Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: branch37 on April 09, 2016, 12:05:25 AM
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Given the recent discussion on the topic of floating in a chute, I find it very hard to believe that anybody would have the stones or stupidity to blatantly violate that specific rule, but alas, stupidity cannot be predicted. Tonight one of my squaddies was killed outright on the re arm pad by JK from the squadron CLAIM JUMPERS with his .45. Another squaddie was forced to end his flight or be killed, and a third squaddie was vulched following an obvious call from JK that planes were on the re arm pad. I can understand that a new pilot may not be familiar with the rules, or the current topic on the BBS, but JK has been around for a while. On top of this there is ZERO reason for this kind of childish behavior to come from a squadron that has been active in FSO for as long as I can remember. This behavior shows an obvious disrespect of the rules of FSO, and no desire or effort by the CLAIM JUMPERS leadership to hold the squadron to any standard approaching respectable.
The fact that a vulching aircraft showed up within 3 minutes of JK's actions shows that he was in communication with inbound squad mates who were also aware of his rule violations, and instead of putting a stop to them, acted upon them to get more kills. How easy would it have been for the C.O. or whomever was in command at the time to simply tell him that he was in violation of the FSO Rules and tower immediately?
Not very often are FSO rules so blatantly violated by a single person much less an entire group. For this action to go un-punished on the squadron level would be very disappointing, and damaging, in my eyes, to the reputation of the FSO staff.
<S>
Branch37
VF-17 "Jolly Rogers" C.O.
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while I don't disagree with branch, I'd rather see the player punished, rather then the entire squad. Yes they have been around a long time, and yes they know better. Squads are a group of individual, who hopefully know right from wrong. These are not real military groups with military precision and military rankings, but rather a bunch of people who like to play something together.
Go after the individual and warn the group. again I know id be upset too, but in order to preserve the game, Id rather see the individual punished. better to lose one player, then an entire squad.
my 2 cents <S>
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If you have any film please send it to me. warloc1841@gmail.com I will also look at the logs and make some inquiries. Sorry that that happened :(
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check your email from captgary1ma@gmail
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@ Branch37
One of your squad mates contacted me on 202 and indicated that he will send me his film. I have not received said film yet. I sent him my email address.
Once I receive that film it will be reviewed by the CM Staff and handled accordingly.
I am waiting on that film...
Please feel free to send me your film if you have it. The sooner we can review it, the sooner we can make a determination.
Thanks!
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Film received so I have what I need. I do not require anything else. Leave it with me. Thanks guys.
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Slip has film of the incident. While I kinda agree with Jaeger, It's up to the squad leaders to bring those in that will act responsibly. After all, if you bring them in under your banner they are now representing your squad in FSO. No different then if one of my mechanics screws something up while I'm at lunch or on vacation, as the manager, I'm still responsible for their actions and have to take responsibility for it. If I'm directly involved in the incident or not. Now this did involve a ride in another aircraft and I'm suspecting with another squad, so how deep this rabbit hole goes, I'm not for sure. I'll leave it to the powers that be from here.
:salute
BigRat
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@ Branch37
One of your squad mates contacted me on 202 and indicated that he will send me his film. I have not received said film yet. I sent him my email address.
Once I receive that film it will be reviewed by the CM Staff and handled accordingly.
I am waiting on that film...
Please feel free to send me your film if you have it. The sooner we can review it, the sooner we can make a determination.
Thanks!
I have sent the film. Please confirm receipt.
The film actually shows multiple violations of this rule and that two members of the same squad walked to the field together, which would indicate some kind of coordination and likely vox channel use, meaning the squad should have been aware of it.
I'm sorry that this is being addressed on the boards, but this rules violation by veteran FSO pilots ended the night of several players and affected the scores of the event. This is also not good for FSO participation, as nobody wants to participate in events where the rules can be ignored without consequence. Yes, mistakes are made, but this was not accidental.
As a squad-oriented event, I hope stern action is taken at the squad level to demonstrate that intentionally violating rules puts your entire squad in jeopardy. CO's and squadmates alike should be made aware that others will be penalized as a result of their intentionally breaking rules. That is truly the only way to keep players from going rogue or claiming ignorance.
Again, I'm sorry to see this on the boards, Slipknot, but since it is out there, those are my comments on it.
<S>
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I have it. Thanks.
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Tonight one of my squaddies was killed outright on the re arm pad by JK from the squadron CLAIM JUMPERS with his .45.
