General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: icepac on December 02, 2016, 07:10:09 AM
Title: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: icepac on December 02, 2016, 07:10:09 AM
Pretty historic moment with hardly a mention in the press.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH1bv9fAxiY
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: FLOOB on December 02, 2016, 10:07:56 AM
Better late than never.
wait does that apply to catastrophic nuclear reactor core meltdowns and explosions?
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: Randy1 on December 02, 2016, 12:09:19 PM
In the years to come we will have something similar to that here in the US. The nuclear plant workers I know have made note of the continuing layoffs and demand management style that has the nuclear plant employees moral at an all time low. These are not places where you want people to work that hate their jobs.
It is just a matter of time.
We need nuclear plants but not the plant operations are being controlled by the stock price.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: zack1234 on December 02, 2016, 12:13:24 PM
Same here in the U.K.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: FLOOB on December 02, 2016, 12:20:42 PM
Time to start building liquid fluoride thorium reactors.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: Randy1 on December 02, 2016, 02:56:31 PM
In the very early days when GE was promoting their nuclear reactors, they used the sales pitch, "Our nuclear plants will make the cost of electricity too cheap to meter."
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: kappa on December 02, 2016, 05:01:07 PM
In the years to come we will have something similar to that here in the US. The nuclear plant workers I know have made note of the continuing layoffs and demand management style that has the nuclear plant employees moral at an all time low. These are not places where you want people to work that hate their jobs.
It is just a matter of time.
We need nuclear plants but not the plant operations are being controlled by the stock price.
Hardly.. You represent here the basic problem that promotes fear with nuclear generation.. No knowledge mixed with wild accusations..
Please attempt to educate yourself on the matter rather than believe assumptions from some plant worker that probably has no idea how the system operates..
Edit: My plant lays off thousands every year.. But we call it a refueling outage.. Educate yourself.
The minimum number of on-shift employees is federal law and overseen by the NRC. I guarantee you no nuke plant will continue to run with too few workers no matter what their stock prices are. If the station cannot meet minimum manning, the unit will shutdown and the NRC will take the startup switch key.. Pretty simple..
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: kappa on December 02, 2016, 05:13:58 PM
In the years to come we will have something similar to that here in the US. The nuclear plant workers I know have made note of the continuing layoffs and demand management style that has the nuclear plant employees moral at an all time low. These are not places where you want people to work that hate their jobs.
It is just a matter of time.
We need nuclear plants but not the plant operations are being controlled by the stock price.
You already have a smaller scale Chernobyl it's believed could leak worst, i read this article yesterday , they need 50 years and 110 billions to clean up. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3986750/Former-nuclear-site-Washington-state-causing-workers-develop-terminal-illnesses-won-t-cleaned
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: pembquist on December 02, 2016, 06:20:12 PM
Before this gets contentious I just wanted to say that I like to see something actually getting accomplished to solve a problem that doesn't require blowing things up and killing people. A crapton of politics must have gone into paying for that project and it is good to see that a bunch of disparate countries could come together to perform a very impressive engineering project that was necessary and expensive. Thanks for posting
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: PR3D4TOR on December 03, 2016, 12:11:57 AM
Something like Chernobyl could not happen in the west. The accident was no accident, but the inevitable result of a corrupt and inept political system. Everything about the reactor plant was characterized by ineptitude at every level, from design and construction to operation and leadership. Moscow didn't even know about the magnitude of the disaster until Sweden informed them of it. That's how clueless these people were, and how inept their system of government was.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: Ack-Ack on December 03, 2016, 12:18:36 AM
Hope the dome isn't Russian built.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: Hajo on December 03, 2016, 12:24:49 AM
On the bottom of the new Dome.
MADE IN CHINA
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: zack1234 on December 03, 2016, 02:22:52 AM
They are the equivalent of pyramids
They could not stop making pyramids as well because they were essential for society
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: Randy1 on December 03, 2016, 06:22:30 AM
Hardly.. You represent here the basic problem that promotes fear with nuclear generation.. No knowledge mixed with wild accusations..
Please attempt to educate yourself on the matter rather than believe assumptions from some plant worker that probably has no idea how the system operates..
