Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Viper61 on August 11, 2016, 09:12:26 AM
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Have to admit I let this one get past me to this point.
Big changes to the setup and the point system introduced by AKWarHwk and company.
Have to wait and see if the new point setup has the intended effects. I hope it does. But I apploud the efforts <<S>> The FSO needs new ideas and concepts to move it forward and this is one big bold change. I highly encourage all in the community to closely read the scenario setup and especially the point rules.
To many changes to highlight here so you need to read them, understand them and then brief them to your squads. This isn't the old point standard any longer.
Sides win by points and this new point method will make some types of silly operations a thing of the past if you expect to win. Again long over due and a great move away from historical reenactments of battles won and lost and a move towards each side having an even chance to win with a historical flavor of a point in time in WWII.
The only request I have is that I would like us to go back to listing out the points after each frame is complete. That served as a public "AAR" to your plan and execution of that plan by the side. It also serves to guide the next frames CIC's plan with what worked or didn't, aggressiveness and method.
Nicely done CM's nicely done. <S>
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The new system looks mostly good, and I'm interested how it works out.
What I do not like at all is the no value for kills by the fighters on other fighters, except by the ace.
Given the distances involved there will likely not be any second sorties by the Allies, therefore once the bombers are gone (either out of range or killed) there is no point in fighting. The whole event could be over by T-60. This is lame.
Also, the landing bonus for fighters is essentially useless.
Fighter aircraft will receive safe recovery points bases on the largest set number of fighters. i.e. 102 Axis fighter safe recovery points valued at 1 pts. ea. 96 Allied fighters will be valued at 1.06 pts. ea.
Why even bother writing some convoluted rule when you could have said that the bonus for fighters is zero, which it effectively is. (102 x 1= 102 : 96 x 1.06 = 101.76)
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I'm stupid. Please provide a link to where you are finding this Devil.
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I'm stupid. Please provide a link to where you are finding this Devil.
http://www.ahevents.org/fso-current-next-event.html
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Also, the landing bonus for fighters is essentially useless.Why even bother writing some convoluted rule when you could have said that the bonus for fighters is zero, which it effectively is. (102 x 1= 102 : 96 x 1.06 = 101.76)
Isn't it to make the point value of each fighter for each side proportionally the same? With the assumption that not all 102 axis or 96 Allied fighters will land. But if they did the points would then be equal. As opposed to 1pt for each plane no matter the side or amount rolled. So with 100% recovery in the example above the Allies, even though they recovered all their planes, would be at a 6pt deficit.
I may be totally wrong and the example is not clear, but that would be how I would interpret it.
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I read it as 102 Axis and 96 Allied fighters landed - then doing the math. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I understood of what was written. Your interpretation makes more sense though, so hopefully I'm wrong.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think giving a landing bonus to fighters is even worse than not having one. With a landing bonus, fighters only have incentive to land and not to fight.
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The setup is a good one but I would like to see something added for killing other fighters in future setups.
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Some clarification on that would be nice, if you get more for landing and not killing, than you would for killing 2 and dieing, it sounds like you would be making people avoid combat.
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So...either we (the japs) kill every bomber and don't allow any bombers to drop AND recover all our fighters or risk losing the frame...the concept of no points for fighter kills is unacceptable... I read and re-read the writeup...
If I was CIC this month I would be totally pissed...here we are in bamboo and rice paper planes...that catch on fire very easy...we have 18 planes capable of easily dispatching the bombers and 80 that will be kinda hard pressed unless in the right hands... like most PTO setups the jap fighters will be devastated by the Allied fighters... We will land less than 20% of our fighters and the Allies will win every frame by huge margins....
Guess that's what we get for handing the Allies their butts last month in the BoB :ahand
I am a big fan of PTO setups...this is a setup for failure :rolleyes:
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Possibly the worst set up ever here. Just give the Allies the victory on points every frame - we don't care about that - but when 'scoring' is put above 'action' and 'incentitive' to fly 120 minutes of the frame - someone needs their head checked.
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Possibly the worst set up ever here. Just give the Allies the victory on points every frame - we don't care about that - but when 'scoring' is put above 'action' and 'incentitive' to fly 120 minutes of the frame - someone needs their head checked.
:aok
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I believe that the CM's are looking for a way to have victory attainable for either side.
Now is this the way to do it? Its seems like it may not be. Maybe it needs a closer look and adjustments elsewhere. They already added the N1K2 to the planeset to help address the usual lopsided aircraft available.
The CM's are trying their best to make this enjoyable for all. Lets give this a chance and then make comments and adjust as necessary.
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If I am capable of flying I'll be axis. With that being said I think the rules are rubbish. But I also plan to kill them all and let the points gods sort them out. If its screwed we will quickly find out.
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Coming from a squad that is normally axis and actively hunts the opposing fighters I am very disappointed... Yeah the points will show how screwed we will be...up thread I said it...this is what we get for thrashing the Allies in the Battle of Britain :noid
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The only concern imo when considering the current population and state of the union should be Action. Action, and did I mention Action? Incentives that are counter flight/fight should not be being considered at this juncture.
