Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Greg 'wmutt' Cook on May 20, 2000, 09:34:00 PM
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I know I'm not saying anything that hasn't been beaten to a bloody plup here, but I find it just isn't any fun to play with all the cannon armed F4u-c's. It seems like I log on, hop into a plane or tank get going well and then one of these things comes along and bam I'm dead. It seems to be what kills me the most, and there isn't anything I can do about it. I have refused to fly the thing cause I know how mad I get at being popped by it every time I fly or roll. And I love the F4u-d. So I'm stuck. Don't want to leave, cause I like the game, But not having any fun with those things out there. Anybody got an answer as to how to defeat the foul beast?
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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels
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I have come to believe there are a bunch of Torque wannabes out there who have chosen that mount because they see Torque consistently pulling off 7-10kills sortie after sortie after sortie.
Thank God they can't all fly like he does (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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Perk it... make people fly the Typhoon if they want to strafe tanks!
[This message has been edited by Aszurom (edited 05-20-2000).]
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Sorry, I wasn't meaning to say that I was going to leave because of the plane, I just wanna know how to beat it. So I can have more fun. Although I do like the perk idea, It would make people a better pilot, ever try to land a Typhoon? For the longest time I would get too slow on the approach, rev the engine and torque-roll into the ground. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Oh well, you die a few times and you learn.
[This message has been edited by Greg 'wmutt' Cook (edited 05-20-2000).]
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The things the F4u does well:
- Rolls fast, thus scissors well.
- High speed.
- tough airframe, takes hits.
- Not a bad turner - for US iron.
- Good e-fighter with excellent zoom climb.
The things the F4u does not do well:- Worst 6-view among AH fighters.
- Poor low speed handling.
- Poor acceleration.
Given these conditions, the best course of action would be to force the F4u into a low energy state, then kill it at your choosing. The problem is getting it into a low energy state. If you are one on one with a F4u, then chances of doing that are fairly slim if the enemy pilot plays the e-fight right by translating altitude into speed into altitude. Thus, it usually takes patience, and a little bit of distance before a F4u can be brought into a position where it can be dispatched.
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(http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero/5GIAP.jpg)
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 05-20-2000).]
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Work on guns defense. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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f4u is easy meat,
but I guess I say this cuz im in the same squad as Torque (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I guess I should say knit and rook f4u's are ez meat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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heheheh
Torque is easy meat when he dinnae have someone covering his vulching (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Couldna begin to tell ya the number of times I've had'im in me sights only to have a wing removed by something that almost seemed to warp in (look back it's 2.5k back, 2sec later I'm a fireball)
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Leonid is right.
I love nothing more than comin up behind em, using there poor 6 view to my advantage.
Checked my Tour 3 stats and found that i dont really have a problem with the f4u-1c..
Tour 3
Wardog has 17 kills and has been killed 8 times in the P-51D against the F4U-1C.
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(http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/wd51.jpg)
-= Death From Behind =-
[This message has been edited by Wardog (edited 05-21-2000).]
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Leonid is correct accept for one thing. This only works if the 1-c pilot never gets even one lucky shot opportunity, which leads to the real point of the question, and the only true answer.... don't get shot by one. I have never escaped after being shot even once by a 1-c, regardless of the plane I was flying. This is the only plane this has happened against, having taken hits from an opponent but surviving long enough to turn the tables and kill him against virtually any other plane. I have downed several 1-c's if I started out with the alt/E advantage, and I totally agree with Leonid and others. As long as you don't fight the hawg pilot's fight, they can be defeated. But if even the smallest of snapshot opportunities opens up for your foe, kiss it goodbye. The overmodeled cannons, not the plane, are the reason for the 1-c's dominance. And, yes, I have said it many times before, Torque and a VERY FEW others know how to fly the hawg quite effectively,... all vulching comments aside. I have seen, and been victim of, this smart flying.... dive, engage, extend, climb, return, dive, engage, extend, climb... etc... very smart for a hawg pilot. I on the other hand am only a decent (or not so decent) hawg pilot, and I still can almost guarantee at least a couple of kills in every sortie on the rare occasions that I decide to fly it, simply because I am almost assured to get a shot opportunity on one or two hapless souls before I waste all my E, and those guys are guaranteed toast, a la super cannons. This is where most people who are upset about the c-hawg get frustrated... a crappy pilot that can't kill much of anything otherwise jumps in to a c-hawg and instantly becomes lethal. And I also question a 1-c going on a tank killing spree (3 in a row the other afternoon). I didn't realize the Hispanos used depleted uranium rounds. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) If I were a gambling man, I would stake a pretty big sum on the bet that the 1-D flown a comparable amount of hours would not have anywhere near the killing efficiency as the 1-c, removing the "superior pilots/superior plane" argument except in a very few cases. OK, I will quit mercilessly kicking the dead horse already... but just couldn't resist one more shot of common sense. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.tcsn.net/aramis/skorpjg2.gif)
[This message has been edited by Skorpyon (edited 05-21-2000).]