Oh I think I know a thing or two. I retired from the nuclear plant . I was in on the licensing, design, construction and operation. Went through many refueling outages.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: zack1234 on December 03, 2016, 09:59:26 AM
Did you make lots of money?
Enriched uranium what's that for ?
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: pipz on December 03, 2016, 10:18:27 AM
Oh I think I know a thing or two. I retired from the nuclear plant . I was in on the licensing, design, construction and operation. Went through many refueling outages.
Randy is actually Jack Lemmon!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFMsnicAtiY
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: Meatwad on December 03, 2016, 11:15:26 AM
Except he didnt get shot and die at the end
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: Bodhi on December 03, 2016, 03:14:08 PM
That's a pretty neat setup!
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: MiloMorai on December 03, 2016, 03:51:28 PM
Something like Chernobyl could not happen in the west. The accident was no accident, but the inevitable result of a corrupt and inept political system. Everything about the reactor plant was characterized by ineptitude at every level, from design and construction to operation and leadership. Moscow didn't even know about the magnitude of the disaster until Sweden informed them of it. That's how clueless these people were, and how inept their system of government was.
Came very close at Three Mile Island. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: zack1234 on December 03, 2016, 05:22:49 PM
Windscale was the same in the U.K. It was bad as the commie meltdown.
This is why cancer is prevelant, the elephant in the room.
They use metal from Scapa Flow to use in devices that need non radiated metal, it has been underwater since 1919, anything after 1945 is irradiated.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: kappa on December 03, 2016, 10:05:30 PM
Oh I think I know a thing or two. I retired from the nuclear plant . I was in on the licensing, design, construction and operation. Went through many refueling outages.
Really? If you were in on any type of design process, you are very old, perhaps you can explain the fundamental difference between Russia's design and ours.. What caused their explosion and how that would not happen here?
Licensing? Operator Licensing? Where you licensed anywhere? Or do you mean facility licensing?
Operation? Operation of what?
I don't think most people understand the amount of safety systems built into these plants. Other than some type of cataclysmic event, the odds of something causing a significant event , fuel failure, are very small. Even way more so now after Fukushima. That event changed the entire industry. Plants, even with their age, are more safe now than when first built.
I know how much I get paid and it would be close to the rest that do my job. I don't buy the "plant employees moral at an all time low" bit.. Of course not everyone can be happy all the time.. But even if it where true, no one person or few persons could cause what happened at Chernobyl.
So, until you can qualify "I was in on the licensing, design, construction and operation", which in itself is pretty odd that one person would be involved with all that (its typically hard for an engineer to be on the operations side of the house), I still think you need better education on nuclear generation..
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: zack1234 on December 04, 2016, 01:59:58 AM
Your right he is wrong
Well done
Hope your pleased with yourself
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: FLOOB on December 04, 2016, 04:18:42 AM
So, until you can qualify "I was in on the licensing, design, construction and operation", which in itself is pretty odd that one person would be involved with all that (its typically hard for an engineer to be on the operations side of the house), I still think you need better education on nuclear generation..
Started as a nuclear plant design engineer. Went to the plant as a system startup engineer. Returned to design to help facility licensing answer question from the NRC to license the second unit. Back on the next unit on the startup team. Back to design as Project engineer. Next System completion manager in construction at the next plant. Then back as an engineering manger. Then there are things like ASME committees.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: icepac on December 04, 2016, 08:55:28 AM
A convective loop that can deal with a fresh scrammed reactor would minimize the risk more than anything else.
Fukushima would not have suffered the core damage with such a system but Chernobyl was a bunch of mistakes in operation combined with a design flaw.
Nothing has come close to the smoking hole made in chernobyl no matter how the wusses spin it.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: Ripsnort on December 04, 2016, 11:45:02 AM
How come other country's taxpayers had to pay for Russia's screw up?
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: kappa on December 04, 2016, 01:00:39 PM
Started as a nuclear plant design engineer. Went to the plant as a system startup engineer. Returned to design to help facility licensing answer question from the NRC to license the second unit. Back on the next unit on the startup team. Back to design as Project engineer. Next System completion manager in construction at the next plant. Then back as an engineering manger. Then there are things like ASME committees.