When we put you (Allies) to bed early tonight - I only can hope that your 'points' sooth that wound.
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Stampf you were saying?
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Seems to me like there was a lot of action everywhere. Last night was pretty fun (and I was only in a bomber!) ! Looking fwd to frame 2! :joystick: :airplane:
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JG54 had plenty of action last night. we had sheep action, we had people trying to kill us action, we had drop our bombs on stuff and blow it up action, and we had try to get plane home action. since I mentioned action 5 times, i'd consider that a bunch of action!
now we have tired pilots, dirty and tired sheep and dirty planes! cant wait for Friday! :x
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Stampf you were saying?
Don't think I was unclear.
And I can not follow up due to the fact that the game crashed me to desktop 15 minutes into the frame and I was unable to get back in time thus missed the entire frame - but did get some good sleep.
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I think event designers need to rethink the merits of side splits that aren't 50/50. With the low player base, is it really wise to give any side a 15-20 man advantage by design?
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The action was there, but forcing a focus on the bombers for all of the Axis points does not work. You simply cannot ignore the higher Corsairs and 38's while trying to focus on and shoot down an A-20 or B-25 for the points.
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Between us and unforgiven I think we were outnumbered 3 to 1 by allied fighters for tg attack...when we found the attack... :noid
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I didn't mean to imply you weren't clear, my point was the combat was in no way unlike every other FSO. When the enemy was sighted combat was joined. I personally believe that most of the players didn't even take notice of the new points rule except for the few on these boards that get into the who won and who lost aspect of FSO.
I have been on both sides of this situation and it dosent really matter to me who scores more points. It does however matter if its going to take players away from the event and I agree with you it does need to be addressed.
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Devil, yes it does.
When one side has to only defend and has no need to staff bomber positions.
It's crystal clear that giving equal numbers in this situation would only ruin the frame for all the bomber guys as they would only be meat for all the extra enemy fighters that the escorts would have no chance to counter.
Way..... Getting through the fighter sweeps and escort is exactly the intent.
Flying unopposed to the bombers would not be any challenge.
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Between us and unforgiven I think we were outnumbered 3 to 1 by allied fighters for tg attack...when we found the attack... :noid
Welcome to the club, think every member of JG11 and POTW was fighting 2 or 3 at a time....was fun :rock
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3 to 1 with fighters not worth anything... :noid I never said it wasn't fun...it was disheartening...I have a squad that actively hunts and kills fighters in FSO... Its what we do...we had to NOT engage fighters...do to them being worthless... And after the 25 or 30 of them dove on us as we ran from them to bombers it was over... :bhead
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Way..... Getting through the fighter sweeps and escort is exactly the intent.
I could not agree with you more. Look for adjusted tactics next week. :aok
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3 to 1 with fighters not worth anything... :noid I never said it wasn't fun...it was disheartening...I have a squad that actively hunts and kills fighters in FSO... Its what we do...we had to NOT engage fighters...do to them being worthless... And after the 25 or 30 of them dove on us as we ran from them to bombers it was over... :bhead
Maybe it was just our position at the start of that fight but most of us were fully engaged by fighters so leaving to go hit buffs would have been a mistake in SA....doesn't help with score but we couldn't have got to the buffs without bringing the cap fighters down. (Hogs showed up a good 10 minutes prior to a buff sighting)
I could not agree with you more. Look for adjusted tactics next week. :aok
My piggy senses are already going on this :aok
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Ya know, I really don't care about the points either.
I think that if you set point values and focus on scoring you miss out on what the real objective should be. Making a plan and executing it with and against some of the best players in the game. Hitting or defending your targets, keeping your charges alive and doing your best to survive the fight and land that bird by the end of the frame. When it's all done and you see the AAR you can tell just how good or bad it all went. They don't post the score at the end of the frame's because the AAR tells most of the story and the rest is told on the board on the how's and why's we did what we did. I lost all 3 of my bombers before I could drop, but it was a helluva fight. I wish I could have taken down a hangar or got a kill but nope, not this time. Are points what you need to validate how much fun you had? Is that how you measure success in FSO? I know the difference between a good frame and a bad one. I fly with some of the best squaddies in the game. I drink a rotating assortment of my favorite barley pop, we do a shot after take of ( tequila for me) and I get crazy with the check 6 button! I'll spot my adversaries 1000 points just as long as I get the chance to laugh at our silliness in flight and work as a team when it counts. In combat it's about attrition, not addition. <<S>>
p.s. Check 6!
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Well, it was a target rich environment :x
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd476/AcesHighDitto/Dont%20look%20UP.jpg)
Lot of use of the HAT switch as you are looking for bombers...
OH there they are
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd476/AcesHighDitto/A20s%20at%2014K.jpg)
It is very challenging to attack bombers when there are so many fighters around..
But you can get some shots on
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd476/AcesHighDitto/Dog%20Fight%20with%20Snibbo.jpg)
Was a fun night....
