Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 19, 2016, 11:29:06 AM
Nice picture. 7 degrees is not half extended. I don't think the pilot handbook is wrong. I think the modern pilot has a different notion of "maneuver" settings because flaps that don't extend and increase the wing area like Fowler flaps are typically around 10 degrees. The P-38 is different. Ask him what the the deflection is for half flaps. =)
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Dobs on September 19, 2016, 01:32:57 PM
Based on your answers from previous posts your knowledge is obviously high, so you are aware that there is a stop for the flaps called maneuver. It precludes you from having to hold the flap lever to Open while watching the flap gauge to get the desired amount of flaps.
So the guy who pilots this aircraft isn't aware of what the maneuver flap setting is actually doing to his aircraft is what you are saying...
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Traveler on September 19, 2016, 01:54:58 PM
FLS is correct. Go to the original document the AAF P38 flight manual 51-127-1. on pages 50 - 52. Where it describes the maneuver indent setting of the flap control handle and describes the Maneuvering flap setting as "approximately half". That document is the original source. https://archive.org/details/PilotTrainingManualP38 (https://archive.org/details/PilotTrainingManualP38)
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Traveler on September 19, 2016, 02:02:46 PM
Based on your answers from previous posts your knowledge is obviously high, so you are aware that there is a stop for the flaps called maneuver. It precludes you from having to hold the flap lever to Open while watching the flap gauge to get the desired amount of flaps.
So the guy who pilots this aircraft isn't aware of what the maneuver flap setting is actually doing to his aircraft is what you are saying...
Yes Dobs, the guys answer is wrong. Go to Page 52 in this document, the original source on the P38 :https://archive.org/details/PilotTrainingManualP38 (https://archive.org/details/PilotTrainingManualP38)
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 19, 2016, 02:03:03 PM
Based on your answers from previous posts your knowledge is obviously high, so you are aware that there is a stop for the flaps called maneuver. It precludes you from having to hold the flap lever to Open while watching the flap gauge to get the desired amount of flaps.
So the guy who pilots this aircraft isn't aware of what the maneuver flap setting is actually doing to his aircraft is what you are saying...
I could be wrong, I'm just trying to make sense of all the different data. What fits the information about aerodynamic performance from Lockheed and wind tunnel testing matches the 3rd notch in Aces High at a 30 degree flap extension.
I know the maneuver setting was added to later models, I don't know what the Red Bull P-38 uses but it's an early model P-38. Look at this video. I believe it shows the flaps going to the maneuver setting for landing, half extended looks around 30 degrees. Flap extension at 4:20.
The reason the flaps go up again before going further down is because the flap lever needs to be moved forward of the locked position before going back past the maneuver position to full down. This prevents the flaps being pulled past the maneuver position in the heat of combat.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Traveler on September 19, 2016, 02:13:17 PM
I could be wrong, I'm just trying to make sense of all the different data. What fits the information about aerodynamic performance from Lockheed and wind tunnel testing matches the 3rd notch in Aces High at a 30 degree flap extension.
I know the maneuver setting was added to later models, I don't know what the Red Bull P-38 uses but it's an early model P-38. Look at this video. I believe it shows the flaps going to the maneuver setting for landing, half extended looks around 30 degrees.
My question is what is the extension. HTC has not provided an exact flap model of the P38. To make the game easy for the general public all aircraft have flap functioning in the same way, that is , 5 positions of flap. to fully extend flaps on the P38 you press the flap extension button 5 times. The original training manual calls that 100% flaps. But what is it really, is that percentage of wing area that has been created? In real life P38, the flap could be stopped at any position along is travel by moving the flap control handle to the "Closed" position. So, in AH3 what percent of flap extension are we talking about with each push of the button?
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 19, 2016, 02:22:23 PM
My question is what is the extension. HTC has not provided an exact flap model of the P38. To make the game easy for the general public all aircraft have flap functioning in the same way, that is , 5 positions of flap. to fully extend flaps on the P38 you press the flap extension button 5 times. The original training manual calls that 100% flaps. But what is it really, is that percentage of wing area that has been created? In real life P38, the flap could be stopped at any position along is travel by moving the flap control handle to the "Closed" position. So, in AH3 what percent of flap extension are we talking about with each push of the button?