Indefensible. No argument.
... and no desire or effort by the CLAIM JUMPERS leadership to hold the squadron to any standard approaching respectable.
Subjective and just plain wrong. And, who is the arbiter of "respectable?"
The fact that a vulching aircraft showed up within 3 minutes of JK's actions shows that he was in communication with inbound squad mates who were also aware of his rule violations, and instead of putting a stop to them, acted upon them to get more kills. How easy would it have been for the C.O. or whomever was in command at the time to simply tell him that he was in violation of the FSO Rules and tower immediately?
Now to the purpose of this response:
I was unaware of any discussion of restricting people from floating down in chutes. I don't come to this forum on a regular basis. I have bailed, floated and reported what I saw many times. Usually the fight goes out of range quickly, and there is little material effect.
To communicate with incoming planes from a chute is "gamey" to be certain, but it was not a conspiracy.
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From the FSO rules page:
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- Pilots are expected to do their "fighting" from the AC or GV's that they have been assigned to by their CiC. Once you have been shot down you should be heading to your tower. Shooting at the enemy with your .45 or drawing anti-aircraft fire with your pilot is not allowed. You may be suspended for doing so.
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- Squad C.O.'s and X.O.'s are required to keep up with FSO via the Friday Squad Operations forum and ahevents email.
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- Personal behavior of the pilots in the arena (including the text buffer) will be put to highest standard of honor and good sportsmanship. CO's will have to deal with the disruptive pilots from their squadrons.
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See this link for more detail: http://www.ahevents.org/fso-rules.html (http://www.ahevents.org/fso-rules.html)
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Guys if this is the way it's gonna be you have to factor in people. That's why we have rules. It's not this hard! If idjits are gonna bail and play around then, I said it in last month's thread abs I'll say it again - - - - NO BAILING!
There is no reason to bail out >IN FSO<. Other events assign points for bailed/ditched, but in FSO you either make it back in time alive or your plane is lost.
No bailing!
Simple.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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I know the film is on the way, but I just wanted to corroborate the sighting...
I observed a chute SE of A54 moving through the trees toward the base. The fight was at treetops at this point in the Russian attack. I had no idea what the end game would be. Astonishing.
I'm going to agree with Drano. It's the KISS method for us, I think, which isn't a bad thing.
Sad.
:salute
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I know the film is on the way, but I just wanted to corroborate the sighting...
No one is denying anything.
On the issue of idiot proofing, is there anyway to disable the hand gun? Though, I vaguely recall having a shootout with another pilot. It was fun, and had no effect on anything.
Reporting from the chute is in the same category as reporting from a sunken TG or having neutral airfields flashing publicly. All game exploits that have marginal effect.
Let's keep some perspective. FSO is about fun. We all share an appreciation of history and aviation. Let's keep it fun.
From the FSO rules page:
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See this link for more detail: http://www.ahevents.org/fso-rules.html (http://www.ahevents.org/fso-rules.html)
I confess to never having read the rules. I'll read them.
In terms of squad "leadership," I never aspired to any such thing. It is just that I enjoy FSO, and have been around for so long. :banana:
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Guys if this is the way it's gonna be you have to factor in people. That's why we have rules. It's not this hard! If idjits are gonna bail and play around then, I said it in last month's thread abs I'll say it again - - - - NO BAILING!
There is no reason to bail out >IN FSO<. Other events assign points for bailed/ditched, but in FSO you either make it back in time alive or your plane is lost.
No bailing!
Simple.
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I have no problem with bailing. In fact, I use it in how i score VF-17's FSO sorties. The way I understand the rule is that once you bail, you tower immediately. Not much room for screwing around on the ground there.
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The point is people ARE screwing around on the ground. It is what it is. If it's become a problem, and apparently it has, then rule it out.
No disrespect, but how you score what your squad does is irrelevant. The scoring in FSO is all that matters. If you're telling your guys it's ok or incentivising bailing because of some points thing in your squad (that has nothing to do with the event) then you're what's at issue.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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Adding more rules to something that is already breaking the rules is dumb, We just need to enforce the rules we have. And how many people really care about the score in FSO as long as your enjoying it, I doubt many. Score is only there to give us goals to shoot for. Now when someone's breaking of the rules, goes against somebody else's enjoyment of FSO, then we have a big problem. I personally try and immerse myself in FSO a bit, can I safely crash land this wounded bird, on or off a field. Can I survive long enough with this pilot would to bail over friendly territory? etc. and so on. Nothing that endangers anybody else's fun but my own, as I ".ef" as soon as my shoot opens or my plane slides to a stop. This is within the rules and has never been an issue in endangering somebody else's fun or effecting an outcome of an FSO battle.