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Maybe I am missing something, buuuttt. If you kill a fighter, your team doesn't get a point, but it prevents a recovery bonus, so by that, you "are" getting points for hitting fighters in a round about sort of way... If your team kills a hanger, or a bomber, you DO get points, so I am really not sure why people are upset with the scoring.
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Maybe I am missing something, buuuttt. If you kill a fighter, your team doesn't get a point, but it prevents a recovery bonus, so by that, you "are" getting points for hitting fighters in a round about sort of way... If your team kills a hanger, or a bomber, you DO get points, so I am really not sure why people are upset with the scoring.
It places the value in escaping an engagement instead of winning it.
Furthermore, it discourages post T+60 action when the max landing bonus is had when RTBing from the primary mission.
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It places the value in escaping an engagement instead of winning it.
Furthermore, it discourages post T+60 action when the max landing bonus is had when RTBing from the primary mission.
How? If you deny them 2 points by killing 2 guys and landing, it affects the score the same amount of points as if you got a point for killing both of them. The logic's just reversed.
Wiley.
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How? If you deny them 2 points by killing 2 guys and landing, it affects the score the same amount of points as if you got a point for killing both of them. The logic's just reversed.
Wiley.
In individual combat it might not make a noticeable difference, but focus on my latter point to see the big picture.
The mission is done and all your surviving planes are now out of danger and ready to land. Any action after that will result in fewer points gained vs having all your planes land and tower out at that moment. The risk in points lost is far greater then the overall gain by launching a second sortie find more action.
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In individual combat it might not make a noticeable difference, but focus on my latter point to see the big picture.
The mission is done and all your surviving planes are now out of danger and ready to land. Any action after that will result in fewer points gained vs having all your planes land and tower out at that moment. The risk in points lost is far greater then the overall gain by launching a second sortie find more action.
Again. What is the difference?
Old system:
Second sortie time, I go out in my plane. I manage to kill 2 enemy aircraft, and I return to land. My side gets 2 points. Net gain, 2 points for my side.
New system:
Second sortie time, I go out in my plane. I manage to kill 2 enemy aircraft, and I return to land. Their side loses 2 points. Net gain, 2 points for my side.
Old system:
Second sortie time, I go out in my plane. I screw up and get killed. They get 1 point for the kill. Net loss, 1 point for my side.
New system:
Second sortie time, I go out in my plane. I screw up and get killed. My side loses 1 point because I didn't RTB. Net loss, 1 point for my side.
Where is the difference? If I don't go out and kill under the old system, I don't gain points. If I don't go out and kill under the new system, they don't lose the same number of points.
It works out the same.
Wiley.
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One small difference.
old system:
I go out, engage no one and land safely, 0 points for my side.
new system:
I go out, engage no one and land safely, 1 point for my side.
Without commenting on which is better or worse there is this small difference.
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It places the value in escaping an engagement instead of winning it.
Furthermore, it discourages post T+60 action when the max landing bonus is had when RTBing from the primary mission.
It places "A" value on landing. But there is still a value to killing. Still sounds like killing stuff is good. <shrug> Outrage unfounded.
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IMHO, this event highlighted the difficulty of crafting an "even-ish" fight with the current mid-war PTO plane set while preserving an historical flavor. The experience for JG11 was pretty uniformly one of facing an overwhelming number of fast, tough planes while flying a relatively slow, fragile plane.
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12 A6M3s running into 30 P-38s at alt.........
On the good side, I got to go out to eat dinner with my wife as I was done early... On that bad side she may start to like that on Friday nights............ :x
I don't mind a challenge, but from my IJN view the set up SUCKED ASS
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I don't mind a challenge, but from my IJN view the set up SUCKED ASS
This
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My initial assessment hold true
Another set up like that and I am through here.
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I have to wonder why the CMs would allow a set up like this? One of the worst I have seen in all my FSOs. Plane set,scoring rules,unlimited Allied fighters ect. :headscratch:
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My initial assessment hold true
Another set up like that and I am through here.
It wasn't hard to see the writing on the wall...we all knew what was going to happen...and like normal...its "oh you axis guys need to just toughen up...we know you can do it...you have XXXX advantage...you have this, you have that..."
I have been trying to get out of FSO for 4 months now...but I am outvoted...but after asking for Nikis for 3 frames with the best niki pilot in the game on my roster...I have an extra vote for leaving FSO...
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The setup might have worked had the side split been 50/50, but not with a 30 man advantage for the Allies.
And the argument that the Allies need the extra fighters to adequately protect the bombers is bunk. The Allies could match their fighters almost plane for plane against the Axis. (this also holds true for last month's BoB setup where the Axis could match the Allies fighter for fighter with the some result - easy wins for the side with the manpower advantage)
While adding the N1K to the Axis was a great idea to help the plane balance, it was negated by adding the 110C - which had a Kill to loss ratio of 10:27 (6 of those kills are between 2 pilots) in 35 total planes.