The early P-38s had a flap gauge that shows Up, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, Down if I remember correctly. You can see that in the Zeno's video about flying the P-38. 100% flaps would be full down. I'm guessing the max flap deflection is near 45 to 50 degrees. Hitech has mentioned the first notch in AH is about 8 degrees but the graphic may not match the exact flap extension. The 5 notches are probably a programming efficiency that gives useful positions with less CPU work.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Randy1 on September 19, 2016, 02:27:45 PM
Okay FLS, one more time. 8 degrees is about 50% of the flap extension mechanism travel. The manual is right, and 8 degrees is right.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Traveler on September 19, 2016, 02:35:34 PM
The early P-38s had a flap gauge that shows Up, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, Down if I remember correctly. You can see that in the Zeno's video about flying the P-38. 100% flaps would be full down. I'm guessing the max flap deflection is near 45 to 50 degrees. Hitech has mentioned the first notch in AH is about 8 degrees but the graphic may not match the exact flap extension. The 5 notches are probably a programming efficiency that gives useful positions with less CPU work. [/quote
I worked part time for a company out of KBLM that provided static aircraft displays of WWII aircraft, they had a P38G along with B25, F4U, P40, P51 and spitfire and I don't re-call seeing any flap gauge except for the Flap handle. I spent move of my time in the B25 and P40. The company like to subcontract out for professional pilots, I was with Eastern at the time. It was something to do during the summer. I've heard that 8 degrees number before, but 8 degrees of what?
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Dobs on September 19, 2016, 02:36:55 PM
I'm with you FLS...contradicting data sources..from Pilot Operating Handbook to America's Hundred Thousand...
Seems to me the setting with most lift/least drag combo is what you would want.
<S>!
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Traveler on September 19, 2016, 02:38:37 PM
I'm with you FLS...contradicting data sources..from Pilot Operating Handbook to America's Hundred Thousand...
Seems to me the setting with most lift/least drag combo is what you would want.
<S>!
That is exactly what they say in the original source: https://archive.org/details/PilotTrainingManualP38 (https://archive.org/details/PilotTrainingManualP38)
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Ack-Ack on September 19, 2016, 02:41:04 PM
I don't think the Red Bull P-38 has maneuver flaps. It's a P-38F-5G- 6-LO, maneuver flaps weren't added to the P-38F until the -15 block. I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Bull pilot was mistaken.
Maybe it would be better to call someone at the Planes of Fame museum in Chino, they have a pilot there that flies their P-38J and would definitely know the answer.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 19, 2016, 02:44:15 PM
I worked part time for a company out of KBLM that provided static aircraft displays of WWII aircraft, they had a P38G along with B25, F4U, P40, P51 and spitfire and I don't re-call seeing any flap gauge except for the Flap handle. I spent move of my time in the B25 and P40. The company like to subcontract out for professional pilots, I was with Eastern at the time. It was something to do during the summer. I've heard that 8 degrees number before, but 8 degrees of what?
The first notch of flaps in the AH P-38 is deflected 8 degrees down from full up if I understand Hitech correctly. This is similar to the combat flap setting in aircraft like the P-51, P-47, and F4U.
I don't think the Red Bull P-38 has maneuver flaps. It's a P-38F-5G- 6-LO, maneuver flaps weren't added to the P-38F until the -15 block. I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Bull pilot was mistaken.
Maybe it would be better to call someone at the Planes of Fame museum in Chino, they have a pilot there that flies their P-38J and would definitely know the answer.
I wouldn't say Mr Riedmann is mistaken, I'd say he's flying a different model aircraft.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Dobs on September 19, 2016, 02:59:41 PM
The website says P38L.
One of the cockpit shots (note reference to Aileron boost--not in F models, started with Late model J's): (http://www.flyingbulls.at/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_lightning-010_706d71034d.jpg)
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: katanaso on September 19, 2016, 03:23:39 PM
Heya Dobs,
I'm showing it as a P38-F as well, even in their press junket: http://www.flyingbulls.at/fileadmin/content/pdf/flotte/lockheed_p-38_lightning/lockheed_p-38_lightning_EN_25.03.2016.pdf
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 19, 2016, 03:45:15 PM
The engines air scoops don't look like an L model but they may not be original. The F-5G-6-LO designation may be a modified photo recon aircraft. The serial number indicates delivery after May 1945 which is likely an L model. The cockpit photo shows a modern custom cockpit.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: katanaso on September 19, 2016, 03:51:13 PM
FLS, this is from the pdf I linked above, from their website:
"In September 1945, the P-38 F-5G-6-LO with serial number 44-53254 was dismissed from the Air Force and registered as civil aircraft N25Y by the Lilee Products Co. in Chicago."
