General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: BBP on December 28, 2016, 12:40:11 PM
Title: Engine Sounds
Post by: BBP on December 28, 2016, 12:40:11 PM
I don't fly the P-51 that much but my time will be much less because the engine sounds so much like my 2 cycle lawn mower. Its just AWFULL!
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: PR3D4TOR on December 28, 2016, 01:39:15 PM
In-cockpit engine noise is very different from the external noise. More mechanical and does indeed sound somewhat like a lawnmower. The pilot is shielded from some of the exhaust and propeller noise, but is effectively sitting in a metal box with the engine right in front of him. The mechanical noise becomes dominant.
https://youtu.be/v5wzI5RdAvw?t=256
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: PR3D4TOR on December 28, 2016, 01:43:59 PM
The 109 is the king of lawnmowers!
https://youtu.be/JGhMGQst4lo?t=343
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on December 28, 2016, 01:47:07 PM
They are all more, or less, the same except in external sounds (still a WiP).
https://youtu.be/BpgFjdpMsuQ?t=7m24s
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on December 28, 2016, 05:32:58 PM
In-cockpit engine noise is very different from the external noise. More mechanical and does indeed sound somewhat like a lawnmower. The pilot is shielded from some of the exhaust and propeller noise, but is effectively sitting in a metal box with the engine right in front of him. The mechanical noise becomes dominant.
https://youtu.be/v5wzI5RdAvw?t=256
I'd bet a thousand bucks it doesn't sound like a Briggs and Stratton.
I realize a T-28 isn't an inline but when you add power to that sucker it makes your teeth fillings rattle. It most certainly doesn't sound like a lawn mower.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: PR3D4TOR on December 28, 2016, 06:44:16 PM
Radials are more growly.
https://youtu.be/twRdmdPrwEw?t=169
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: PR3D4TOR on December 28, 2016, 06:47:01 PM
Spitfire:
https://youtu.be/6tPVBBp3e1A?t=190
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on December 28, 2016, 08:12:15 PM
Growly? Radials have lot more noise to be sure.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: PR3D4TOR on December 30, 2016, 12:39:42 PM
Yes growly. Deeper and more throaty. Radials typically have larger displacement pots and lower rpm, which means stronger impulses but lower frequency.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on December 30, 2016, 01:33:44 PM
In-lines don't sound like mowers.
The default engine sound for at least a couple airplanes in AH3 is justifiably criticized in my opinion.
One of my best friends flies Mustangs for a preservation group. He gave the Pony sound a wrinkled nose.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on December 30, 2016, 09:36:03 PM
And yet that's how they sound on cockpit recordings, so . . .
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: PR3D4TOR on December 30, 2016, 11:32:38 PM
Being there for real is obviously a more powerful experience. The sound vibrations affecting your whole body and sheer volume cannot be replicated by PC speakers or headsets.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on December 30, 2016, 11:39:45 PM
And yet that's how they sound on cockpit recordings, so . . .
A buddy of mine who flies the P-51B and D. An excerpt from our conversation a few months back.
Me: How would you describe the sound of a P-51 from inside the cockpit?
Him: Hmm...a cross between a continental 550 and a Merlin.
Me: So it sounds like a Merlin does from the outside a bit? And not like a lawn mower?
I figured a Cessna 414 or 421 would be closer (to a Mustang) than a Briggs and Stratton. Lol. Aces High 3 makes the Pony sound like a lawn mower I kid you not.
Him: Ha ha ha
Yea...you can hear the Merlin influence when inside. What's really cool is when you hit the starter and it feels like a truck slamming in to your airplane. It startled me the first time.
---
(The 550 is derived from a 520 which is what the 414 and 421 use. So my instincts are right.)
His opinion: AH3's P-51 sound is inaccurate.
YMMV.
I will let you know myself at some point. I'm going to get a ride in the D with him next year. (Not for free either.)
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: PR3D4TOR on December 30, 2016, 11:56:17 PM
Awesome. Let us know what you find.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on December 30, 2016, 11:59:26 PM
But hey, your friend is your friend. Go with that.
How much time do you have in P-51s? Just curious.
