Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on February 22, 2017, 03:59:25 AM
-
I am seriously about to bash my head into the monitor...
I managed to get a handle on AH2. But this system REALLY has me at a loss...
Can anyone explain this to me? Why do I even bother with making my panels look "variegated" when they get washed out?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=385339.0;attach=26809)
CRIKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Is the top one AH2 and the bottom AH3? Or are they both AH3, one with shadows and one without?
I have a feeling the "washout" is cause by the intensity of AH3's sunlight. Its not just skins - have you noticed sunlit cumulus clouds? The detail disappears and the cloud bank becomes just a bright white mass.
I found with the P-38 and P-51 I was working on, I had to darken the metal several shades as a start. But that has drawbacks when viewing the non-sunlight side, or when the sun is behind clouds - the metal texture can then look too dark and blotchy.
I don't have a good understanding of graphics and 3D worlds and all the issues, tradeoffs, and even the correct terminology that should be used, but it seems to me like the light source for direct lighting (the sun) is far more powerful than it was in the past, and ambient lighting was either reduced or appears reduced in comparison.
A related (I think) problem I've noticed is that when I've achieved a good balance between the specularity (shininess/glare) and environmental (mirror reflections) effects in bright sunlight and my metal looks very believable to me as I pan across the skin and the sun angle changes - if I then go to the other side of the skin, the non-sunlight side, my specularity effects drop to zero and all that's left are the reflections, which makes the metal look more like glass.
I'm still early in the process and I haven't been able to experiment with the effect of Power map changes yet.
-
Yeah one is with ALL LIGHTING and one is without. Both AH3.
So the intensity is just higher... Okay.
I don't want to darken them because of the obvious drawbacks but I may have no choice.
-
If that top image is no lighting then your diffuse image is far to bright.
HiTech
-
If that top image is no lighting then your diffuse image is far to bright.
HiTech
Yes, the top image is no lighting. Are you saying I should darken the whole thing or just the NMF portions? :salute
-
The bare aluminum seems too light. It's almost like you are trying to paint the skin like you see them on the runway, or in the air, which is the incorrect approach. Aluminum is actually a fairly dark gray. It is the reflections and light that make it look lighter.
The goal is to paint the skin the actual color and let the light engine do the rest. Like painting a car. You buy the red paint and put it on the car and it may look different in the lights or in the shadows than it did when it was in the can.
-
The bare aluminum seems too light. It's almost like you are trying to paint the skin like you see them on the runway, or in the air, which is the incorrect approach. Aluminum is actually a fairly dark gray. It is the reflections and light that make it look lighter.
The goal is to paint the skin the actual color and let the light engine do the rest. Like painting a car. You buy the red paint and put it on the car and it may look different in the lights or in the shadows than it did when it was in the can.
I totally understand what you are getting at--good analogy. My skins used to be too gray. I think I overcompensated in the wrong direction. I still don't quite grasp what the Power, Spec, and Environment maps actually do. I had a good grasp of the Bump and Spec maps on the old system and how to manipulate them to get the effect I wanted (I figured it out just before AH3 came out unfortunately--day late, dollar short) but that doesn't quite translate here directly.
I can do the OD skins. That's easy. NMF...not so much.
Back to work on it. I will definitely keep trying. Thanks for the help. :salute
-
Here's my base layer. The screenshots are not exactly the same as I have tweaked some of the layers in this image.
Maybe this will give folks something to comment on as to what I am screwing up.
(And before Greebo brings it up *AGAIN* LOL...this file has 15 layers.)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=385339.0;attach=26828)
-
Have you tried adding a panel line and rivet line shading layer? I believe I told you about how to make one in the past. Make a new layer just above the noise layers. Take your airbrush tool and trace over all the panel lines and rivets with a dark brown or black color. Go heavy on the panels lines and softer over the rivets and avoid making perfectly strait lines. You are looking for random variances in waviness and thickness over a single line.
It should look like this at 100% opacity:
(http://t3chdad.com/plastic/a280.jpg)
Then gaussian blur the layer until the edges of the rivet portions can't be seen. At that point, adjust the opacity of the layer until you can just barely make out the shading.
-
I only have the highlight layer.
Let me try this technique. I'm a visual learner to be sure.
-
The bare aluminum seems too light. It's almost like you are trying to paint the skin like you see them on the runway, or in the air, which is the incorrect approach. Aluminum is actually a fairly dark gray. It is the reflections and light that make it look lighter.
The goal is to paint the skin the actual color and let the light engine do the rest. Like painting a car. You buy the red paint and put it on the car and it may look different in the lights or in the shadows than it did when it was in the can.
So, what drives the variation, the skin or the spec maps?
Could I theoretically have an all-gray base layer with a mottled spec and environment map to get good results?
-
So, what drives the variation, the skin or the spec maps?
Could I theoretically have an all-gray base layer with a mottled spec and environment map to get good results?
Not really. You still need to bake in all of your detail. I personally think it matters more on bare metal. I've been experimenting with the maps and have found a good way for getting dull metal: Medium-high Spec. Extremely low Power and Low Environment. You need a base color of a medium to dark gray/blue.
-
Not really. You still need to bake in all of your detail. I personally think it matters more on bare metal. I've been experimenting with the maps and have found a good way for getting dull metal: Medium-high Spec. Extremely low Power and Low Environment. You need a base color of a medium to dark gray/blue.
So you're gonna like....share? Duh. Lol
-
Some quick and dirty screenshots.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/ahss21_zpsubievkyx.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/ahss21_zpsubievkyx.png.html)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/ahss19_zps5aknfufm.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/ahss19_zps5aknfufm.png.html)
Base color layer is RGB 119/119/133. I made a gray and white mottle layer which lightens the total tone of the metal. I also bumped up the opacity of the panel lines and rivets to about double what I've been using for painted surfaces. My regular noise layers were reduced by 1% each. All other weathering layers are the same as with painted skins.
Metal tones in the Spec maps are as follows:
_E: 29/29/29
_P: 9/9/9
_S: 158/158/158
I still want to experiment with subtle changes in those values for individual panels and for the mottle - I figure the lighter areas should be duller.
-
My hero!!! Good stuff. :cheers:
-
That mottling is good!
-
That mottling is good!
Looking st the screen shots, you really cant see the mottle I added just for the metal. Most of the variation is from my regular methods.
Something else I thought of pertaining to your Pony skins: the silver painted parts should use a darker value on the _S map and a lighter value on the _P assuming you want glossy paint. Also the silver paint should not have any blueish tone to it.
-
Getting panels to look uneven (warpy, if you will) would require the normal map to contain the uneven heights, then matching the specular unevenness using the power map. The oxidation would be in the diffuse.
Do not try and bake lighting effects into the skin. If you do, they might look good from one direction, but then lousy from another. Besides the color, the diffuse would also contain dirt, smoke stains, and so on.
-
Skuzzy, the problem is that the normal maps struggle to smoothly render subtle details. In my first screen shot, you can see that the rivets on the front cowling are made into solid strips with hard edges and right angles in the normal map - it looks horrible. Also, because of the wash-out effect the lighting system has, baked in detail is washed out before the differences can be seen. A combination really is the best solution.
-
Skuzzy, the problem is that the normal maps struggle to smoothly render subtle details. In my first screen shot, you can see that the rivets on the front cowling are made into solid strips with hard edges and right angles in the normal map - it looks horrible. Also, because of the wash-out effect the lighting system has, baked in detail is washed out before the differences can be seen. A combination really is the best solution.
Being willing to present a bare aluminum project like that means at this point you are probably the only person who can see anything wrong with it. This 109 is in a league of it's own compared to anything else you have done. Now if you can bless Vriacu with your technique, that already good looking skin file he posted will look as good in the game as the file does in it's current 2D format.
By the way, I like the subtlety of your blue in the reflections and your rivets and panel lines have great proportions to the world's scale. I bet it looks just as good under a cloud cover.
-
Being willing to present a bare aluminum project like that means at this point you are probably the only person who can see anything wrong with it.
At first I thought I was doing something wrong, or else I would have been more vocal on this specific issue right after AH3 launched. Once I saw that Greebo's new Ki-61 and TBM skins do the same thing, I knew it was the the system that cant handle shallow indentations.
Here are more shots to illustrate the problem and the viability of maintaining baked in detail/
Wing angled to avoid reflecting light. Shows baked in detail only.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/ahss22_zpsay0ttppu.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/ahss22_zpsay0ttppu.png.html)
Wing pitched up to encourage shading and highlighting stark normal map details. A single pixel rivet projects a 5 pixel wide square that connects to the next square to create a solid stripe.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/ahss24_zpsgl7k4yax.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/ahss24_zpsgl7k4yax.png.html)
Overhead view to show more awful details. As the camera pulls away, the details become spottily drawn but no less stark.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/ahss26_zpsalqbqtdx.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/ahss26_zpsalqbqtdx.png.html)
Any skin I have done for AH3 and will do for AH3 will be sans rivet detail on the normal map.
-
Skuzzy, the problem is that the normal maps struggle to smoothly render subtle details. In my first screen shot, you can see that the rivets on the front cowling are made into solid strips with hard edges and right angles in the normal map - it looks horrible. Also, because of the wash-out effect the lighting system has, baked in detail is washed out before the differences can be seen. A combination really is the best solution.
How are you generating the normal map? Take a look at the rivets on our B29 skin. They are smooth and we have a slight dimple around them. If you are trying to edit the normal map, by hand, then you are not going to get the results you want. You need to be working with a bump map, then converting it to a normal map.
Take note of the many options available when generating the normal map. You might have to mess with it a bit to get what you want.
I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "wash-out" effect. Do you have power and environment maps? That B20 test skin I did shows many effects with the lighting you can have and how they impact the light interaction with the skin.
If you are trying to match a photograph taken in direct sunlight, with your diffuse, then you are not going to get the results you are looking for because you are painting the light interaction in the photograph, which is then going to be lit again in the game.
-
Yes, Skuzzy I'm using all of the maps. And the normal maps are being made from bump maps.
Take a look at the rivets on our B29 skin.
Looks banded to me.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/you%20were%20saying_zpsagv69v2o.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/you%20were%20saying_zpsagv69v2o.png.html)
The "wash-out" effect is what I'm seeing when the reflected light off the skin overpowers the diffuse map at the right viewing angle angle. It is more pronounced on light colors. Pay attention to what happens to the white stripes.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/ahss17_zps5qoz2byt.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/ahss17_zps5qoz2byt.png.html)
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/ahss18_zpsy32mkv2s.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/ahss18_zpsy32mkv2s.png.html)
-
I am seeing the same thing Devil. Look at my 190D9 post in the skinners forum.
-
This may be the best bare metal I've seen, Devil! Congrats!
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/ahss21_zpsubievkyx.png~original)
However its really hard to get the lighting to interact with the flat horizontal surfaces. When I get the angles on the fuselage that show very believable glare to the metal, the wings look too flat and dull and to me.
-
This may be the best bare metal I've seen, Devil! Congrats!
However its really hard to get the lighting to interact with the flat horizontal surfaces. When I get the angles on the fuselage that show very believable glare to the metal, the wings look too flat and dull and to me.
Thanks Oboe. That is why it is still important to bake in lighting effects into the diffuse map.
I am seeing the same thing Devil. Look at my 190D9 post in the skinners forum.
Where?
-
Here it is.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=385339.0;attach=26842)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=385339.0;attach=26840)
-
Fencer you need to raise the power.
HiTech
-
Fencer you need to raise the power.
HiTech
Thanks Dale, I will give it a shot.
-
Being willing to present a bare aluminum project like that means at this point you are probably the only person who can see anything wrong with it. This 109 is in a league of it's own compared to anything else you have done. Now if you can bless Vriacu with your technique, that already good looking skin file he posted will look as good in the game as the file does in it's current 2D format.
By the way, I like the subtlety of your blue in the reflections and your rivets and panel lines have great proportions to the world's scale. I bet it looks just as good under a cloud cover.
Thanks Bustr. I would love for skills like his to rub off on me but that's a miracle too far I suspect.
May just have to stick with non-NMF skins from now on.
Devil, that aluminum looks fabulous. How much of that is due to bake-in vs. spec mapping?
-
Thanks Bustr. I would love for skills like his to rub off on me but that's a miracle too far I suspect.
May just have to stick with non-NMF skins from now on.
Devil, that aluminum looks fabulous. How much of that is due to bake-in vs. spec mapping?
The good news is that the baked in detail is mostly the same as what I do on painted skins as well. I did add a layer for the aluminium tarnish(more on that later). I also added an extra layer for shading the rivets opposite the existing rivet highlight layer. I boosted the opacity on the rivet highlight, panel lines, and panel line highlight layers. On the wings, I added a layer for individual panel highlights. The normal map is the same as a painted skin. The spec map levels I laid out earlier, although I have started using pure black on the power map since I made the screen shots.
