Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: lyric1 on March 07, 2017, 04:23:40 AM
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Interesting read on new facts that have come to light in Japan about the Kamikazes.
http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=17054.msg119414;boardseen#new
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Gibberish
The Japanese had no interest in surrender.
Another WWII myth :old:
Even when the War Crimminal Hirohito told them to surrender a sizeable part of the military were not accepting surrender, they even tried to kidnap Hirohito.
Imagine being THERE when they signed the unconditional surrender.
The Japanese got of lightly considering THEIR behaviour.
The US saved the world from tyranny :salute
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I don't like the metaphor "bargaining chip", as it has no basis in reality. There is literally no such thing as a bargaining chip.
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What word or phrase do you use to convey the meaning of bargaining chip?
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It was produced by NHK and I've been watching the NHK channel aired here in California for several years now. Many of their specials like this are to some degree trying to shine a new light on Japanese history during WW2 because Japan is now a major investor in Pacific rim countries and Indian Ocean region countries that Japan once conquered. They are also trying to sanitize and make themselves look like victims of the US in concert with changing their constitution to allow the JDF a more aggressive combat role overseas. Since Abe has been Prime Minister, there has been a general effort by the Japanese media to sanitize Japan's 20th century history as the 2020 Olympics is getting near and tourism to Japan has been on a steady growth cycle.
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Not an expert on the field but i would say that the "Death before dishonor" mentality that the Japanese had during ww2 combined with a hopeless military situation was the main reason for using kamikazes. A Japanese pilot's chance to survive an attack on an american carrier group was pretty much zero regardless of tactic and the Kamikaze at least had a slight chance of doing some damage..
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They used the same tactics that Isis uses today. Nothing different.
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The Japanese Surrender technically wasn't unconditional. They wanted to keep their Emperor, and they got to keep their Emperor. Sure, it worked out in favor for the U.S. too.
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They make cars in Japan and none in Detroit :old:
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Well, the Kamikaze could be viewed as a "Bargaining Chip", in the same way their Meat Grinder tactics were used in the island war.
The last time the Japanese tried to engage US forces in pitched battle was in the Marianas. As we all know, they were defeated disastrously. After that, Tojo's Government was dismissed, and the Japanese started to look for a way out, before the American Juggernaut landed on their own doorstep. (Leyte Gulf was not a pitched battle, it was a naval Kamikaze style sacrificial attack. That almost worked.)
At that point, the Japanese came up with a 2 part plan.
Japanese tactics were changed. The Air and Naval forces, took to the kamikaze ethos, and the Army went underground. The whole point being, to cause SO MANY casualties, that the American would lose heart, and decide that total victory was not worth the cost in blood. At the same time, peace feelers were being sent out by way of Russia, Geneva, Intl Red Cross, etc, trying to draw the US into negotiations. These attempts failed.
So yes, in that way, the Kamikaze, and the Meat Grinder Army tactics, WERE a bargaining chip! And it worked, somewhat. America WAS becoming weary of the casualties lists, growing ever larger the closer we got to Japan. The Truman Admin knew this from the polls, that Americans were growing weary of the War. Peleliu, Iwo, and Okinawa, were a dark sign of what was to come. And at that point, to all practical purposes, Japan was already defeated. So, people in the US government were asking themselves, WHO would take responsibility for the virtual extermination of the Japanese people, and American casualty lists, in the millions?
So the question became, was it worth ALL THAT AMERICAN BLOOD, to uphold Roosevelt's demand for Unconditional Surrender? Luckily the A-Bomb gave us an alternative!
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There was no bargaining chip the war against the Japanese was savage from the beginning.
There was no tactic of being savage this was how the JAPANESE war was fought from the 1930's onwards.
The Japanese committed war crime in China that they still refuse to admit to today, this was the NATURE of their culture, this MYTH of honour.
This is the same for the Germans they were savages, if the war had continued in Europe the Allies would have become as harsh as the Germans.
Albert Speer said if the British had carried on destroying German cities like Dresden the war would have ended sooner, the British as always to soft for their own good.
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They used the same tactics that Isis uses today. Nothing different.
Everything different, except the fact both died in the end on purpose. ISIS is a criminal organization. The Japanese pilots were soldiers of a constituted military service attacking military targets in time of war. The Japanese didnt blow up little kids or run them over with trucks.
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The Japanese didnt blow up little kids or run them over with trucks.
Clearly you have not read about Nanking.
- oldman
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Clearly you have not read about Nanking.
- oldman
Beware going down the rabbit's hole of "who committed what atrocity." Nobody comes out clean.
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Clearly you have not read about Nanking.
- oldman
Clearly you stopped talking about Kamikaze attacks. We incinerated tens of thousands of civilians at a time in Bombing attacks, they werent Kamikaze attacks either. The thread was a pretty narrow one, dont drift.
The War vs Japan was one of two actual Nations that declared war on each other. ISIS is not a nation. The implication was the Divine Wind attacks were like ISIS attacks but they werent. The Kamikaze attacks were strategically sound operations by one uniformed military service against another and they did have some success only not what the Japanese wanted.
I think they were the final straw, as was Okinawa, that the atomic bomb must be used as soon as it was ready.
BTW peace with Japan WAS a series of bargains negotiated by MacArthur and Hirohito's Govt. , most of all Kōichi Kido the Lord Privy Seal. Hirohito and his Uncle Prince Yasuhiko Asaka, who was in command at Nanking, never spent a day in jail tho both were guilty as hell of war crimes. MacArthur had an impossible task of getting Japan settled and his new Constitution accepted as quickly as possible and he knew he couldn't do it without the Emperor's assistance.
So there were some show trials, some Japanese Leaders were hung like Tojo. Kido himself took the heat for Hirohito and caught a life sentence for giving him bad advice, even tho he was the most anti-war of Hirohito's advisors. He ended up serving only six years of the sentence. Japan was quickly rebuilt and became the front lines in the new war, The Cold War, and the rest is history.
Im just saying I'd call the Kamikaze attacks more like standard military Ops then terror attacks. Even the Germans would ram fighters into bombers. Many brave Americans chose death instead of surrender. And the Kamikaze attacks did have a legitimate strategic aim they came fairly close to achieving.
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People forget how close the Soviets were to invading Japan, the southern tip of the Kurile Islands is ~25 miles from Japan with major ports being ~30 miles from each other.
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People forget how close the Soviets were to invading Japan, the southern tip of the Kurile Islands is ~25 miles from Japan with major ports being ~30 miles from each other.
I always wondered about that. Do you have any material on actual deployments and invasion plans? Ive heard so much about the Hokkaido invasion threat but they would have been violating the Potsdam conference agreements at a time maybe it would not have been to smart to. Grabbing land in Manchuria I could see but invading Japan and inviting a conflict with America??? I always wondered how concrete this plan actually was?
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People forget how close the Soviets were to invading Japan, the southern tip of the Kurile Islands is ~25 miles from Japan with major ports being ~30 miles from each other.
In fact, there are many historians who think that's why we dropped the second bomb so soon after the first; not so much to influence the Japanese as the Soviets.
- oldman
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The Japanese pilots were soldiers of a constituted military service attacking military targets in time of war. The Japanese didnt blow up little kids or run them over with trucks.
The kamikazees didn't anyway.
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The Japanese used shovels and bayonets on the kids instead in China :old: