Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on January 04, 2017, 01:36:09 AM
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Greebo explained this to me as best he could, however please don't blame him for anything I type that is incorrect.
If you desaturate a color it seems to flatten it using gray (?). Does this harm the accuracy of the color hue? Let's suppose I am using the color chart for yellow Med Theater bands. If I use desaturation to flatten them out then the yellow is no longer the same as the chart depicts, right? Is this tradeoff acceptable or can I do something to pull the proper color back out and still have the same effect as the desaturation process is trying to create?
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Desaturation is a quick way of toning down any colour that looks too bright and loud on a skin. Best way to think of how it works is by analysing the RGB red green and blue levels of your colours. For example the brightest possible red you can have is red=255, green=0 and blue=0. By applying desaturation to this colour the red level is decreased and the other two colours increased. At 50% desaturation the levels are red=191, green=63, blue=63 and you have a very dull red. At 100% desaturation all three colours are at 127 and what you have is a mid-grey.
At any time you can reverse this change by applying an opposite saturation effect, i.e if you desaturated 20% then resaturate 20% to get back to where you were. You can also attach a saturation adjustment layer to a layer in PSP and then just adjust the effect by using the opacity slider as for any other layer.
Applying these sorts of effects is why you should separate colours into different layers on your skin, so one layer for yellow, one for red and so on. It just makes it so much easier to adjust things later. Cramming all your markings onto one layer is not a smart thing to do. My skins have up to 100 layers arranged into about 10 groups to keep everything manageable.
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Desaturation is a quick way of toning down any colour that looks too bright and loud on a skin. Best way to think of how it works is by analysing the RGB red green and blue levels of your colours. For example the brightest possible red you can have is red=255, green=0 and blue=0. By applying desaturation to this colour the red level is decreased and the other two colours increased. At 50% desaturation the levels are red=191, green=63, blue=63 and you have a very dull red. At 100% desaturation all three colours are at 127 and what you have is a mid-grey.
At any time you can reverse this change by applying an opposite saturation effect, i.e if you desaturated 20% then resaturate 20% to get back to where you were. You can also attach a saturation adjustment layer to a layer in PSP and then just adjust the effect by using the opacity slider as for any other layer.
Applying these sorts of effects is why you should separate colours into different layers on your skin, so one layer for yellow, one for red and so on. It just makes it so much easier to adjust things later. Cramming all your markings onto one layer is not a smart thing to do. My skins have up to 100 layers arranged into about 10 groups to keep everything manageable.
I can't do 100 layers unfortunately as PSP5 only lets me see about 9 in the pulldown menu. The others disappear through the top and getting to them takes a bit of mouse-based gymnastics. :bhead
That skin you saw was my original and it was originally only one layer. I think I now have it to six or seven. I am now putting the yellow into its own layer called PAINT.
I like the effect that you showed me it's just that now when I compare the colors to the color chart it is obviously not an *exact* representation of the actual color (it definitely doesn't look as crazily stark though, which is what you were getting at). Is this basically a tradeoff because we are dealing with video graphics instead of our eyes?
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I'd suggest updating your software, as that few layers is a big handicap.
There are various reasons why the "right" colours can look wrong on a skin:
First aircraft tended to be left outside in all weathers and paints were subject to colour shift as a result, some more than others. For example the red on Japanese markings faded to a reddish-orange over time. Some aircraft were kept a lot cleaner than others as well, a layer of dirt can make a big difference to the look of a skin.
When researching colours be wary, particularly of profiles and warbirds, even some colour matching websites can be suspect. USAAF planes used well documented Federal Standard paint numbers that you can track down on the web. In fact most Western air force colours are fairly well documented, but Soviet and Japanese colours are a minefield. While there are some WW2 colour photos, particularly of US planes, the colour balance of these photos are often wrong. This site is a fairly good starting point for aircraft colours but don't treat it as gospel:
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/colorcharts.asp
A minor consideration is the scale distance effect. Imagine a landscape with green hills all the way to the horizon. The nearest hills look bright and the further ones get greyer and greyer, i.e. more desaturated. So the further away you are likely to be looking at the subject the more desaturated it should be to look right. Four engined bombers might need slightly more desaturation than small fighters since to frame a screenshot you'd need to zoom out more and your viewpoint is further away. In general though you'd only worry about this a lot if you are skinning something the size of a battleship.
