Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FX1 on July 02, 2016, 12:06:07 AM
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Today's MA is much different then ten years ago. Half the roster have 5 plus years of experience and a good amount I can recall seeing their names back in the aw days. I could only imagine the frustration for a new player jumping into the MA shark tank of today.
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When I started AcesHigh, I thought 99% were vet MA Sharks.
A little determination gets you places. :old:
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When I started AcesHigh, I thought 99% were vet MA Sharks.
A little determination gets you places.
Good lord, when I started AW, it seemed like everyone else was a merciless god.
You expect that in a new game you're not going to start out equal to the veterans. At least, I hope you do. You're playing juvenile games if you don't.
Had a very pleasant half hour in Beta tonight with someone who is transitioning from GVs to aeroplanes. He was eager to work on his merges, over and over and over again. That's the kind of person who fits in a niche game.
- oldman
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That is why the new "FREE" games are so popular, you can buy better equipment to make yourself less vulnerable. Sad but true.
Some say they do not have the time to put into learning a game. That means you have no time to game. In days past you would not have played. You can't play chess. You can't play checkers. You can't play baseball, etc.
To think, all the new "FREE" games started with cheat codes in Nintendo.
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That is why the new "FREE" games are so popular, you can buy better equipment to make yourself less vulnerable. Sad but true.
Could be.. but why couldn't the 'other' guy just buy better equipment too? Wouldn't that make you more vulnerable all over again?
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Could be.. but why couldn't the 'other' guy just buy better equipment too? Wouldn't that make you more vulnerable all over again?
Because some actually want a free game. Those that want to pay to look good will. Not that they are any good at all.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
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like any game, skill level plateaus. some 9 years ago it took me three months to get a kill, was the same day i joined a squad.
:salute
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When I started AcesHigh, I thought 99% were vet MA Sharks.
A little determination gets you places. :old:
When I first started playing in AW I remember being frustrated in how many kills IO was getting because I..like most people figured I would just start playing and start tearing people up. Then having looked up how many kills the average pilot racked up in a day in WWII (not many) I remember arguing with someone and proudly spouting off that I had 5 kills that day...the entire day. And I was quite proud of myself with this.
My opponent who's name I do not recall replied with. "LMAO, I got 5 kills my last flight"
It was quite some time before I could make the same claim
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Ive been playing 10 years and I still die relentlessly, but I have a great time doing it!
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I became more competitive against the vets years ago when I grew some balls and went to the DA with a few of them. In a short time I leared a lot from getting beat over and over.
To be successful and to be competitive is different IMO.
BNZ and flying where the chance of death is low isn't hard if you have SA. (Did this prior to having a clue what ACM was...k/d was higher but K/T was low...that's how we know who you timid ladies are.)
But a lot of times that same stick will get another one over top of them and often die quite quickly or dive away to friendly/ack.
The competitive sticks can control a furball from the advantage(notice the world furball, not just a plane below them) and fight themselves out of a position of disadvantage to get the advantage back.
These days I feel the average MA stick skill is higher then years ago...and I think there is more competition at the top...even though there are some timid sticks up there for sure...just look at top 50 fighters this tour...half them are lady boys I bet....maybe I'll just post which ones are later. :)
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A view from a returning player:
IMHO, the MA is much more competitive now than when I played AH I and II in beta.
It is harder to survive in a bomber (F4's diving on you from 20K) and every Pony dweeb knows how to BnZ. There are fewer mass fights and kills are harder to get. Early and Mid -war planes take even more skill than ever to get kills and land 'em. Makes the TA even more important, yet there are fewer people in the TA when I log on than in the past.
The game is different, but the enjoyment is the same: shooting at targets and getting kills. My only wish is to have more missions available.
Love the game - see you in the virtual skies!
:aok
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A view from a returning player
Good to have you back, dude.
- oldman
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:headscratch:
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Should we all start sucking? If not, is there something that needs to change?
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I have had the impression that there are fewer people that are really good at this stuff in game now. I have noticed that dropping off for several years now.
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I don't think we have that many "sharks" any more. There a number of players who THINK they are sharks and talk a big game but very few can back it up. Anyone with some patience can be a good BnZ guy and so finish high on a scoreboard. There are very few in here that can go against 5 to 1 odds and come out the winner like we use to see in the old days.
