General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GScholz on September 28, 2016, 01:04:51 PM
Title: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 28, 2016, 01:04:51 PM
The CF-104 Starfighter was retired in 1983 in RNoAF service when it was replaced by the F-16. For the last decade a small group of enthusiasts here in my hometown have been working on the last surviving example in Norway to get it flying again. Earlier today No. 637 made its first flight in 33 years, with F-16 pilot Eskil "TAZ" Amdal at the controls. Affectionately known as "Vestfjordoksen" - "The Vestfjord-bull" because of the distinct bellowing sound of the J79.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Chalenge on September 28, 2016, 01:57:16 PM
I love that jet. It and the Hustler are my favorites.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Ripsnort on September 28, 2016, 02:01:38 PM
We had a J79 that would fire up in building next to us that was transformed into a natural gas (or perhaps propane) burner. It was used to an emergency generator and they would fire it up now and then to make sure it worked.
That thing even customized with all sorts of vented exhaust was loud!
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Oldman731 on September 28, 2016, 03:26:47 PM
I love that jet. It and the Hustler are my favorites.
Agreed.
Some of the TV stations used to show this as the last thing before they shut down for the night:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTms_G1yYPc
- oldman
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Devil 505 on September 28, 2016, 03:37:40 PM
I've always loved the F-104 because of it's scene in The Right Stuff.
:rock
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 28, 2016, 04:05:51 PM
Yes it's my favorite jet fighter as well. I have three aviation related framed paintings on the wall of my home-theater/gaming room. All feature the Starfighter. I've had them since I was a kid (air force brat).
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: icepac on September 28, 2016, 05:58:52 PM
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: BuckShot on September 28, 2016, 06:16:30 PM
The 104 looks fast while standing still. I like the ol' Delta Dart for the same reason.
As a kid, I asked my dad how the Starfighter can fly with those tiny wings.
He said "lots of power and speed. You could fly a sheet of plywood if you had an engine powerful enough and a way to keep it angled right." He was a physics and chem teacher.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 28, 2016, 06:45:39 PM
Some of the TV stations used to show this as the last thing before they shut down for the night:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTms_G1yYPc
- oldman
Holy flashbacks to childhood Batman! Loved that. Used to stay up just to see that 104 and hear that Spit pilots poem :aok
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: MiloMorai on September 29, 2016, 12:45:42 AM
A USAF F-104 busted out all the windows and did other damage to the new (then) Ottawa terminal on a low flyby at M1+.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: BOBO on September 29, 2016, 08:58:21 AM
I thought it was nicknamed The Ground Nail
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 29, 2016, 09:30:30 AM
It had many nicknames. Some good, some bad. Mostly bad in Germany. ;)
The West-Germans bought 916 F-104Gs. They lost 292 aircraft and 116 pilots in accidents... His vocal opposition to the 104 also cost "Bubi" Hartmann his job in the Luftwaffe. German music band "Welle Erdball" even made a song about a pilot trapped in a 104 going down.
Nothing like German electronic music to bring back the horrors of the Cold War...
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Ripsnort on September 29, 2016, 09:34:00 AM
The 104 catapulted Kelly Johnson's career and shot down Eric Hartmann's career. Excuse the puns. :bolt:
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 29, 2016, 10:04:32 AM
The most advanced version was the Italian 104S ASA-M. It was in service until 2004! With modern radar, radar guided missiles, 9 external hardpoints, uprated engine and strengthened structure, it was a competent interceptor even in the new millennium.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: MiloMorai on September 29, 2016, 10:18:08 AM
The Germans used it in a role it was not designed for > ground attack.
The West German Luftwaffe received a total of 915 Starfighters (30 F-104Fs, 96 F-104Gs, and 136 TF-104Gs from Lockheed, 255 F/RF-104Gs from the North Group, 210 F-104Gs from the South Group, 88 F-104Gs from the West Group, 50 F/RF-104Gs from the Italian Group, plus 50 replacement F-104Gs from MBB to replace some of those lost in crashes).
During its period of service with the German armed forces, about 270 German Starfighters were lost in accidents, just under 30 percent of the total force. About 110 pilots were killed. However, the attrition rate in German service was not all that much greater than that of the F-104 in service with several other air forces, including the United States Air Force. Canada had the unenviable record of losing over 50 percent of its 200 single-seat CF-104s in flying accidents. The loss rate of Luftwaffe Starfighters was not all that extraordinary, since the Luftwaffe had suffered a 36 percent attrition rate with the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak, the Starfighter's immediate predecessor. There was nothing intrinsically dangerous about the Starfighter, since the Royal Norwegian Air Force operating identical F-104Gs suffered only six losses in 56,000 flying hours, and the Spanish Air Force lost not a single one of its Starfighters to accidents.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 29, 2016, 10:27:50 AM
There was nothing intrinsically dangerous about the Starfighter...