I'll put together a tutorial for the aluminum tarnish mottling later.
-
A tutorial on the aluminum would be fantastic and much appreciated, Devil. Thanks!
-
I just want to duplicate the mottling for now. Once I get that I can go back at the rivets.
I have debated trying a gray with various blots of different shades then a blur of some kind to make it look mottled.
I'm about out of ideas short of ZOOM, COPY, PASTE.
-
A tutorial on the aluminum would be fantastic and much appreciated, Devil. Thanks!
I was thinking the same, perhaps you could do a seperate thread on it Devil, it would be helpful to us lesser mortals.
Thanks.
-
I was thinking the same, perhaps you could do a seperate thread on it Devil, it would be helpful to us lesser mortals.
Thanks.
Sure.
It's will be a while though to take all of the screenshots needed.
Also note that the screenshots are from a quickly thrown together attempt at the mottling and highlights.
-
Sure.
It's will be a while though to take all of the screenshots needed.
Also note that the screenshots are from a quickly thrown together attempt at the mottling and highlights.
Excellent, and thank you in advance.
-
It would be great to have a guide.
I keep looking at the skin I posted above. It looks fine as a base file but the spec map throws it into chaos. I'm so confused.
I may have to experiment with a metal-only layer and try to add everything else to it later... seemed to work great on that 109.
:headscratch:
-
Vraciu, try a simple test make spec and power maps simply a 128 for the entire file.
And set your env about 64 for the complete file.
HiTech
-
Vraciu, try a simple test make spec and power maps simply a 128 for the entire file.
And set your env about 64 for the complete file.
HiTech
Will do, sir, and report back.
-
What do you guys think of this one? This is my bare metal P-51D base. I've still got some additional tasks and layer balancing adjustments remaining to do on the diffuse map and then I'll start in earnest with the other maps. Right now I've got it set up with fairly basic spec and power files, and minimal environment map. I think they're both a little high though - getting some washout on the tail fillet. Fencer should be happy with me since I got the wings painted. :lol I don't think I'm happy with the texture on the ailerons and flaps though.
(http://i.imgur.com/tz8UCcV.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/K7H0res.jpg)
I've stared at this skin so much I'm cross-eyed. I actually ran it out gas on this flight; the prop is windmilling.
-
What do you guys think of this one? This is my bare metal P-51D base. I've still got some additional tasks and layer balancing adjustments remaining to do on the diffuse map and then I'll start in earnest with the other maps. Right now I've got it set up with fairly basic spec and power files, and minimal environment map. I think they're both a little high though - getting some washout on the tail fillet. Fencer should be happy with me since I got the wings painted. :lol I don't think I'm happy with the texture on the ailerons and flaps though.
(http://i.imgur.com/tz8UCcV.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/K7H0res.jpg)
I've stared at this skin so much I'm cross-eyed. I actually ran it out gas on this flight; the prop is windmilling.
Yowsa!
:cheers: :aok
-
That base looks great, Oboe.
-
Very Impressive, best 51 I have seen. Thanks for painting the wings.
The flaps are aluminum like the fuselage, as I am sure you are aware of.
Didn't I send you some pics?
-
Very Impressive, best 51 I have seen. Thanks for painting the wings.
The flaps are aluminum like the fuselage, as I am sure you are aware of.
Didn't I send you some pics?
Thank you. Yes, you sent pics and they helped alot, kept me quite busy in fact - lots of detail I hadn't seen before. Thanks for those!
I do know the flaps and ailerons are bare aluminum - in fact I used same texture as I did the on fuselage. It just gets illuminated differently because of the angle difference of the light source. I can maneuver the around the plane and get it to glare very nicely when the sun angle is right, but when the sun angle is good on the fuselage, it doesn't do much for the flap and aileron surfaces. I'll try increasing the environmental map for these to see if that helps.
-
Some of the lighter metal still looks too white. Also I would tweak the national insignia a tad. But, yeah, overall that's definitely getting toward what they should look like.
-
That exhaust stack rainbow is unbelievable and the wing root fairings are drool-worthy, by the way.
-
Really nice bare metal effect Oboe. :aok
-
Very nice Oboe :aok