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I thought the Axis did a pretty good job. Every time I engaged I felt like I was being swarmed by the IJN. Not sure what your numbers were as far as filling out the squad min/max. But ya gave a good fight imho. I hope to see all y'all next scenario. <<S>>
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It places the value in escaping an engagement instead of winning it.
Furthermore, it discourages post T+60 action when the max landing bonus is had when RTBing from the primary mission.
Reading through this thread got me thinking about the whole point of scoring. It's a reward system, obviously. One of the things that we miss in a game is how pilots evolved in the war. They lived, they gained experience, they increased the potential of the team. The IJN had a serious problem near the end of the war, as an example, too many planes, not enough talented pilots. By attrition, the opposition got stronger and smarter, the IJN talent pool shrunk, and they continued to put greener and greener pilots up against real veterans gaining more and more experience shooting down the noobs.
I understand fully the desire to reward pilots for landing, to incentivize the drive to get home alive is a good goal. In game, that simple measure doesn't translate into gaining an advantage for surviving yet another sortie, it's simply a point consideration and Devil is right, it can be an incentive to avoid the fight. In a fight based event, you can't have an incentive to avoid engagement.
You could build into a scoring system a very real reward for surviving, while encouraging engagement. If you land successfully, good for you, you gained no kills, you get no points, being alive is a reward. If you get a kill, but are shot down, you gained something for the team but no longer translate that gain into experience as you died, so you get a point. However, if youou get a kill, and also survive, you gain for the team as well as experience and translate that into a landing bonus. You kill and land you get x2 points, or another multiplier. Bomber lives matter as well, getting your formation home gains more points than getting a single one home, you lost 2/3 of your fighting force, there were crews, pilots, gunners no longer bringing experience to the next battle so the landing bonus shrinks.
The more kills you get, and bring home, the better you score. Incentive to fight, incentive to get kills, huge incentive to get home. You even have a very solid incentive to get your ace pilots home, if you have no kills and he has 4, get his bellybutton home alive. There is a great incentive for the team to protect each other and work together. Keep the formations alive, keep the fighters alive, keep those who did the damage alive as the entire team benefits if those guys and gals get home.
You can use the scoring to do far more than simply generate points, you can use the scoring system to emulate real life conditions and simulate the experience gained by surviving a battle that only achieves a reward if you damage the other side. Never add a point bonus that rewards nothing.
The T+60 element is now a major factor, because of the ability to get another mission up and honestly have a shot at getting back into the win column if you out fly the other side. Come back with a vengeance, wipe their side out, and the side that's behind can get the landing bonus and actually catch up. Incentives to keep going past the initial engagement. These all have to be considered in a design.
Simple peanut gallery observation. Of course, numbers and side balance is a different consideration all together, as is being discussed in the scenario thread and does apply to FSO as well.
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It places the value in escaping an engagement instead of winning it.
Furthermore, it discourages post T+60 action when the max landing bonus is had when RTBing from the primary mission.
The setup it's self did not lend itself to have that ability. Were you going to engage combat, then RTB refuel, and go chase down the other side? Then meet somewhere in the middle to fight it out?
Separation of allied and axis fields just really did not lend itself the ability to do that.
As far as scores, the high buff strikes went well from what I saw, but the low ones took a beating. I can say that due to fact I was in a B-25H for frames 2 and 3.
I don't know who won, and I don't care to be honest. But I have a gut feeling it was not a points landslide victory, then again maybe I am wrong, which is ok as at some point we all are.
The setup IMO simply suffers from target placements. The notion that stacking 4 valid targets into 2 map sectors is just plain wrong!!
In this one, the Axis simply lift from a base, climb and wait. They knew the max formation bomber alt. They were full aware of the fact that the Allies had to field bombers with NO BOMBSITES. So the ideal setup is have defenses at 2 alts, assign squads specific duties as the strikes and sweeps unfold.....
Now the problem with that notion?...... Mass Allied sweeps, where the Axis simply get out gunned at higher alts.
There was a time, when the notion of stacking targets was a NO NO!! In this setup as with a couple others recently, we see the issues with it.
Everyone wants a mass fight..... Seems nothing else matters..... Folks just want a fight, and they want it for 120 minutes. With the numbers, there should be at least 2, and no more than 3 targets per side, with 20-30 miles separation.
To facilitate the 120 minutes of action, Axis and Allied fields should probably be within 50 miles of each other. However, there would have to be something that would designate specific bases for bomber rearms ( for both sides ) that protect them from the vulch. That assures second strikes actually could be achieved if that is what your going for.
A number of folks a while back jumped on the " we gotta have action" wagons. Well you got it on a silver platter, now it needs adjustments. It will take input from both sides to make it happen, and it will take restraint from CM's to make a small adjustment here, a couple there, ect, ect.
Just a few trivial thoughts
:salute
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The setup it's self did not lend itself to have that ability. Were you going to engage combat, then RTB refuel, and go chase down the other side? Then meet somewhere in the middle to fight it out?
Separation of allied and axis fields just really did not lend itself the ability to do that.