Todays players are very different than yesterdays players as well. Many of us old timers came to these games and were shark bait, but instead of looking for "codes" to get ahead, or just quitting we said "I'm going to practice and get as good as <insert favorite shark here> and worked at it. Today we have a bunch of sissys that look to cut corners and game the game. Instead of putting in the time and becoming a good base capture squad they fly for hours to drop HQ and think they are the best squad in the game. The LTARS were the best GV squad around because they PRACTICED running GV ops, instead of driving 4 hours to long range a field/depot and call themselves great.
Nobody wants to put in the time to become good at the game so we have mediocre players. Lame game play bores the crap out of newbies and chases them away more than being shark bait for any length of time.
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I have had the impression that there are fewer people that are really good at this stuff in game now. I have noticed that dropping off for several years now.
It might appear that way even if the top sticks now are as good but the general population is better then they were. We have players who grew up playing AH and the information you need to know is more easily available.
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First flight in AH parked at the end of the runway thinking what was that engine start key again?, kind of just looking around taking it all in then all I hear is (insert bullet sound hitting your plane here) I see nothing for the moment, there it is again, wait, what? ....... back in the tower. :grin: first flight... first vulcheee experience.
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It's a challenging game! If you want to make it extremely challenging, change to bish and fly mid-early/ EW planes.
It takes about a year + to learn the basics and another year + to learn how to be really good, if that's what you want. You really have to be dedicated to want to be a good fighter. There is also dive bombing skills that need to be learned. I didn't learn dive bombing and base taking strategies till 6 months in when I joined a squad. It was a great experience. They tought me the fine points of the gane.
I think joining squads really helps you learn the game. People.
It's a tough game, but that's what keeps me around. I'll never get tired of shooting down planes.
It's all about how much you put into it with learning. I flew combat flight sim before this and got destroyed when I first started this game. I got killed so many times, but it's what helped me to get better.
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I have to say.. i come across more running then i do good internet pilots. Once i find guys in an area like like to play turny birds i typically stay there. There is a certain squad of players I would really enjoy fighting if it wasnt for hate PM's and constant head ons.
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I am by far not a shark. only training I ever did was when a squadie was trying to teach me how to land a spit9 wheels down. after 3 hours he called me a moron and left. I have yet to land a spit9 wheels down. not a joke.
another tried to teach me how to do a barrel roll. I cant do that either.
semp
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When you have been around for awhile you develop the skill of reading a fight against what you are willing to risk. Experience can become a subtle fun killer as you get older if allowed to in games. You see a lot of vets hovering around a furball like they are waiting for something. Then there are the "sticks" of many ages who just dive in and come out the other end with kills over and over having fun. Lazerr found me one night on the deck fighting 5 cons which was one of the few times I've ever heard him amazed in the game. My answer: "Can't a guy get bored and do something different occasionally?" I got bored one night and picked a fight by myself.....meh.. :huh
Experience (age goes with this to a degree) is killing our sense of personal fun while we look for the perfect moment to match our honest and very private understanding of our own skill levels. Goes along with reaching a tolerance for how much you are willing to invest anymore in getting better with a game. I venture many vets had more fun back when they didn't know how to read the outcomes and spent more time diving into the fray. And now, we get a post like this one..... :O
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I feel if i was a new player coming in now id get fed up and quit because there isnt enough help out there anymore, i remember old time guys like murdr, widewing, creton, mrd, baitbug(who had multiple aliases)and a host of others that were willing to help me when i had no clue what i was doing thats what brought me back to keep playing.
and honestly it only took me about 6 months to become pretty good at 1v1 which is what i found most exciting about the game.
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My personal opinion is that the vast majority of 'good' pilots tend to use a squad or mission as a shield and pick targets of opportunity. Most players in here will run from a 1v1 the second an advantage is lost. This in turn teaches new players that to get good you just stay high, pick and bug out.
Sure there's a ton of people who will flame this post and say, "BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY DID IN WWII!" and my response will be that they didn't get a new plane after they blew up in WWII either. So unless we go to 1 life a frame, or 1 life an hour or something completely idiotic such as that, or begin perking everything not EW so people have to pay for their rides we're not going to see that change any time soon.
I say to the vets and the sharks that think they're good, stay in EW/MW planes, leave the LW stuff to the new guys. Help them be more competitive, and you get a lot more satisfaction shooting down a pony in a plane that tops out at 300 in a dive.
