Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: shotgunneeley on March 06, 2017, 01:21:55 PM
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Hey guys, I'm really interested in building a rifle collection from the 3 main belligerents in WWII. So far I have a 1943 USSR Mosin Nagant and a 1945 Japanese Type 99 Arisaka. Both of these pieces I picked up from local firearm brokers, but I was eying online sources like www.gunbroker.com to look for good sales. Anybody have any suggestions or dealings with trusted online auction sites? These are the other four I'm interested in.
*British Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk I
*American Springfield 1903 Remington Model
*German Mauser K98K Carbine
*Italian Carcano Model 1938 Short Rifle
I have some reference guides to help me make some educated decisions. I intend to be the end collector, not looking to flip to other buyers.
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nagant?
Prove it!
:)
hicock45 :)
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Gunbroker is a good reference guide for pricing but I pick my WWII guns up at the gun shows. There are always a few vendors that will specialize in those pieces. You already have one of the two unicorns (type 99), the Mauser is the other one.
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Those are gunshow rifles. I mean rifles like that, ya really have to look at them in person, and then decide what the $$$ value is, to YOU. I wouldn't buy those rifles online!
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If you are looking to really get into WWII firearms i would suggest in getting a Curios and Relic FFL (I believe it is still $30).
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Look into the Civilian Marksmanship Program, and get you a Garand. No collection is complete without one!
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Those are gunshow rifles. I mean rifles like that, ya really have to look at them in person, and then decide what the $$$ value is, to YOU. I wouldn't buy those rifles online!
Yeah, guess that was also a consideration if I'd be best to hunt down and travel to an actual gun show rather than the convenience of an online site. I just wasn't sure how effective I'd be finding the right models at brick-n-mortar events near me versus online searching the entire country.
Thought hard on the Garand, but I decided to keep completely to bolt actions for this six-rifle spread.
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Every gun show I have been to has had at least one vendor with WWII firearms. Plus you can put your hands on them to inspect the piece vs relying on a picture.
This kept me from buying a type 99 that was split from forearm to the butt of the stock. I only buy if they are in firing condition.
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A buddy of mine bought 3 garands through the CMP at great prices. Too easy.
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Yeah, guess that was also a consideration if I'd be best to hunt down and travel to an actual gun show rather than the convenience of an online site. I just wasn't sure how effective I'd be finding the right models at brick-n-mortar events near me versus online searching the entire country.
I'm an old gun guy, have a pretty good collection, including some of the rifles on your list.
Online is a good place to find the "Going Rate" for these type of guns. But Prices/Quality vary WIDELY. Sadly, some people misrepresent their rifles, on quality, and originality. Screw jobs are out there, so watch out. Research is vital, to know exactly what you are looking at, and there is nothing like having it in your hands, before ya throw down the $$$. There are so many variables to consider, like do you want a well patina'ed genuine wartime piece with all original period parts as a wall hanger, or a functioning shooter?
There are a lot of "put togethers", meaning rifles rebuilt and refinished from vintage parts. Are they "Original"? NO, not exactly, but neither is the price. Their advantage, you can shoot them all you like, with no worries of damaging a genuine historic artifact. Some are very well restored using genuine vintage parts, are nice to look at, and shoot quite well. For most people, that is good enuf.
Just depends on what you are seeking. It's a fun hobby, good luck and happy gun shopping, :salute
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What OldNitro said.
Gunbroker is something I've used successfully but most for new or new oldstock rifle and pistols.
Not sure where you live, but draw a 100 mile radius of your location, then start documenting every pawn shop in your area. That's where you find the good deals (never pay their sticker price) and sometimes you'll find a gem.
Oh, and no gun thread is complete without gun porn. Here is my "Pride and Joy", manf dates of 1883 and 1916 respectively.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/1873-Springfield-Trapdoor-45/n-gxR9F/i-Q89ZvnV/1/L/i-Q89ZvnV-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Colt-1911/n-5KmD9/i-XGbt5B6/0/X2/i-XGbt5B6-X2.jpg)
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What OldNitro said.
Gunbroker is something I've used successfully but most for new or new oldstock rifle and pistols.
Not sure where you live, but draw a 100 mile radius of your location, then start documenting every pawn shop in your area. That's where you find the good deals (never pay their sticker price) and sometimes you'll find a gem.
