General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: RODBUSTR on January 29, 2017, 11:58:40 PM
Title: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: RODBUSTR on January 29, 2017, 11:58:40 PM
readily available to see on youtube, rule # 1 do not do any aerobatics..THE WINGS WILL COME OFF......repeat no stunts....it sets definite limitations on banking, dives and speed. nufsed,
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: Tracerfi on January 30, 2017, 05:40:47 PM
someone got shot down by the A20 again
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: icepac on January 30, 2017, 06:07:48 PM
He's probably referring to the A20s that loop with full bombload.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: RODBUSTR on January 31, 2017, 01:01:28 PM
watch it it refers to any at any load, take 20 minutes and watch it
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: Vulcan on January 31, 2017, 03:29:23 PM
watch it it refers to any at any load, take 20 minutes and watch it
Doesn't mean it will fall out of the sky. It just means it's bad for the airframe. Each time you take off in AH3 you get a brand new perfectly made airframe and engine.
Same goes for planes for the Yaks, if you ran them at full power like we do the engine would die after 3 flights.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: Brooke on January 31, 2017, 04:14:55 PM
They had to make instructions that worked for the mass of pilots they had.
People in Aces High have about 1000 times more dogfighting time than the average WWII pilot, so there are things that seem fine to AH pilots that would result in a lot of casualties or wrecked equipment in WWII.
What they wanted A-20's for was bombing and attack runs, not dogfighting, and didn't want the pilots and aircraft risked on tasks that weren't at all the priority.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: Squire on January 31, 2017, 07:52:50 PM
:cry Havoc!
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: RODBUSTR on January 31, 2017, 10:25:08 PM
It doesn't matter how experienced an operator of any type of vehichle is, he or she is not going to be able to push it outside of it's designed performance envelope. it doesn't matter if it's an airplane or an automobile. It's not experience it's engineering and physics, the wing cantilever and fitting to the airframe, proper modeling and realism is what separates a game from a true simulator. one option like as in the zerstorers is while they are still around have the men and women...who flew and fought in them and against them to critique the performance of the ah planes, the women part,, there were a lot of woman pilots in the ussr.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: FLS on February 01, 2017, 03:43:48 AM
It doesn't matter how experienced an operator of any type of vehichle is, he or she is not going to be able to push it outside of it's designed performance envelope. it doesn't matter if it's an airplane or an automobile. It's not experience it's engineering and physics, the wing cantilever and fitting to the airframe, proper modeling and realism is what separates a game from a true simulator. one option like as in the zerstorers is while they are still around have the men and women...who flew and fought in them and against them to critique the performance of the ah planes, the women part,, there were a lot of woman pilots in the ussr.
You don't know what you're rambling about. What matters is the max g of the airframe and the max g of the loop. Aircraft have to be able to sustain loads from turbulance when fully loaded with bombs and fuel. When the aircraft is light you get an extra margin of safety for looping.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: save on February 01, 2017, 06:14:06 AM
A20 out-turn some fighters with full bomb load, without any structural damage done to it.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: Tracerfi on February 01, 2017, 06:18:20 AM
It doesn't matter how experienced an operator of any type of vehichle is, he or she is not going to be able to push it outside of it's designed performance envelope.
Experienced pilots don't push it past that -- that's the whole point.
Don't think that an owners manual that says "Don't do X" means that you can't do X if you know what you are doing. The world is FULL of examples of being able to do X if you know what you are doing.
The A-20 is plenty capable of aerobatics if you don't go outside the envelope (which, by the way, is a lot larger than for a Shrike Commander, say, that Bob Hoover flew aerobatics in). AH pilots have a lot of experience with staying inside the envelope. But if they push it past here and there and die, they can pop back up again, learning those limits through testing the boundary. Also, in AH, the airframe creaks if it's getting close to failure, so you can (with experience) back off appropriately and fly aerobatics.
If you got some ham-fisted noob trying to do aerobatics in the Shrike Commander (like Bob Hoover), he'd pull the wings off. Bob Hoover did enormous amounts of aerobatics in the Shrike Commander, and it has a lot smaller g tolerance than an A-20.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: Brooke on February 01, 2017, 04:32:23 PM
A20 out-turn some fighters with full bomb load, without any structural damage done to it.
No it can't. I've flown the A-20 a fair amount in dogfights, and I don't think it can outturn fighters even when the A-20 isn't carrying any bombs. If you think so, I suspect that you are looking at an unfair comparison, like situations where the A-20 has more E that it is dumping into temporary turn rate, and you are mistaking that for a situation where both planes have the same E.
The turn capability of the A-20 isn't horrible, and is great for a bomber, but it isn't in the same league as fighters.
Also, it's all about g's. An A-20 can certainly turn when carrying bombs. If that turn generates less than about 3-4 g's, then it's fine, as the airframe with bombs loaded can certainly handle some g's -- just not 6 g's with bombs.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: Serenity on February 02, 2017, 05:09:58 AM
We're published do NOT pull greater than 6.5 G below 5,000 ft... Ask me how many times we hit 7.1 this last month... just food for thought.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: colmbo on February 02, 2017, 10:52:42 AM
It doesn't matter how experienced an operator of any type of vehichle is, he or she is not going to be able to push it outside of it's designed performance envelope. it doesn't matter if it's an airplane or an automobile. It's not experience it's engineering and physics, the wing cantilever and fitting to the airframe, proper modeling and realism is what separates a game from a true simulator. one option like as in the zerstorers is while they are still around have the men and women...who flew and fought in them and against them to critique the performance of the ah planes, the women part,, there were a lot of woman pilots in the ussr.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7R7jZmliGc
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: Serenity on February 02, 2017, 02:31:45 PM
A question that has been asked by every pilot who has flown this jet. My personal answer: no one has ever said "it MUST be well-engineered, it's British!"
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: PR3D4TOR on February 02, 2017, 02:48:45 PM
The only reason I can think of is that at the same speed at lower altitudes the dynamic load on the wings just from flying straight and level is higher than at high altitude.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 02, 2017, 03:06:09 PM
IIRC, is stated in the pilot's manual that the A-20 had a tendency to enter into a nasty spin if banked past a certain degree in a turn, which is why pilots were prohibited from performing aerobatics in the Havoc.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: PR3D4TOR on February 02, 2017, 03:25:17 PM
That makes no sense at all. The plane doesn't know where the ground is. The plane only react to the forces acting upon it. There is little or no difference between flying straight and level and doing a 1 G barrel roll.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: FLS on February 02, 2017, 03:48:37 PM
Maybe they're worried about the pilot not the airframe.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 02, 2017, 05:27:43 PM
There are some interesting things in the Boston III's Pilot Operating Instructions, things like:
Tab controls are NOT to be used for maneuvering or dive recovery assistance
Bombs should not be dropped while the aircraft is at an angle of dive in excess of 20 degrees
I wonder what had changed between the Boston II and the Boston III for the RAF to add the warning not to use tab controls to assist in dive recovery when the Boston II manual states, "In a dive the aeroplane tends to become tail heavy and the trimming tabs should be used carefully to correct this."
The Boston II was also able to use its gear as dive brakes, as stated in the Boston II manual, "For speeds up to 355mph IAS, the under carriage may be lowered and used as a dive brake." That was removed in the Boston III for some reason.
Title: Re: U.S.A.A.C. TRAINING FILM #1332 " flight charictaristics of the douglas a20"
Post by: PR3D4TOR on February 02, 2017, 05:40:40 PM
In AH bombs magically spawn beneath the airplane, so we don't need such restrictions. Dive-bombing lancs FTW!