As far as scores, the high buff strikes went well from what I saw, but the low ones took a beating. I can say that due to fact I was in a B-25H for frames 2 and 3.
I don't know who won, and I don't care to be honest. But I have a gut feeling it was not a points landslide victory, then again maybe I am wrong, which is ok as at some point we all are.
The setup IMO simply suffers from target placements. The notion that stacking 4 valid targets into 2 map sectors is just plain wrong!!
In this one, the Axis simply lift from a base, climb and wait. They knew the max formation bomber alt. They were full aware of the fact that the Allies had to field bombers with NO BOMBSITES. So the ideal setup is have defenses at 2 alts, assign squads specific duties as the strikes and sweeps unfold.....
Now the problem with that notion?...... Mass Allied sweeps, where the Axis simply get out gunned at higher alts.
There was a time, when the notion of stacking targets was a NO NO!! In this setup as with a couple others recently, we see the issues with it.
Everyone wants a mass fight..... Seems nothing else matters..... Folks just want a fight, and they want it for 120 minutes. With the numbers, there should be at least 2, and no more than 3 targets per side, with 20-30 miles separation.
To facilitate the 120 minutes of action, Axis and Allied fields should probably be within 50 miles of each other. However, there would have to be something that would designate specific bases for bomber rearms ( for both sides ) that protect them from the vulch. That assures second strikes actually could be achieved if that is what your going for.
A number of folks a while back jumped on the " we gotta have action" wagons. Well you got it on a silver platter, now it needs adjustments. It will take input from both sides to make it happen, and it will take restraint from CM's to make a small adjustment here, a couple there, ect, ect.
Just a few trivial thoughts
:salute
I fully agree with what you are saying. My observation that you quoted was not specific to just this design, but to any which would employ this kind of scoring. PTO setups rarely allow for post - T+60 sorties.
In terms of the mass fights, I have always felt that the ideal battle was roughly 30 pilots per side. Too many is the chaos we've seen the last two months and too few results in battles being decided at first contact and very quickly. The later was seen too often last year and prompted the reduction in targets in most designs this year - with mixed results, but generally better than before.
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It wasn't hard to see the writing on the wall...we all knew what was going to happen...and like normal...its "oh you axis guys need to just toughen up...we know you can do it...you have XXXX advantage...you have this, you have that..."
I have been trying to get out of FSO for 4 months now...but I am outvoted...but after asking for Nikis for 3 frames with the best niki pilot in the game on my roster...I have an extra vote for leaving FSO...
No squad should have exclusive rights to a single plane IMO....Honestly that's just silly to me that you think you should have them because one of your sticks flys it exclusively....should only JG11 get 152s because Zoney flys them almost exclusively??? But what about other squads like POTW who has a member that also flys it almost exclusively???(Oh and he lost a 1v1 in N1ks in KOTH this week....but some of us know it's any given sunday when it comes to ACM, there is no "best" in any ride)
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No squad should have exclusive rights to a single plane IMO....Honestly that's just silly to me that you think you should have them because one of your sticks flys it exclusively....should only JG11 get 152s because Zoney flys them almost exclusively??? But what about other squads like POTW who has a member that also flys it almost exclusively???(Oh and he lost a 1v1 in N1ks in KOTH this week....but some of us know it's any given sunday when it comes to ACM, there is no "best" in any ride)
I think what puller was trying to get across was the fact he hoped they would at least in 1 frame out of 3 they would draw Niki's.
Just as everyone on the allied side hoped to for at least one frame to get the F-4U.
This was another FSO, where we had a lot of airframes to fill, I thought each side could have done without at least 1 of them.
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I think what puller was trying to get across was the fact he hoped they would at least in 1 frame out of 3 they would draw Niki's.
This, and that his guy is considered one of the best pilots in the N1K2.
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I do not think the results of this months FSO (good or bad) are due to what squadrons were assigned to which side, what planes were allocated to whom, or if the CM's are out to punish and/or tell one side or the other that they just need to try harder. The results are based on a write-up that needs adjusting and the execution by the CIC's & squads on each side.
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This, and that his guy is considered one of the best pilots in the N1K2.
Not much argument in that statement at all..
I do not think the results of this months FSO (good or bad) are due to what squadrons were assigned to which side, what planes were allocated to whom, or if the CM's are out to punish and/or tell one side or the other that they just need to try harder. The results are based on a write-up that needs adjusting and the execution by the CIC's & squads on each side.
Waystin,
I personally do not think for 1 minute anyone is out to punish anyone.
Granted that in most cases Cic's play a HUGE role, but you must realize that the setup itself lends to their ability to effectively do some things.
On the allied side for example, a Cic simply cannot expect squads to go in at a safe alt behind the mass sweeps when said squad is flying an A-20 or B-25H and have no bomb sights. Are there work arounds? Sure there are, but I'm not giving that info out :D
Now lets look at the Axis side, as Cic are you going to waste a squad or 2, heck maybe 3 to go look for the inbound formations? Given the size of the map, and potential inbound routes to the target area would you as a Cic want to be that light in defenders #'s.
