Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Traveler on July 10, 2016, 09:48:28 AM
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Seems that on July 7, two professional Airline pilots working for Delta, kissed their aviation careers goodbye. When both somehow mistook KRCA for KRAP and landed at the Military field. You got to love it. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiuwf7RkenNAhUJJh4KHekqAngQFggsMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fus%2F2016%2F07%2F08%2Fntsb-says-delta-plane-landed-at-wrong-airport.html&usg=AFQjCNGXDiLSfTvsGxuObGtkVungIvNJpA&sig2=mUUaAPioZ2cMvGN_uDtMGg&bvm=bv.126130881,d.dmo (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiuwf7RkenNAhUJJh4KHekqAngQFggsMAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fus%2F2016%2F07%2F08%2Fntsb-says-delta-plane-landed-at-wrong-airport.html&usg=AFQjCNGXDiLSfTvsGxuObGtkVungIvNJpA&sig2=mUUaAPioZ2cMvGN_uDtMGg&bvm=bv.126130881,d.dmo)
If you just do a google look up for Delta lands at wrong airfield, you will see that they seem to do this a lot.
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At least the airport name fits the story since both pilots are in a lot of KRAP now
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Looks like it was a 'Bus.
In any case, if the union has any say--which is usually the case at a Major--they'll probably be retrained, put on probation, and put back to flight status, as they should be.
It happens. No sense firing them as you just spent a fortune to "train" them--and they'll be the only two pilots in the entire company who are guaranteed to never do this again.
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Looks like it was a 'Bus.
In any case, if the union has any say--which is usually the case at a Major--they'll probably be retrained, put on probation, and put back to flight status, as they should be.
It happens. No sense firing them as you just spent a fortune to "train" them--and they'll be the only two pilots in the entire company who are guaranteed to never do this again.
That's if the FAA lets them keep their ticket? I want to see the transcript from the CVR When the Captain says something like, "what's that flashing red light over in the tower there and give me Flaps 40" According to reports from the airmen in the tower, they lit up the cockpit pretty good with both flashing red and steady red while the aircraft was approaching. Both airports have navigation aids / fixes on the airports. Got to think that Delta might ask the question is this Captain worth retraining?
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Well, from what I read... yes it is a pretty bad move to land at the wrong airfield, but it's also only 10 miles from the actual airfield, oriented in the same direction, and in South Dakota, what do you really have to go off of for landmarks. You're thinking the computer says 10 miles, but my runways right here...
Now, I would probably confirm my position and descent with ATC at that point since my instruments and my visual are in conflict. But apparently this has happened a few times at that airbase.
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That's if the FAA lets them keep their ticket? I want to see the transcript from the CVR When the Captain says something like, "what's that flashing red light over in the tower there and give me Flaps 40" According to reports from the airmen in the tower, they lit up the cockpit pretty good with both flashing red and steady red while the aircraft was approaching. Both airports have navigation aids / fixes on the airports. Got to think that Delta might ask the question is this Captain worth retraining?
The FAA will pink slip them. If they show a cooperative attitude this will not be career-ending.
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Well, from what I read... yes it is a pretty bad move to land at the wrong airfield, but it's also only 10 miles from the actual airfield, oriented in the same direction, and in South Dakota, what do you really have to go off of for landmarks. You're thinking the computer says 10 miles, but my runways right here...
Now, I would probably confirm my position and descent with ATC at that point since my instruments and my visual are in conflict. But apparently this has happened a few times at that airbase.
Anyone who has flown long enough has had this come close to happening to them more than once, myself included.
Fatigue coupled with an optical illusion can be a very powerful inducement to landing at the wrong place.
As I have repeatedly said on this forum: human factors can only be mitigated--never eliminated.
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Anyone who has flown long enough has had this come close to happening to them more than once, myself included.
Fatigue coupled with an optical illusion can be a very powerful inducement to landing at the wrong place.
