General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JunkyII on January 18, 2017, 01:27:38 PM
Title: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: JunkyII on January 18, 2017, 01:27:38 PM
In this video you will see a sherman run into a branch and immediately stop....then I show it from F3 mode to show you it isn't hitting the tree trunk it is hitting the branch of the tree.
First, some would say this is how it should be, but during WW2 simple modifications made it possible for them to muscle their way through much worse terrain/conditions
Example
Now if you look at the first video, I want you to notice the branches which stopped the tank dead in it's tracks....with an immediate stop....notice anything???
They are animated and blowing in the wind(in an area that doesn't have wind turned on...not a big deal ;) ) But how much force is a lets say 10 MPH gust hitting that tree with compared to a Sherman tank going 15+ MPH
common sense tells us that the force from the wind compared to the Tank is thousands of times less....
So why is it that a tank is stopped by a branch? I understand a tank hitting a trunk of a tree would stop....but the branch??? Not only does it stop....it gets stuck which can be inconvenient and not realistic at all.
(This is for all you who think I'm only griping to gripe....shame on you :old: )
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Mongoose on January 18, 2017, 11:21:59 PM
It is simply not possible to track damage to individual trees. You would need a whole server farm just for the trees. We have run (pun intended) into the limitation of the available computing power.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: OldNitro on January 19, 2017, 04:50:43 AM
Granted, I'm new around here, but this is pretty ridiculous! :frown: Jeepers, even my old "Panzer Front" game for PS2 does a far better job with the trees.
And if PS2 can do it, it doesn't require a whole lot of computing capacity.
There is also well known film of a Tiger pushing a large tree clean over, with no effort at all. I believe it was during the demonstration for Hitler. And a KV, moving at speed, hits a tree, shears it off cleanly, tree falls back on the tank and breaks in 1/2 again. Never even slowed it down!
Hopefully, someone will say they are kind of busy with the new AHIII bugs, but they will get around to fixing this tree issue in the future.
It is quite aggravating!
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Bizman on January 19, 2017, 05:36:52 AM
I suppose the problem is that aircraft should get destroyed by the trees and tanks should destroy the trees in real life but in the game we don't leave marks that would stay for years. In a campaign based tank game that would be no issue, the woods would be reset after each session. However, AH is a 24/7 game where you can start fresh independently. No need to see Nitro's tracks from yesterday, or Mongoose's plane wreck from last week...
The solution would be to set trees drive-through just as the smaller growth but would that be possible to affect tanks only, I don't know. Surface fighting with planes would get too gamey if the trees would not harm the aircraft.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: OldNitro on January 19, 2017, 05:50:32 AM
Heck man, I'm not saying you should be able to drive a tank through the forest. Or that the damage to the trees should remain perpetually. Shell craters vanish after a short time right?
But sapling trees, or tree branches, shouldn't be stopping a 30 ton tank dead in it's tracks! There has got to be some kind of happy medium here!
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: PR3D4TOR on January 19, 2017, 05:53:10 AM
Perhaps a compromise. Trees damage/destroy planes and light vehicles (like the Jeep) and slow down tanks. Trees stay up no matter what.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Bizman on January 19, 2017, 06:04:08 AM
Heck man, I'm not saying you should be able to drive a tank through the forest. Or that the damage to the trees should remain perpetually. Shell craters vanish after a short time right?
But sapling trees, or tree branches, shouldn't be stopping a 30 ton tank dead in it's tracks! There has got to be some kind of happy medium here!
Actually you should be able to drive a tank through the forest, IMO. As for the damage, AFAIK there's no damage model for the trees offered by Speedtree so penetrability seems to be the only solution. The 1944 video Junky posted shows very little damage for the hedgerow so it would not distract the immersion. So the question remains, how to make the trees penetrable for tanks only, stopping Jeeps and other lightweight vehicles and destroy planes.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: OldNitro on January 19, 2017, 06:33:15 AM
So the question remains, how to make the trees penetrable for tanks only, stopping Jeeps and other lightweight vehicles and destroy planes.