I will take his ears (and hundreds of Mustang hours) over any recording. I've yet to find an accurate recording taken by a handheld of any airplane that I've flown.
That said, the video sounds nothing like the game. It's much deeper. Less raspy. Has a different beat/cadence (for lack of a better word). I'd take that recording over what we have now.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on December 31, 2016, 03:45:15 PM
Neither mine, nor your friends experience in any aircraft has anything to do with it. I certainly do not trust your opinion concerning sounds in comparison to my own experience. If it were me I would record the interior of aircraft with my own equipment. I have already done this on a number of occasions. Tanks, airplanes, guns, . . . and I know why some recordings sound differently from aircraft to game. I know that most pilots in WWII fighters fly with their ears just inches from the canopy. A microphone in that situation is going to record the canopy more than it is the engine. However, neither you, your friend, or myself can tell what the airplane would sound like without that noise in close proximity to your ear. In fact, I would dispute that your friend ever heard it at all. You see, most people wear some form of hearing protection, and in that event even a microphone that is recording primarily noise interference patterns is still more accurate than what you thought you heard.
I trust my equipment and recording abilities much, much further than anyone's opinion.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on December 31, 2016, 04:21:46 PM
I have taken my headset and helmet off in every plane I've flown. It's something you do at least once if for no other reason than to experience it.
The game should sound the way our ears hear it not as some gadget that gets it wrong for having too little--or too much--fidelity.
I trust his opinion.
Call me when you've flown a Mustang and we can discuss further.
I don't intend to be baited into a Rule #4 so I am through parlaying. In any event, someone will produce a custom sound pack that will address express concerns and we can all take our pick. That's one beauty of this game.
Happy New Year. :salute
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on December 31, 2016, 08:11:38 PM
Call me when you have a valid point, as recording devices are much, much more accurate than you are claiming. In fact, at this point I'm betting that it is your audio equipment leading you to believe this. So, your argument is invalid all the way across the board.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: icepac on December 31, 2016, 08:41:37 PM
Merlin really sounds more like a ford inline six truck engine with an open and uncollected exhaust than a Z car engine but mostly because the Z engine runs upwards of 7000rpms.
Straight sixes and V12s have perfect primary and secondary balance though collection of the cylinders (or none at all) will have some effect on sound.
What most videos miss is the thunderous bottom end sound that comes from making big power that you only experience at unlimited hydroplane races of the past.
At the same RPMs but making very little power, you lose that thunder and the merlin sounds pretty sedate........largely because of a very low compression ratio.
Now prop choice and supercharger type also have an effect on aero engine sound.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on December 31, 2016, 08:53:35 PM
Call me when you have a valid point, as recording devices are much, much more accurate than you are claiming. In fact, at this point I'm betting that it is your audio equipment leading you to believe this. So, your argument is invalid all the way across the board.
You're using a second-rate video to disprove my point. So which is it?
You have never flown a Mustang. I will trust the man with hundreds of hours who says the AH3 sound is not correct.
/thread
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on December 31, 2016, 08:54:28 PM
Merlin really sounds more like a ford inline six truck engine with an open and uncollected exhaust than a Z car engine but mostly because the Z engine runs upwards of 7000rpms.
Straight sixes and V12s have perfect primary and secondary balance though collection of the cylinders (or none at all) will have some effect on sound.
What most videos miss is the thunderous bottom end sound that comes from making big power that you only experience at unlimited hydroplane races of the past.
At the same RPMs but making very little power, you lose that thunder and the merlin sounds pretty sedate........largely because of a very low compression ratio.
Now prop choice and supercharger type also have an effect on aero engine sound.
Sounds about right. Pun intended.
Happy New Year, ice.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on January 02, 2017, 03:20:36 PM
You're using a second-rate video to disprove my point. So which is it?
You have never flown a Mustang. I will trust the man with hundreds of hours who says the AH3 sound is not correct.
/thread
No, I'm using firsthand experience in recording audio. You are using anecdotal evidence to claim a superior knowledge level that you do not actually have. You also attempted to redefine logic. Good luck with that.