Nice resume! I'm certain you are aware of all the checks and balances you had to go through in order to do your job. All these jobs and many more like it pave the road to the end process which is Operations.. And the process does not change at the Operations level. Thousands of people all in concert for a final product. You being involved with Facility licensing I'm sure you're aware a station's tech specs rule the plant and not the "stock price".. I don't understand now how you made your original comment.. I fail to be able to connect the two.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: kappa on December 04, 2016, 01:40:47 PM
A convective loop that can deal with a fresh scrammed reactor would minimize the risk more than anything else.
Fukushima would not have suffered the core damage with such a system but Chernobyl was a bunch of mistakes in operation combined with a design flaw.
Nothing has come close to the smoking hole made in chernobyl no matter how the wusses spin it.
Possibly, but in the end you still need something to remove decay heat. Fukushima's worst hit was water in their fuel oil for their diesel generators.
Some of the changes the industry has seen since are kinda awesome.. They built a building at my plant that is literally bomb proof.. haha Its like ~200'W x 200'L x 60' H with like 22"-24" concrete walls.. Inside is housed many 4kv generators and diesel powered water pumps among other things for immediate response. Throughout the country are caches of similar equipment that can be anywhere in the country ready to go in 3days.. All mobilization equipment is always ready.. Kinda amazing.
Chernobyl could not happen here because the core designs are totally different. Our design needs water for positive reactivity their design needs water for negative reactivity.. One design is inherently safe, one is not.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: PR3D4TOR on December 04, 2016, 02:47:01 PM
People who compare Chernobyl to Thee Mile Island or Windscale are so far off the mark it's not even funny. Three Mile Island and Windscale were both level 5 events with some minor release of radioactivity that did not have far reaching consequences. Fukushima is the only other level 7 event, but even that massive disaster only released a fifth of the long-lived radioactive material that Chernobyl did. Unless we invent new ways of cleaning it up parts of Ukraine, Belarus and Russia will remain uninhabitable for humans practically forever.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: PR3D4TOR on December 04, 2016, 02:59:39 PM
Also the primary function of the Chernobyl plant was not civilian energy production, but plutonium production for the military. Energy production was just a secondary benefit. The dangerous design choices were made for military reasons. Leadership and management positions at the plant were chosen because of their political connections. Due to the compartmentalization of information in the Soviet Union the plant engineers only knew how their own little corner of the plant functioned, not the whole machine. Very few people had the whole picture, and none of them were there. No one had learned a thing from previous events like the level 6 Kyshtym disaster, because in the Soviet Union everything was covered up. The Chernobyl disaster could only have happened in such an Orwellian society like the Soviet Union.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: pembquist on December 04, 2016, 05:09:30 PM
Also the primary function of the Chernobyl plant was not civilian energy production, but plutonium production for the military. Energy production was just a secondary benefit. The dangerous design choices were made for military reasons. Leadership and management positions at the plant were chosen because of their political connections. Due to the compartmentalization of information in the Soviet Union the plant engineers only knew how their own little corner of the plant functioned, not the whole machine. Very few people had the whole picture, and none of them were there. No one had learned a thing from previous events like the level 6 Kyshtym disaster, because in the Soviet Union everything was covered up. The Chernobyl disaster could only have happened in such an Orwellian society like the Soviet Union.
What was Windscale build for?
The UK had a coal industry and did not need nuclear power for its energy needs.
So what was Windscale built for?
And how much did it cost to build?
We don't have any coal industry anymore the EU closed them down ........ the EU Closed down the coal mines to make us dependent on the EU.
The Germans were told to do the same, what do you think the Germans told the EU?
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: DREDIOCK on December 05, 2016, 06:18:04 AM
People who compare Chernobyl to Thee Mile Island or Windscale are so far off the mark it's not even funny. Three Mile Island and Windscale were both level 5 events with some minor release of radioactivity that did not have far reaching consequences. Fukushima is the only other level 7 event, but even that massive disaster only released a fifth of the long-lived radioactive material that Chernobyl did. Unless we invent new ways of cleaning it up parts of Ukraine, Belarus and Russia will remain uninhabitable for humans practically forever.
Not to mention that if there is ever a wildfire in the surrounding woodlands of the type we see in California. It has the potential for being a global catastrophe.
Title: Re: Chernobyl got a new cover.
Post by: Lusche on December 05, 2016, 07:39:16 AM