It's up to CO's and XO's of FSO to make sure their pilots know and follow these rules, if not kick them out as they are representing your squad negatively.
:salute
BigRat
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Oh I totally get the too many rules thing, Rat! Having been involved in the command staff of a few scenarios, the rules in those can make anyone's head spin! But this is an easy one for everybody, including the CMs scoring the event. No film required. Logs will show "bravely bailed from damaged plane" --boom! Penalty. Period. Super easy. Takes the idiots out, at least theoretically. Enough guys get penalized, this will become a non-issue rather quickly.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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-200 points for bail and shooting a pilot on the other side if caught. problem solved. you don't need to get rid of bail, but if you get caught, 200 point fine. you could take it even further and make it 200 per plane and per pilot, thats 400 points. that will deter the gameyness and still allow for realistic bailing. Peer pressure will take care of the rest. pretty simple. just remember..... the squirrels have camera's!
at the end of the day, its still a game and its still about fun, everyone's fun!
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Wouldn't it be nice if we lived and played in a community where there was no need to have so many detailed rules to cover such commonsense things. Perhaps if the rule simply said something like: once your plane is no longer flying, whether you crashed, ditched or bailed, you must immediately end flight and go to the tower.
Unfortunately there will always be someone who will push it to the limit and pick apart every word to look for an interpretation to support them doing something they know they shouldn't do.
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hey I like that one dot!!! lets assimilate that common sense, shall we?!!!
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Drano, if the FSO community and CM's decide to go that route, we will comply gladly (put it to a vote maybe). I would prefer different, but I will follow the rules as always, and make sure my guys do as well. I do see your point for ease of spotting infractions. But what's the penalty for an infraction such as this to the squad, player, side? The sad part unless there is something besides a simple points penalty, stuff like this will continue. As points for your side would mean nothing to many griefers, as they are only interested in what's fun for them. There has to be "real" penalties for serious infractions like this, not just imaginary points. At this point it's up to the CM's and I'll leave it in their hands.
<S>
BigRat
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There is nothing wrong with bailing (and towering out) from a plane that's going down it was done irl, but to pull out your 45 and using it to kill people rearming or Letting your teammates know people are Rearming is cheating And needs to carry is severe penalty.
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Gonna be pretty hard to not automatically bail when you're missing a wing. I've done it so many times, my brain is no longer part of the procedure; just spinal chord and fingers doing all the work. If that's gonna cost a side 200 points as suggested, the scoring is gonna be in the negative numbers pretty much every time. We already have rules that are being enforced; this thread is a case in point. No need to reinvent the wheel.
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The point is people ARE screwing around on the ground. It is what it is. If it's become a problem, and apparently it has, then rule it out.
No disrespect, but how you score what your squad does is irrelevant. The scoring in FSO is all that matters. If you're telling your guys it's ok or incentivising bailing because of some points thing in your squad (that has nothing to do with the event) then you're what's at issue.
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I'm not going to try and change your mind here, but if you feel that me implementing a system in my squad that does nothing but reward smart flying and dissuades reckless acts such as sacrificing a plane in the last minutes of a frame just because I can is causing this whole .45 on the ground thing then I am sorry but I feel that you are dead wrong. Like I said, I'm not here to change your mind or re write the rules. This matter is in the hands of the CMs now, and I have said everything here I came to say. With that, I am done in this thread.
See y'all next week. :salute
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I'm not going to try and change your mind here, but if you feel that me implementing a system in my squad that does nothing but reward smart flying and dissuades reckless acts such as sacrificing a plane in the last minutes of a frame just because I can is causing this whole .45 on the ground thing then I am sorry but I feel that you are dead wrong. Like I said, I'm not here to change your mind or re write the rules. This matter is in the hands of the CMs now, and I have said everything here I came to say. With that, I am done in this thread.
See y'all next week. :salute
Branch, you outed yourself in your first post as someone who condones this kinda stuff because of some inner squad scoring system, did you not? So that's not gonna get my mind changed. You guys don't get to just make up your own scoring system. Maybe you've missed it, but it's been a subject of discussion the last couple of events. It wasn't me that brought it up. Lot of the other people you fly with on Friday nights aren't happy with it. Seems you should get on board and start condemning it instead of thinking it's some smarter way of playing.
