General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Rich46yo on March 02, 2017, 01:38:07 PM
Title: Interesting article
Post by: Rich46yo on March 02, 2017, 01:38:07 PM
I was researching the impact the Allied Bombing campaign had on Industrial production for the Luftwaffe, specifically precious metals being diverted to aircraft production from other military uses due to Hitler being so upset German cities were being targeted, and I came across this interesting article. http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/store/fw190/tactical_trials.htm (http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/store/fw190/tactical_trials.htm) I knew about the 190 being accidentally landed at Pembrey of course but I never read the actual report by the Brits who put her thru its paces.
I'd say after reading this it was the best fighter plane in the world at that time, June 1942, and a nasty surprise for anyone running into it. I guess I'll get back to what I was looking for. I knew about the Luftwaffe being forced to use most of Germany's aluminum because of the bomber war, which forced a lot of other weaponry to be made of all steel, but I'm trying to find out what other metals they were short on were diverted toward piston fighter production due to the bomber streams.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: DaveBB on March 02, 2017, 03:21:25 PM
In the Soviet trials of the Tiger II tank, they harshly criticize the armor for lacking a certain trace element. Let me see if I can find that article again.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: Devil 505 on March 02, 2017, 05:47:22 PM
I was researching the impact the Allied Bombing campaign had on Industrial production for the Luftwaffe, specifically precious metals being diverted to aircraft production from other military uses due to Hitler being so upset German cities were being targeted, and I came across this interesting article. http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/store/fw190/tactical_trials.htm (http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/store/fw190/tactical_trials.htm) I knew about the 190 being accidentally landed at Pembrey of course but I never read the actual report by the Brits who put her thru its paces.
I'd say after reading this it was the best fighter plane in the world at that time, June 1942, and a nasty surprise for anyone running into it. I guess I'll get back to what I was looking for. I knew about the Luftwaffe being forced to use most of Germany's aluminum because of the bomber war, which forced a lot of other weaponry to be made of all steel, but I'm trying to find out what other metals they were short on were diverted toward piston fighter production due to the bomber streams.
The early 190's were monsters in their time, but suffered from severe weight gain by the A-7 model. I'd love to see an A-2 or A-3 on AH to fly a lighter and better balanced 190. As for the scarcity of metals, even aviation aluminium became scarce enough that the center wing spar on the Ta-152 had to be made of steel.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: OldNitro on March 03, 2017, 08:11:31 AM
I remember reading that many of the German late war super prop planes, D9, 152, 219, were greatly hampered by laminated wood propeller blades. Because of the shortage of Aluminum.
Aluminum production plants are usually right next to the power generation centers, because of the massive amounts of electrical current needed for the refinement process. Their synthetic coal based fuel, and Buna N synthetic rubber production, gobbled up major juice too!
Switching bomber tactics to hitting the German energy sector, refineries and power plants, yielded multiple rewards. The situation went downhill REAL fast after that.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: MiloMorai on March 03, 2017, 09:42:46 AM
The Jablo props on Spitfires were made of wood.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: bozon on March 03, 2017, 12:00:16 PM
The Germans problem was that they were not using enough wood in their planes - just ask de Havilland.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: OldNitro on March 03, 2017, 12:08:11 PM
British used Aerolite adhesive, which was a Urea Formaldehyde formula. Same as what was used in the Mosquito plywood structure, they made Props with it too! Revolutionary weatherproof glue, extremely strong.
The Germans had Tego Film, which performed the same weatherproof adhesive function. Goldman AG at Wuppertal was the only supplier, until the RAF bombed it in 43.
After that, the Germans were stuck with Casein glues, which would deteriorate over time in the open atmosphere. So their laminated props would self destruct at random. Nasty!
Most of German aluminum was actually made in Norway, because they had the Hydro electric plants. NORAL and NorskHydro companies actually collaborated with the Germans in this. Germany's main bauxite sources were in Hungary and Yugoslavia. Naturally transfer by rail and ship, became more and more difficult as the war went on. Germans were so desperate for Aluminum, that crashed allied aircraft would actually be smelted down and used in the German aircraft industry.
Under conditions like that, it really amazes me how long Germany lasted.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: bozon on March 03, 2017, 01:16:32 PM
Thanks for the info OldNitro. :aok I never imagined that a post about glue could be even slightly interesting.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 03, 2017, 01:41:23 PM
The German main production fighters (109E-K, 190A,F,G, 110C-G, and 410A-B) all had metal props. The 190D and 152 were special cases since they used "bomber engines".
Zeno posted an interesting WWII recognition film of the captured RAF 190A-3 formally belonging to Oberstleutnant Armin Faber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35X6N1GJbA0
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: Rich46yo on March 03, 2017, 07:41:52 PM
I was going to say, funny they had the P47 in the 190 video because up till then The 190 was impossible to follow in a dive.
