Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Dobs on September 13, 2016, 06:52:47 AM
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Is this an auto trim feature? Is it good? is it bad?
Does it limit your aircraft in anyway?
Just curious....
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When you have it enabled, whatever plane you're in is trimmed automatically for combat flying. A lot of times if I want to push the plane into areas of the flight envelope where it shouldn't be, I turn CT off. You can do some strange things with CT off, if you know your aircraft. Also, if I'm chasing a con in any sort of dive, I turn it off because I get better air speed.
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Combat trim is basically an automatic general trim based on current throttle and airspeed, which tries to keep the plane stable. It relieves the pilot of having to constantly adjust trim every time the throttle position is changed (like during combat). You can get better performance by manually trimming in certain situations, but for most people the combat trim works good enough. If you get too slow and/or drop flaps, combat trim should be turned off as it tends to trim you very nose high and will stall you quickly.
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And thank you all!
Explains my early stall outs when chasing those experten BnZ'rs!
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The 38 will get stuck in the air nose up and slow with it on. With it off you can zoom to under 50 mph and still have some control of the plane.
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Basically, what it does is it first of all assumes full throttle (no WEP) and a clean airframe. It then sets the trims according to your speed.
Any variation such as reduced throttle/WEP, ordnance, drop tanks, flaps, gear or missing parts will not be accounted for.
My personal feeling on it, if I'm BnZing, I leave it on. If I'm turnfighting once things get around 200mph I turn it off. It can really mess with your mojo in a stallfight because as you're riding the edge and slowing down it continues making adjustments to your trim which can make a difference and cause you to lose the edge. Also, it really doesn't work well once flaps come out. YMMV.
Wiley.
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I use only manual trim but it does take awhile to make trimming a second sense. CT to me makes the simulated plane be just a bit stiff.
Bottom line manual trim offers some advantages but not at the game changing level.
Oddly enough the P-47N seems to suffer the most from CT. Especially in a dive bombing attack where N goes to the target like an arrow.
My guess is, a higher percentage P-38 players prefer manual trim over CT than any other plane. It is a WAG so don't put a lot of stock in that.
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I use combat trim for every plane and every sortie. The Trim going out of balance just gets tiring to fix. I'm sure there are some advantages to taking it off, but for the most part, it doesn't make life changing differences. In turn fights, if your plane is out of Trim, by using manual Trim, it can make your plane actually turn worse, and make shooting harder, if you don't know exactly what you are doing. If you are just getting started in the game, or aren't very experienced in the game. I'd leave it on all the time, so that you can learn how the plane feels at first. Sometimes I think beginners who tweak Trim, actually do themselves a disfavor, rather than making them turn a tiny or slightly bit better.
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I use combat trim for every plane and every sortie. The Trim going out of balance just gets tiring to fix. I'm sure there are some advantages to taking it off, but for the most part, it doesn't make life changing differences. In turn fights, if your plane is out of Trim, by using manual Trim, it can make your plane actually turn worse, and make shooting harder, if you don't know exactly what you are doing. If you are just getting started in the game, or aren't very experienced in the game. I'd leave it on all the time, so that you can learn how the plane feels at first.
Agreed. There are some very rare instances where turning CT off helps - Ki-84 in a dive, f'rinstance - otherwise all CT does (as ImaDot says) is relieve the control pressures. Years ago someone said that the 38 benefits from turning CT off, and since the 38 doesn't need any aileron or rudder trim I've just turned CT off on faith. Pretty sure that the good pilots in this game have generally said they leave CT on all the time, as vis Violator here (Shane also comes to mind, and I think Ack-Ack, too).
- oldman
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It depends how you fly, and your style. Some great players leave it enabled, and some great players manually trim their planes.
For me, if I get into knife-fights with CT on, I'll stall a wing. Nearly 100% of the time. If I'm in a nose-down turning fight, and I suddenly spin, I often find that I left CT on.
I also trim different planes at different speeds, and trim the 38 differently than the rest.
Some people will flip CT on and off multiple times, much like a light switch. I guess that method works for them.
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Some people will flip CT on and off multiple times, much like a light switch. I guess that method works for them.
That basically sets the trim to whatever speed your plane's at when you blip it off. So if I happened to have manual trim in a dive, then it transitions to a stall fight, I may just blip CT on and off as I pass 200, so it sets it for around 200 as I am decelerating.
Wiley.
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That basically sets the trim to whatever speed your plane's at when you blip it off. So if I happened to have manual trim in a dive, then it transitions to a stall fight, I may just blip CT on and off as I pass 200, so it sets it for around 200 as I am decelerating.
Wiley.
Yeah, I do that for some planes too, but I didn't mean it like that. I meant they consistently flip it on and off, like a child playing with the light switch. on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off ... ad nauseam to see in a film. :)
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Agreed. There are some very rare instances where turning CT off helps - Ki-84 in a dive, f'rinstance - otherwise all CT does (as ImaDot says) is relieve the control pressures. Years ago someone said that the 38 benefits from turning CT off, and since the 38 doesn't need any aileron or rudder trim I've just turned CT off on faith. Pretty sure that the good pilots in this game have generally said they leave CT on all the time, as vis Violator here (Shane also comes to mind, and I think Ack-Ack, too).
- oldman
I never use CT, I always manually trim since I fly a flap dependent plane like the P-38 and CT only hinders when I get into low speeds and/or deploy flaps. It boils down to personal preference but I've always recommended that at least in the P-38, only use manual trim.
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I use it to quickly toggle to correct the trim at a given speed. Flying the 38 CT doesn't get it for me. It seems to like to keep the nose too heavy in dives and too light in turn fights. I manually trim a bit nose low when turning as it's natural to pull through a turn than push the nose back down. Same for dives where I'll trim up to maintain better control. Either way, once I've turned it off I'm adjusting manually until I'm cruising somewhere again.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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CT works off a set of tables,X speed = Y setting.
For most of the flight it works fairly well,what it doesnt do is take in consideration is a change in the planes configuration such as flaps and/or gear. Once you drop flaps CT will dial in full up elevator and this is what causes some players issues. At high speeds it tries to keep the plane level and thus it dials in some negative trim to keep the plane from climbing,this is what gives many planes that "nose" heavy condition.
Then there are a few planes that CT seems to be off on,Ki84 and Tu2 come to mind. While CT isnt perfect it does reduce pilot load and I use it about 90% of the time,simply because I'm lazy....... :devil
Oh and trimming wont make a plane turn any better full elevator deflection is full deflection regardless of the trim setting,where it can help is in A/C that stiffen the controls at speed.The 109K4 at full speed can barely pull 3.5 G with CT on,turn it off and you can blackout!
Hope that helps!
:salute
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BTW. Anybody else notice the manual trim position if you use a slider is fairly consistent between planes now in AH3. In AH2 the P-38 was pretty far forward on the slider but the P-51 was about half slider. The P-38 is just over half way in the AH3 P-38.
Might be I have a different calibration in AH3.
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Some have postulated CT creates drag which effects gaining your top speed in dives. I can get a Yak 9u up over 500 from a 9000ft dive to the deck with CT off nose trimmed for 500. The Yak 9u holds that E longer running out at the end of the dive then if I do the same dive with CT on. I catch 262's with the spit16 doing the same thing.
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I never use CT, I always manually trim since I fly a flap dependent plane like the P-38 and CT only hinders when I get into low speeds and/or deploy flaps. It boils down to personal preference but I've always recommended that at least in the P-38, only use manual trim.
Same here, but with all aircraft, not just the P38. I find that when using flaps combined with CT, that you're always having to...fight..the nose position by having to push ahead on the stick once the flaps come out, and that starts making the nose, and hence gunsight, bob and float around a lot more than when CT is off. So, like others here, I have CT on a toggle on my throttle, and just pop it on to reestablish correct trim when I feel trim is getting wonky - although I do manually trim quite a bit, mainly elevator, I have vator/aileron trim on a hat, don't bother with rudder trim myself much. I don't get how anyone can fly/fight with combat trim on if they use the flaps - as soon as they come down it's like I spend more time trying to fight against the CT/Flaps fighting against each other than fighting the enemy planes. Having to put in so much down elevator in CT once the flaps are down feels very unintuitive and greatly affects shooting accuracy for me, always has. Obviously some have figured it out, but I can't understand how, as you're obviously "pulling" hard if you're needing the flaps down, yet then you have to "push" in order to counter act the CT/Trim deal in order to keep your target in the right spot(s).
