Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Squire on December 11, 2016, 10:17:22 PM
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This has to have its own thread and I am opting to post it here so that everybody can read it.
In frame 2 of ToG 7 G4Ms and 2 D3As were deliberately landed within 30 minutes of takeoff with no intention of participating in the fighting. This was ordered directly by the Axis frame CiC.
CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60
Strike planes must reach their assigned targets within the first hour. That's it. I am not going to play lawyer word games, add silly clarifications or special rules.
The 9 players ordered to land their planes had no fun Friday did they? The two dozen or so Allied CAP pilots had no fun Friday waiting for bombers that did not show. Thats something like 10 percent of the players right off the bat having a crappy night over this.
If you don't want to fight then why show up? really?
We need CiCs that are here to be competative, have fun, and follow the rules...and yes...have some sense or RESPONSIBILITY for the frames they lead.
That's it.
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Most excellent, Squire.
:salute
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:salute
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Strike planes must reach their assigned targets within the first hour. That's it. I am not going to play lawyer word games, add silly clarifications or special rules.
For some reason the Special Events website isn't allowing me to read the FSO Rules. I remember that credible force is used for before T + 60.
That does not mean ALL STRIKE PLANES have to reach target before T + 60. If 15 JABO fighters drop before T + 60 that satisfies the T + 60 rule. Level bombers can attack anytime after for follow up on THEIR 1st strike.
If the CM staff is changing the FSO Rules to state that all strike aircraft must hit target before T + 60, then I will be the first one to QUIT FSO!!! Why should players get into some of the most defenseless bombers and have the opposing side just tool around and wait for the easy pounce?
What happened for Frame 2 won't be repeated I hope. Please don't tie the hands of the CIC with a statement of a FSO Rule that isn't in conjunction with the other FSO Rule. 10 + years of FSO has created the Rules for various reasons.
I enjoy the strategy of FSO. Not like any frontal infantry attack from WW1 back to antiquity where the largest standing army left is victorious. I enjoyed being CIC to create deceptive tactics into the Orders with compliance to the FSO Rules.
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They are here:
http://www.ahevents.net/index.php/fso-rules (http://www.ahevents.net/index.php/fso-rules)
If for some reason it's not letting you read it, please let me know what error you are getting and I will look into it.
For some reason the Special Events website isn't allowing me to read the FSO Rules.
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That link worked thanks.
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For some reason the Special Events website isn't allowing me to read the FSO Rules. I remember that credible force is used for before T + 60.
That does not mean ALL STRIKE PLANES have to reach target before T + 60. If 15 JABO fighters drop before T + 60 that satisfies the T + 60 rule. Level bombers can attack anytime after for follow up on THEIR 1st strike.
If the CM staff is changing the FSO Rules to state that all strike aircraft must hit target before T + 60, then I will be the first one to QUIT FSO!!! Why should players get into some of the most defenseless bombers and have the opposing side just tool around and wait for the easy pounce?
What happened for Frame 2 won't be repeated I hope. Please don't tie the hands of the CIC with a statement of a FSO Rule that isn't in conjunction with the other FSO Rule. 10 + years of FSO has created the Rules for various reasons.
I enjoy the strategy of FSO. Not like any frontal infantry attack from WW1 back to antiquity where the largest standing army left is victorious. I enjoyed being CIC to create deceptive tactics into the Orders with compliance to the FSO Rules.
"Target must be hit before +60 with squadron strength force"
So a squad of 4-6 members can hit a target before T+60 as I read the rules. Doesn't say all strike fighters must hit target by then. However last frame it appears that AXIS simply ignored one target completely to save points. As an Axis pilot this month it embarrasses me that it happened.
I have flown FSO for a long time and have had more than my share of suicide missions. But I have never once tried to avoid hitting my target so I could land. I have been bounced and never made it to target but I sure as heck tried to get there. I have also flown CAP and never seen a red guy, which makes for a boring night. FSO is the main reason I came back to the game after several years off.
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That does not mean ALL STRIKE PLANES have to reach target before T + 60. If 15 JABO fighters drop before T + 60 that satisfies the T + 60 rule. Level bombers can attack anytime after for follow up on THEIR 1st strike.
I believe this was amended earlier this year to mean that all attacks must be made by T+60.
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From the FSO Rule
Targets will be attacked and defended by a credible force. Unless stated otherwise this will be a minimum of 12 players assigned per target. This can consist of a single squad or multiple squads
If in any doubt that your orders are within the rules of FSO contact the Admin CM. After initial attacks are made in compliance with the T+60 rule follow up attacks are allowed and may be conducted
Any targets not initially attacked or defended in the first hour may result in a penalty of over all awarded points or the loss of objectives. This is to insure all squads will see action within the first hour. See above "T+60" rule.
Squire's OP is stated that ALL initial strike aircraft reach their targets before T + 60.
I don't see that in above FSO Rules clearly. 2nd Rule above states that 2nd strikes are allowed after T + 60. 2nd strikes are not a FSO Rule mandatory just an option.