As I have repeatedly said on this forum: human factors can only be mitigated--never eliminated.
wow, my own experience is very different, I flew the line with Eastern and after they went belly up I flew with another corporate carrier. Did 38 years in the in the front office and never even came close to putting it into the wrong field. Just different experiences I guess. I agree with you on human factors but there were two checking and double checking. Like I said, that CVR transcript will be a very interesting read.
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Well, from what I read... yes it is a pretty bad move to land at the wrong airfield, but it's also only 10 miles from the actual airfield, oriented in the same direction, and in South Dakota, what do you really have to go off of for landmarks. You're thinking the computer says 10 miles, but my runways right here...
Now, I would probably confirm my position and descent with ATC at that point since my instruments and my visual are in conflict. But apparently this has happened a few times at that airbase.
I've flown into both KRCA and KRAP, in both good weather and bad and during day and night operations. The two airport environments are distinctly different, KRAP has two runways, with the airport environment on the West side of the field, while KRCA has only one runway with the airport environment on the east side of the field. At night, KRAP is harder to find because of the surrounding city complex lights pushing right up against the boundary of the airport, but KRCA was in a very open area.
My guess is that the flight fell victim to automation, with one of perhaps both pilots thinking that RCA stood for Rapid City Airport and programmed that as their final way-point.
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I would REALLY love to read the transcripts as well.
Visuals, I get it, it's easy to be deceived, but what about checking your NAVAIDs? Even during a visual recovery here at home field, I've got my TACAN dialed up, backed up with a waypoint offset to the initial. 10 DME would be fairly noticeable, and with two pilots, it's not like they're THAT task-saturated.
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wow, my own experience is very different, I flew the line with Eastern and after they went belly up I flew with another corporate carrier. Did 38 years in the in the front office and never even came close to putting it into the wrong field. Just different experiences I guess. I agree with you on human factors but there were two checking and double checking. Like I said, that CVR transcript will be a very interesting read.
Perhaps airports were easier to spot back then--you probably didn't have as much light pollution. You weren't being overloaded with all the information we have to process now, either I bet. It is easy to get caught up in the box punching buttons instead of just reverting to the basics.
You cannot tell me you never once were disoriented at night. We have all been there. I know you have been, too.
You, know, looking in the distance for the airport and realizing you're looking PAST it or vice versa.
Heck, going into Lagos one of the main roads looks just like 18L and is aligned with it almost perfectly--it's just two miles short. The first time I saw that on a not-quite-IMC approach at night it was a major, "Woah. Hold on a second here," moment--and I have flown in there 100 times.
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I would REALLY love to read the transcripts as well.
Visuals, I get it, it's easy to be deceived, but what about checking your NAVAIDs? Even during a visual recovery here at home field, I've got my TACAN dialed up, backed up with a waypoint offset to the initial. 10 DME would be fairly noticeable, and with two pilots, it's not like they're THAT task-saturated.
Visual illusions are a killer. That's why we emphasize them so much in training.
And judging distance is one of the hardest things to do--especially at night or in low visibility. That's why most operators have banned circling approaches under TERPS. It is quite easy to wander outside the protected area--and we have the broken metal and dead bodies to prove it.
Finger fires cause many problems. Too much head down messing with the box instead of just reverting to green needles and flying like you learned as a noob. When you look up and your brain doesn't agree with your eyes often the human tendency is to believe the eyes. That's when you can wind up landing at the wrong airport.
Maybe they were on a non-precision visual and the PF was looking outside thinking he had it nailed. Maybe, as someone mentioned above, they had the wrong airport in the box. All I know is that it can happen to anyone, especially if you're tired.
At the end of the day, the NFP has to back up the PF with the NAVs. Even then you can still screw it up.
When in doubt, go around. Sometimes that's the best option.
Unfortunately, if you don't recognize the error you're hosed.