Thanks for the raw material info. The bomber campaign helped with the war in many ways. Can you imagine if we had called it off, or simply limited it to west of the Rhine in '42? Resource allocation alone with a big payoff as was the interruption of the rail system of which Germany relied heavily on.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: MiloMorai on March 04, 2017, 07:47:51 AM
Quote
The German main production fighters (109E-K, 190A,F,G, 110C-G, and 410A-B) all had metal props.
Late model 109s and 190 used wood props
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: DaveBB on March 04, 2017, 08:00:37 AM
Almost two decades ago I wrote a research paper on the Strategic Bombing Campaign. To sum the whole things in a few short sentences, it tried to find bottleneck industries to destroy to stop the German War Machine. But in reality, it wasn't until Soviet troops overran areas that these bottlenecks were the least bit disturbed.
Tactical worked. Destroy a train in the middle of nowhere carrying chromium, nickel, molybdenum, or vanadium, and it doesn't get incorporated into the metal it should. Bomb a mine or a foundry and its back up running in less than a week. Experience shows it really took infantry and tanks to shut an industry down. I was amazed that even refineries, full of explosive petroleum products, were hardly effected by high explosive bombs.
The only vehicle production totally knocked out by Strategic Bombing was the Maus. A horrific super-heavy tank of which two prototypes were made.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: OldNitro on March 04, 2017, 11:46:46 AM
I wonder, how many 109's could be made from the wreckage of one B17? 2 maybe 3? Never looked at it that way before. I bet they just loved that Primo American made Alcoa aluminum. Kinda follows other ironies of the war. Like the bomb that sank the Arizona, was likely made of American scrap iron sold to the Japanese. Or the German tanks invading Russia during Barbarossa, were likely running on Russian made Gasoline!
There is great Pics and Vid of the Red Army tanks rolling into the Refinery complex at Ploesti. There was nothing but an endless field of water filled Bomb Craters, and twisted wreckage, burned black and rusting, destroyed months earlier. The German had already pulled out their major Flak defenses, because there was nothing left to defend. Russian Marshals and Generals who came to look at the spectacle of it, were amazed at the destructive power on the allied Air Forces.
On the other hand, in Upper Silesia, they overran Panzer Factories, untouched and still operating. Freshly painted Primer Yellow Panther tanks waiting to be loaded, on Trains that never Arrived. All the management ran, left the technicians and slave laborers to surrender.
How things played out from the production angle, is an interesting topic.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: Krusty on March 04, 2017, 12:46:40 PM
Tactical worked. Destroy a train in the middle of nowhere carrying chromium, nickel, molybdenum, or vanadium, and it doesn't get incorporated into the metal it should. Bomb a mine or a foundry and its back up running in less than a week. Experience shows it really took infantry and tanks to shut an industry down. I was amazed that even refineries, full of explosive petroleum products, were hardly effected by high explosive bombs.
The only vehicle production totally knocked out by Strategic Bombing was the Maus. A horrific super-heavy tank of which two prototypes were made.
I disagree with your conclusions. There's at least one other I can think of directly killed by strategic bombing: The Ta-154. It was shaping up to be a quite powerful aircraft but destruction of its glue literally killed the plane. Replacement glues were eating the wood away so it was cancelled directly due to bombing results. There are other examples I'm sure, but I can think of that off the top of my head.
Also, one must consider what disruption means. Look at bombing RAF radar towers in the BOB. You can obliterate them but it's such basic technology and so simple a concept it's like trying to destroy production of the wheel. You might, but it's just too easy to start over again with almost no capital or no preparation. Same with refineries... What are they? Essentially just a cookpot. You cook the crude until you get different separations of different resources. You can bomb it flat, but guess what? Get a few containers together, slap a few pipes on them, and you can get it running again. Bombing refineries wasn't really as much a goal as it was destroying the reserve tanks nearby the refineries waiting to be distributed after the refinery had done its work. THAT had a very real effect on the German forces throughout the middle-to-later parts of the war. Tanks ground to a halt through lack of fuel. Jet fighters sitting dormant, unable to use their 30mms against bombers, because they just didn't have the fuel to take off. THAT was a very real effect that didn't require Soviet troops on the ground to disrupt.
By extension there are multiple other arguments to be made that show strategic disruption had a very real effect on the war.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 04, 2017, 01:49:34 PM
No. The 109K used the same VDM propeller as the 109G. The only 109 I know of that had a wood prop is the post war Avia S-199 because it used a JUMO engine. Paddle-blade style wood propellers were available for the 190A but only at the pilot's request. Typically used in the east for better low alt performance.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: Denniss on March 05, 2017, 08:14:50 AM
On the other hand, in Upper Silesia, they overran Panzer Factories, untouched and still operating. Freshly painted Primer Yellow Panther tanks waiting to be loaded, on Trains that never Arrived. All the management ran, left the technicians and slave laborers to surrender.