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Originally posted by funked:
Work on guns defense. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And ummm... at the risk of sounding dumb, what does that mean in english?
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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels
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Just try cannon Hog in iconless arena and you will see the difference. In short, NO MORE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Greg, I mean come to training with me sometime and I'll show you some moves that most Hog drivers can't match. I get killed by a Hog about 5-6 times per tour while flying fighters, but those are mostly unobserved bounces. If you see them you can almost always make them miss with the proper technique.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-21-2000).]
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WD I got ya beat!
tour 3:
Citabria has 29 kills and has been killed 3 times in the P-38L against the F4U-1C.
hehe
they go splat nicely
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Hey there squadie, if you want i can set up a H2H or something in the training arena? We can look at some methods in beating the F4Uc1. Once you get past the Merge its jsut a matter of good tactics and ACM. I'll talk to you today in ICQ before squad time.
laters- AMMO
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cammo.jpg)
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Guys... This IS cannon aces we are playing.. Fix the fifties and things will work out. I really find it funny that the people who squeak about cannon Hogs all fly cannon planes.
AH Corsair climbs poorly, accelerates lousy and has a laughable turn rate/radius. Six view? After WB it is downright panoramic.
I find the climb and speed of the AH Hog pretty realistic but the turn is really odd for such a known good turner with such a low wing loading... Being outturned by LW planes and other high wingloaded ac is disconcerting to say the least.
lazs
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When I'm in my 38 ands I see an F4U I drool. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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AcesHigh has one design behavior it forces on me. If I dont have the initiative to begin with, I usually either have to run away or get waxxed. It is very difficult to survive a burst of gunfire and turn tables.
In WBs, with the advanced gunnery, it is common to take a good solid burst of cannonfire and still be able to turn the table on the attacker. The reason is the damage inflicted is not a sure thing. Here in AH the damage is much, much more lethal and therefor cuts back, almost eliminates the ability to survive that first guns engagement. Both situations have good and bad points. In WBs you can go into a fight at a disadvantage and prevail if you are good or lucky enough, but it is frustrating when your the attacker. In AH you will almost always loose if you present a guns solution which is frustrating because the majority of people will run rather than force a bad entrance into the fight.
The fact that a F4U-1C kills me or a Bf109-G10 makes little difference i m o.
Yeager
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
I really find it funny that the people who squeak about cannon Hogs all fly cannon planes.
Sniff sniff. The bait still smells funny.
What cannons do the B-17 and the B-26 have?
Az
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lazs...
Do you really think the 50s are porked...?
Sounds like your a voice in the wilderness on that one.
Torque.
The most anoying thing to me about torque was how dangerous he was when I was above him. I have since had opertunity to fly the 1c in a nose high attitude. Compared to the 190A8 the thing handles spectacualarly well at the point of stall. It just sits there with the nose still pointable and that 20mm battery ready to get a nice full plane shot burst at anyone unfortunate enough to think they(I) have them on the ropes...
Just another reason why the 1c(and prob the 1d) have to be fought a bit differently
Anyway several of the torque kills that didnt feel right to me( I thought he must have boosted E somehow) were probably just him stalling out 1k bellow me. But in the 1c that is enough..
It can be very frustating to be wondering where he is going to run too, KNOWING you have the fight under control. And then 1 ping dead...
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Those cannons are sort of powerful for allied planes (wonder why), so when you step into plane with machineguns, you will find lack of power, but actually thats just lack of accuracy.
You're so used to shoot down planes with spread & spray and couple hits that you've forgot one important factor of aerial war, marksmanship.
IMO. Accuracy isnt so big matter in Aces High if using cannons.
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-Lazs-,
I love the .50's in AH. They are quite nice, and I don't have any trouble killing with them. Last tour I was 24-3 in the F4U-1D. (Don't look at this tour, I'm in a bad slump.... yeah that's it.) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Since the latest version, I find the fifties work great. The only cannon Hog I have trouble with is Torque's, and I'm just glad he's not killing me in that damn N1k1 anymore! At least when he's in the Hog I have a chance. <G>
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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If your bouncing a plane like the F4U (Or really any plane) with E advantage, and he is getting his nose up to get a shot at you, your doing at least 1 of 3 things wrong (usually 2 or 3 in conjunction).