Finally there is the issue of lighting effects in the game. AH3 introduced a whole load of different effects that made many of my AH2 skins look wrong to my eyes. For instance I found I needed to make the aluminium base colour I used a lot darker to prevent it looking washed out by all the lighting effects.
So in the end you may just have to adjust stuff until "that looks about right."
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Well, I have used the charts provided by others as well as those on SPS. I also have color photos of the Mustang in question. To get the bright yellow tail to match the photos it does tend to look a bit too stark.
D tail code, third from camera:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lh3rbv4sru1qz9tkeo1_500.png
The same group, different squadron:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/swissmustangs/44-13298QP-QMarie.jpg
It has a bit of gloss to it but not as much as the AH2 skin after it was converted to AH3.
So the question then becomes, can I use specularity to tone it down and preserve the color or just accept the compromise that comes with desaturating?
(I hope my questions are making sense.)
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Specularity just affects the strength of reflections on the skin. So a higher specularity might make areas of the yellow look whiter where the sun is reflecting, or bluer where the sky is reflecting. However the base colour is still the same. You should try to adjust specularity so your skin's reflections look similar to the reflections on the photo, colour is a different issue.
The yellow on the photo looks a touch more orange than the one on your skin to my eyes. The red on the photo is far less saturated than the one you used however.
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Specularity just affects the strength of reflections on the skin. So a higher specularity might make areas of the yellow look whiter where the sun is reflecting, or bluer where the sky is reflecting. However the base colour is still the same. You should try to adjust specularity so your skin's reflections look similar to the reflections on the photo, colour is a different issue.
The yellow on the photo looks a touch more orange than the one on your skin to my eyes. The red on the photo is far less saturated than the one you used however.
What you did with the red looks dead on.
I am wrestling with the yellow only because of what the color plates show us. I dunno if the photos have any fading in them or not, but they do look more orange as you said.
At the end of the day it may be a judgment call to get the yellow to mesh with the "cartoon" (as opposed to the perfectly photorealistic real world) environment of the graphics engine.
There's no way to make this look "real" and nail the color, is there?
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My adjustment of your skin was very crudely done. I desaturated the whole paint layer to get the best compromise I could. My adjusted yellow may now be too desaturated, the best compromise to get the red looking something like it should. On one of my own skins I'd have been able to desaturate the red and then add a little red to the yellow because each colour would be on its own layer.
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Got it.
So do you add the red through hue adjustment? Is that the best way?
I line select areas on layers and make adjustments that way since I cap myself at 11 layers in order to manage what I am doing. Takes a little longer.
The yellow still mergers better than mine. I just wondered if I getting it to mesh always requires a color compromise. If it does it's probably worth it I just want to be sure I am not missing something.
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I only had to compromise because I didn't want to get into editing individual colours. As everything was on one layer it was just a lot quicker for me to desaturate the whole layer. You are really making life difficult for yourself building your skins this way.
In the current version of PSP clicking on the colour on the image brings up a materials properties box which lets me adjust the RGB levels of that colour with sliders. I then use a flood fill, colour changing tool or airbrush tool to alter the colour on the image. I've no idea how you do this in PSP 5 though.
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This was my original skin. I didn't know about layers back then. Every revision I have added a layer. I've now split the yellow and red out so I can work with them individually.
I think I may have sent you the single-layer bitmap not the multi-layer psp. Can't recall. Any way I am slowly adding layers. My other Mustangs have a lot more layers now that I know how they work. Definitely helps.
Your changes still look better than the way I had it. If you had to take a guess on the yellow what would you do? Or shall I just eyeball it?
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My take on your yellow is that it needs to be a little more orange, but in the end its your skin and you need to make the choice.
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My take on your yellow is that it needs to be a little more orange, but in the end its your skin and you need to make the choice.
