over here. Here you can't live as a "Hillbilly". It is in fact illegal for you not to have a registered address. Here your parents also need to be Norwegian for you to be granted citizenship, and every single citizen is registered. There are no exceptions. We have kids that were born here, and have lived all their lives here, gone to school here, sometimes into their early teens, that are deported to places like Afghanistan because their parents' citizenship applications are rejected.
It may sound harsh and like an Orwellian police state... But the alternative is what you guys are facing with your immigration problems, just worse. Worse in that at least your immigrants are largely culturally compatible. Ours aren't. Europeans, and people in the Western World in general will have to grow some serious emotional and moral calluses to deal with this crisis or our civilization (as we know it) will be lost.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Brooke on March 22, 2016, 11:38:06 PM
Building a 40 billion dollar 30 ft wall all along the U.S.- Mexico border (the projection for building and maintenance keeps getting adjusted) can be breached by a 35 ft ladder and a rope (or a tunnel).
Of course a wall isn't going to stop 100% of people, but it might be 95% effective, and 0.05 * N is much, much smaller than 1.0 * N. Try applying such logic to anything else in the universe. Window screens don't keep out 100% of insects. Sunscreen doesn't block out 100% of UV. Medicine doesn't have a 100% cure rate. That doesn't make mean they aren't highly useful to employ.
Walls and fences are quite effective in greatly reducing encroachment, which is why they have been used from antiquity through today, where they continue to be widely used around military bases, airports, schools, high-end homes, the Vatican, Israel, secure storage locations, power plants, electrical substations, water-treatment plants, construction areas, pools, parking areas, ports, and so on.
Here is an example (which some people keep ignoring) *directly* relevant to the discussion.
Hungary built this along its border (it took less than a month to do it):
Is that fence useless? No. Are 6000 people per day going over it with a ladder or rope or under it with a tunnel? No. Do you think that, even if some tunnels were dug, still 6000 people per day would go through them, or would it put a significant crimp in the flow?
So, let's talk about the costs. $40B. Let's look at that from two perspectives.
First is that our government spends $3.5 trillion per year. If the project took 4 years (likely hugely optimistic), that would be $10B per year, or 0.29% of the government's yearly spending. If you are a Keynsian (are you?), you wouldn't care about that anyway, since the larger the money spent, the better anyway. (It is interesting that many of the factions against a border fence are Keynsians yet use the cost as an argument against a fence -- I'm shocked at the hypocrisy.)
Second, there is the cost of illegal immigration. All references for these numbers are given below. It costs $10,000 to deport a person. Illegal immigrants cost the US $113B/year as of 2011. As of 2011-2013 or so, there were an estimated 20M illegal immigrants in the US. As of 2000-2005, there are 850,000 new illegal immigrants per year coming in.
So, the cost of a fence is about 1/3 of the cost for one year of illegal immigrants in the US.
Also, assuming an illegal immigrant spends 5 years here before getting deported (my guess is that the average stay is more like a lifetime, not 5 years, but I'll be conservative here in a direction that disfavors my argument), the cost per new illegal immigrant is the cost of his stay plus the cost of eventual deportation = 5 * $113B/20M + $10k = $38k. Assuming a wall reduces illegal border crossers by 50% (an unrealistically low estimate, I think, based on Hungary), and assuming our current border crossers are 60% of only 850,000/yr (data as of 2011 -- I'm not assuming any increase since then), a wall would reduce crossers by 255,000 people/yr. Under those conditions, the wall is paid off in 4 years, and after that is generating $10B per year in cash flow.
So, there you have it. An argument based not on purposefully misleading leftist -- or rightist -- propaganda but on published numbers and using straightforward math.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Arlo on March 23, 2016, 12:15:41 AM
We will make Canada pay for the Canadian wall. :cool:
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Brooke on March 23, 2016, 12:31:08 AM
$10B/year cash flow from an asset that cost $40B to build. Think of it. Scale it to something like a house. Pay $400k and get $100k/yr in cash flow from it.
Would you do it?
That's as good a deal as borrowing at negative interest rates.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Brooke on March 23, 2016, 12:55:32 AM
Europeans, and people in the Western World in general will have to grow some serious emotional and moral calluses to deal with this crisis or our civilization (as we know it) will be lost.
My fear is that there aren't enough Europeans who feel that way.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Brooke on March 23, 2016, 01:26:11 AM
I enter greece as an asylum seeker, get to the street, throw my papers away and pretend to be a citizen. so again what is the razor wire for?
