General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: MADe on August 01, 2016, 10:42:52 AM
Title: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 01, 2016, 10:42:52 AM
I decided to revisit this 1 more time, I kind of wrote it off due to the accident factor here. 1 and done!
I have been looking at closed loops for just the cpu. It would be equivalent costs for air or water cooling. I like the idea of buying something that's already primed and sealed. But on a number of units, I see peeps squawking bad parts, split hoses......
What is it I want to see in these units to convince me they ain't gonna leak, EVER!? I have a HAF 932 case and a 4 fan radiator will fit on top case just fine.........
so far its an ARTIC brand for my choice. :salute
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Skuzzy on August 01, 2016, 11:13:36 AM
The only CPU cooler I would recommend, which would NEVER leak, is made by Noctua (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA9PV3Y62117&cm_re=noctua-_-35-608-045-_-Product). :)
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Bizman on August 01, 2016, 11:38:30 AM
Yupp. Liquids and electronics just don't mix well.
That Noctua was set as counterpart in a comparison review of liquid coolers. Not only did it cool at least as well as the wet ones, it also was quieter.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Skuzzy on August 01, 2016, 11:49:21 AM
It is the one I use on my systems. Inside the Fractal Design case, I have, you cannot hear it run.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 01, 2016, 12:53:37 PM
Now skuzzy do I have to quote rule 4. he he :salute
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 01, 2016, 12:54:42 PM
Yupp. Liquids and electronics just don't mix well.
That Noctua was set as counterpart in a comparison review of liquid coolers. Not only did it cool at least as well as the wet ones, it also was quieter.
You hav'em link to said comparisons?
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Skuzzy on August 01, 2016, 01:44:37 PM
Now skuzzy do I have to quote rule 4. he he :salute
Actually, I answered with the best answer I could, but you could technically nail me with a violation of rule #2. :) Then again, I could have hit you with a rule #5 violation...technically speaking.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 01, 2016, 02:20:18 PM
LMAO :salute
I needed a good chuckle.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Skuzzy on August 01, 2016, 02:43:19 PM
:D
If you really want to get down to it. The latest generation air coolers, such as the one I linked to, are liquid coolers. They use heat pipes, which contain a liquid. They are just more portable than the radiator based coolers.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Gman on August 01, 2016, 02:56:42 PM
I ran a Noctua NHD14 for 4 years on a system that was o/c from 3.8 up to 4.4, and only switched it off when the power went out due to storms - guys with AIO coolers or closed loops could overclock that same chip up to 4.6, 4.7 at most, but for the associated cost, pita, and risk of leaks, why bother.
I'd considered doing a loop in one of my systems just to see if it performed much better, still have 2 EK water blocks for the 1080 cards, but put a D15 cooler on that cpu instead, only a mild overclock, but it works pretty well.
I put the first AIO I've bought in a system recently too, NZXT Kraken - for the money, may as well have just bought another D15. The Nocuta ARE ugly as hell though, painting the beige fans or changing them out helps. A bit. If you have a closed case, it doesn't really matter anyway, and so far as sound goes, the Noctua CPU coolers I never found to be really that loud in the first place.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Bizman on August 02, 2016, 10:53:24 AM
It was in Mikrobitti magazine #3/2015: https://summa.talentum.fi/article/mb/uusimmat/viileammin-vedella/236877 (https://summa.talentum.fi/article/mb/uusimmat/viileammin-vedella/236877)
Since you'd have to register to read the article and online translators don't translate Finnish well to any language, here's a summary:
Noctua NH-D15 vs. SilverStone Tundra TD02-Lite, LC-Power LC-CC-120-LiCo and Antec Kühler H2O 950. The Noctua was the quietest, 34.1 dB idle/46.8 full load vs. 47.7/54,8, 40.1/54.9 and 45.3/59.6. The NH-D15 also was the coolest at full CPU load. The liquid coolers were of closed loop type for easy install and they all were of the same price range.
You might also like to read this, especially the temperature and noise charts plus the conclusion: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-h70-liquid-cooling-radiator,2757-6.html (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-h70-liquid-cooling-radiator,2757-6.html)
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Krusty on August 02, 2016, 11:29:33 AM
I've been using the Antec Kuhler H2O 620 closed circuit loop on my GPU for a while now with good/great results. I'm not using it to overclock or anything -- I'm just replacing a whirlwind-sound-level stock fan and on hot summer days with no AC it would really drown out any enjoyment I had playing games. Some copper heatsinks for the RAM and this keeps me on moderate GPU temps even at max load, and I can hear the game I'm trying to enjoy.
No leaks or drips or anything. I ordered that back in 2012 (dayum, hard to believe it's been that long!) so take this as a testimonial for reliability. I do sometimes have to remove the fan and vaccuum any lint/hair off the radiator, but you'd have to do that anyways.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Gman on August 02, 2016, 11:32:46 AM
Using the H70 as an example isn't a very good example of an AIO cooler - those smaller units, especially the older ones don't perform nearly as well as the newer, larger ones. Compare a newer 280mm sized unit from say Swiftek, NZXT, or even Corsair to the D15, and you'll find that they perform largely the same - you can usually push a CPU a bit higher with the AIO cooler if you crank its settings, but not a whole lot. The smaller H70/80s will work, and allow modest o/c, but IMO if you're going that route you may as well have stuck to air cooling in the first place.
There is a huge difference between all in one h20 coolers and custom loops with their own separate res, pumps, and water blocks. The cost goes way up, as does the o/c potential, but it's still a pita, lots of fittings and piping to do, and with each one so increases the risk of a leak or failure IMO.
The shop I used told me that they've had very, very few AIO coolers fail and leak, but you can read on various forums that while uncommon, it still happens frequently enough. I look at like this - if you can afford a custom h20 loop, you can afford for it to leak and fail and replace things anyway, or if you're into high o/c, you should expect failures anyway, leaks or otherwise. The D14/D15 is probably a better/safer option for most typical pc gamers than an AIO, however the AIO now are pretty reliable, but I keep an eye on the one I have now a lot more than I look at the other noctua cooled systems.
There are a pile of articles/comparisons of the D15 vs higher end AIO - http://www.relaxedtech.com/reviews/noctua/nh-d15-versus-closed-loop-liquid-coolers/3
Most give the D15 either 3rd, 2nd, sometimes 1st place - considering it's air, and much cheaper...
My D15's are only a couple months old, but my D14 is 4 years old, and still has 2 years warranty left, that I'm pretty confident won't be needed.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 02, 2016, 03:16:38 PM
hmm! I wonder if I should just buy a refrigerator and mount he stuff their. Couple of holes to pass cables.....or just place the HAF case in a refrigerator....
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Gman on August 02, 2016, 05:59:28 PM
I've seen pictures of that being done - entire PC inside a cooling box. No idea on how it works.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Drane on August 02, 2016, 07:12:06 PM
hmm! I wonder if I should just buy a refrigerator and mount he stuff their. Couple of holes to pass cables.....or just place the HAF case in a refrigerator....
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Bizman on August 03, 2016, 10:47:52 AM
Wouldn't there be an issue with condensing humidity?
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Chalenge on August 03, 2016, 11:30:57 AM
I think you're better off just going with Noctua, I tried the phase change approach and even when you can avoid moisture creep the extreme approach eventually leads to material break-downs in the CPU and motherboard, or GPU and card. Noctua provides one of the best thermal mating surfaces available (mirror-like) and even beats AIO solutions for temperature reductions. The Noctua fans are quiet and efficient also.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Gman on August 03, 2016, 12:10:58 PM
Anandtech, TW, o/c.net, all the larger HW sites, it seems to be a toss up between small AIO and the Noctua, a few small mods to the Noctua/air units, and they can outperform the larger AIO like the Swifteks/X61/etc, but stock they don't, and again, on an older 3820, 6700, 6800, and 6850 all of which I have, I haven't seen the D15 or 14 before it be anything but a few steps behind in terms of stable o/c numbers. I'm not going to extremes, just using the same stock coolers I bought with the same thermal compounds.
I still prefer the D15, even though it is large, at least most of the new MB have figured out how not to have it block PCI-E slots, and RAM has adapted as well so there usually isn't any clearance issues. That was the only problem I had with them before, and it's largely solved/gone now anyway. It's quieter than the X61, Corsair, and Swiftek I have, less worry, less space taken up in the case (no rad) overall, and just a safer and better way to go. I only have one system now on an AIO, and I may just sell it and get another D15 or put my old D14 on it, as it's just a mild o/c anyway.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Bizman on August 03, 2016, 12:40:58 PM
Liquid or air? There's been many excellent comments about air being as effective as an AIO.
I'll add one more for air: No matter which brand of air cooler you choose, there's one thing for sure: If you don't seat it properly, your computer won't start, or it will BSOD and shut down immediately to prevent burning the CPU. I believe that has been the standard for about a decade now.
Of course the same applies to AIO's.