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So is there an advantage to turning CT off at a certain speed and leaving it there or do you really want to reset it throughout the fight? For example TC used to advise toggling it off at around 315-325 on a Corsair which translated (pre-graphics update in 2007 or so) to being right around where the bottom the "L" in "ELV" was. I stopped using it after the graphics update b/c I couldn't be that precise anymore.
What's the theory behind trimming out several times and leaving it trimmed for high speed all through the flight envelope? Wouldn't the latter present problems as well? I mean, TC and others are quite successful with it, but I'm wondering about the theory behind it and what's happening to my plane by leaving it trimmed at high speed.
Thanks.
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So is there an advantage to turning CT off at a certain speed and leaving it there or do you really want to reset it throughout the fight? For example TC used to advise toggling it off at around 315-325 on a Corsair which translated (pre-graphics update in 2007 or so) to being right around where the bottom the "L" in "ELV" was. I stopped using it after the graphics update b/c I couldn't be that precise anymore.
What's the theory behind trimming out several times and leaving it trimmed for high speed all through the flight envelope? Wouldn't the latter present problems as well? I mean, TC and others are quite successful with it, but I'm wondering about the theory behind it and what's happening to my plane by leaving it trimmed at high speed.
Thanks.
The reason I generally turn it off around 200 is that's generally where the flaps start coming out. I kick it off around 200, then I am trimming nose down as I pop flaps. I turn it off mostly because of the flaps forcing me to push forward a lot with CT on. Secondarily I personally find if I'm riding the edge of stall with CT on, when I'm holding the stick perfectly still when going around a corner, as speed changes, the CT changes where the trim is which alters what the plane is doing just slightly without me moving the stick. I find it makes it a lot easier for me to lose the edge and stall a wing in that situation, so that's why I turn it off.
If the guy starts to run and my speed goes over 250 or so, I turn it back on. YMMV.
Wiley.
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When you say "I am trimming nose down" are you physically inputting down trim or do you just pop CT off and call it a day?
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Once manual trimming is second nature, CT, is somewhat like having training wheels on your bicycle.
Some other pluses for manual trim. You can set any climb speed you want with manual trim. Taking off can have a very smooth transition to auto climb if you do not use auto take off. When dive bombing, manual trim can be set for a perfect slight down trim.
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So is there an advantage to turning CT off at a certain speed and leaving it there or do you really want to reset it throughout the fight? For example TC used to advise toggling it off at around 315-325 on a Corsair which translated (pre-graphics update in 2007 or so) to being right around where the bottom the "L" in "ELV" was. I stopped using it after the graphics update b/c I couldn't be that precise anymore.
What's the theory behind trimming out several times and leaving it trimmed for high speed all through the flight envelope? Wouldn't the latter present problems as well? I mean, TC and others are quite successful with it, but I'm wondering about the theory behind it and what's happening to my plane by leaving it trimmed at high speed.
Thanks.
Have you read the trim article on the training site? Trim (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/2-uncategorised/1053-trim-and-auto-trim)
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When you say "I am trimming nose down" are you physically inputting down trim or do you just pop CT off and call it a day?
Ah sorry. Manual trimming down. When you pop flaps at speed, your nose wants to go up so you've got to compensate.
Wiley.
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Landing with wheels down and two notches of flaps I always have to trim down.
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Have you read the trim article on the training site? Trim (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/2-uncategorised/1053-trim-and-auto-trim)
I hadn't. Thanks for the link. I don't use the auto trim for speed or angle unless I'm on climbout. I never thought of using them during a fight.
I do wonder if spending the time to learn how to optimally trim your ride throughout the flight envelope is more effective than simply learning one setting and how it makes the aircraft react during that same envelope?
I suppose you'd likely retain more E making minute adjustments with trim than less precise ones with elevator?
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Trim is used to reduce work in the cockpit. Instead of holding the stick and rudder in position for your current speed and attitude, trim does it for you. It doesn't matter what you use to move your control surfaces, trim or stick or pedals, just center the ball for minimum drag. Using auto angle (shift x) will set your trim for your current speed. To see the effect of rudder trim on your speed just watch the speedometer as you yaw a little.