Yep, that would do nicely!
Well, ya wouldn't get far trying to bash your way through a forest in a tank before you were broken down. Fallen timber is the plague to tank tracks. But a tank should be able to wiggle in at the edges for cover and concealment without the branches stopping or ensnaring it.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: JunkyII on January 19, 2017, 06:35:57 AM
For me honestly it's not a matter of running over the entire tree....but the issue is how much you are penalized by hitting a single branch....why is that little branch able to stop my movement completely and get me stuck there trying to get out, makes no sense.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Scca on January 19, 2017, 07:05:23 AM
Some trees you can drive through the branches, but not THAT tree. Been stopped several times by a leaf from that tree.
Perhaps this should be in the "bug reports" forum, instead of here. Might get a "ok, we will fix it" or "tough cookies, stop hitting it".
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Randy1 on January 19, 2017, 07:28:19 AM
I have gotten pretty good at driving through the big trees with that branch that can catch you like some have called them magnet trees.
The new citrus trees I think are the worst of the tree magnets.
The only time I have gotten stuck and could not get out was on a steep slope, and the GV slides sideways into trees. The auto tree removal does not work well on a steep slope.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: JunkyII on January 19, 2017, 07:39:13 AM
Some trees you can drive through the branches, but not THAT tree. Been stopped several times by a leaf from that tree.
Perhaps this should be in the "bug reports" forum, instead of here. Might get a "ok, we will fix it" or "tough cookies, stop hitting it".
I put it in the discussion section because some think it's right for the game...So I wanted to discuss it to see if an actual defense for a tank getting stuck like that would actually come up.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Traveler on January 19, 2017, 07:43:56 AM
The problem is, it's always been this way and will remain so untill the game goes belly up.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Becinhu on January 19, 2017, 08:37:18 AM
Bring back the tiger flipping sheep!!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Randall172 on January 19, 2017, 09:21:10 AM
As I've said before simply create a custom tree that is designated for fields, and the normal terrain tree can be for inbetween or just add a bit for each tree (destroyed or not)
if there are a billion trees thats what 125mb (nothing in todays world)
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: MADe on January 19, 2017, 11:47:09 AM
I believe tree objects are blocks not branches. It would be quite tuff to model tree objects collision boxes the same as aircraft or GV's.
The primary game objects break apart in a specific designed way, for effect. To set up an arena with trees that have collision boxe charateristics like primary objects would create a lot of computing stress. Something has to give.
The trees are purchased items from speedtree, speedtree manufactures terrain objects for gaming purposes.
laymans pov
:salute
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Shuffler on January 19, 2017, 12:40:05 PM
I suppose the problem is that aircraft should get destroyed by the trees and tanks should destroy the trees in real life but in the game we don't leave marks that would stay for years. In a campaign based tank game that would be no issue, the woods would be reset after each session. However, AH is a 24/7 game where you can start fresh independently. No need to see Nitro's tracks from yesterday, or Mongoose's plane wreck from last week...
The solution would be to set trees drive-through just as the smaller growth but would that be possible to affect tanks only, I don't know. Surface fighting with planes would get too gamey if the trees would not harm the aircraft.
hehehe I want to see tank tracks in the dirt so I know where that little bugger went. :D
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: hitech on January 19, 2017, 01:04:42 PM
Granted, I'm new around here, but this is pretty ridiculous! :frown: Jeepers, even my old "Panzer Front" game for PS2 does a far better job with the trees.
And if PS2 can do it, it doesn't require a whole lot of computing capacity.
How big is Their world?
HiTech
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Chris79 on January 19, 2017, 01:20:58 PM
Have terrains akin to the Russian steppe or the American high plains where there are few trees. "Death solves all problems, no tree no problem".
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: redcatcherb412 on January 19, 2017, 01:32:46 PM
My oldie 1941 Ford Ferguson 9N tractor when i'm blading does get stopped by about 4inch low horizontal branches of the juniper trees in my area, but 1-3 inch side hangers typically snap clean off. It does seem tanks get stuck in the 1-2 inch branches of the evergreen type trees quite often. The new apricot/lemon groves in some maps make great hiding places, but can snag you easily. But, getting hung by a grabber waiting for it to release you under fire is no fun. The program does surprising well with some really large trunk but clear at the bottom tree groves and let you slide a tank under really large horizontal branches even with the M4 rocket rack on.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: The Fugitive on January 19, 2017, 06:47:03 PM
Its a limitation in the game due to technology.
Learn which trees you CAN cozy up to and which you cant!
Its just like the collision model in the planes. Learn not to collide and you wont get a collision. Pretty simple.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Rondar on January 19, 2017, 07:03:46 PM
Learn which trees you CAN cozy up to and which you cant!
Its just like the collision model in the planes. Learn not to collide and you wont get a collision. Pretty simple.
If you collide with a plane, you don't stay tangled up for 5 minutes until the other plane kicks you out. So to be fair. if two planes collide, they should both be stuck together until 5 minutes are up or they both hit the ground. :rofl
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: The Fugitive on January 19, 2017, 07:09:54 PM
If you collide with a plane, you don't stay tangled up for 5 minutes until the other plane kicks you out. So to be fair. if two planes collide, they should both be stuck together until 5 minutes are up or they both hit the ground. :rofl
I have only got stuck twice, both times I was free in under a minute. Since then I haven't gotten stuck at all. Works pretty good as a learning tool. :devil
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Rondar on January 19, 2017, 07:39:59 PM
Well, same here. But I feel a person should be able to put tank in reverse and just back out and not be tangled up in the first place.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: bustr on January 19, 2017, 07:48:28 PM
I thought Hitech changed this so your tank has to be something like 2\3 of the branch length in from the branch tip to stop your tank. Still the film looks like that rule doesn't apply at the elevation of your rocket pack.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: OldNitro on January 20, 2017, 07:12:44 AM
That's true enuf. In the Panzer Front game, the battle area is limited to the historical scenario. If you drive off the mapboard, everything goes blank, like floating in limbo. There isn't a whole world to populate with trees and such. But still, things have come a long way since PS2, like a new Corvette, vs a 57 Chevy.
I didn't realize that the Trees, and I assume other mundane objects, are actually generic from a third party, speedtree. Interesting! So I gather, that the trees are actually a stack of digital boxes, with boundaries that we cannot actually see in the game. Some boxes you can pass thru, and others you cannot. Ah OK! I like learning new stuff!
And I'm guessing that the digital boundaries on some of the tree boxes must be rather loose, occupying more digital space than it actually appears to our eye. So the trees are interacting with you as you pass, even when it looks like they shouldn't. That makes sense!
I'm wondering. Is there is an available image of what the tree boxes actually look like, digitally? Are those digital boxes a fixed size? How many tree types are used in the game? Which are the nastiest tank grabbers? How hard would it be to replace the worst offenders? Impossible, or a wait for AH4 kinda thing, lol?
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: save on January 20, 2017, 07:43:16 AM
Some tank sim's handle this by making dense woods impassible for tanks, brush is run-through.
Single big trees are handled as a singular obstacle for a tank for both shooting / driving though.
I like when the dense wood is impassible terrain, because it decrease boundaries a tank can pass and not.
it also is a good setup for ambushes when you are driving on the small dirt roads in dense woods, or with impassible terrain around it.
The problem IRL - if you knock a big tree it normally it falls in the direction you are traveling - you don't want to pass over a meter-thick tree bole, you can be hanging there on-top of it, or it can get stuck in the tracks.
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: puller on January 20, 2017, 07:48:36 AM
I think tigers get stuck worse than any other tank...I had a tiger stuck for 10 min the other day only to get killed right after I got loose... :bhead
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: hitech on January 20, 2017, 08:43:33 AM
That's true enuf. In the Panzer Front game, the battle area is limited to the historical scenario. If you drive off the mapboard, everything goes blank, like floating in limbo. There isn't a whole world to populate with trees and such. But still, things have come a long way since PS2, like a new Corvette, vs a 57 Chevy.
Quote
I love the but still:) I'll assum the area is less the 10 x 10 miles. So 100 sqare miles. Assuming about about 2000 trees per square mile it would have 200,000 trees max. (My real guees would be about 2 x 2 miles i.e. 8000 trees)
Now consider AH. 512 X 512 miles i.e. 252,144 are miles i.e. 524,288,000 trees max. The issue is keeping track of dead trees and the timers need to resurect them. Now if you wish to have them bent or moved so every one sees the same, the amount of data becomes huge.
I didn't realize that the Trees, and I assume other mundane objects, are actually generic from a third party, speedtree. Interesting! So I gather, that the trees are actually a stack of digital boxes, with boundaries that we cannot actually see in the game. Some boxes you can pass thru, and others you cannot. Ah OK! I like learning new stuff!
And I'm guessing that the digital boundaries on some of the tree boxes must be rather loose, occupying more digital space than it actually appears to our eye. So the trees are interacting with you as you pass, even when it looks like they shouldn't. That makes sense!
I'm wondering. Is there is an available image of what the tree boxes actually look like, digitally? Are those digital boxes a fixed size? How many tree types are used in the game? Which are the nastiest tank grabbers? How hard would it be to replace the worst offenders? Impossible, or a wait for AH4 kinda thing, lol?
This is nothing like it works.
How it basically works
Trees have 2 poly meshes both originating from a purchased mesh , then we modified it for our use, 1 you see (drawn with speed tree and in speed trees format) and 1 with less polies that you don't see in AH format that process collisions. We can simply tag any poly to collide or not to collide in different circumstances. I.E. Some may be branches, some tagged as leaves, some as bushes some as trunks.
HiTech
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: OldNitro on January 20, 2017, 02:20:12 PM
Thanks Hitech. For taking the time to type out a more detailed explanation of how the system works. Now I have a much clearer picture. So when enough polies collide you stop, OK. I do like to learn new stuff :aok
I agree that recording actual damage to each tree on that scale would be completely "unreasonable", to say the least, lol. Didn't really mean it to go that extent. The trees can stay up, lol. My only concern is how they interact with the environment/vehicle, like being able to swish thru the branches without hitting the trunk.
It is most irritating having my 43ton Panther being hung up on a twig! :rofl I will adapt tho :salute
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: Tilt on January 23, 2017, 07:11:26 AM
. We can simply tag any poly to collide or not to collide in different circumstances. I.E. Some may be branches, some tagged as leaves, some as bushes some as trunks.
HiTech
In terms of hardness they are still either collide or not collide? Could a third property (in some distant future patch) allow some stuff to pass but not others?
e.g. "heavy" tanks, shells, bombs, rockets
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: hitech on January 23, 2017, 08:26:03 AM
In terms of hardness they are still either collide or not collide? Could a third property (in some distant future patch) allow some stuff to pass but not others?
e.g. "heavy" tanks, shells, bombs, rockets
Could be done, but would require adding attributes to each weapon.
HiTech
Title: Re: Trees vs Tanks
Post by: flippz on January 23, 2017, 06:33:41 PM
I don't mind the trees stopping me, but I'm like junkyII. . I don't want a branch that my 5 yr old could tear off a tree to stop my tank. I have a video of my lvt being flipped over while navigating the small bush like plant near a base because I "hit" the bush and was trying to back up. I think weaving in and out of the trees is more real life, you are only gonna run head on into a tree so many times before you have a concusion or you destroy youre tank