There was no Panther (not even tank) factory in this area although there may have been chassis/superstructue component facs there. What you might have seen was likely just a hull.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: save on March 06, 2017, 08:16:21 AM
Add to that, the 262 was hard to be successful in, when experienced 262-converted bomber pilots that flew them, where not successful at all, and novice pilots where out of question, due to the 262 high wing-loading and high closure to targets.
Only Experten fighter pilots with many combat hours proved the 262 to be a deadly weapon,
I disagree with your conclusions. There's at least one other I can think of directly killed by strategic bombing: The Ta-154. It was shaping up to be a quite powerful aircraft but destruction of its glue literally killed the plane. Replacement glues were eating the wood away so it was cancelled directly due to bombing results. There are other examples I'm sure, but I can think of that off the top of my head.
Also, one must consider what disruption means. Look at bombing RAF radar towers in the BOB. You can obliterate them but it's such basic technology and so simple a concept it's like trying to destroy production of the wheel. You might, but it's just too easy to start over again with almost no capital or no preparation. Same with refineries... What are they? Essentially just a cookpot. You cook the crude until you get different separations of different resources. You can bomb it flat, but guess what? Get a few containers together, slap a few pipes on them, and you can get it running again. Bombing refineries wasn't really as much a goal as it was destroying the reserve tanks nearby the refineries waiting to be distributed after the refinery had done its work. THAT had a very real effect on the German forces throughout the middle-to-later parts of the war. Tanks ground to a halt through lack of fuel. Jet fighters sitting dormant, unable to use their 30mms against bombers, because they just didn't have the fuel to take off. THAT was a very real effect that didn't require Soviet troops on the ground to disrupt.
By extension there are multiple other arguments to be made that show strategic disruption had a very real effect on the war.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 07, 2017, 03:04:44 PM
That is not quite correct Save. Many 262 pilots had very few kills before converting to 262s and were successful. The first jet fighter ace in history, Alfred Schreiber, had no kills prior to flying the 262. Looking at the list of 262 aces about half of them have no kills or only a handful of kills in other types.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: save on March 08, 2017, 10:48:30 AM
The FW190A9 used both steel and wood propellers, sometimes rebuilt from damaged 190a8's, almost all produced (about 900 of them) where all-weather fighters with the TS engine, many did not see any combat due to fuel shortages.
The TS engine was said to always have power on tap, compared with the A8 (resource : Focke-Wulf 190 volume 3).
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 09, 2017, 03:23:56 AM
That is not quite correct Save. Many 262 pilots had very few kills before converting to 262s and were successful. The first jet fighter ace in history, Alfred Schreiber, had no kills prior to flying the 262. Looking at the list of 262 aces about half of them have no kills or only a handful of kills in other types.
Schreiber was also a highly experienced pilot before transitioning to the Me 262.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 09, 2017, 03:31:54 AM
No air to air combat to speak of. I'm sure he could fly the 262, but that's not what we're discussing here. He was 21 at the time, not sure how experienced he could be... And he crashed it on landing in November '44 and killed himself.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: MiloMorai on March 09, 2017, 07:04:41 AM
No air to air combat to speak of. I'm sure he could fly the 262, but that's not what we're discussing here. He was 21 at the time, not sure how experienced he could be... And he crashed it on landing in November '44 and killed himself.
His wheels caught the lip of a slit trench, causing his Me 262 to cartwheel.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 09, 2017, 11:02:21 AM
In other words he missed the runway.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 09, 2017, 05:42:53 PM
No air to air combat to speak of. I'm sure he could fly the 262, but that's not what we're discussing here. He was 21 at the time, not sure how experienced he could be... And he crashed it on landing in November '44 and killed himself.
He flew with Zerstörergeschwader 26, which I believe at the time when he was with that unit it was involved in the air defense of Germany against the Allied bomber streams.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: MiloMorai on March 10, 2017, 07:10:08 AM
Possibly but could be any number of other reasons Like a blown or flat tire that caused the a/c to swerve.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 10, 2017, 02:39:41 PM
Regardless, the fact remains he crashed on landing. Point is that while Schreiber wasn't a complete greenhorn he also wasn't a "highly experienced pilot" and certainly not an experten. At this time in the war the quality of his training would also be suspect. Yet he was successful in the 262 and became the first jet ace in history.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: MiloMorai on March 10, 2017, 03:02:53 PM
Experts crashed on landing as well.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 10, 2017, 03:14:50 PM
Do you think Schreiber was an expert?
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: EagleDNY on March 13, 2017, 08:27:25 PM
Read some of the pilot reports on the 262s flight testing - it is a miracle a lot more of them didn't die. The engines had "issues" - due both to the basic early flow design and the use of cheap materials in the turbine blades. The couldn't change the design of the engines, so they documented the flaws and taught pilots how to deal with them.
Title: Re: Interesting article
Post by: Serenity on March 14, 2017, 06:17:09 AM