- You attacking from too steep an angle
- Your not being patient enough to setup the bounce properly
- Your not stalking the aircraft long enough to determine if he is hiding any significant amounts of E.
Actually all three of these are part of the same thing, but you get the idea.
Personally, I find the N1K2 much more dangerous an opponent on the bounce, than the F4U.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Lazs is always a voice in the wilderness. Didn't you guys see him in "Deliverance"?
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Lazs is Ned Beatty? No wonder he likes the "hog",can you squeal for us Lazs? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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IMHO the .50's are about as good as we can expect, I guess. Certainly they remain the best I've seen in any sim. I still think they lack some historical punch in the snapshot.. but I've compensated. I don't knifefight for snapshot solutions any more. I work in for a deeper six solution, and generaly rely on low AOT soulutions for one burst kills.
The F4U-1c cannons definitly have the punch to kill with a short burst; so his angles game is a bit easier in the knifefights.. He just needs a breif crossing snapshot to kill or maime. And to lesser degrees; the same is true of all the cannon birds. I'm guessin this is as it should be. Beware the scissors with cannon birds! One tiny mistake; give him just one shot opportunity... and yer toast.
Truth be told. the hawgs don't bug me much.. every time I get tagged by one it's a lesson in SA refinement. I do, however; consider them a large threat and they remain on the top of my priorites list in clearing out a furball..
Hang
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Thanks. This thread has certianly been ... um well, enlightening (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) No, really, I have seen a lot of good stuff here, and you will be seeing me in the TA a fair bit, learning to fly my trusty 1D and overcoming my 'cannon envy'.
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(http://www.ropescourse.org/cwmutt.jpg)
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
"When in doubt, put a few more rounds into it."
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Originally posted by weazel:
Lazs is Ned Beatty? No wonder he likes the "hog",can you squeal for us Lazs? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
C'mon Weaz! Never judge a book by its cover!
Doh!
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/bobbyjoe.jpg)
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Yeager, i think you hit it on the head about engagements in AH. I also think that the .50's are the best (most leathal) of any sim but.... They lack punch in the snapshot.
Lep, if you fly in a manner that doesn't make use of snapshots then the fifties are fine. Work your self into good position and A good solid burst allmost allways ends the fight. I suppose that I still like to knifefight and take a lot of snapshots with the fifties planes... Get a lot of sists.
I don't fly the Hog much. The 1D turns so badly (worse even than the C)that it's other weaknesses are hard/not worth the effort to overcome. when I see an enemey AH plane above me, the one I worry the least about is the 1C Hog.
Who says LW sis.. er , Guys have no sense of humor? Wait till they start on the fart jokes.... you'll crack up!
I was much younger in that picture.
lazs
[This message has been edited by -lazs- (edited 05-22-2000).]
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The one plane that absolutely terrifies me when it is above is the 1C. The smart Hawg pilot will get a shot on you from there eventually, and you will die. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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kieren... the Hog is less frightening because it is by far the least manueverable plane in the game. It also climbs so slowly that most smart Hog pilots won't come down for you in any kind of a crowd. If they do you can dodge em.
lazs
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
kieren... the Hog is less frightening because it is by far the least manueverable plane in the game. It also climbs so slowly that most smart Hog pilots won't come down for you in any kind of a crowd. If they do you can dodge em.
lazs
Least manueverable plane in the game? Nonsense. The Hog turns well with 190s, 109s, Typhoons, and even 38s. I've won a number of tough turning fights against Nikis while flying the Hog.
I think the reason the Hog succeeds as much as it does is exactly BECAUSE people hold the same mistaken notion you do. Its agility catches many off-guard, and all it takes is one snapshot with those insane guns to punish mistakes.
-- Todd/DMF
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dmf.... I was making a shamless exageration and i appologize.... The Hog is not the least maneuverable plane in the game, it will squeak by the typhoon in turn radius.
lazs
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Hog turns much better than the 190 in my experience on both ends of the Hispano... Talking minimum speed fight here.
The people that should be whining are us Typhoon drivers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-23-2000).]
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Originally posted by Pongo:
... you have the fight under control. And then 1 ping dead...