The video of "Lucky Lady" was recorded with a Sony NEX VG10 with a VG50 microphone which has a maximum SPL of 100, which is lower than I would prefer, but more than adequate for getting an accurate recording. Like I said, the canopy is going to cause EQ problems especially for the GoPro type cameras, but whether you "take your headgear off" or not makes no difference; it's loud in the cockpit. Is the guy a professional cameraman? No. I, and any sensible person would still put more confidence in his work than your anecdotal opinions.
That's evidence and logic in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 03, 2017, 09:17:05 AM
No, I'm using firsthand experience in recording audio. You are using anecdotal evidence to claim a superior knowledge level that you do not actually have. You also attempted to redefine logic. Good luck with that.
The video of "Lucky Lady" was recorded with a Sony NEX VG10 with a VG50 microphone which has a maximum SPL of 100, which is lower than I would prefer, but more than adequate for getting an accurate recording. Like I said, the canopy is going to cause EQ problems especially for the GoPro type cameras, but whether you "take your headgear off" or not makes no difference; it's loud in the cockpit. Is the guy a professional cameraman? No. I, and any sensible person would still put more confidence in his work than your anecdotal opinions.
That's evidence and logic in a nutshell.
No, it's your academic theory vs real world experience. I will go with experience (including over 10,000 hours of my own).
Funny enough... Your "accurate" video, if taken at face value, proves the OP's point (and mine), namely: the game sound is "off".
Irony, why are you so delicious?
Batter up!
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: bustr on January 03, 2017, 12:56:46 PM
Are you recording what the pilot hears with his head set on, or are you asking that the sound be what you hear without the headset on?
Has anyone put a pickup inside of the ear cover while it's on your head to record what you are really hearing? Are there any single engine warbird pilots who don't fly the thing without ear covers? Then back to the friend who fly's P51's, which sound condition is he describing? Also sound will be perceived as more intense in the presence of strong vibrations effecting your body. Your memory of the sound experience will be to unconsciously include that full body vibration phenomenon when you try to describe the sound.
It's very similar to the difference when you run a skill saw without shooting muffs on then put them on and run the saw again. The aviation head set has to dampen out external sound so you can understand the tower chatter from the tiny speakers in the ear pieces. Back to the question, has anyone put a pickup in an ear piece to record what the pilot really hears?
It sounds like the argument is, damned reality I want to hear what I hear when I take the head set off........
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 03, 2017, 05:55:49 PM
Are you recording what the pilot hears with his head set on, or are you asking that the sound be what you hear without the headset on?
Has anyone put a pickup inside of the ear cover while it's on your head to record what you are really hearing? Are there any single engine warbird pilots who don't fly the thing without ear covers? Then back to the friend who fly's P51's, which sound condition is he describing? Also sound will be perceived as more intense in the presence of strong vibrations effecting your body. Your memory of the sound experience will be to unconsciously include that full body vibration phenomenon when you try to describe the sound.
It's very similar to the difference when you run a skill saw without shooting muffs on then put them on and run the saw again. The aviation head set has to dampen out external sound so you can understand the tower chatter from the tiny speakers in the ear pieces. Back to the question, has anyone put a pickup in an ear piece to record what the pilot really hears?
It sounds like the argument is, damned reality I want to hear what I hear when I take the head set off........
That may be his argument. You'll have to ask him.
My contention is that either way (modeled with or without a headset) the sound needs tweaking. At a minimum the tone is off. The Mustang in the game sounds like a lawn mower. I'm simply agreeing with the OP.
I could care less honestly. As soon as a custom sound pack comes out I am replacing it. Let the "experts" keep the lawn mower sound if they want. I won't.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on January 03, 2017, 07:24:00 PM
Do you know of anyone working on a sound pack? hehe, I do.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: puller on January 03, 2017, 08:21:36 PM
Who? It doesn't really matter, though. Since there is someone else that can do this I will use the time I would have taken to put together an FMOD library and just spend time with my kids. We'll all be happier that way.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 04, 2017, 01:10:47 PM
Who? It doesn't really matter, though. Since there is someone else that can do this I will use the time I would have taken to put together an FMOD library and just spend time with my kids. We'll all be happier that way.