BUT: If you seat the cooler properly but manage to crack a corner or the end of a hose, it may not start leaking immediately. When it does, the leak may be so small the liquid evaporates instead of making ponds. Troubleshooting random locks/BSOD's/freezes in such a case would be extremely difficult.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 03, 2016, 11:23:41 PM
Yes there has been some good subject watermelon chat, very helpful. Altho I still cannot make up my mind. The Nocturna is rated #1 as an air cooler. Its definitely matching many of the liquid loopers. I really do wanna push the cpu too 5GHz tho.....on air cooling, 4.4GHz seems to be the wall.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Chalenge on August 04, 2016, 07:18:38 AM
MADe, the oldest system I have had a simple link&sync OC applied to it for years and years, but when I updated it to W10 I had to remove all of that because it would not run stable (tons of BSODs). I tried everything like reseating the CPU, heatsink, and the power section and system chip thermal strips, but it works now only at stock speeds. I expect it to fail at any time, really. Long story short your system will last longer without OC.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 04, 2016, 09:19:37 AM
true but done right, it will last enough for my purposes.
machine I'm on right now is 9 years +. I OC'ed 1st thing, its entire life has been OC'ed. Turning off most of the stuff is key, no HT, CIEST, No core parking. Set it up to just go mode and let it run...no auto nada.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 04, 2016, 10:15:38 PM
Has anybody seen a setup where they put a cooler on both sides of the mobo trapping the cpu and seat between them?
I'm wondering if I could get two identcle 120mm AIO's and pinch the cpu with them....
OK check this out. Did one of you guys mention this model number? http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Cases-and-Cooling/Thermalright-Inferno-IFX-14-CPU-Cooler-Review/Installation?destination=node%2F37388%3Fpcper_ajax_tabs_block_tab%3D0%26referer%3Dnode%252F37388%26args%3D
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 06, 2016, 11:43:31 PM
dang I went item by item thru the best of the list provided by biz, maybe top 6. half are air coolers, the best looper is also the nosiest, still have not decided. I think maybe I need the board in my hands to take a good look. I got this itch, I wanna put a looper on both sides of cpu and mobo. I will need to make my own heat sink that mesh with mobos backside and the loopers. Saw what others have done, a lot nuttier than what I'm thinking. 2 identical 120mm loopers, 180" opposed..........
My current build has a fan with ducting right at the backside cpu spot. The HAF case has a built in cutout. Its worth 2-5C.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Bizman on August 07, 2016, 03:05:08 AM
MADe, this one thing popped in my mind: The idea of liquid cooling is to transfer the heat from the core to the cooler fins via hoses, and the fins are cooled with a fan. How does a modern air cooler differ from that? The heat is transferred via heat pipes to the fan cooled fins. The main difference is the length of the pipes/hoses and the lack of hose connectors and clamps. The stuff inside the pipes is most likely different to the cooling liquid which is basically distilled water and some additives.
So if we think that a heat pipe cooler is similar to an AIO, the main difference is where the heated exhaust air ends to. That's where AIO's win by design, they don't blow hot air inside the case. However that issue can easily be fought with an exhaust case fan right behind the air cooler. Also bear in mind that the more fans you use, the quieter your system is at a set airflow rate.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 07, 2016, 09:26:30 AM
yes, whether a an air cooler or liquid cooler radiator, they both are dependent on the ambient air around them.
The modern air coolers that use vapor are, I think, using the advantage of liquid changes of state, ie liquid to gas. It requires 10X the heat to get liquid to go to a gas. Modern refrigeration principle.
Liquid cooling appears to be about how fast you can cool down a working cpu that goes idle. So where both approachs get the same results in the end, liquids return cpu to cool faster. My take on it anyway. Wonder if I put a radiator with fans inside a fridge, ran long hoses......................he he
These new broadwells are packed tighter than ever. Main reason they appear not to OC easily. If I am gonna go there, gonna get there with a plan. Plan may meet Murphy, but............
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: Bizman on August 07, 2016, 11:19:11 AM
Here's some further thinking about the coolers:
As I said, liquid coolers blow the hot air directly out of the case. Now, since many of them actually have two large fans, the negative air pressure is higher than what a single case fan would produce. Thus the airflow inside the case is faster which also lowers the inside temperature of the case, making the cooler more effective. So adding exhaust fans to an air cooled system should result the same.
There's quite a many variables in comparing coolers. As the example above states, testing inside a certain case doesn't necessarily do justice to air coolers unless the exhaust airflow is compensated, i.e. there's the same amount of similar exhaust fans than the AIO has. An open test bench in a large room would give more comparable results, but all the tests I've read about have been performed inside a good quality case.
Title: Re: h 2 o cooling
Post by: MADe on August 23, 2016, 11:21:18 PM
Although I've only owned it for about 5 months, so far it's be great with no problems. However, I will admit if you have a small case it might be hard to run/bend the hoses as they're rather stiff.