That is the main problem, you can do maneuvres that will put yourself into an absolute disadvantage situation with HogC knowing that you'll be able to put a "SINGLE" round on the enemy and he'll blew in parts. Flying 190, those "absurd" moves also can be done but:
1 - 99% of time you are not going to hit anything in that snapshot with the Mg151.
2 - If you hit anything(1 or 2 rounds), no or almost no damage will be done.
3 - Obviously, the "desperate" maneuver will put yourself in a no-way-to-survive situation.
Flying the HogC and doing the same "suicide" moves:
1 - 99% of the times you are going to score hits in that snapshot with the hispanos.
2 - 100% of the times you hit, your enemy will be disintegrated.
3 - Obviously, the "desperate" maneuver will put yourself in a always-going-to-survive situation because your con is obliterated.
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
Hog is less frightening because it is by far the least manueverable plane in the game.
Did you ever fly the 190 or even 109G10?????
Handling of HogC is wonderful compared to 190 or G10.
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mandoble.... The G10 will outturn the -1c or D. In all cases except extreme low speed using full flaps the porcine 190
A8 will also outturn the corsair. Another leathiality test using hangers shows that your perception about leathiality comparisons of HS and 151 rounds is wrong.
lazs
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Well now thanks to some basic merge training, I find I'm not that scared of them now. I was quite amased at an LA5 that flat outpreformed my mustang at 25K feet, but that was just good pilot stuff. I'm getting better, thanks.
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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels
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Hey Wmutt, were a small crew, who didya in at 25k?
BTW the thing that ticks me on F4u-c is EXACTLY what was mention in this thread. Your merging- he's 2k below your above and climbing (cause you know hes dangerous and want to avoid his loop). he snaps into a loop just before the merge and puts you onto his lift line. He fires as he passes through and you get a hit from 1k-800 yds away. his 1 ping is usually enough to smash you, damaging enough that you are now unable to fight against him. then you have to either try to climb right out of the fight or dive out and run from him.
In truth the reach of a hispano mated with the good zoom, roll and dive speed of a hog make it far more dangerous than a Nik. Nik is ONLY more dangerous if it is closer, slower and lower than the hog. And a Nik can't dive out and run away from you..
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lazs wrote:
A8 will also outturn the corsair. Another leathiality test using hangers shows that your perception about leathiality comparisons of HS and 151 rounds is wrong.
lazs
Well, the thing with the Hispanos is that it has more to do with muzzle velocity/less lead than it has with lethality when it comes to snapshots. Someone also mentioned that the reason the Hog C is so lethal is that the guns fire from *between* the two guns - i.e more concentrated fire in a small area. Something akin to only firing two guns, but at twice the ROF. Not sure this is true, a joke or what.
When I get a snapshot in with my 190 (using 2*20mm, not 4*20mm), it is usually enough to damage the enemy, and sometimes enough to kill it. The thing is that with the Hog C, that snapshot is *so* much easier.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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If there is not enough dispertion in the 4 cannon from the -1C then.... It is wrong and should be fixed. If the complaint is that the HS rounds have a shorter time to target, better trajectory, better balistic coefiecient, or more kinetic energy then..... Tough.
lazs
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Oh yes, not arguing about the latter lazs - I am all for realism. Just trying to understand why the C is so much better at snapshots than the 190A8.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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The issue lazs is do the ballistic advantages of the HS add up to the difference we see in the game. Was that advantage what the people who flew it and against it observed.
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Originally posted by funked:
Hog turns much better than the 190 in my experience on both ends of the Hispano... Talking minimum speed fight here.
Funny, I always thought that F4u was *horrible* turner at slow speeds...
I guess this is again those allie side modelling problems..
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
In all cases except extreme low speed using full flaps the porcine 190
A8 will also outturn the corsair.
lazs
LOL ! Maybe when YOU'RE flying the F4U !
Here's a thread with Wells (thanks Wells) discussing turn rate and turn radius. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000443.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000443.html)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-24-2000).]
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any plane can turn with any other plane (excluding spitfires) with the right circumstances.
most of the time fuel and ammo wieght will determine a real close stall fight for obvious reasons.
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Hiya Ladies n Gents.
I have flown the f4c like everyone said beat his E state than his all yours to play with an rape that go goes for any plane but people already know that. 205 does a great job depeleting f4c E state nicely (again just have to avoid those HO's and there 1 bullet shots).
Bash
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Originally posted by bashwolf:
(again just have to avoid those HO's and there 1 bullet shots).
Bash
And, their D1.0>> shots!
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I always hear about D1.0 + shots .. weird .. havn't been killed since 2 tours at least like that ... the furthest out was a SPIT at 850 yards who sprayed and praed me and musta have killed me with his last cannon round..
you múst have your convergenze REALLY far out to get your bullets to even get within the target area ..
[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 05-24-2000).]
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To add to the endless issue, I too am frustrated with the turbo lasers of the 1C.
I wish Hitech would look at every post that has '1 ping dead'to understand how IMO unfair this is or change the name of the game to 'Cannon Aces'.
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Duckwing, come grab me in Main sometime, we'll re-create the same tests that Silat and I did, D1.0 and above (on both FE's) cannon shots in hog. Very easy to reproduce. Gimme a hollar! I'll make a believer out of ya.
BTW, the convergence in the tests was set at 375.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-24-2000).]
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
mandoble.... The G10 will outturn the -1c or D. In all cases except extreme low speed using full flaps the porcine 190
A8 will also outturn the corsair.
Sure, a 25% fuel loaded G10 or A8 will outturn a F4U1-D/C loaded with 100% fuel, 2 1000 lb bombs and rockets ...
-Lazs- you should fly all the three planes offline and do the next test:
1 - Select 4 different g loads.
2 - Select 4 different starts speeds.
3 - Select 4 different altitudes.
4 - Combine all the above and take times for 360 degree turn, then for two turns, then for three.
5 - Note the final altitude after each test.
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Ripsnort, please try to reproduce it with the target doing a lazy 1 g defensive turn in the extension, and see if you can hit.
Straight and Level isn't much of a test.
If anyone flies straight and level with and enemy at 1k they deserve to get hit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Really...At 2/3rds of a mile..
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Hey Wmutt, were a small crew, who didya in at 25k?
I'm not sure, He was a gentleman and after putting holes in my radiator and removing my rudder allowed me to dive low and disengage. Salute to whoever it was though, and I hope it wasn't too easy for ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Ripsnort, please try to reproduce it with the target doing a lazy 1 g defensive turn in the extension, and see if you can hit.
Straight and Level isn't much of a test.
If anyone flies straight and level with and enemy at 1k they deserve to get hit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Verm, I don't know what significance that would show, it would just be testing my ability to hit a moving target. My point is, should one consistently be able to hit a target at that distance without severe bullet drop from a 20mm shell at D1.0 >> ? I'm no ballistics experten, but I can remember a whole lotta squeaking in WB's when D10 shots were downing pilots (that would be D1.0 here).
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-24-2000).]
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mandoble... Are you saying you have done such testing? If you have then i would be very much interested in seeing and trying to duplicate your results.
if you read the thread "ok, help me out here" you will see a turn test giving time and speed at sea level that was done by wells... i get numbers that are very close to his. the G10 and even the 190 will outturn the Hog... A "real" comparison of a 1D and a 190A5 had the Hog gaining 1 turn in 3 on the 190. Other tests have the Hog easily outturning a P51B. Something is wrong.
As for the 1C guns... i don't fly it much and I never find it to be much of a threat.
lazs
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Ripsnort:
The squeaking in WB about long range shots was primarily because there was no dispersion. In this game at 1000+ yard the dispersion pattern is pretty huge and I doubt you can do much better than 1% or 2% in accuracy. Still if the target is going straight and somebody is willing to expend 500 or 600 shells this is going to yield enough hits to kill the aircraft with 20mm. Concerning bullet drop: The Hispanos have a much flatter trajectory than the Mg151 shells, primarily due to their higher speed. Hispano rounds are going to catch that 1000 yard target several hundred yards closer than Mg151 rounds and the drop in the Hispano rounds is going to be less than a third of the drop of the Mg151 rounds.
Hooligan
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What Hooligan Said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ballistically it is very possible to hit and seriously damage non-manuevering targets at 1,000 yards with weapons such as .50's MG's and 20mm Cannons in real life.
Just look at the ballistic numbers. Hell, a .22 caliber rimfire cartridge is reportedly lethal up to over a mile, which is 1760 yards, and you expect a 20mm cannon at 2/3rds of that range to not hurt you?
In Warbirds, there was no dispersion at that time, and people were scoring kills at those ranges against manuvering targets. Quite a different situation. And we won't even go into the issue that the shells in WB's were the size of "beach balls".
And even then the arguement was that "in real life" pilots didn't score kills like that. Well, this isn't real life, our sim pilots have a life times worth of gunnery experience compared to WWII pilots, plus we have instant radar ranging with the icon system that is in use in the arena.