Oh, and no gun thread is complete without gun porn. Here is my "Pride and Joy", manf dates of 1883 and 1916 respectively.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/1873-Springfield-Trapdoor-45/n-gxR9F/i-Q89ZvnV/1/L/i-Q89ZvnV-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Colt-1911/n-5KmD9/i-XGbt5B6/0/X2/i-XGbt5B6-X2.jpg)
Niceeeeee
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Went to an estate sale today with a few opd firearms for sale including a Tula Mosin-Nagant, chinese SKS, two 1980 Winchester model 94 30-30s, and some other hunting shotguns.
My biggest interest was the M91/30 Tula 1938 Mosin-Nagant with sling and matching bayonet. Early squared off nose cap, flat rear sight leaf, obscure US import serial code on the reciever underneath the bolt handle, stock looks to be in great shape. I picked it up for $325, right at my max. Will probably look to sell my 1943 Mosin-Nagant now, it was a recent import.
The SKS went for $305. I passed bidding on it, was kind of beat up and missing the bayonet - seemed like a sport shooting.
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Import marking.....as in the armory it went to?
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https://www.youtube.com/user/ForgottenWeapons
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I bought my first Mosin-Nagant about 2 years ago, a 1943 model 91/30 made at the Izhevsk arsenal. In addition to the Russian serial numbers (two Russian letters followed by 2011) on the parts and arsenal symbol on the bottom of the barrel, there is a prominent stamp reading: "PW Arms Redmond WA, M91/30 7.62x54R, Russia Ser # RMN065808". The Redmond Washington was where it entered the US as part of a bulk import shipment, from which I bought it from a local shop.
The one I bought today was a 1938 model 91/30 made at the Tula arsenal. It had all matching Russian Serial Numbers on its visible parts (CH191), but there is a less visible number on the side of the reciever underneath where the bolt handle lies when forward reading PH2379. I had assumed this to be the import mark where it was registered upon entering the US, I don't think it would have any letters if it referred to a replacement reciever - my 1943 nagant has no such mark in this spot.
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:rofl Amazes me what people will pay for an SKS these days. $300+ for the one you saw, and I have seen $400 for the Yugo versions. Just beat up old service rifles too, kinda ridiculous!
Back in 89 or 1990, I paid $89, for a NEW PRODUCTION, Norinco SKS. Another $30 for a USAmags brand steel 30rd detachable mag. And about $50 for a Ramline folding stock. A couple years ago I added a Techsight rear windage and elevation adjustable aperture sight, (big improvement). LOL, I still have it, what a great thrasher rifle! After me, my sons, my grandkids, buddies and whoever, having shot the hell out of it, it still runs perfectly, and shoots pretty decently. And it is worth more now, than it was then! Wish I had bought more of them back in the day, MAK90's for $119 too!
Never been a big Mosin fan, just too many "Foibles" to work around.
They were a good bargain at the $100 mark for a while, quite a few were sold.
Now as the old Russian storage lockers become empty, their price is going up too.
Edit: Those sealed 800rd cans of surplus 54R ammo for $60 have vanished too. My buddies that own VEPR 54R semiautos are cryin over that. Also AFAIK 54R is not produced in the US. Something to consider!
See, price vs value, is something only you yourself can judge.
Congrats, ANY gun purchase is good in my book! :aok
And at least somebody already cleaned the cosmo out of it! :banana:
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Yeah, I want to branch out and hit others on my list, but the opportunity hasn't come up yet. After I bought my Mosin yesterday, I got the contact info from a guy who was asking if I was interested in buying his type 99 arisaka with airplane sights. I said you betcha I'm interested, even though I already have a late war arisaka (without airplane sights).
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Yeah, I want to branch out and hit others on my list, but the opportunity hasn't come up yet. After I bought my Mosin yesterday, I got the contact info from a guy who was asking if I was interested in buying his type 99 arisaka with airplane sights. I said you betcha I'm interested, even though I already have a late war arisaka (without airplane sights).
Oh that's frikken excellent! :aok Monopod too?
Intact chrysanthemum, is the most desirable feature!
Gotta be careful with a "Substitute 99", some of the late war Japanese metallurgy is seriously suspect! They have been known to blow up shooting full powered ammo!
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Oh that's frikken excellent! :aok Monopod too?
Intact chrysanthemum, is the most desirable feature!
Gotta be careful with a "Substitute 99", some of the late war Japanese metallurgy is seriously suspect! They have been known to blow up shooting full powered ammo!