I trust your judgment, Sensei. :salute
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Any better? PLEASE IGNORE THE RED: I have not adjusted it yet. I know what to do because Greebo showed me so it will be fixed.
Skuzzy, I can't get your photo trick to work. It won't display. The URL doesn't point to anything. :headscratch:
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Looks good to me. :aok
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That yellow looks a lot better to me.
To get your screenshot to show, after posting right-click on the attached "mustang.jpg" file and select "copy link address". Then modify your post, click the "insert image" button, paste the linked address between the img tags and save the modified post. Like this:-
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=384183.0;attach=26378)
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Looks good to me. :aok
How's the yellow? It isn't an exact match of the color plates you all shared with me a couple years ago but it seems to mesh better with the NMF (and matches the photo above).
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That yellow looks a lot better to me.
To get your screenshot to show, after posting right-click on the attached "mustang.jpg" file and select "copy link address". Then modify your post, click the "insert image" button, paste the linked address between the img tags and save the modified post. Like this:-
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=384183.0;attach=26378)
Thanks for the help on the skin, G.
Red next. Your changes were perfect for that so I will just duplicate them.
I must be having a problem with IE since all I see on my end is a tiny black image placeholder with an x. Let me try Chrome and see if that's any different. Probably a plugin missing with IE.
:salute
EDIT IN: Yep, it's a problem with IE (go figure). Works fine on my iPad strangely enough (usually it's the other way around). I hate Microsloth.
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How's the yellow? It isn't an exact match of the color plates you all shared with me a couple years ago but it seems to mesh better with the NMF (and matches the photo above).
If you want to better match the photo you should desaturate the color you have now a bit. It's a little too bold and should be more pale. Take the shade you have now and add some gray.
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This photo is a gold mine.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Military-Aviation-9/North-American-P-51-Mustang/i-gjxKKDN/1/O/P-51%2000006%20A%20US%20Army%20Air%20Force%20North%20American%20P-51%20Mustang,%20MIss%20Ruth,%20in%20flight%20with%20three%20other%20P-51%20Mustangs,%20airplane%20picture,%20Official%20USAF%20Picture.jpg
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Military-Aviation-9/North-American-P-51-Mustang/i-gjxKKDN/1/O/P-51%2000006%20A%20US%20Army%20Air%20Force%20North%20American%20P-51%20Mustang,%20MIss%20Ruth,%20in%20flight%20with%20three%20other%20P-51%20Mustangs,%20airplane%20picture,%20Official%20USAF%20Picture.jpg)
How on earth do you duplicate that?????????
Jo-Baby is third from the camera. Do the gear doors look to have red on them????
http://www.cloud9photography.us/Military-Aviation-9/North-American-P-51-Mustang/i-B856QqL/A
Same squadron different airplane. The yellow looks pretty glossy.
http://www.cloud9photography.us/Military-Aviation-9/North-American-P-51-Mustang/i-BnrR2bk/A
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If you want the yellow to have a shinier finish to the other paint colours you need to make the yellow areas a lighter shade of grey than those other colours on the specular, power and environment maps. The bare metal of course will be much lighter still. Its then just a question of adjusting these levels until you are happy with the effect. Its useful to use the "lighting only" option in the viewer to see what is going on without the distraction of the skin itself.
There does seem to be a red area below the yellow on the gear doors. The yellow is part of the wing stripe so the question is whether there was a red stripe on the underside of the wing inboard of the yellow one or whether the red was just painted only on the gear door.
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If you want the yellow to have a shinier finish to the other paint colours you need to make the yellow areas a lighter shade of grey than those other colours on the specular, power and environment maps. The bare metal of course will be much lighter still. Its then just a question of adjusting these levels until you are happy with the effect. Its useful to use the "lighting only" option in the viewer to see what is going on without the distraction of the skin itself.
There does seem to be a red area below the yellow on the gear doors. The yellow is part of the wing stripe so the question is whether there was a red stripe on the underside of the wing inboard of the yellow one or whether the red was just painted only on the gear door.
That gear door is throwing me. I assume this is a color photo and not a retouched one. Hmmmmmmmm....... all the other photos I have don't quite give me enough of a view to know for sure.
I love the shiny metal. Your Ki-43 is similar. Seems no matter what I do the plane looks gray or white when not in direct sun.
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Specularity is a reflection of the sun so you will only see those effects from certain angles. The environmental reflections are reflections of everything around the plane so you could up those a bit to make it look less like grey paint. Otherwise all you can do is paint reflection effects on the basic skin, i.e. hint of blue on the upper surfaces, hint of brown on the lower, some white reflections in places. You need to keep this sort of thing very subtle though or it looks odd.
I'll send you my Ki-43 skin files to look at, perhaps you can learn something from them.
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Specularity is a reflection of the sun so you will only see those effects from certain angles. The environmental reflections are reflections of everything around the plane so you could up those a bit to make it look less like grey paint. Otherwise all you can do is paint reflection effects on the basic skin, i.e. hint of blue on the upper surfaces, hint of brown on the lower, some white reflections in places. You need to keep this sort of thing very subtle though or it looks odd.
I'll send you my Ki-43 skin files to look at, perhaps you can learn something from them.
Thanks, G.
So, even with AH3 skins the blues and browns are necessary for the NMF effects?
I'm gonna keep tweaking it. Maybe one of these days I'll have it right... :salute
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Not necessary, but an option if you think the skin needs it.
My bare metal skin templates were mostly done during AH2 so have those effects anyway. I haven't deleted them from the AH3 conversions but have turned those effects down in the diffuse file so the environmental file effect dominates them. So anyone not using environmental mapping still sees something but it doesn't clash noticeably with the EM when its turned on.
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Not necessary, but an option if you think the skin needs it.
My bare metal skin templates were mostly done during AH2 so have those effects anyway. I haven't deleted them from the AH3 conversions but have turned those effects down in the diffuse file so the environmental file effect dominates them. So anyone not using environmental mapping still sees something but it doesn't clash noticeably with the EM when its turned on.
The problem with EM to me is it seems rather mirror-like even when toned way down. Maybe I am doing it wrong.
I will fly your NMF planes offline and compare...
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So I posted this link that seems to show a red landing gear door. It also looks to have black stripes bordering the yellow. Am I wrong?
http://www.cloud9photography.us/Military-Aviation-9/North-American-P-51-Mustang/i-B856QqL/A
Zooming in on the photo below, does the left gear door appear to also be red?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=384183.0;attach=26482)
Then the question becomes, did it stay that way after the tail was painted all-yellow...? I'm actually going to buy the color photos listed above from the website for about $25 each just to find out.
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Looking at the B/W photo, a red door is a reasonable conclusion. It looks dark like the other red paint. Also, you know that right door is red and you can see the small plate with holes on the lower nose is red on both sides. I would not even question there being red on the left door.
as to the black striping, the color photo seems to show black stripes on the doors. The B/W photo shows there is no black on the top of the wings for the inner stripes. Either the strip was bordered with black only on the doors or just on the lower wing. It is also possible that the yellow and red bled together in the color photo. Experiment and pick whichever you like best. Remember that there are no perfectly accurate skins and that skinning is the nexus of reference, reasonable assumption, and artistic license.
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Looking at the B/W photo, a red door is a reasonable conclusion. It looks dark like the other red paint. Also, you know that right door is red and you can see the small plate with holes on the lower nose is red on both sides. I would not even question there being red on the left door.
as to the black striping, the color photo seems to show black stripes on the doors. The B/W photo shows there is no black on the top of the wings for the inner stripes. Either the strip was bordered with black only on the doors or just on the lower wing. It is also possible that the yellow and red bled together in the color photo. Experiment and pick whichever you like best. Remember that there are no perfectly accurate skins and that skinning is the nexus of reference, reasonable assumption, and artistic license.
True that. Which way would you lean? Red door with black stripes on the door only?
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True that. Which way would you lean? Red door with black stripes on the door only?
Yes.
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Yes.
Interesting ain't it?
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Interesting ain't it?
Probably to increase the contrast between the yellow and red
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Probably to increase the contrast between the yellow and red
Good point.
Am hoping when I order the prints I will be able to see it more clearly.