Even with that arguement, pilot accounts of scoring kills at that range are documented in both after action reports and in gun camera footage that is commercially available today.
Its just that kills at that range were not common in real life. And they are not common in AH.
So yes, if in your tests your "target fighter" is flying straight and level, your on his direct six, and you fire enough ammunition to overcome dispersion and bad aim, you should be able to easily shoot him down. Especially with 20mm cannons since most of their lethality comes from the explosive force of the shell which is consistent no matter the range, unlike the kinetic energy which disapates the farther downrange you go.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Just look at the ballistic numbers. Hell, a .22 caliber rimfire cartridge is reportedly lethal up to over a mile, which is 1760 yards, and you expect a 20mm cannon at 2/3rds of that range to not hurt you?
are we deciding on the practicality of killing fighters at 1000 yards based on the warning on a box of 22 rimfires now?
It is rediculous. The guns would burn out long befor you hit a target at 1000yards.
Park your car and take 1000 running steps away from it.
I have gotten 2 kills with the 1c in the last week at slightly less then 900 yards. No long burst no hosing the target
Ratio comparisons are meaningless in regards this discussion. How far does the 151 round drop in 600 yards. How far does the HS round drop?
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Pongo, how much real life experience do you have with weapons? Have you ever fired a heavy machine gun? Have you ever fired a light machine gun, a full caliber assault rifle (7.62 Nato), or a high powered hunting rifle?
Edit: I wrote a huge long disertation on the effects and effective ranges of my personal experience with high powered rifles, assault rifles, and the M60 I fired in the military, but decided its like preaching to an atheist.
If you can find someone who has done these talk to them in person. They will tell you that it is possible to hit at a non moving target at 1,000 yards with Heavy MG's and cannons.
Do you even know what "burn out the gun" really means?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Some of you guys TURN your aircraft?
Yikes! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rude Out!
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>Verm, I don't know what significance that
>would show, it would just be testing my
>ability to hit a moving target
You were not able to reproduce that with any of the other aircraft in the plane set? Did you test all the others?
I've prolly gotten more 1.0 kills in my Spit than my 1C.
Maybe the Spit is going to be the next plane on your list to be "removed". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Anyone remember in the beta days it was the pony that had to be removed or drastically castrated. Uber-UFO-zoom pony? Remember how it unbalenced the arena??? Remember?
I'd almost say take the 1C out just to shut up the whiners, except I'm certain they'd move right on to the next plane on the list and we'd be fighting this fight all over again with another aircraft. (remeber the uber-pony?) The bad part would be that HTC would have then set the precedence that a sufficient amount of whinning can remove any plane in the arena. You then set yourself up for an endless campaign of complaining and ultimatiums (get rid of that plane or our squads out of here!).
If HTC ever opens that flood-gate, we'll fricken drown in whiners.
$0.02,
Wab
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Originally posted by AKWabbit:
Anyone remember in the beta days it was the pony that had to be removed or drastically castrated. Uber-UFO-zoom pony? Remember how it unbalenced the arena??? Remember?
Wab
I believe that the Pony at that time was no where near the historical numbers performance wise, if memory serves right (Correct me here if I'm wrong)...
To set the record straight, the 1C is being targeted by not only flyers but the Tankers as well. And most want the 1C to stay,(see survey) with no changes. IMO, most want a historical arena to play in, in addition to the 'all-planes' arena. This would fix obsessive whining. BTW, I fly the hog alot. And I voted to keep it and its guns, just give me a historical arena where the 109F can be competitive! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-25-2000).]
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Let me quote Pyro:
"What you complain about is in my area of responsibility, so I'll give you my viewpoint. My interest is snot in continuously changing the game, it's in advancing it. So I don't like to knee-jerk changes in until I'm convinced it is the proper action. On issues that are not clearly bugs, this may take some time.
The downside of this is when people go off the deep end. For example, I spent yesterday afternoon going over weapons modeling in detail and turned up a few things. Good news? Well maybe in that case, but maybe not in the overall scheme of things. Why? Because once somebody goes off the deep end, any changes that come about will be perceived as a result of their action. That perception will frustrate the majority of players who feel the loudest voices are the only ones listened to and will serve to reinforce that as a means to an end. That will degrade this community and our relationship with it. Alienation is a bad thing.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-25-2000).]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Let me quote Pyro:
"What you complain about is in my area of responsibility, so I'll give you my viewpoint. My interest is snot
<snip>
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You sure that Pyro said "My interest is snot"?
Must be a computor geek thingy...
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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This thread has been most amusing.