Don't know yet, waiting on him to send me some preliminary pictures so I can do some research before getting a hands-on look. All I know is that it is a Type 99 arisaka rifle (not sure if short or long).
Right, the one I have is a "last ditch" type 99 made at the Nagoya Arsenal and I would definitely not try to fire it. The 'mum is mostly intact, has about 4 scratches in it. Actually does have sling swivels instead of holes for a rope sling. I also have a late war Type 30 bayonet made by the Nagoya arsenal as well, blued blade, no fuller, wooden scabbard.
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In the 1950s, my dad traded his Type 99 for a toy cap gun. My grandpa brought it back from the island of Tongareva in 1944. My grandpa wasn't mad though, he didn't care much for guns after the war. But anyhow, what would a mid-war Type 99 be worth today?
My dad was smart enough to hang on to his 1838 Colt Pocket Patterson (first production revolver) and sold it for 35,000 around 2005. His grandpa had given it to him and said it would be worth something one day.
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I hope it works out well for ya Shotgun.
I don't own a Type 99, never found one that I really wanted to own, at a decent price. Every time I find a good rifle, with all the right parts and pieces, the price is too high. So I have just given up on that one.
Price vs Value, just isn't there for ME.
DaveBB, it's really hard to say what the "value" is on these old rifles, some people value a certain type of rifle higher than someone else.
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In the 1950s, my dad traded his Type 99 for a toy cap gun. My grandpa brought it back from the island of Tongareva in 1944. My grandpa wasn't mad though, he didn't care much for guns after the war. But anyhow, what would a mid-war Type 99 be worth today?
My dad was smart enough to hang on to his 1838 Colt Pocket Patterson (first production revolver) and sold it for 35,000 around 2005. His grandpa had given it to him and said it would be worth something one day.
I have been referring to my copy of the Standard Catalog of Military Firearms: the collector's price and reference guide (7th edition) by Phillip Peterson pretty heavily. I can't give any exact details, but it has been a very nice book with broad/general details for weapons of various national origin and period should you wish to order one.
Got some pictures and details back, haven't viewed it yet myself. This rifle seems to be a type 99 long rifle based on his measurements. 'Mum is about 70% ground down and there is no monopod, unfortunately, but it does come with a nice early war type 30 bayonet. From what I've seen, I'm comfortable with his asking price of $300.
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Something to remember.
The 7.7mm Type 99 rifle, was only produced with a 25.75 inch barrel. It was never produced in the Long infantry rifle, and Short cavalry carbine configurations. Even the 2 versions of the takedown "Paratrooper Rifle" had the same 25.75 barrel length.
If it has a 31.45 inch "Long Barrel"? Then it is a 6.5mm Meiji38 or Type 97 rifle!
The Japanese adopted the 7.7mm and midlength rifle concept in 1939. not all their units had been updated to the new 7.7 before the war started. So, both the Type 97, and the Type 99 served next to each other, all thru the war.
Many people get confused!
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Something to remember.
The 7.7mm Type 99 rifle, was only produced with a 25.75 inch barrel. It was never produced in the Long infantry rifle, and Short cavalry carbine configurations. Even the 2 versions of the takedown "Paratrooper Rifle" had the same 25.75 barrel length.
If it has a 31.45 inch "Long Barrel"? Then it is a 6.5mm Meiji38 or Type 97 rifle!
The Japanese adopted the 7.7mm and midlength rifle concept in 1939. not all their units had been updated to the new 7.7 before the war started. So, both the Type 97, and the Type 99 served next to each other, all thru the war.
Many people get confused!
OldNitro you might be on to something, but I'm getting conflicting data. He said the total length of his arisaka is 4'2" (5'9" with bayonet). The total length of my "last ditch" type 99 is 3'8" with a barrel length of 26". Since he didn't tell me the barrel length of his arisaka, I'm deducing that it is roughly 32" provided the two receiver and buttstock lengths are the same. In addition, the markings of the seller's rifle indicate it was manufactured by the Tokyo Kogyo company and supervised by the Nagoya arsenal. Type 30 bayonet with a hook quillon.