The way I understand the OP is that CICs are required to throw all the attack birds before T + 60 and what happens after is make it up as you go. Just to ensure all players see some action.
That means CICs receiving reports that all targets have been hit by strike AC to satisfy credible force, they are required to send in rest of attack AC that launched at Fields Open to reach targets before T + 60.
If you want to call me an attorney for the Bomber Pilots Association, then I can live with it.
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- Targets will be attacked and defended by a credible force. Unless stated otherwise this will be a minimum of 12 players assigned per target. This can consist of a single squad or multiple squads.
- All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule.
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"In frame 2 of ToG 7 G4Ms and 2 D3As were deliberately landed within 30 minutes of takeoff with no intention of participating in the fighting. This was ordered directly by the Axis frame CiC."
That's total garbage. I would've ignored that order. We all know the spirit of the rules and anyone who's done this more than a couple months has been sent on a suicide mission. It's up to all of us to have integrity. That integrity needs to kick in when someone intentionally tries to game the system.
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Does anyone really care about who wins FSO frames?
I play it because it's great fun. I love the surprise of the orders each week. It more than often throws down a challenge to take up something I usually don't fly and do good with it. I fell in love with the Yak-9T after flying it in an FSO!
IMHO events like FSO is what AH is all about, the MA is just the practice arena.
<S> to the team that brings us this enjoyment!
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I can tell you first hand I've been on several one way missions... JU88's didn't even get an egg off before all 3 of my airplanes were blown up, same with B25's got lucky 1 made it home.
Face it we all get dealt with crappy air frames now and then in the FSO all you can do it's do your best and try to get your assignment done you don't wuss out and land your airplane after 30 minutes because you don't want to get shot down..
There seems to be too many prima donnas in here that if they don't get their ride of choice then they don't want to participate properly. I work 70-hour 5 day work weeks and I look forward to Flying a FSO and look forward to combat not just flying around for an hour and a half looking for combat.
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Viper has used the wording of the rules to his side's advantage before. He has done well many times as CiC as far as understanding what he can and cannot do. Case in point:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,302674.msg3886077.html#msg3886077
But the part in red is what I believe expresses the spirit and intent concerning the T+60 rules:
Any targets not initially attacked or defended in the first hour may result in a penalty of over all awarded points or the loss of objectives. This is to insure all squads will see action within the first hour. See above "T+60" rule.
The two points seem to contradict each other, but in the first instance the bombers pressed the attack and in the second case they did not.
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Guys, a clarification here. Must be attacked doesn't mean successfully attacked.
Basically you must assign a credible force to an attack a target by T+60. You are supposed to supply the admin CM (CC him) your plans. So that he can evaluate if a credible attack was planned. We all know that things can happen and have in prior FSO events. Such as you attack force running into an enemy attack force and being gutted. Or a running battle from T+30 to to past T+60 as an attack force battles its way to target. Or being discovered very early and the defenders vectoring in planes other than the field defenders wiping out that attack force but leaving those assigned to a field to orbit the field in boredom they are defending.
When these situations arise (and they have many times over the years). The admin CM must be able to reference the original orders per a side to start the discovery of what happened. Was a credible attack planned but wiped out? Did the assign squad or squads assigned not show up or were under manned (in one instance we had a squad go roque several years past)? Was a credible attack not planned at all? Was a credible attack planned but then in event scrapped?
All of this comes down to the admin CM having to discovery to figure out what happened and why to see if it was an aberration or not. To determine if a credible attack force of at least 12 assigned (we understand that sometimes squads suddenly have low turnout) to a hit a target with a reasonable plan before T+60. If your plan is to hit the base by T+59 you run a serious risk of a penalty since basically you are gambling everything will go right for you during combat. If the CiC had 12 assigned and 6 show up for the event but the squad(s) assign showed up in full strength when assigned fighters but not in bombers then that squad could face possible actions.
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I never taken attack planes of any kind in FSO and expected to land them...nor would I ever DELIBERATELY avoid combat for sake of points of any kind....it was discussed in length a few months ago about landing bonuses and landed planes being worth points...in the back of my mind was this very thing...but I never thought someone would do it....
You cannot skew the FSO rules enough to validate taking off,circling for 30 min and landing...
The fact that it happened doesn't surprise me...loss of points should be the next step...and a warning to whoever might consider it the next time...
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Gentlemen and Lady...
I think we should give the accused an opportunity to speak. Conventional wisdom would say, fall on your sword, accept the appropriate punishment, and come back to FSO fold forgiven of the sin.
But I think we need to hear from the CIC himself now.......................... ............................. ...............
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Does anyone really care about who wins FSO frames?
I play it because it's great fun. I love the surprise of the orders each week. It more than often throws down a challenge to take up something I usually don't fly and do good with it. I fell in love with the Yak-9T after flying it in an FSO!
IMHO events like FSO is what AH is all about, the MA is just the practice arena.
<S> to the team that brings us this enjoyment!
I'm with you Vulcan. While I do want to be successful in all aspects of what we do, including getting home alive, the biggest kick I get is abusing the check 6 command on all my squaddies. :devil Everything after that is bonus! :banana: :banana: :banana:
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I'm with you Vulcan. While I do want to be successful in all aspects of what we do, including getting home alive, the biggest kick I get is abusing the check 6 command on all my squaddies. :devil Everything after that is bonus!
and HE DOES IT EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT
SALUTE
AB8AAC
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IT all boils down to "Integrity". :lipsrsealed:
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while I'm not happy about what happened, I think in the spirit of the Christmas Season, we should let this go as a lesson learned and also give viper a break. It sucks when an entire community comes after you.
I should know, it was done to JG54. JG54 didn't have the best reputation around, and we even got kicked out of the FSO. It took me 2 years to get JG54 back in.
please, lets be adult and let this go. I'm sure viper has learned his lesson and nothing further needs to be said.
Merry Christmas to all!
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Yep. :aok
while I'm not happy about what happened, I think in the spirit of the Christmas Season, we should let this go as lessoned learned and also give viper a break. it sucks when an entire community comes after you.
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while I'm not happy about what happened, I think in the spirit of the Christmas Season, we should let this go as a lesson learned and also give viper a break. It sucks when an entire community comes after you.
So be it. :salute
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I'm sure viper has learned his lesson and nothing further needs to be said.
Merry Christmas to all!
Seconded. :aok
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I'll go three bananas :banana: :banana: :banana:
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Wait, "lawyer word games?" Objection!
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"Mr. Gambini, that is a lucid, well thought out, well reasoned objection. Overruled."
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while I'm not happy about what happened, I think in the spirit of the Christmas Season, we should let this go as a lesson learned and also give viper a break. It sucks when an entire community comes after you.
I should know, it was done to JG54. JG54 didn't have the best reputation around, and we even got kicked out of the FSO. It took me 2 years to get JG54 back in.
please, lets be adult and let this go. I'm sure viper has learned his lesson and nothing further needs to be said.
Merry Christmas to all!
Sorry Bud, but Christmas or not Viper's punishment should sting a little. I've seen a player banned from FSO over arguments on the BBs. I've had my squad suspended a month from FSO for going over commitment too often. What Viper has done is FAR more egregious. Now, I don't want to see any player outright banned from FSO, or any event, but I think a solid month's suspension is fair.
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Might as well ban the whole squad
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This is different Devil...your a normally axis squad... :noid
:neener:
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I'm against that.
I think remove points awarded from buffs and causing the loss of frame 2 is enough and moving on
Might as well ban the whole squad
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I too am against any suspension against him, his squad or any other player in the FSO. take the points out and call it a day. I think the public attention is enough to prevent such a thing again. JG54 was banned because of a public bbs argument, but that doesn't make it right and who suffered for it? the players in the FSO with one less squad or one less player. with the lack of number being as it is, take the points and call it a day. once a year we'll acknowledge the "viper mission" and make sure it doesn't happen again.
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I'm against that.
I think remove points awarded from buffs and causing the loss of frame 2 is enough and moving on
I agree. Bomber landing points for those planes that failed to attack forfeited. Move on.
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I'm against that.
I think remove points awarded from buffs and causing the loss of frame 2 is enough and moving on
Yuppers. It is what it is and was what it was. There are strong opinions on this but I feel that moving forward from this point would be the best thing for everyone. No sense in beating this dead horse any longer. I think everyone deserves a chance. Future play will determine if I am in error on that point. But for now, let's get on with what we do best, fly the premier aspect of Aces High. See ya in the sky ya Martha frackers! :airplane:
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and don't fly in front of Kanth OR Banner, LOL
SALUTE
ab8aac
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and don't fly in front of Kanth OR Banner, LOL
SALUTE
ab8aac
:joystick: :airplane:
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I too am against any suspension against him, his squad or any other player in the FSO. take the points out and call it a day.
Absolutely agree. :salute
Bury the ban hammer.
A squad mate of mine was banned for taking his .45 to the rearm pad, and I boycotted in protest. What we don't need is less players.
I do agree with the concept of doing what can be done to strike targets, regardless of the plane assigned.
One option to reduce the points lost in bombers is to roll without formations (and only 1/3 the ord and defensive guns.) :bolt:
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A squad mate of mine was banned for taking his .45 to the rearm pad, and I boycotted in protest. What we don't need is less players.
First off, was he banned outright or just suspended? I highly doubt he was banned.
Second, he deserved a suspension for doing that when it was clearly against the rules - and an incredibly toolbag thing to do.
Point it, if you break the rules, suck it up and take your medicine.
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A squad mate of mine was banned for taking his .45 to the rearm pad, and I boycotted in protest.
That's what happened to me several FSOs ago. I don't know if he was the one who did it to me (shot me with his .45 as I re-armed), but it sure ruined a fun evening for me. I never bothered to look in the logs to see who it was. Still, I wouldn't want someone outright banned from FSO for it. I hope the person still is flying in FSO, I think he learned his lesson, and is prolly a better participant for it. That is my hope, anyway.