The Germans did suffer from a lot of technical issues with their 104Gs. It really wasn't suited for central-north European climate and there were a lot of engine failures, asymmetric flap deployment, cockpit pressurization and oxygen system failures. The list goes on...
http://www.916-starfighter.de/GAF_crashes.htm
My father once told me of this German 104 that entered our airspace. Flying on autopilot, pilot unconscious or dead due to oxygen system failure. Our 104 pilots tried in vain to establish contact with the German pilot, and after a while he ran out of fuel and crashed.
That accident is on that list: 06.12.1965 DA+254 7105 F-104G JaboG 31 pilot got incapacitated and died due to oxygen problems, aircraft flew on Autopilot and crashed near Narwik, Norway.
Our pilots were ordered to shoot him down if he got too close to Narvik.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 29, 2016, 11:13:55 AM
Trivia: In the music video "Welle Erdball" is singing about Oberleutnant zur See Joachim von Hassel who crashed and died in 1970. He was the son of politician Kai-Uwe von Hassel, president of the Bundestag.
10.03.1970 21+28 6689 RF-104G MFG 2 spatial disorientation during GCA into Eggebek AB, pilot was killed
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 29, 2016, 11:26:20 AM
Last year RTL made a TV movie about the German experience with the F-104.
Looks pretty good. Will have to look for it.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Brooke on September 29, 2016, 04:02:14 PM
Last year RTL made a TV movie about the German experience with the F-104.
Looks pretty good. Will have to look for it.
Cool! I wonder if it will have a subtitled version anywhere.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: DaveBB on September 29, 2016, 04:25:34 PM
The F-104 was designed to combat Migs. The design basis came from the experience in the Korean War. I don't think they went the right direction with this aircraft. The only thing that really made this aircraft competent was pilot training. But pilot training is 90% of the battle.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: pipz on September 29, 2016, 06:00:06 PM
Very cool. :aok
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Gman on September 29, 2016, 10:20:42 PM
Great vids in this thread - the Italian model Gscholz posted, a friend of mine that runs the website "The Aviationist" is x Italian air force and has written a great book about Italian F104s, and has a lot of great articles on his site too. Book here - https://theaviationist.com/2010/03/10/italian-starfighters-eng/
A favorite of mine as well, the CF104 was a fighter the RCAF flew here for a long time for better and worse. Norway, Denmark, and Turkey all flew Canadair 104s in their fleets as well. The first model I built which I did a decent job on was a Tiger Meet CF104, and it's still my favorite.
It had the rep of the "widowmaker" in the Canadian media too - 110 major class accidents in the 25 years the RCAF flew it, but it did do the job during the cold war, with a lot of Canadian squadrons forward deployed in Germany/etc. Considering that the predecessor F86 in only 12 years of flying had over 250 major class accidents for the loss of 3x more pilots than the F104, the title IMO while sort of fair considering 1/2 the airplanes built were lost, wasn't completely accurate considering past fighter losses, and that 1/3 of the pilots killed in the F104 when compared to the 100+ in the F86.
Fantastic plane to see at airshows, for sure. The CF5 is the only other fighter Canada has built and flown in great numbers during the cold war. It was a great low level attack performer, taken from Wiki, but I've read this quote many places before -
Quote
The 104 was very difficult to attack owing to its small size, speed, and low altitude capability. Dave Jurkowski, former CF-104 and CF-18 pilot is quoted "Because of our speed, size and lower level operations, no Canadian Zipper driver was ever 'shot down' by either air or ground threats in the three Red Flag Exercises in which we participated."
- and, it was a rocket on the deck, again, the air shows it would put on largely consisted of very, very high speed passes, which were always a good time.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 30, 2016, 09:17:47 AM
The F-104 was designed to combat Migs. The design basis came from the experience in the Korean War. I don't think they went the right direction with this aircraft. The only thing that really made this aircraft competent was pilot training. But pilot training is 90% of the battle.
With its awesome climb rate and acceleration it did well as a strategic interceptor, which was its main role in the USAF. However it lost badly to MiG-21s in the Indo-Pakistani war of 1971. Indian MiG-21s shot down four Pakistani F-104s in two separate engagements for zero losses of their own. With only rear aspect heat seekers and cannon for armament maneuverability is important.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 30, 2016, 10:03:38 AM
Great vids in this thread - the Italian model Gscholz posted, a friend of mine that runs the website "The Aviationist" is x Italian air force and has written a great book about Italian F104s, and has a lot of great articles on his site too. Book here - https://theaviationist.com/2010/03/10/italian-starfighters-eng/
A favorite of mine as well, the CF104 was a fighter the RCAF flew here for a long time for better and worse. Norway, Denmark, and Turkey all flew Canadair 104s in their fleets as well. The first model I built which I did a decent job on was a Tiger Meet CF104, and it's still my favorite.