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Perhaps airports were easier to spot back then--you probably didn't have as much light pollution. You weren't being overloaded with all the information we have to process now, either I bet. It is easy to get caught up in the box punching buttons instead of just reverting to the basics.
You cannot tell me you never once were disoriented at night. We have all been there. I know you have been, too.
You, know, looking in the distance for the airport and realizing you're looking PAST it or vice versa.
Heck, going into Lagos one of the main roads looks just like 18L and is aligned with it almost perfectly--it's just two miles short. The first time I saw that on a not-quite-IMC approach at night it was a major, "Woah. Hold on a second here," moment--and I have flown in there 100 times.
Yea, way back when I retired July 2013, we didn't have any of the new modern equipment you have today. Give me a break. These two clowns punched in the wrong way point and sat there fat dumb and happy until the aircraft was surrounded on the ground by fire trucks and equipment blocking them from moving. That used to be a SAC base, wonder if it's part of that new organization that replaced SAC. Wonder what Homeland security was thinking ? Do you think they got Nukes at Ellsworth?
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You must've been a hell of a leader, Traveler. I don't doubt you created a great sense of unity and esprit amongst those who have worked for you. I do wonder if it's for the reasons you might think.
Glad you made it through your career unscathed.
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I guess everyone has different standards. I know little myself so I will take the opinion of the pilot I know the best and who has standards he sets for himself that are of the highest possible.
My brother, Brent, said one word when I talked to him about this very same occurrence, "Unforgivable".
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Yea, way back when I retired July 2013, we didn't have any of the new modern equipment you have today. Give me a break. These two clowns punched in the wrong way point and sat there fat dumb and happy until the aircraft was surrounded on the ground by fire trucks and equipment blocking them from moving. That used to be a SAC base, wonder if it's part of that new organization that replaced SAC. Wonder what Homeland security was thinking ? Do you think they got Nukes at Ellsworth?
Ah, sorry. Thought you were an old crusty. Lol. Mea culpa.
I dunno what they did, but it can happen to anyone...so I will learn from it and not be cocky that I haven't done it yet.
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I guess everyone has different standards. I know little myself so I will take the opinion of the pilot I know the best and who has standards he sets for himself that are of the highest possible.
My brother, Brent, said one word when I talked to him about this very same occurrence, "Unforgivable".
No offense here but... Yeah, Brent has never had an oh sh-- moment. Give us a break, bruh. He knows better and I bet if you ask him he will share a few of those stories, because we ALL have them. Anyone who says otherwise is a damned liar.
There are those that have, those that will, and those who almost did/will. Experience is still the best teacher and lessons are often learned by coming awful close to making a boneheaded mistake.
I will say it again. Human factors can only be mitigated, never eliminated.
These things happen. We can learn from them and try not to copy these errors ourselves. Getting puffed up and tempting the gods with hubris is a surefire way to bust one's ass.
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You must've been a hell of a leader, Traveler. I don't doubt you created a great sense of unity and esprit amongst those who have worked for you. I do wonder if it's for the reasons you might think.
Glad you made it through your career unscathed.
:cheers:
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No offense here but... Yeah, Brent has never had an oh sh-- moment. Give us a break, bruh. He knows better and I bet if you ask him he will share a few of those stories, because we ALL have them. Anyone who says otherwise is a damned liar.
There are those that have, those that will, and those who almost did/will. Experience is still the best teacher and lessons are often learned by coming awful close to making a boneheaded mistake.
I will say it again. Human factors can only be mitigated, never eliminated.
These things happen. We can learn from them and try not to copy these errors ourselves. Getting puffed up and tempting the gods with hubris is a surefire way to bust one's ass.
You have made assumptions I did not lead you to. I never said he was perfect or that he has not had an "XX XXXX" moment. I specifically said and only said that this mistake is unforgivable according to him.
Since I know my brother, and you do not let me explain what that means coming from him. If he made that mistake he would expect to be fired over it.
I find your post insulting sir. Especially for what I put in red.