Remember your scout squads may never see a single plane, just due to area, terrain, and clouds. They may even miss an inbound strike do alt they are at or the strike package is at. It happens believe it or not.
Could Cic's done different and made a difference? Yes, but that is part of the nature of FSO, everyone takes a turn. Everyone has a different approach given circumstance and setup. I tend to think my thought process behind it all is that having everyone in a small confined area, is typically going to define frame outcome. Where as having say 2 battle areas can provide 2 totally different results within a frame, thus a potential to keep things evened out a bit better.
:salute
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Not much argument in that statement at all..
Waystin,
I personally do not think for 1 minute anyone is out to punish anyone.
Granted that in most cases Cic's play a HUGE role, but you must realize that the setup itself lends to their ability to effectively do some things.
On the allied side for example, a Cic simply cannot expect squads to go in at a safe alt behind the mass sweeps when said squad is flying an A-20 or B-25H and have no bomb sights. Are there work arounds? Sure there are, but I'm not giving that info out :D
Now lets look at the Axis side, as Cic are you going to waste a squad or 2, heck maybe 3 to go look for the inbound formations? Given the size of the map, and potential inbound routes to the target area would you as a Cic want to be that light in defenders #'s.
Remember your scout squads may never see a single plane, just due to area, terrain, and clouds. They may even miss an inbound strike do alt they are at or the strike package is at. It happens believe it or not.
Could Cic's done different and made a difference? Yes, but that is part of the nature of FSO, everyone takes a turn. Everyone has a different approach given circumstance and setup. I tend to think my thought process behind it all is that having everyone in a small confined area, is typically going to define frame outcome. Where as having say 2 battle areas can provide 2 totally different results within a frame, thus a potential to keep things evened out a bit better.
:salute
If you read my post again you will see I agree with you J500. I do not think this is a case of CM's punishing one side or the other or asking them to try harder. It has no bearing in this conversation. Nor is this an impeachment of the CIC's or any particular squad. We all knew what was for dinner when we sat down together on that first Friday night. Now is the time to offer solutions or suggestions and then set our sights on September.
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No squad should have exclusive rights to a single plane IMO....Honestly that's just silly to me that you think you should have them because one of your sticks flys it exclusively....should only JG11 get 152s because Zoney flys them almost exclusively??? But what about other squads like POTW who has a member that also flys it almost exclusively???(Oh and he lost a 1v1 in N1ks in KOTH this week....but some of us know it's any given sunday when it comes to ACM, there is no "best" in any ride)
Any time I mention cmex or saw...or even insinuate that I am referring to them...here you come...
That's it...I was expecting them every frame...just like I expect to get a fighter when I put that as my preference every month... :rolleyes:
I think what puller was trying to get across was the fact he hoped they would at least in 1 frame out of 3 they would draw Niki's.
Thank you...not one of us C.O.s has ever expected our ride preference every frame...it pretty much tells the CIC to look at all frames involved to make sure that each squad gets their preference at least one frame...
Junky has cmex and saw living in his head rent free at all times :ahand Since I am the only one who haunts these boards regularly he has to remind me of it...
As I said...I want out of this...though I do love the concept of FSO and how it brings my guys together once a week 3 weeks out of the month...This year has really strained my will to proceed...and I have voiced my displeasure time and time again...
I look forward to AH3...maybe I'll take a fresh start outlook on FSO...start anew...the squad is growing...in manpower and skills...its sad though when we have more fun fighting eachother than our friends in FSO though...
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The constant arguing, complaining, moaning, foot stomping, etc. that I'm seeing more and more of in here, makes me want to sit down and give careful thought as to why I would want to continue my role...
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I did misread your initial post and I apologize for that, read it as you think you should get them because of one pilot...didn't see that part about asking for them.
EDIT: It wasn't a jab at Cmex, it was me making a point that any pilot can be beat in any plane....see it all the time in KOTH.
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The constant arguing, complaining, moaning, foot stomping, etc. that I'm seeing more and more of in here, makes me want to sit down and give careful thought as to why I would want to continue my role...
+1
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If you read my post again you will see I agree with you J500. I do not think this is a case of CM's punishing one side or the other or asking them to try harder. It has no bearing in this conversation. Nor is this an impeachment of the CIC's or any particular squad. We all knew what was for dinner when we sat down together on that first Friday night. Now is the time to offer solutions or suggestions and then set our sights on September.
That's on me Way. I should have said from the beginning I agree with you.
I was just pointing out some logic as I see it, does not mean it is right, or wrong.
Cic is typically no cake walk, CM has a tougher role, more time consuming just overall. It is ( time ) the #1 reason I simply have not volunteered to give it a try. Ops stuff just for my squad can be at times, more than I have time for.
This one is behind us, now we have a new game all together to deal with. We all how need to work on making sure we do what we can to keep numbers, as we simply do not know who can and cannot play the game due to hardware issues......
So numbers for September could be a real "who knows for sure" :headscratch:
So puller, I hear by decree you guys cannot leave , not yet anyways :devil
:salute
Jdog
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+1
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+1
Fellow CMs...
Thanks for your restraint.
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That's on me Way. I should have said from the beginning I agree with you.
I was just pointing out some logic as I see it, does not mean it is right, or wrong.
Cic is typically no cake walk, CM has a tougher role, more time consuming just overall. It is ( time ) the #1 reason I simply have not volunteered to give it a try. Ops stuff just for my squad can be at times, more than I have time for.
This one is behind us, now we have a new game all together to deal with. We all how need to work on making sure we do what we can to keep numbers, as we simply do not know who can and cannot play the game due to hardware issues......
So numbers for September could be a real "who knows for sure" :headscratch:
So puller, I hear by decree you guys cannot leave , not yet anyways :devil
:salute
Jdog
Thanks for your response Jdog. :aok
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The constant arguing, complaining, moaning, foot stomping, etc. that I'm seeing more and more of in here, makes me want to sit down and give careful thought as to why I would want to continue my role...
I can certainly understand why you have that reaction to the more... blunt... criticisms here in the FSO forum. In my time I have been on the receiving end of some pretty shrill complaints directed at the FSO CM team. At the same time, I hope your feelings won't blind you to all the comments that are made here from time to time.
And - as always - thanks once more to the FSO CM team for providing thirty-six events every year that both inspire heated debate and fierce aerial combat.
:salute
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I can certainly understand why you have that reaction to the more... blunt... criticisms here in the FSO forum. In my time I have been on the receiving end of some pretty shrill complaints directed at the FSO CM team. At the same time, I hope your feelings won't blind you to all the comments that are made here from time to time.
And - as always - thanks once more to the FSO CM team for providing thirty-six events every year that both inspire heated debate and fierce aerial combat.
:salute
I'm sorry, but I just don't get why there are such criticisms and shrill complaints? Because we are competitive? Sure. No one likes to lose, end the night early, and not see their squad succeed. I'm also sure Nefarious, Warloc, and Warhawk (swareiam) are turning away resumes right and left from folks wanting to submit a portion of their lives to making scenarios (FSO or otherwise) for the other 97% of the community to enjoy :rolleyes:.
Every time, my squadron gets frustrated with a setup, I suggest they submit an idea to the design team or ask to join and work toward a change. I'm sure we will be having enough of an issue with FSO with the coming of AHIII and it's unknown effect on our numbers without eating away at it from the inside.
I would like to second Bino's thanks to the folks who do this thing which keeps so many of us here. This one is over, some things were tried, notes were made for future I'm sure. Now... about the plane matchups in the Crimean... :bolt:
:salute
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I always err on the optimistic side of things. This was not a great frame performance wise for me and I don't blame anyone except myself. I do appreciate the unpaid time and effort that the CM's put into each and every scenario. It's absolutely impossible to please everyone in this game. They try their best and get beat on for it, mostly from the same people who if they had everything they ever wanted in this game would still find something to be critical of. There's always somebody who looks for the cloud in the silver lining. I do like to hear the constructive criticism offered from some of the cooler heads that roll with the punches when things don't go their way.
FATE Squad has been a part of FSO for several years. Our squad numbers declined over the years and Nefarious asked us to join up with the Volunteers along with a few other smaller number squads. I am honored to spend my Friday nights with all my squaddies. That's why the points don't matter to me. I do my best every week to make everyone laugh at my antics and get one of Jokers kills or three along the way. I am far from the best stick in this game. My FRIENDS make this fun for me. The other squads I fly with or against, make this fun for me. Beer and tequila make this fun for me (perk ride). <<S>> to all of you who enjoy it for whatever reason that keeps you coming back 3 Fridays a month. Cya in September! :)
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Bono and Alpo.... Well said.
I am with you, let's try and better FSO or we shall surely lose it.
The CM's are trying new things, some will work, others will not. We as a community can help them or hinder them with our posts. I would prefer we choose the former.
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Geeze, you gotta steal mine...........:)
Bannor hits the nail on the head, it's bout the people. And any of us tha say otherwise are lying.
We need to work this out.
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This, and that his guy is considered one of the best pilots in the N1K2.
I often find the MA pilot performance is not reflected in the SEA.
And I agree with Alpo/banner/joker. You take what you get, that is part of FSO. When you read orders saying your going NoE in IL2s you just grin and think about how you'll make the LW pay.
<S> to the CM's, CIC's, event designers, Squad CO's who put in hard work to bring the rest of us some highly enjoyable fun.
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<snip> You take what you get, that is part of FSO. When you read orders saying your going NoE in IL2s you just grin and think about how you'll make the LW pay.
THIS is what keeps me coming back. Getting those orders from the CiC on Tuesday/Wednesday and sitting down at my desk, scratching my head, and thinking to myself, "How in the hell am I going to make this fustercluck work???" and pulling it off. :rock
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I often find the MA pilot performance is not reflected in the SEA.