For keeping out the people who throw their papers away and pretend to be a citizen. They don't get let through the checkpoint in the fence.
Quote
the reason I ask is because all I see razor wire, but are they at the border? or are they at the local jail. I have traveled thru europe (ok I havent but sons have) and they dont mention razor wire at the border.
semp
They are at the border of some countries -- like Hungary -- but not every country and not every border.
Europe's Fences as of December, 2015 (http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/NEW-EUROPE-MAP-406699.jpg)
You did see the several posts showing Hungary's fence and its effect on eliminating their illegal-immigration problem, right?
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: zack1234 on March 23, 2016, 02:31:34 AM
I DONT THINK THERE ARE ENOUGH IMMIGRANTS COMING TO EUROPE!
Would like to know why :old:
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: GScholz on March 23, 2016, 08:11:57 AM
My fear is that there aren't enough Europeans who feel that way.
There is wind of change, so to speak. A stirring in the masses that's almost eerie. And for the first time in my life I have no idea where Europe is headed.
http://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-35026976
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Arlo on March 23, 2016, 08:46:35 AM
Fear is a powerful motivator. Political candidates with easy answers are generally wrong. Illegal immigration in the U.S.is already on the decline, without a wall. If the true fear is rapists, illegal drugs and terrorists, the Donald wall isn't going to prevent that; with the exception of drugs (which the cartel is wealthy and crafty enough to maintain flow) we mostly home grow the problem. In the U.S. a better investment is in the infrastructure (which is being neglected to decay) and living wages (which is key in helping an economy stay healthy).
So, if a big, expensive, Iron Curtain-like wall excites any of you, prepare for the most expensive anti-climax of your, your children's, their children's (and on) lives.
Can I just go back to making fun of a political thread now? :D
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Brooke on March 23, 2016, 11:35:11 AM
See above on actual numbers and reasoning as opposed to statements with no (or incorrect) basis.
Quote
In the U.S. a better investment is
Not really. "Economics in One Lesson," by Hazlitt and "Basic Economics," by Sowell lay out what good economic policy really is and why. If people would read one or the other, they wouldn't fall for hollow buzzwords that lead to incorrect and harmful economic policy.
For example, minimum-wage policies are proven through analysis of much historical data to be harmful to the very people they purport to help. It's like in the movie Idiocracy, where people believe that watering plants with Brawndo (instead of water) is good because:
So, if a big, expensive, Iron Curtain-like wall excites any of you, prepare for the most expensive anti-climax of your, your children's, their children's (and on) lives.
You ignored the above analysis. Two points stand out:
1. The government spends $3.5 trillion *every year*. Compared to that, $10B/year for 4 years is . . . not even noticeable. There are the equivalent of 350 $10B-sized expenditures *every year* going on into infinity. So, no, it wouldn't be the most-expensive anything.
2. Spending N dollars to get N/4 dollars back per year thereafter is the *opposite* of expensive.
Arlo, you don't like the border fence for emotional reasons, not financial ones.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Serenity on March 23, 2016, 12:33:11 PM
See above on actual numbers and reasoning as opposed to statements with no (or incorrect) basis.
Not really. "Economics in One Lesson," by Hazlitt and "Basic Economics," by Sowell lay out what good economic policy really is and why. If people would read one or the other, they wouldn't fall for hollow buzzwords that lead to incorrect and harmful economic policy.
For example, minimum-wage policies are proven through analysis of much historical data to be harmful to the very people they purport to help. It's like in the movie Idiocracy, where people believe that watering plants with Brawndo (instead of water) is good because:
You ignored the above analysis. Two points stand out:
1. The government spends $3.5 trillion *every year*. Compared to that, $10B/year for 4 years is . . . not even noticeable. There are the equivalent of 350 $10B-sized expenditures *every year* going on into infinity. So, no, it wouldn't be the most-expensive anything.
2. Spending N dollars to get N/4 dollars back per year thereafter is the *opposite* of expensive.
Arlo, you don't like the border fence for emotional reasons, not financial ones.
I like you.
Title: Re: The Greatest Mass Migration Since WWII
Post by: Skuzzy on March 23, 2016, 12:35:15 PM
This has wandered way into the political zone. I could edit it, but quite frankly, it is a topic which would be hard pressed to keep politics out of it.