I know I have little chance of changing YOUR mind on this but as you said, it's in the hands of the CMs.
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There is not going to be a rule stating you can't bail out in FSO. We don't need it and it's not happening. I believe I said as much in the last thread. Why? because we can't prevent players from bailing out and I am not about to police it. What rules we have need to be ones we need for a good reason. Slapping a rule on anything and everything we don't like will bog us down in a rule system that will look like the Federal Tax Code. I'm not going there.
...but asking guys not to land via chute...then navigate towards a base...and then start shooting planes with a 45...well that takes some doing, there is a rule against it and it will be enforced.
The vast majority of players in FSO abide by the rules. Let's remember that as well.
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But this is an easy one for everybody, including the CMs scoring the event. No film required. Logs will show "bravely bailed from damaged plane" --boom! Penalty.
Say what?
I am kinda new to AH and very new to the FSO's. I have been shot down in FSO's and bailed out and exited to the tower as soon as the chute deployed. The log did say "bravely bailed...".
Am I misinterpreting what you said, or am I going to get penalized for that? I didn't run around shooting my .45 (In fact, it never even occurred to me that I could kill someone with it...I thought it was just a fun little add-on to the parachute experience.)
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The problem then isn't you, it's others who would bail and then mess around in either the chute or run around on the ground. This_is_not_cool.
There's no point whatsoever to bail from your plane in FSO. Absolutely none. No points are gained or lost. Ride your plane in and call it a night. Our gun for one of your countrymen if you really want to help your side.
There are plenty of things on this world that are illegal. Usually it's because somebody abused something to the point thru had to make a law about it.
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the point of the bail is a ditch or a capture or bail vs a death. assuming deaths count against us, I bail when I can!
lets face it, there are always people that will take advantage of a situation when they can. lets just do something about those people and call it a day. pretty simple. no need to rewrite the constitution, if you will.
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(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e362/Kanny1/homo.jpg)
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Gonna be pretty hard to not automatically bail when you're missing a wing. I've done it so many times, my brain is no longer part of the procedure; just spinal chord and fingers doing all the work. If that's gonna cost a side 200 points as suggested, the scoring is gonna be in the negative numbers pretty much every time.
I am exactly the same; Last night I had a yak9T warp from 800 yards to 200 and remove my wing with it's bloody boom gun. Before the plane completed the snap roll I had hit enter 3 times, cursed like a trooper as I hit "O! and "/.ef". That would have been -200 to us, and the warper getting off free.
There is nothing wrong with bailing (and towering out) from a plane that's going down it was done irl, but to pull out your 45 and using it to kill people rearming or Letting your teammates know people are Rearming is cheating And needs to carry is severe penalty.
This
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There is not going to be a rule stating you can't bail out in FSO. We don't need it and it's not happening. I believe I said as much in the last thread. Why? because we can't prevent players from bailing out and I am not about to police it. What rules we have need to be ones we need for a good reason. Slapping a rule on anything and everything we don't like will bog us down in a rule system that will look like the Federal Tax Code. I'm not going there.
...but asking guys not to land via chute...then navigate towards a base...and then start shooting planes with a 45...well that takes some doing, there is a rule against it and it will be enforced.
The vast majority of players in FSO abide by the rules. Let's remember that as well.
Well said.
The rule already exists -- you exit when you are shot down and you NEVER shoot your .45. Perhaps it needs to be clarified to say "immediately end flight (.ef)", but there is nothing here that requires a rule change or a debate along those lines.
The existing rule was clearly violated, so this is only a matter of enforcement now. How it is enforced and the penalty that is issued is the key to limiting this kind of behavior.
In most team sports, when one member of a team ignores the rules, the penalty impacts their whole team, not just the individual. Likewise, FSO rules violations should have penalties that affect an entire squad and/or side, to ensure that squads and sides police things themselves. This allows CM's to fairly and consistently referee events and issue penalties, which should be their role, without turning them into cops policing events and chasing individuals.
I agree that points alone may not be an adequate deterrent. I believe a combination of something like erasing ALL that squads points for that frame (penalizing the side) AND assigning a squad penalty aircraft for the next frame (penalizing the squad) would be a far more effective deterrent than suspending or punishing individual pilots for a frame. This is particularly true when you had TWO players from the same squad violating a rule together, clearly communicating and coordinating their efforts and NOTHING was said by their squadmates or side to tell them they shouldn't be running around on the ground.