It had the rep of the "widowmaker" in the Canadian media too - 110 major class accidents in the 25 years the RCAF flew it, but it did do the job during the cold war, with a lot of Canadian squadrons forward deployed in Germany/etc. Considering that the predecessor F86 in only 12 years of flying had over 250 major class accidents for the loss of 3x more pilots than the F104, the title IMO while sort of fair considering 1/2 the airplanes built were lost, wasn't completely accurate considering past fighter losses, and that 1/3 of the pilots killed in the F104 when compared to the 100+ in the F86.
Fantastic plane to see at airshows, for sure. The CF5 is the only other fighter Canada has built and flown in great numbers during the cold war. It was a great low level attack performer, taken from Wiki, but I've read this quote many places before -
- and, it was a rocket on the deck, again, the air shows it would put on largely consisted of very, very high speed passes, which were always a good time.
Theaviationist is one of my favorite aviation related news sites as well. Usually quite balanced and objective journalism.
No. 637 is a CF-104D two-seater, built in your great country. We had two squadrons operating Starfighters; 331 Sqd. flew the F-104G while 334 Sqd. flew the CF-104. 334 Sqd. lost four jets; two were controlled flight into terrain, one loss of control at low alt, and one engine failure. 331 Sqd. suffered far more with nine losses. Six of those were due to malfunctions or loss of control.
The F-104 was very unforgivable. It could not be landed safely without its blown flaps and boundary layer systems working. This meant that with any engine malfunction resulting in loss of thrust, any problems with the flaps, any problem with the boundary layer system, the only option for the pilot was ejecting. Add to that the fact that the 104 was prone to accelerated stalls due to its high wing-loading, and that if stalled at speed the nose would pitch up and the aircraft would pancake into the direction of travel and enter into an unrecoverable flat spin. Well... you end up with an aircraft that everything must work right and you must do everything right, otherwise your only option is to put your life into the hands of Mr. Martin and Mr. Baker. In US service the F-104 had almost twice the accident rate of the other century fighters.
I still love it though... It just looks right.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on September 30, 2016, 10:22:31 AM
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Brooke on September 30, 2016, 12:45:25 PM
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Rich46yo on September 30, 2016, 06:47:31 PM
I remember the Turks flying those things around. Rumor had it that two were flying in tandem and one turned right when he was supposed to turn left crashing them both and killing his wing man. In short order the offending pilot, who had bailed out, found himself in front of a firing squad. They dont like it when millions of dollars of aircraft are lost cause a pilot doesnt know right from left. I always believed the story.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: mthrockmor on October 01, 2016, 10:57:52 AM
As the F-15 was being developed there was a plan to beef up the 104, add some recessed spots for AIM-7Es and fill the F-15 role. Didn't happen of course, but neat concept.
boo
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on October 01, 2016, 12:28:29 PM
Some more video of 637's flight:
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Brooke on October 01, 2016, 12:35:10 PM
How was the F-104 vs. the Soviet competition? It seems a lot better than a Mig-15 or Mig-17, but is a Mig-21 better? Is the Mig-21 the plane that would be the F-104's competition?
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: GScholz on October 01, 2016, 01:53:34 PM
These were the first generation of Mach 2 capable tactical fighters. Of these the Mirage stands out as the best fighter with the MiG-21 in second place. The F-4 stands out as the best fighter-bomber with its massive payload. The F-104 is easily the poorest of the lot. The Mirage stands out to me because it was as good or better than all the other planes in every category (except the F-4's payload). It had excellent acceleration/climb and Mach 2+ top speed. It was maneuverable (for its time). It had long range (longer than the F-4 in fact). It had a good radar and excellent weapons. The Israelis proved the Mirage III's effectiveness in combat vs many other aircraft including the MiG-21.
In addition to these the USAF operated a pure strategic interceptor, the F-106 which also first flew in 1956 and was Mach 2 capable. I'm not familiar enough with this plane to compare it to the others.
Just looking at it it is hard to believe the Mirage III is a 1950s design like the century fighters. The French really were ahead of the curve with this one.
Title: Re: The Widowmaker flies again after 33 years...
Post by: Brooke on October 01, 2016, 02:21:57 PM