Works for me.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: puller on January 04, 2017, 01:14:13 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 04, 2017, 01:31:55 PM
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on January 04, 2017, 02:27:01 PM
No, it does not sound like a lawn mower. Vraciu cannot hear, does not know what a lawn mower sounds like, and knows absolutely nothing about which he is professing to be an expert.
Here is an age appropriate video proving just what I said.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvF8QF10V1M
and for the big boys in the room:
https://youtu.be/-b0lef9TyMc?t=1m50s
and for Chevy lovers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzVBpddpK2k
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 04, 2017, 04:59:01 PM
Sounds like a lawnmower in game. Everyone (including the OP, along with numerous commentators on 200) but you says so. If you played as often as you post you might be aware of that.
Maybe a hearing test is in order.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on January 04, 2017, 09:33:05 PM
That is not what they mean at all. It is what several people say, but that is merely ignorance. What they mean to say is that the realistic sound of the P-51 from the cockpit is an unexpected result. Most people think that because the Rolls Royce is so ferocious, yet a true thoroughbred, that it should sound like a race car engine at high revolutions. When they discover that not only are the revolutions low, but that the sound is not so ferocious (though still very, very loud), then they react is though the sound cannot be correct.
Rather than incorrect, the sound has shown that your friend with the P-51 experience is either very, very mistaken, or merely part of your imagination.
Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 04, 2017, 11:18:11 PM
That is not what they mean at all. It is what several people say, but that is merely ignorance. What they mean to say is that the realistic sound of the P-51 from the cockpit is an unexpected result. Most people think that because the Rolls Royce is so ferocious, yet a true thoroughbred, that it should sound like a race car engine at high revolutions. When they discover that not only are the revolutions low, but that the sound is not so ferocious (though still very, very loud), then they react is though the sound cannot be correct.
Rather than incorrect, the sound has shown that your friend with the P-51 experience is either very, very mistaken, or merely part of your imagination.
Have a nice day.
Ah, yes, the aspersions game. I remember the first time I walked on water. Try again.
It shows that your recording proves two things and you may pick one, the other, or both:
1) What the mic renders is not what the human ear hears.
2) The sound in the game does not match what the recording purports to show as "accurate".
As I correctly posited, I expect the Mustang to sound more like a 421 or 414 (hardly "ferocious") than a Briggs and Stratton. That my buddy with a decade of Mustang experience mentioned an engine that's a derivative of that used by the 414/421 shows I am dead right, as usual, when it comes to aviation-related topics. YMMV (because you live in academia and not reality).
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on January 05, 2017, 12:33:08 AM
You are the first person in the history of the world that claims that what humans use to record and playback what humans hear, does not in fact record and playback correctly. Why you continue to cite a person that does not exist is a real mystery.
You are a troll, and that's not being very nice to trolls the world over.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 05, 2017, 01:13:23 AM
You are the first person in the history of the world that claims that what humans use to record and playback what humans hear, does not in fact record and playback correctly. Why you continue to cite a person that does not exist is a real mystery.
You are a troll, and that's not being very nice to trolls the world over.
Uh................when what you RECORD on your 2nd rate equipment does not match my ears (or those with experience in the airplane) then you cannot say it is "correct".
And when you claim your recording is accurate....and said recording does not match the game....then you prove my point and that of the OP.
Are you tired of losing this argument yet?
"Troll this" and "Troll that" -- the cries of one who has lost the debate.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: bustr on January 06, 2017, 02:10:38 PM
You both have lost the debate until one of you puts a mic pickup inside the ear cup of your headset and records during a P51 ride. That is what the pilot hears in real life. Otherwise this argument is that one side wants to hear the full unfiltered majesty of the merlin engine while sitting in his cockpit playing the game. Like some players used to swap out the AH2 engine sound for their favorite metal band song.
Everybody does their ride along recording with the mic out side of their head set muffs but, what they really hear is always filtered by the head set muffs they wear so they can talk to the pilot. And the pilot wears a head set so he can talk to the tower.