Through Aug. Frame 3...2cmex has 43 kills missing about 1 frame a month and not getting any kills in a few
Through this time last year 2cmex had 45 kills and probably missed more than 5 frames...
His yearly total for all of 2015 was 80...makes about 2.25 kills per frame average...
How many kills did you get in FSO last year?
I only had about 20 kills all of last year... :rock
and we wonder why it upsets me that I can't get my guy in his best plane :confused:
I have a fighter squadron...I expect it to be used as one...not to be given B5Ns with no ords and told to go scouting... :aok
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See ImADot's post.
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Let's all settle down and take a step back.
Sure there are squads that specialize in the MA. Some are fighter squads, some are bombers, some are GV squads, and some do a little of each. In the MA you have the choice to do whatever you want, in whatever plane you want. In the FSO, it's up to the CiC for a frame to come up with a plan that fills the requirements for that frame. Do not expect that you will be given your preferred ride for your preferred role all the time.
The event does not revolve around any one squad or player.
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Did we have B5N's in this month? :headscratch:
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Let's all settle down and take a step back.
Sure there are squads that specialize in the MA. Some are fighter squads, some are bombers, some are GV squads, and some do a little of each. In the MA you have the choice to do whatever you want, in whatever plane you want. In the FSO, it's up to the CiC for a frame to come up with a plan that fills the requirements for that frame. Do not expect that you will be given your preferred ride for your preferred role all the time.
The event does not revolve around any one squad or player.
I do what the CIC instructs us to do every frame...
I don't expect any type of preferential treatment...I was stating an obvious fact...you use an asset or waste it...
Quote "Thank you...not one of us C.O.s has ever expected our ride preference every frame...it pretty much tells the CIC to look at all frames involved to make sure that each squad gets their preference at least one frame..." me responding to J-dog up-thread.
Never insinuated anything revolves around my squad or myself...
Did we have B5N's in this month? :headscratch:
No...but several FSOs ago we were assigned B5Ns with no ords and were sent on a scout mission...I never complained...I didn't ask why...I didn't care why...it was what we were tasked to do...and we went off to our deaths...we found the incoming mission too...
I don't expect much anymore after that...and my guys don't either...
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Through Aug. Frame 3...2cmex has 43 kills missing about 1 frame a month and not getting any kills in a few
Through this time last year 2cmex had 45 kills and probably missed more than 5 frames...
His yearly total for all of 2015 was 80...makes about 2.25 kills per frame average...
How many kills did you get in FSO last year?
Well, I dunno, I only just got back into FSO late last year with the 412th (previously I flew with the Nightmares, and before that MAG-33 when it was called TOD).
But to date this year Nefs stats say I have around 43 kills. I also missed a few frames (thank you daylight savings). And that includes Alpo shooting me down in frame 2 (friendly fire - sorry to bring it up alpo :D ).
And there are plenty of sticks in the 412th that are better than me (and plenty in other FSO squads).
So yeah whatever.
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Just curious, are there any FSO's that are just fighter on fighter with no bombers?
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But to date this year Nefs stats say I have around 43 kills. I also missed a few frames (thank you daylight savings). And that includes Alpo shooting me down in frame 2 (friendly fire - sorry to bring it up alpo :D ).
Hey... I was ace that frame, I was hoping you would get us another 20 points! :devil Besides, if SOMEONE would have simply killed that Ki on their pass instead of simply peppering him, I wouldn't have been firing from behind him with you out in front of him :P
Of course, I pretty much missed my kill shot on him too and pinged you on the other side :rofl
(http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p496/skfgalpo/P38pass_zpspwjxopxb.jpg)
Note... I was guns cold at the time of this photo as I was too busy dodging the dead man flying.
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Peppering him?
Ahem:
22:40:31 Shot down a Ki-61-I-Tei flown by Slider.
22:41:38 Was shot down by SKfgALPO (crashed).
You tried to steal my kill AND killed me :devil
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+1
Fellow CMs...
Thanks for your restraint.
yes thank you for your restraint... Oh my...what would we do if you lashed out...
Just because you volunteer your time...
(of course we won't mention that your scoring for the most fubar set up in FSO history is weeks late as you scramble your small mind to present a score that doesn't speak loudly to your critics cries....)
...doesn't make you right.
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yes thank you for your restraint... Oh my...what would we do if you lashed out...
Just because you volunteer your time...
(of course we won't mention that your scoring for the most fubar set up in FSO history is weeks late as you scramble your small mind to present a score that doesn't speak loudly to your critics cries....)
...doesn't make you right.
+1
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yes thank you for your restraint... Oh my...what would we do if you lashed out...
Just because you volunteer your time...
(of course we won't mention that your scoring for the most fubar set up in FSO history is weeks late as you scramble your small mind to present a score that doesn't speak loudly to your critics cries....)
...doesn't make you right.
You may disagree with the set up or scoring, that's okay, but I've always thought you were above personal attacks.
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You may disagree with the set up or scoring, that's okay, but I've always thought you were above personal attacks.
Which is exactly why I posted what needed to be.