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Dawger on September 19, 2016, 03:54:39 PM
I'm showing it as a P38-F as well, even in their press junket: http://www.flyingbulls.at/fileadmin/content/pdf/flotte/lockheed_p-38_lightning/lockheed_p-38_lightning_EN_25.03.2016.pdf
Its an L model that came off the line as an F-5G-6-LO.
Maneuver flaps is 8 degrees AND 50% flaps.
The ONLY difference in a maneuver flap and no-maneuver flap P-38 is the Selector in the cockpit. The flap system itself is identical.
It was an ergonomics issue with the new selector allowing the pilot the ability to positively select maneuver flaps easily without looking or leaving his hand on the actuator.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 19, 2016, 03:55:14 PM
From wiki.
F-5G Reconnaissance variant conversions of the P-38L, had a different camera configuration from the F-5F.[116]
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 19, 2016, 04:00:31 PM
You're saying the flaps extend out halfway and deflect 8 degrees? The half extension in the video is more than 8 degrees, can they extend halfway at 2 different angles?
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Randy1 on September 19, 2016, 04:28:09 PM
You're saying the flaps extend out halfway and deflect 8 degrees? The half extension in the video is more than 8 degrees, can they extend halfway at 2 different angles?
You just want give up on this one fls so I give up. I suspect you have been called hard headed more than once.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 19, 2016, 05:05:42 PM
Better hard than soft. :D
Take a look at US WW2 fighter flap speed limits at other deflections. Compare to the P38 maneuver limit.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Dawger on September 19, 2016, 06:19:48 PM
The pilot training manual does say maneuver flaps is approximately half but it does not specify half deflection.
My experience with Fowler flap systems (quite a bit) is that they extend much more than they deflect and the pilot training manual reflects this.
It specifically says the maneuver flaps or 1/2 flaps provides increased wing area and provides greater lift. Beyond half, they act as airbrakes.
In general, with ALL flap systems, the first 10 degrees is almost all lift with almost no parasitic drag (there is an increase in induced drag). With Fowler flaps extending aft, increasing wing area as the first 10 degrees ( most Fowler systems are 8 degrees or 12 degrees for the first detent), the lift increase is very dramatic.
Once you get past that first 10 degrees of DEFLECTION the flap add lots more drag than they do lift.
The P-38 training manual is in line with the aerodynamics of that situation.
Maneuver flaps on the P-38 (as verified by the Red Bull pilot) is 8 degrees DEFLECTION and 50% EXTENSION producing boatloads of lift with very little drag penalty.
Flaps deflection past that is almost all parasitic drag with a smaller component of additional lift.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 19, 2016, 06:36:39 PM
Generally all flap systems are mostly lift the first half and mostly drag the second half of extension.
The dive flaps are 35 degrees if you want to visually compare angles.
Any idea why Fowler flap wind tunnel testing set the flaps at 30 degrees?
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: katanaso on September 19, 2016, 07:39:16 PM
The first notch of flaps in the AH P-38 is deflected 8 degrees down from full up if I understand Hitech correctly. This is similar to the combat flap setting in aircraft like the P-51, P-47, and F4U.
"8 degrees down" 8 degrees down from the cord line? or because it's flower flaps, did the flap roll back on it's track from within the wing, adding wing area of 8 degrees. I've seen the Hitech statement about the first notch of flaps being 8 degrees, but that doesn't put out a hell of a lot of flaps, on the P38 flap actuator handle, when you move it to the manvu position that motor runs for a long time and puts out a lot of flap, it still might only be 8 degrees down from the wing cord line but extended well back.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Dobs on September 19, 2016, 11:17:40 PM
So this has always been "the great mystery" of the 38.