According to my previously mentioned source, there was a type 99 "short rifle" with a 26" barrel and a scarcer "long rifle" variation with a 31.4" barrel. The source does mention an arisaka type 97, but only as a sniper rifle. If the type 97 was indeed only configured as a sniper rifle, then it wouldn't make sense to have an anti-aircraft sight. In the source's picture, the type 97 has three Japanese "kana" characters between the mum and bolt running along (i.e. Vertical) the barrel. The seller's rifle also has three similar "kana" characters, but they are running across (i.e. Horizontal) the barrel. Edit: I think I confirmed that the symbols mean "9-9-type". Point of interest, my "last ditch" rifle has no kana markings.
Very interesting stuff for sure! I've set up the time to view and possibly buy it tomorrow afternoon - will definitely determine the caliber. Will post pictures of everything after tomorrow night.
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This IS interesting stuff... Had to dig out some books to clarify.
Military small arms of the 20th century, 1983 unabridged edition-Ian Hogg and John Weeks.
Pretty much the bible of WW2 military small arms identification.
(there are softcover editions available that are not as thorough and complete)
Also, The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Firearms-Ian Hogg.
And, the NRA gun traders guide, seventeenth edition.
I will leave out the Meiji30 (1897) because it doesn't really apply here.
The Meiji38 6.5mm was built with 2 lengths of barrel.
The variations were:
Meiji38 (1905) Infantry rifle, with 31.45" barrel.
Meiji38 (1905) Cavalry carbine, with 18.5" barrel.
Meiji44 (1911) Cavalry carbine, with 18.5" barrel, fitted with folding bayonet.
Meiji38 Sniper rifle, 6.5mm, 31.45" barrel, fitted with bipod, telescope sight
offset to the left, and turned down bolt handle.
After battle experience in Manchuria and China, the Japanese Army decided
that the 6.5mm cartridge was not lethal enough. A new 7.7mm semi rimmed
cartridge was then in use in the Type 92 machine gun. It was modified to a
rimless configuration, and redesignated the Type 99 cartridge.
The Meiji38 Sniper rifles, rechambered for this 7.7mm cartridge, were redisignated
the Type 97 (1937) Sniper rifle. Still with a 31.45" barrel.
Type 99, (1939) Infantry Rifle, 25.75" barrel. Was a Meiji38, rechambered to 7.7mm
and simplified for easier production. At this time the Japanese quit the old practice
of running 2 production lines for Infantry rifles and Cavalry carbines. Adopting the
Midlength, "Short Rifle" pattern as all the other Armies of the world had done.
So the Type 99 was never produced in a long and short variation.
Note, that none of these books list the 99 with anything other than the 25.75" barrel.
This fits exactly with what I have seen after looking at MANY Type 99 rifles.
Never seen one in anything other than the standard 25.75" barrel form.
But I have seen the 6.5mm Meiji38 in both short and long forms.
The Meiji30/Type 97 and Type 99, all served together in WW2, are very similar
to the eye, and are often confused.
Another interesting point. At the end of the war, when all the Japanese weapons
were collected in the armories, to be turned over to the US occupation forces.
The order was given to deface all the Chrysanthemum markings on the weapons.
As one of the last Imperial orders, and a final act of defiance, the armorers were
quite thorough. Using a torch to melt a puddle over them, an arc welder to weld
a bead across them, or just grind them off. It's the first thing I look for!
This is as far as my Data and Experience takes me.
Very interested to see some pics. Good luck and happy hunting, :salute
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Well I went through with the deal for both the rifle and bayonet. Here are the pictures of every period WWII firearm I have. I'm still captioning the new purchase as a "Type 99 'Long Barrel'" to differentiate it from the "Type 99 'Last Ditch Rifle'", but I'm open to interpretation. Could it be possible that the Long Barrel described in my book is the equivalent to a re-chambered type 97 from 6.5mm to 7.7mm? Both of these Arisaka rifles are 7.7mm (.303 cal). The "Long Barrel" weighs 8.6 pounds with a total length of 50 inches (barrel length 31 2/5 inches), the "Last Ditch Rifle" weighs 7.8 pounds with a total length of 44 inches (barrel length 26 inches).
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0210_zpszqwfng18.jpg)
From Left to Right: Arisaka Type 99 "Long Barrel", Arisaka Type 99 "Last Ditch Rifle", Mosin-Nagant M91/30 (1938), Mosin-Nagant M91/30 (1943), Walther P38 (1942).
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0211_zpsqayd6ze2.jpg)
Type 30 bayonet with hooked quillon and metal sheath, probably made at the Kokura arsenal. Blade is 15 1/2 inches long, handle is 4 3/8 inches long. Partnered with the Type 99 "Long Barrel".