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I always use manual trim, with combat trim on the response is to slow, I can adjust manually quicker
therefore using less stick and reducing G's therefore able to keep more E.
Not saying I'm a great pilot but seems to work for me, it will take time to remember where you trim
set is, I rely on elevator's more and have rudder peddles so no need to trim them, I keep them centered.
I use aerlon trim when low slow and in a tight turn, but you have to again remember where you trim is set
once out of the fight.
<S>
weiser
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I use combat trim only for a quick trim adjustment -- just toggle it on and off as needed. Most of the time I manually trim.
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When you say "I am trimming nose down" are you physically inputting down trim or do you just pop CT off and call it a day?
Manual trim is likely better, but increases the work load, and you have to have trim wheels on your stick to get the most out of it. That said, turning it on and off does improve things a bit especially when you're flying flap monsters like the F4U series.
Back in the day when I spent time with a trainer, TC was a hog pilot and he trained me. His advise was to turn combat trim off at 200 mph in a hog when the fight started to slow down. It removed the constant fight with the stick you had when you were doing nose high maneuvers, and when you were really on the edge of a stall. I was skeptical but noticed it the most when I was at the top of a loop trying to get a shot on someone. With CT on, it would pitch over well beyond the input I was giving the stick, and frequently wouldn't even fly straight with the stick buried forward. With CT off at the top of a loop, there may be a slight lead due to the current setting, but it was easily corrected for. Some planes aren't as effected, but my advise is once the flaps come out, turn off CT. Trust me, you will see a difference, and a positive one.
:salute
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I trained with TC too but he told me to trim out between 315 and 325 I believe, so there's a lot of info going around.
Regardless, I wonder how much E I'm burning with ct on, flaps out, and ct pushing me nose as high as possible the whole time.
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I leave CT on in the MA, it doesn't hinder general combat manoeuvres.
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I leave CT on in the MA, it doesn't hinder general combat manoeuvres.
i think it's plane and fighting style dependent. Fly a hog with flaps out, big difference. Fly a 190 BNZ style, very little difference.
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i think it's plane and fighting style dependent. Fly a hog with flaps out, big difference. Fly a 190 BNZ style, very little difference.
Do you have to mess with aileron trim at all or are you just playing around with elevator, btw? Or do you simply turn off CT when you drop your first flap and call it a day.
If I'm at flap speed and not on initial climb out, I likely am in the middle of some maneuver and not flying level... do you find any adverse effects to turning off CT in the middle of a hard turn/barrel roll/etc.?
Thanks for your help
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Do you have to mess with aileron trim at all or are you just playing around with elevator, btw? Or do you simply turn off CT when you drop your first flap and call it a day.
If I'm at flap speed and not on initial climb out, I likely am in the middle of some maneuver and not flying level... do you find any adverse effects to turning off CT in the middle of a hard turn/barrel roll/etc.?
Thanks for your help
I just toggle it off when I engage and things start to get twisty, typically at a specific speed.
To review, CT sets trim automatically based on speed (more or less). Auto climb is an adaptation of combat trim. It sets trim to maintain a set speed. That speed results in a climb at full power, and can be used to descend similarly (power off, turn on "auto climb", and you will descend at that speed). At other times, CT tries to set the trim tabs so you have zero stick deflection to stay on that course. It's also assuming level flight, no flaps basically (could be wrong on that, but that's what it feels like)
I may not be the expert, but here's what I've experienced. CT reacts a little slow, and during violent maneuvers where your speed changes quickly, CT can't keep up. I see it most effecting me when I go nose up in a zoom climb after a con. As I rapidly slow down with CT on, the nose pitches up violently, so much so forward pressure on the stick is required to keep it straight. Sometimes, when getting really slow it's so harsh, I can't keep on the same vector with full forward stick. To solve that problem, in a hog as things start, I turn it off, in hog at about 200 MPH, this freezes the trim tabs where they are. I don't feel any issues as I get slower, if I seem to be holding too much pressure to maintain my vector, I turn it on for a second, it resets, then I turn it off again. Normally, I feel nothing until speeds pick back up (like red guy is now diving toward their ack), and I notice it starts to nose up the faster I go. No biggie, I just hit the switch and turn it back on. It's never a dramatic change, subtle really. Through out a fight I turn it on and off depending on how much constant pressure I need on the stick for the plane to do what I want. If I am in a real slow fight and notice it's nosing up (or down) I hit the switch on then off, and things equalize.