It's no different than what you hear at the range with your shooting muffs on when the guy next to you cuts loose with a .300 win mag. And when you goof and have them off. Got a pressure concussion that way once from the side blast of a muzzle suppressor.
Vraciu wont concede by admitting he wants to hear an unfiltered merlin when he plays the game so chalenge won't win the argument. That's why you both loose until someone gets a recording from inside of a headset muff during a ride along. No one records what the pilot really hears do they.........
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 06, 2017, 08:10:06 PM
Don't put words in my mouth.
I don't want to hear a lawn mower. Other than that I don't give a flip.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 06, 2017, 08:15:18 PM
Oh, and if bustr wants to hear what it sounds like with a headset/helmet let him put one on.
Solved.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on January 06, 2017, 10:03:42 PM
No one records what the pilot really hears do they.........
No, but you over-thought this one. In WWII they stuffed cotton into their ears and then turned the radio-receiver up. I bet you already have cotton.
Sound depends on a pressure wave. The pressure wave would be greatly reduced inside of a helmet, and therefore there is no mic that would record very well inside of a helmet. This is also why a mic inside of the canopy does not record what you might expect (and for a few other reasons).
Any attempt to record from the cockpit is going to result in the same result and anyone like Vraciu is going to comment likewise. Just look at the situation (break it down logically, just not with Vraciu logic) and you may understand why that is, but recording under the headphones will never be the answer.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 06, 2017, 10:53:06 PM
Recording under a headphone in order to accurately duplicate engine sound is, well, silly for numerous reasons. Nevermind the minimal/non-existent hearing protection back then.
I've had devices under my headset to measure decibel levels for various studies. Even these measurements were subject to lots of variables.
Bottom line despite your protestations: in-game the Mustang cockpit sounds like a lawnmower. In real life not so much.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: PR3D4TOR on January 07, 2017, 08:48:24 AM
Depends on the lawn mower.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 07, 2017, 09:04:55 AM
Yep. While "Pretty much" leaves some latitude it confirms what *I* (along with my friend and the OP) have said. The game sound is not accurate.
Thanks for posting. :aok
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on January 07, 2017, 05:20:20 PM
Incorrect, as usual. I think if Kermit thought the recordings sounded more like a lawnmower than a P-51 he would have said so, and yet he confirmed that the recording is what he hears as the pilot. So go troll another thread and celebrate your complete and utter failure.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 07, 2017, 05:34:19 PM
Incorrect, as usual. I think if Kermit thought the recordings sounded more like a lawnmower than a P-51 he would have said so, and yet he confirmed that the recording is what he hears as the pilot. So go troll another thread and celebrate your complete and utter failure.
He said of the recording "pretty much"--hardly a resounding endorsement, nor a refutation of what I said about it. Also note, he did not comment on the game sound.
Keep trying. :aok
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on January 07, 2017, 07:15:20 PM
I will go with him over your non-existent unverified friend. 'Pretty much' obviously means something different to you, but I expected you wouldn't except it even if Kermit had said, "Yes, that's it exactly." What I get from what Kermit said is that this guy on the bbs named Vraciu just doesn't know how to accept being wrong.
You also have a strong need to have the last word. So, enjoy that.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 07, 2017, 07:32:05 PM
You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
The sound in the game is not accurate. The sound you claim to be "accurate" does not match the game. Thus, your buddy Weeks confirms both what my friend said and my continuous contention.
I just remembered a guy I ran into not too long ago who flies Jim Cavanaugh's P-51. I will consult him as well next time I stop by that neck of the woods.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: ACE on January 08, 2017, 11:50:18 AM
As someone with perfect hearing (according to my doctor :) ) the P51 does not sound like a damn lawn mower lol. Maybe something is wrong with your computer. Or maybe you have forgotten what a lawnmower sounds like?
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Chalenge on January 08, 2017, 12:54:04 PM
It's the sound everything makes when you live with the irrational fear of lawn mowers.
Or, it's from watching too many movies and becoming conditioned to believe that every high-horsepower engine has to fill the room with THX awfulness.
Title: Re: Engine Sounds
Post by: Vraciu on January 08, 2017, 02:28:07 PM
They made a movie about me based on a Stephen King novel.