WWII aircraft performance has a blurb in their test report that the 38G with maneuver flap made up 180 degrees in a 360 vs the 38F (with no flaps). http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38g-tactical-trials.html (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38g-tactical-trials.html) With no 38F in the game, makes that hard to compare:)
America's Hundred Thousand rates the turn radius of the 38 (with the disclaimer of "no maneuver flaps" used) just in front of the jug and F4U . See link here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYQTdnU1piY3ZRMzQ/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYQTdnU1piY3ZRMzQ/view?usp=sharing)
The 38 had two achilles--dive speed (.65 mach limit), and roll inertia. Once you got her rolling she rolled, but getting her rolling was another thing. With the advent of boosted ailerons, roll at speed was great...but did nothing for roll at lower speeds where full deflection of control surfaces was achievable. See link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYRVVGY2gwWEhLNGM/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYRVVGY2gwWEhLNGM/view?usp=sharing)
Difference in boosted and unboosted can be seen here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYZjZzRlRFeWhWeU0/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYZjZzRlRFeWhWeU0/view?usp=sharing)
So whatever the degree's of flaps may be for maneuver (be it 1 click or 3 clicks) they need to be deploy-able at 250mph or less, and if it is 3 clicks, needs a "maneuver flap" button to program a single press to get it there.
PS. FLS--no maneuver flaps in the F4U-just 10 degree increments to 50 degrees:)
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 20, 2016, 12:46:24 AM
"8 degrees down" 8 degrees down from the cord line? or because it's flower flaps, did the flap roll back on it's track from within the wing, adding wing area of 8 degrees. I've seen the Hitech statement about the first notch of flaps being 8 degrees, but that doesn't put out a hell of a lot of flaps, on the P38 flap actuator handle, when you move it to the manvu position that motor runs for a long time and puts out a lot of flap, it still might only be 8 degrees down from the wing cord line but extended well back.
I believe he was talking about deflection of the first notch of flaps which are slightly extended. If Dawger is correct then it should be 8 degrees deflection on a %50 extension. The Hinton video is showing the extension but to me it looks like more than 8 degrees deflection.
Dobs you can compare turns in the P-38 with and without flaps without needing a P-38 G and F. The F4U has a 10 degree flap setting, the question for Randy was what is the limit speed for a "combat" deflection of 10 degrees in other US fighters, is it as low as 250 MPH?
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Traveler on September 20, 2016, 06:41:30 AM
I believe he was talking about deflection of the first notch of flaps which are slightly extended. If Dawger is correct then it should be 8 degrees deflection on a %50 extension. The Hinton video is showing the extension but to me it looks like more than 8 degrees deflection.
I agree on the8 degrees deflection, whoever, that's not %50 of the flap. Unfortunately in AH we can't lower the flaps 50%, it's either something below or above.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 20, 2016, 07:10:30 AM
I agree on the8 degrees deflection, whoever, that's not %50 of the flap. Unfortunately in AH we can't lower the flaps 50%, it's either something below or above.
The 3rd notch of flaps looks like %50 to me.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Dobs on September 20, 2016, 08:09:58 AM
"..the question for Randy was what is the limit speed for a "combat" deflection of 10 degrees in other US fighters, is it as low as 250 MPH?"
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: Dawger on September 20, 2016, 08:48:30 AM
If the Hinton video referenced is the POF flight with the P-40, you can clearly see the 8 degree maneuver selection, and the flap panel is about halfway past the trailing edge and then Hinton demonstrates why the new flap selector with a positive detent for maneuver flaps was so necessary.
The flaps go back up a bit as he fiddles with the selector before getting all the flaps out.
You can see from the shadow in the gap between the trailing edge and flap panel that the angle is minor in the first flap position.
If you compare the deflection angle of full flaps to the first angle, visually the angle difference between the two in the video appears to be full flaps is about five times the deflection of the maneuver setting at 4:25 in the video.
It is certainly much more than twice the maneuver setting, so the visual evidence alone tells you maneuver flap definately is NOT half deflection ( 20 degrees). It is something less than 20 and there is evidence for 8 degrees being the actual deflection number.
Title: Re: When in doubt, go to the source...
Post by: FLS on September 20, 2016, 10:02:48 AM
Here's a pic of the Redbull P-38 with flaps half extended. To me it looks like more than a minor angle. I know 30 degrees sounds like a lot for maneuver flaps. There are enough P-38s still around you'd think this would be a trivial question to answer. :D
So whatever the degree's of flaps may be for maneuver (be it 1 click or 3 clicks) they need to be deploy-able at 250mph or less, and if it is 3 clicks, needs a "maneuver flap" button to program a single press to get it there.
You can press or program 3 quick key presses and the flaps go straight to the %50 extension.