Try it once. Leave CT on, go into a zoom climb, pop flaps near the top and you will see it rolls over almost on it's own when you get really slow. Try it again, turning CT off as you zoom climb and you will see that at the top, you have to provide the incentive to flop over on your back. You can also see the effect when landing. Most planes nose up when you drop flaps. Turn CT off just before you do that, and it's less apparent.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
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I use it to quickly toggle to correct the trim at a given speed. Flying the 38 CT doesn't get it for me. It seems to like to keep the nose too heavy in dives and too light in turn fights. I manually trim a bit nose low when turning as it's natural to pull through a turn than push the nose back down. Same for dives where I'll trim up to maintain better control. Either way, once I've turned it off I'm adjusting manually until I'm cruising somewhere again.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
This is pretty much how I use it. Hit it to adjust trim to a given flight speed. As it shuts off the moment you apply manual trim it is off for me most of the time in combat. I have trim on a 4 way hat on the stick under my thumb so I am constantly adjusting trim to apply small adjustments, primarily in pitch. If I had to do that on a keyboard I would go nuts, I'd probably just leave CT on.
For beginners i would say leave it on until you know how trim affects the aircraft.
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I hadn't. Thanks for the link. I don't use the auto trim for speed or angle unless I'm on climbout. I never thought of using them during a fight.
All of these will snap your wings level. I don't see how you can use those modes in a fight. AT for speed can kill you if your low and slow! I will use AT for angles sometimes if I am zooming up or in a controlled dive as pitch trim still works in that mode.
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Trim is used to reduce work in the cockpit. Instead of holding the stick and rudder in position for your current speed and attitude, trim does it for you. It doesn't matter what you use to move your control surfaces, trim or stick or pedals, just center the ball for minimum drag. Using auto angle (shift x) will set your trim for your current speed. To see the effect of rudder trim on your speed just watch the speedometer as you yaw a little.
All true, but in AH trim actually moves the control surfaces, unlike trim tabs in real life. So you can use trim for fine adjustments to get the piper on target, pull a control locked aircraft out of a dive, etc.
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All true, but in AH trim actually moves the control surfaces, unlike trim tabs in real life. So you can use trim for fine adjustments to get the piper on target, pull a control locked aircraft out of a dive, etc.
In real life the trim tabs move the control surfaces and can pull a locked aircraft out of a dive so what's the difference?
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In real life the trim tabs move the control surfaces and can pull a locked aircraft out of a dive so what's the difference?
Well, I'll have to admit, I did not know that.
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Well, I'll have to admit, I did not know that.
The reason trim tabs move the stick in real aircraft is because the stick is connected to the control surfaces that the trim tabs move.
The effect of trim in AH is the same as in real aircraft except it doesn't change your stick position. You can still trim forces off your stick but you're trimming off the spring force as the stick moves back to center.
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I found CT to be too cumbersome and slow for me so I turned off all axis scaling on my HOTAS as the pots tested to be stable enough to allow this then use the autopilot-level to "trim" up making note of the airspeed that I'm trimming at AND making sure that I have the stick and rudders CENTERED (AH trims the plane forces to the stick\rudder control center where as in RL you're trim to center the stick\rudder control to the plane forces) then do my thing as this trims up very fast and can be done during a fight, usually when extending to prepare for another merge.
I've found that the closer the stick\rudder control is to true center (no deadband or damping applied) the better the in game trim results are, at least for me they are. I also should note that I'm also running my CH HOTAS thru a Gigabyte USB 3.1\3.0 Type C USB\PCI-E add-in card in the 3rd CPU-dedicated PCI-E x16 slot (by-passes the X99 chipset) using power off the PCI-E slot which helps my HOTAS stick\rudder movements to be even more stable than they tested to be.......so I'm not using a std USB mobo header cluster w\ my HOTAS as I had issues using them thru my mobo USB headers (POST ID issues) when I upgraded to the CPU\mobo\mem in sig some time back.
:salute