Penalties should be on a squad level, to ensure they are dealt with there, and stiff enough to act as a deterrent, not just seek to "fix" things or balance out the "what if it didn't happen" equation.
My two cents.
<S>
Kingpin
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Drano, I think you are reading more into what branch has posted than what he really meant. All he stated is that he encourages his squad to bail out of broken planes because of some squad scoring they keep, he never said he encourages his squad to not tower out immediately after bailing. Nowhere in his post does it indicate that he wants his pilots to break any rules, he just doesn't want to see a automatic penalty put in place for anybody who has the term "bravely bailed" on their score card at the end of the night. Luckily it doesn't look like that is the way the CM team wants to go.
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of course the problem with not being able to bail at all, is if you're in a bomber formation. if they hit the piloted plane, and you can bail, you take your drones with you! that's not a good thing......
I have to give credit to alpo, I did not think of that, he did!
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I'm clearly missing something here.
What is the difference.....
IN FSO....
between a death, ditch or bail?
Is the scoring different?...
IN FSO?
I don't think it is.
The points in FSO are for that frame, for your side. NO ONE GETS ANY INDIVIDUAL POINTS....
IN FSO!
So why? Why bail? What's the point of it? Some people are abusing it. That's clear. Otherwise this whole discussion isn't happening. So why leave it as an option to be abused? Why put more load on the CMs to have to deal with? Just outlaw bailing, which has ABSOLUTELY ZERO PURPOSE IN FSO...... and this "problem" is solved.
I can tell you I've been doing this a long, long time now and I don't think I can recall bailing from a plane ever. Here if you're dead you're dead. Bailing is a waste of time you could spend gunning for someone.
FWIW, I had not considered the bombers, but that's a different animal. Bail from one bomber of a formation and that plane plummets to the earth. It's AI crew rides it to their deaths like men! Just as dead. Just as many points just changed sides of the ledger.
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Anything other than a successful landing is scored as a death. Ditch, crash, explode, bail, etc...as soon as you leave your plane, you have died.
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Also. There is no way to disable the .45. We rely on pilots and squads for that...
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I'm clearly missing something here.
Yes, I think you might be missing three important points, all of which have been stated in this thread:
1) The rule against using your .45 already exists.
2) Squire/Warloc has stated that they are not going to add a rule against bailing because bailing from a damaged bomber in a formation is necessary.
3) This is a matter of enforcing the rules, not trying to change them.
<S>
Kingpin
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Oh I haven't missed any of that amigo. But if people are getting in that habit of abusing things--as they are-- then I say remove it. Simplifies everything. No point in it, other than the bombers, but I've stipulated to that.
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With that line of thinking...
If your engine quits or you run out of gas because of a fuel tank hit, you should just nose over and lawn dart into the ground!
:rofl
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Well if you're going to make it back to your base in a glide then absolutely go for it. That's the only reason to bother. If you have no shot to make it even out of sight of an NME field and you're just sitting there to flash the base then that's a good example of being a tool.
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FSO is one of the reasons I still subscribe. Are we trying to make it like work?
One guy managed to get the rearm pad on foot. How often does that happen? How often is that even possible? He was attacking the field, so he was over it. He got shot down. The field was deacked. It is a freak incident.
The accusation of cheating is BS. Telling your side what you are seeing or have seen is legitimate. It is going to continue to happen.
The 'victims' in this incident were rearming at a targeted field. The arrival of the slower Il-2s was going to happen, regardless of the crazed .45 shooter.
The only wrong doing was a rules violation on actions after bail out.
Now, let's set down our participation trophies and focus on having fun.
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A suspension for the rest of April FSO has been handed out to the player arising from the incident with the .45. The scoring part will be adjusted for frame 1 when I score it. I consider the matter concluded.
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A suspension for the rest of April FSO has been handed out to the player arising from the incident with the .45. The scoring part will be adjusted for frame 1 when I score it. I consider the matter concluded.
Thank you Warloc for a dressing this matter
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good job warlock!!! now back to having fun!!
personally I think we should have a 5 man ingame firing squad with 45's on the guy, but ill settle!! have a great day!
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If I have a chance to bail I do, but I don't even open my chute. I just hit end sortie. To me it's just a personal thing. I know it still scores as a kill but like I said it's just a personal thing. I don't hang around in a chute because I do understand what they are saying. Just my 2 cents worth :salute