:salute
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I"m definitely not a shark, almost a vet - I play to have fun, so I tend to fly what I like, where I like, and do a lot of stupid stuff to entertain myself (I'm easily amused). Not currently flying, but will definitely be back when AHIII goes live (testing at home when I get time/inclination)
I look forward to dying in as many idiotic ways as I can muster - but I think I'll make a point of detuning 200.
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and honestly it only took me about 6 months to become pretty good at 1v1 which is what i found most exciting about the game.
And this distinguishes you from the people who quit if they can't become aces in 24 hours.
- oldman
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I feel if i was a new player coming in now id get fed up and quit because there isnt enough help out there anymore, ...
I believe the trainers have answered every request for help and there are other players who also help new guys.
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Today's MA is much different then ten years ago. Half the roster have 5 plus years of experience and a good amount I can recall seeing their names back in the aw days. I could only imagine the frustration for a new player jumping into the MA shark tank of today.
To counter this thought, I would be honest to say, this frustration you speak of is the major factor that made me want to stay after my two week trial. Conversely, the lack of someone to play against was the reason I left iRacing after my initial 3 month trial. In iRacing, there was almost no one to race against when you first start out. It wasn't worth my time. To me, the challenge of this game forced me to want to learn and get better. I still remember that first time I got 2 kills in one sortie, and raced back to base so I could see my name in lights.
Now after being here almost a decade, I consider myself a decent stick. I can hold my own with all but the most dedicated 200 hour a month players. Sadly, many of the top scorers don't really want to fight. All they are in it for is the kill, the easier the better. If you get lucky and corner them, frequently they are easy kills because they don't know how to fight from a disadvantage. I live to fight from a disadvantage.
YMMV
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Did you ever play a great console game and then get depressed when you conquered all the levels?
I never want to be the best at this game and never want to see it stop changing, though it's been awhile waiting for AH3.
Every time they changed the game it was like learning a new game and I'm having fun exploring AH3.
But alas the new generations seem to want it easy. Watching my grandson play GTA and just using cheat codes to get what ever he wants would bore me to death but not him.
I see a few new names with enthusiasm playing occasionally and have hope that AH3 will be a turning point for HTC.
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I believe the trainers have answered every request for help and there are other players who also help new guys.
yea but back in the day the DA and TA always had people in it and I didn't have to go to far out of my way looking for help, just pop into the TA and see people practicing and trainers answering questions what seemed like 24/7.
Im not taking a jab at you or any other trainers now i just think the game had more numbers in 07 so the TA and DA wast always a ghost town. I didnt even enter the MA for a month of playing because i had plenty of fun in the old DA where you had to check 6 people to initiate a fight.
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When AH3 goes live, there will be enough free 2 week newbie interest to improve the odds of getting easier kills for less effort. Chances are it will lull a number of the vets back into 1v1 range with them not minding as much getting caught by the vets they have been avoiding.
Then it is up to us to cultivate the newbies or, do our usual of running them out of the game to pump up our egos while blaming Hitech for building a crappy game like we always fall back on.
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When AH3 goes live, there will be enough free 2 week newbie interest to improve the odds of getting easier kills for less effort. Chances are it will lull a number of the vets back into 1v1 range with them not minding as much getting caught by the vets they have been avoiding.
Then it is up to us to cultivate the newbies or, do our usual of running them out of the game to pump up our egos while blaming Hitech for building a crappy game like we always fall back on.
I really appreciate your passion, bustr. And I absolutely agree that if the old vets collectively changed their mindset and went about improving the new-player experience, it would yield in-game improvements for everyone concerned.
However, I don't think it's realistic to approach the problem from a 'players need to change' point of view, because nothing you do or say is going to make enough of a difference to matter. Players are going to play the way they want. I & others browbeat them for not fighting, you and others browbeat them for not leading, and what changes? Nothing.
It is not an insult to HTC or the creative minds backing it to suggest that the game itself needs to be responsible for both recruiting new members and - more importantly - giving them reason to stay (all without completely alienating the existing user base). And I'm sure they're aware of the fact that they can't just hope everyone cares enough about their creation to temper their natural instincts. It would be a very bad business model indeed to rely on the membership to 'act right' in order to retain new players.
We can gripe all we want about how today's gameplay turns off new players - and I absolutely believe it does - but if the issue isn't addressed from within the game itself, I don't hold out much hope for everyone to come together and agree to be 'better players' for the sake of the game. It's not their baby - they don't feel responsible for nursing it - and they shouldn't have to. Most people do not pay $15 / month to take on a PR job. If it's allowed by the game and it's what they like to do they're going to do it.
None of this is to say I disagree with your thoughts. I wish everyone would listen to you... the game would improve dramatically. But they aren't, at least not to the extent necessary to make the kind of change we'd all like to see.
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I venture many vets had more fun back when they didn't know how to read the outcomes and spent more time diving into the fray. And now, we get a post like this one..... :O
For me, it's more... had more fun back then for a minute or two, just to have it dashed by some gang/picker/ho/etc, so I choose otherwise. I can still fight. The difference is, I choose the terms whenever possible. The terms I choose typically do not afford my opponent an opportunity to impress me with his or her internet badassery...which is just as likely to come from a <front quarter deflection shot> better known as a friggin HO, or some other lame gamey excuse for ACM. I'm absolutely certain this irritates the ever lovin peepee out of the typical users of gamey lamey excuses for ACM... but that-is-the-point. :devil
But, when is someone going to define this fight thing everyone keeps whining about not finding. Just so we'll all know. Hey, JMHO but it appears to me this so-called fight, is usually someone failing miserably to line up nicely for you to shoot at, which I happen to know for a fact happens all the stinkin time. Or... maybe it's that Sticky McJerkalot contest that seems so popular. Is it that thing where you ram your plane into totally ridiculous negative G maneuvers that clearly out-clever AND impress the poop out of EVARBUDY? Really, we need to straighten this stuff out... just so we're all on the same page. :angel:
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But, when is someone going to define this fight thing everyone keeps whining about not finding. Just so we'll all know. Hey, JMHO but it appears to me this so-called fight, is usually someone failing miserably to line up nicely for you to shoot at, which I happen to know for a fact happens all the stinkin time. Or... maybe it's that Sticky McJerkalot contest that seems so popular. Is it that thing where you ram your plane into totally ridiculous negative G maneuvers that clearly out-clever AND impress the poop out of EVARBUDY? Really, we need to straighten this stuff out... just so we're all on the same page. :angel:
From what I've seen, the gist of it is we're all apparently supposed to be below 3k AGL, having committed 1v1 fights. Shooting from in front of the 4/8 line makes you a Bad Persontm. That will catch most of the definition.
I'm just happy when my opponents try to kill me. It's up to me to manage the gang/HO/whatever else.
I didn't come in here as a completely green noob, but I really don't see much difference between now and when I came here as far as vets crushing new guys. It happened back then, it happens now. Trainers are just as available today as 7 years ago from what I see.
I don't see the kinds of guys like Levi that people talk about going in under 6 or 7 enemies and killing them all then flying home these days either. Now maybe the Levi level guys were just freaks and one time occurrences, but I don't see that level of play in here anymore. I'd say the top top guys today might be less capable than the ones of yore are reputed to be, but that could be the Bill Brasky effect as well. Haven't seen them can't say.
Wiley.
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H2H was a good start for a new players wanting to try out the game. You could tweak the plane set and also items like ammo load out. I feel that it would be to HTC interest to bring back something similar so that people can have a fun no pay arena to develop their addiction.
Btw I don't see anyone landing high 12 plus kill sorties like back in the day. Personally I haven't match any of my old stats and feel that because of the level of game play that we have today those days are gone. I had multiple sorties in a 16 with 16 kills.
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We have had guys admitting the only reason they became a subscriber was because Hitech eliminated the free to play H2H arenas. Free to play creates a freeloader community with our kind of game with people getting their fix and never moving into the subscriber arenas. AH3 has many things we tested since Aug 2014 with some of them having nothing to do with getting your ego slaughtered 24x7.
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In AW they had an arena for new people. Once you reached a certain number of points you could not re enter the new player arena.
You either had to go to relaxed real or full real. I was rightly assumed you would be flying against others that were new to the game also.
As I remember it was about 10,000 points. Maybe not a bad idea now. And if you tried to log in to the newbie arena after reaching that point you were not allowed.
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You were allowed in, but you didn't get any bullets. I use to spend an hour or so being a tough target for newbis. Helped me learn to avoid, helped new player learn to fight, and made a bunch of friends, many of which joined my squad when they came over to the other arenas.
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Funny thread in a way. If you take Shuffler's analogy to Nintendo Cheat Codes, that was probably the substance of new guy conversation in the MA for years. "There is no way a K4 can outclimb a mustang"..."that guy probably hacked the code to make his plane lighter"..."he has the warp button on his joystick"..."he has a bot aiming for him"... and so on and so forth.
It would seem though that his other point is valid as well, for the un-educated. Guy builds mustangs as models for years. Saw every program on them. Joins AH and immediately feels like the game is off when he can't demolish a Ki-43 in a turn fight. It is the game, not the plane. That why squads are so important to the game. It was not until I was with the few that I really began to understand what the planes could really do. With the swampdragons, we focused on raids, so I got good with rockets and bombs. The few on the other hand flew fighters more than anything else and did training. It was then I learned about torque, managing throttle, what planes cannot turn right in a dive, etc.
IMHO, if you want the game to survive, you have to 1. not be a dick and 2. not be selfish. There will always be turds in the game who enjoy picking guys off the runway, but for most it is just a phase. The game became much more fun to play what someone taught me, over time, how to fight. Heck, I used to roll a P-38 with the 80th, just to get tips on crashing on the runway without exploding, to land some 38 kills <S> fellahs.
No restriction will help. The perk rides, really are not that big of an advantage unless they are in the hands of a few of the players who have reverted to score-wh mode.
Personally I just got back from the middle east, again, and am going to get some family time in before getting back into the game. I left the game because my last two jobs would have AH competing for my fractional family time (MAJ KD for vets).
In the end, it is and remains the people that would draw me back to the game. For 10-years or so, I made some good on-line firends. Had a chance to meet a couple in person. The community is what would pull me back, more so than the game. Really, how many WWII airplane nerds are out there? Can your kids/wife distinguish the lines of a P-51 vs. P38? Lol.
Don't be a dick, welcome new people in, invest time getting to know the new folks. If it had not been for SLAYEM, H, and the other swampy's I don't know how long I would have stayed in the game.
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^ ^ ^ ^ Good points, agreed.
In AW they had an arena for new people. Once you reached a certain number of points you could not re enter the new player arena.
You either had to go to relaxed real or full real. I was rightly assumed you would be flying against others that were new to the game also.
As I remember it was about 10,000 points. Maybe not a bad idea now. And if you tried to log in to the newbie arena after reaching that point you were not allowed.
I missed the AW era, playing offline sims instead and hadn't heard of this until now. You might be on to something, indeed (that's my British word for the day), perhaps not a bad idea now. Particularly with AH3 coming, and a strong possibility of an influx of new blood, which HTC will want to keep for at least that 1 -2 year period they've described their business model being based on for the meat of their turnover/clients.
Should wishlist this one IMO.
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^ ^ ^ ^ Good points, agreed.
I missed the AW era, playing offline sims instead and hadn't heard of this until now. You might be on to something, indeed (that's my British word for the day), perhaps not a bad idea now. Particularly with AH3 coming, and a strong possibility of an influx of new blood, which HTC will want to keep for at least that 1 -2 year period they've described their business model being based on for the meat of their turnover/clients.
Should wishlist this one IMO.
They have this concept in iRacing. The problem is, what if there's no one in the arena? When I tried iRacing, there was no one to race at my level, so I quit.
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Well, an interesting perspective was had this weekend. My nephew was in town visiting and was interested in this game and wanted to fly and kill some things. So I get him strapped in and show him the basic controls. He was OK, but completely new to the sim world. After a couple flights he managed to find an engagement and augered. At which point I received a PM from a very happy 1star noob saying "BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" to which I politely replied I have my nephew in and he's learing to fly, the response was "Tell him I said, "BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"!.
So yea, being that this is the internet, people still want to be an stooge to an 8 year old.
Classy folks.
:furious
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At which point I received a PM from a very happy 1star noob saying "BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" to which I politely replied I have my nephew in and he's learing to fly, the response was "Tell him I said, "BHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"!.
So yea, being that this is the internet, people still want to be an stooge to an 8 year old.
Classy folks.
:furious
What an ass.
It's pathetic really...
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^ ^ ^ ^ Good points, agreed.
I missed the AW era, playing offline sims instead and hadn't heard of this until now. You might be on to something, indeed (that's my British word for the day), perhaps not a bad idea now. Particularly with AH3 coming, and a strong possibility of an influx of new blood, which HTC will want to keep for at least that 1 -2 year period they've described their business model being based on for the meat of their turnover/clients.
Should wishlist this one IMO.
For years I've advocated the creation of a new player's arena styled after Air Warrior's new player's arena. There are dozens of posts I've made through the years on this forum asking for the new player arena to be created as a way to help retain new players and to aid them in getting over the steep learning curve before entering the Lords of the Flies mentality of the MA. The new player arena in AW did help retain a large number of new players as once they left that arena and jumped in one of the main arenas, they were more confident of being successful than they were before taking advantage of the new player arena and less likely to quit the game out of frustration due to the game's difficulty. Once a new player gets over that hurdle, they are more likely to remain a paying customer.
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The DA furball lake filled that roll for a few years. There were whole squads in there and some even thought they were better at the game than the MA vets who dropped in from time to time. I guess they were if it was 12v1 or HOing. But, it gave them a community and for the most part kept them out of the MA. Wasn't a bad place to do a few warm ups before facing the sharks in the MA.
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The DA furball lake filled that roll for a few years. There were whole squads in there and some even thought they were better at the game than the MA vets who dropped in from time to time. I guess they were if it was 12v1 or HOing. But, it gave them a community and for the most part kept them out of the MA. Wasn't a bad place to do a few warm ups before facing the sharks in the MA.
Yup, it was great. The problem is the DA furball area is not set up to make the fights quick anymore. It also encourages ganging, high alt advantage picking, ack hugging, and so on.
I think if Hitech simply just changed all the fields to green, turn off kill shooter, and change the furball area to 4-5 bases 5 miles apart with 0 alt advantage. Then change it to a free for all, It would create quick action, people would have fun, it would discourage team gangs, high alt fighting, ack hugging, and vulching.
The 1v1 area would stay the same. You can still use it like you do now. Only thing that changes is you shoot at a green guy.
I really think a simple change like this would help the DA/FFA attract new players. It would be a lot of fun. People would learn the game. It would be great for a quick warm up.
I also like AKAKs new player arena, and I think it should be set up exactly the same.
People want quick fights when they don't have longer than 30 minutes to play. I think you would see a huge revamp of players who are still getting a feel for the game, it would bring interest back to older players.
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Please don't forget Hitech has a player vs player automated dueling arena for AH3.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,377423.0.html
Don't know the status on it but, he would appreciate feedback since it's beta testing. Take a friend and go test it.
These conversations have traditionally been what he should do back when he still updated AH2 because our point of reference was AH2. Right now AH3's beta testing is real and Hitech is focused on that. The sooner he gets AH3 out the door and stable, the sooner the conversations can get back to what Hitech should have done versus his "current offering". No one knows what AH3 is going to look or play like versus AH2.
We have tested many new things, and Hitech has never made any definitive statements in response to how he will present any of it in AH3.
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Please don't forget Hitech has a player vs player automated dueling arena for AH3.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,377423.0.html
Don't know the status on it but, he would appreciate feedback since it's beta testing. Take a friend and go test it.
These conversations have traditionally been what he should do back when he still updated AH2 because our point of reference was AH2. Right now AH3's beta testing is real and Hitech is focused on that. The sooner he gets AH3 out the door and stable, the sooner the conversations can get back to what Hitech should have done versus his "current offering". No one knows what AH3 is going to look or play like versus AH2.
We have tested many new things, and Hitech has never made any definitive statements in response to how he will present any of it in AH3.
We know what it overall "looks" like....I'm interested in "think CT".
The 1v1 arena is a start, a matchmaking arena is for sure needed.
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The DA furball lake filled that roll for a few years. There were whole squads in there and some even thought they were better at the game than the MA vets who dropped in from time to time. I guess they were if it was 12v1 or HOing. But, it gave them a community and for the most part kept them out of the MA. Wasn't a bad place to do a few warm ups before facing the sharks in the MA.
Was a poor place for people to learn from though. You really want them to learn to fly and fight... back then those folks did not do that.
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Should we all start sucking?
I'm doing my part! :aok