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0230_zpsyelmwtct.jpg)
Type 30 bayonet with straight quillon and wooden sheath, made at the Nagoya Arsenal. Blade is also 15 1/2 inches long, handle is 4 3/8 inches long. Partnered with the Type 99 "Last Ditch Rifle".
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0212_zpsbyalnfts.jpg)
Type 99 "Long Barrel" muzzle. The barrel length was 31 2/5 inches.
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0220_zpsl7o0anyc.jpg)
Type 99 "Last Ditch Rifle" muzzle. The barrel length was 26 inches
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0215_zpszk1ctw9x.jpg)
Type 99 "Long Barrel" rear adjustable leaf-type "anti-aircraft" sight.
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0223_zpsxiineo7v.jpg)
Type 99 "Last Ditch Rifle" fixed "peep" sight
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0216_zpskdptqffc.jpg)
Type 99 "Long Barrel" receiver proof mark, serial number and arsenal symbol (manufactured by the Tokyo Kogyo company and probably supervised by the Kokura arsenal).
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0225_zpsckv3a2te.jpg)
Type 99 "Last Ditch Rifle" receiver proof mark, serial number and aresenal symbol (Nagoya arsenal).
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0218_zps9xhyngvq.jpg)
Type 99 "Long Barrel" 'mum (I'd say 30% intact) and kana. I believe the characters indicate it is a (9-9-type).
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0224_zpszei1ks7a.jpg)
Type 99 "Last Ditch Rifle" 'mum (I'd say 70% intact), it has no kana clearly stating its type.
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0217_zpsrlops13s.jpg)
Type 99 "Long Barrel" butt stock plate and bolt. Notice that the sling swivels are on the underside of the rifle and the bolt handle has a bulbous end.
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0227_zps01z3z24k.jpg)
Type 99 "Last Ditch Rifle". Notice there is no butt stock plate, the sling swivels are on the left-hand side of the rifle, and the bolt handle has a cylindrical end.
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(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0232_zpscy9uaboi.jpg)
M91/30 1938 muzzle and bayonet (matched to rifle)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0233_zpsyj39j0zx.jpg)
M91/30 1943 muzzle and bayonet (mismatched to rifle)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0234_zpsdwrxzqf2.jpg)
M91/30 1938 serial number and arsenal mark (Tula arsenal)
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0235_zps1tv6bljt.jpg)
M91/30 1943 serial number and arsenal mark (Izhevsk arsenal). also notice the US import stamp on the left side.
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0236_zps2ubvbsug.jpg)
M91/30 1938 receiver and bolt
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0237_zpsr5e6hob5.jpg)
M91/30 1943 receiver and bolt
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0240_zps3t1x7hsq.jpg)
M91/30 1938 butt stock. notice the pre-war metal rimmed sling holes
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0239_zps6gpgglro.jpg)
M91/30 1943 butt stock. rifles manufactured during the war lacked the metal rimmed sling holes.
(http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l575/shotgunneeley/IMG_0242_zps8nxgth4l.jpg)
Walther P38 (1942) "ac42" (1st variation).
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Yes those characters are definitely 9-9.
Nice AA sight without the arms broken off.
Looks like it might be in shootable condition too.
Well worth $300, I would have snapped it up!
Quote from the book when addressing the new 7.7 rimless cartridge:
"A modified form of the Meiji38 rifle was introduced to accompany it."
Might be what you have here, with the 99 marking referring to the new cartridge.
And that would account for the longer barrel too.
(being unusual makes it even better)
I guess the books need to be updated, as the proof is always in the puddin.
Have you found anything that looks like a specific production date?
Japanese marking system is hard to decipher, but it would be interesting to know.
WTG man, looks like a score to me :aok
(How the hell do you post pics on this BB?)
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Gun porn! Thanks !
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Yeah, you gotta get a Garand. Hopefully South Korea will be allowed to repatriate theirs back to the USA soon.
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(How the hell do you post pics on this BB?)
Create an account with an online image hosting website, I use Photobucket. Upload your
pictures and copy the direct link under the sharing tab. Paste the link into the forum message here between the "insert image" code provided by the icon.
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Damn, wanted to post some Garand porn.
Man, that's a lot of trouble just to post a few lousy pics. :frown: